Sciencemadness Discussion Board

2,4-Dinitrophenol

NotMyForte - 7-12-2010 at 12:05

Hi, I am to be burtally honest here; I am here to question some people who have alot more knolledge than myself for means of harm reduction. I have used 2,4-Dinitrophenol in the past as a fat burner, I know it isn't very safe but i am able to purchase it now for R&D purposes only, thats where you experts come in. Now, i am no chemist at all, But what are the legit uses for the 2,4-Dinitrophenol that i can say i will be using it for? Also, The chemical i can get is described as "2,4-Dinitrophenol, 97%, stab. with 30-35% water" -- So can is there a way i can dry it out and isolate the DNP? Any help will be greatly appreciated and will help in my saftey. thank You

hissingnoise - 7-12-2010 at 12:22

Are you not concerned about the long-term consequences of what you're doing?
Surely there are better ways to lose weight . . . ?
Anyway FWIW, DNP is now on sale as a fat burner!

ScienceSquirrel - 7-12-2010 at 13:00

<RANT>
Given the contents of this article on Wikipedia that is referenced to a lot of reputable sources I would not swallow 2,4-Dinitrophenol if you paid me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-Dinitrophenol
There seem to be too many people who want to take butryolactone sold to clean alloy wheels, trichloroacetic acid sold as an industrial cleaner, sodium chlorite sold as a paper bleach, hydrogen peroxide sold for sterilising food machinery and more to cure cancer, AIDS, diabetes, warts, toothache, terminal stupidity or to win a Darwin Award. :D
Some of these chemicals come from God alone knows where often by black channels and are sold by complete tossers who do not care about your health, besides you would have to be a nut to drink food grade hydrogen peroxide even from a reputable supplier.
One of these days there is going to be a major incident when a load of something horribly toxic like thallium acetate makes its way into a batch of vitamin pills.
It is stabilised with water for a very good reason, when dry it can explode. Take it from me losing both your arms will make you a lot lighter! :o

</RANT>

crazedguy - 7-12-2010 at 15:55

your joking right?
I wouldn't eat that.

[Edited on 7-12-2010 by crazedguy]

Ozone - 7-12-2010 at 17:02

NOT ADVISABLE FOR CONSUMPTION!

From older posts (this was with 2,4-Dinitro-6-sec-butylphenol, aka. 2-Sec-butyl-4,6-dinitrophenol):

"Dinitrophenols are nasty. I discovered once that they will penetrate nitrile gloves effortlessly leading to yellow fingers, raging migrain, profuse sweating, rapid heartbeat, and extreme fear. Lucky for me, it was sublethal, but decoupling electron transport sucks. It turns out that the symptoms I had reflected a dose that was very close to lethal. In this case, these are toxic not only at low dose, but quickly, and they are transdermal. (DO NOT HANDLE THESE COMPOUNDS WITH NITRILE GLOVES)."

and:

"Dinitrophenol was also used in the 1930's as a weight loss drug...problem was, people would go off of the drug and continue losing weight..."

I have used it for:

1) polymerization inhibitor/retarder
2) to make DNPO, a chemiluminescent oxalate ester with very fast kinetics.
3) herbicide/pesticide, now banned, because it killed people.

regards,

O3



[Edited on 8-12-2010 by Ozone]

smuv - 7-12-2010 at 21:49

That other 3% is probably other isomers of dinitrophenol, No idea their toxicity. Understand that you will be taking 30% less than what you expect because the stuff is inhibited with water.

It is dangerous, but so is being overweight. Just make sure this is your best option.

Good Luck.

[Edited on 12-8-2010 by smuv]

ScienceSquirrel - 8-12-2010 at 03:39

I have a feeling that some of the people who take this are not overweight.
They are body builders who want to have very high muscle definition and that requires minimal body fat.

Here is a typical user page;

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/bach/dnp.htm

[Edited on 8-12-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]

Ephoton - 8-12-2010 at 03:55

I dont think I would classify this one as a drug my self.
more a reagent :)

can buy as an rc?
man that must be costly.

I didont think phenols were that good for us to be honest.
I try not to even let them touch my skin no matter lone eat them.

on second thoughts vanillin and eugenol could be considered

phenols but then they have different groups on them.

still would not eat it though nor would I let it touch me.

best you go to the wetdreams.ws if you want weight loss.

[Edited on 8-12-2010 by Ephoton]

DDTea - 9-12-2010 at 18:48

This sounds like a great precursor to picric acid. More expensive than aspirin, no doubt, but fewer steps = higher yields.

And on a related note, since it is frighteningly close to picric acid, I wouldn't want it anywhere near my body.

smuv - 10-12-2010 at 15:29

That logic is stupid.

Ethanol and ethylene glycol only differ by one functional group, in fact their molecular formulas are different by only one oxygen. I don't have to tell you how much different their toxicity is. Even more strikingly, would be a comparison between ethylene oxide and ethanol which differ by only 2 hydrogens.

Toxicology is not as simple as it looks like this or that.

DDTea - 10-12-2010 at 17:48

Thank you for going out of your way for a stern and arrogant talking down, smuv.

Let me quote from the wiki article regarding nitrophenols as a family:
Quote:
Nitrophenols are poisonous. Occasionally, nitrophenols contaminate the soil near former explosives or fabric factories and military plants, and current research is aimed at remediation.



Picric acid is poisonous. So is 2,4-Dinitrophenol. So is o-nitrophenol. Picric acid is one that I happen to have a bit of experience with and I know that it is something that I would avoid contact with. Since it falls under the broader category of "nitrophenols," which are all toxic to some degree, it is a fair statement. I did not go out on a limb to state the mechanism of toxicity; in fact, I was barely talking about toxicology at all because that is something I am not very familiar with this.

[Edited on 12-11-10 by DDTea]

smuv - 10-12-2010 at 22:05

Yeah it was an asshole comment. Sorry.

It reflected my annoyance with this entire thread. People are missing the point, toxicity in and of itself does not provide ANY information about a drugs safety. There are a lot of drugs on the market with toxicities greater than 2,4-DNP, some with with toxicities orders of magnitude greater. A safe drug is a drug where the effective dose is much less than the harmful dose, not a drug with a low harmful dose. Reading wikipedia or quoting an MSDS does not provide any of this information. Extrapolating the toxicity of this compound from the known toxicity of another compound, is extremely difficult to do with any accuracy and additionally provides no information about the drugs safety without considering the therapeutic dose.

[Edited on 12-11-2010 by smuv]

DDTea - 10-12-2010 at 23:05

Good call regarding the safety margin. Here's what I can find for a recommended dosage for weight loss [1]: 3-5 mg/kg per day. So for a 60 kg person, 180-300 mg per day.

The lowest published lethal dose in humans is 4.3 mg/kg, or 258 mg for a 60 kg person. The oral LD50 in rats is much higher, 30 mg/kg. In mice, the oral LD50 is 45 mg/kg.

I have no idea how the oral LD50 in humans would compare to mice or rats, but with a lowest published lethal dose within the recommended dosage range, this seems like a very bad idea. Also, there seems to be a history of DNP causing death when it was used clinically in the '30's [1]:
Quote:
Then, around 1933-l935, death reports started appearing in the Journal of the American Medical Association and other medical journals. The problems were occurring at normal dosages; some people didn't lose weight at those doses and, even worse, others died.


On that site, there is also an interesting anecdote about French munitions workers in WW1 who were exposed to 2,4-DNP, presumably as an in-process reagent for the production of picric acid. That may be an indicator of the effects of chronic exposure to 2,4-DNP and a further warning against using it to lose weight.

[1] "fitFLEX Articles : DNP: Straight Forward Facts on Dinitrophenol (DNP)." http://www.fitflex.com/dnpfacts.html. accessed 12/11/2010.

[2] "Safety data for 2,4-dinitrophenol ." http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/DI/2,4-dinitrophenol.html . accessed 12/11/2010.


[Edited on 12-11-10 by DDTea]

BlazeBall - 11-12-2010 at 03:43

Using DNP as a weight loss drug is crazy, I remember my biology lecturer talking about this chemical, it's therapeutic index is narrow and simply having a hot day or overdoing it on the treadmill can result in hyperthermia.

DDTea - 11-12-2010 at 08:45

If DNP is ingested, would it be toxic to another animal that eats the animal that died from DNP? After thinking about the French munitions workers, feeding DNP to cows might make some excellent lean meat!

crazedguy - 11-12-2010 at 12:03

Quote: Originally posted by DDTea  
If DNP is ingested, would it be toxic to another animal that eats the animal that died from DNP? After thinking about the French munitions workers, feeding DNP to cows might make some excellent lean meat!

Well it wouldn't matter if the animal had ate it unless the animal eating eat ingested enough to have more than the LD50.
I think that is a great idea for lean meat though

entropy51 - 11-12-2010 at 12:37

Quote: Originally posted by crazedguy  
Well it wouldn't matter if the animal had ate it unless the animal eating eat ingested enough to have more than the LD50.
I think that is a great idea for lean meat though
Ummm, how you figure that? The LD50 kills half of those ingesting it. Usually makes the 50% that survives sick as hell.

crazedguy - 11-12-2010 at 13:41

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by crazedguy  
Well it wouldn't matter if the animal had ate it unless the animal eating eat ingested enough to have more than the LD50.
I think that is a great idea for lean meat though
Ummm, how you figure that? The LD50 kills half of those ingesting it. Usually makes the 50% that survives sick as hell.

Oh your right I don't figure, to think that a substance that wasn't in the animal you ate that was eliminated prior to ingestion would harm you is ridiculous. my logic = fail I retract my statement, you can go on with you vast knowledge.

DDTea - 11-12-2010 at 21:40

I think what crazedguy means is that so long as the animal didn't actually die from being poisoned and was able to sufficiently metabolize the drug prior to being slaughtered, the risk of poisoning to someone eating the animal should be minimal.

I don't think the "organic" crowd would like this idea much, though. However, in my opinion, it's just a different kind of "organic" :P

crazedguy - 11-12-2010 at 23:17

Quote: Originally posted by DDTea  
I think what crazedguy means is that so long as the animal didn't actually die from being poisoned and was able to sufficiently metabolize the drug prior to being slaughtered, the risk of poisoning to someone eating the animal should be minimal.

I don't think the "organic" crowd would like this idea much, though. However, in my opinion, it's just a different kind of "organic" :P

Yes on both statements.

Paddywhacker - 12-12-2010 at 01:56

Quote: Originally posted by DDTea  
Good call regarding the safety margin. Here's what I can find for a recommended dosage for weight loss [1]: 3-5 mg/kg per day. So for a 60 kg person, 180-300 mg per day.
...

That's about right, but watch out for a nasty chlorotic rash. I dosed myself with DNP about 40 years ago ... the idea was to loose weight and stamina in order to fail a compulsory Viet-Nam callup medical examination. The DNP was accompanied by a water-only diet for ten days.

But I had to stop taking DNP when I got a really painful rash in my groin area. So watch out for that.



spirocycle - 12-12-2010 at 06:47

Quote: Originally posted by DDTea  
I think what crazedguy means is that so long as the animal didn't actually die from being poisoned and was able to sufficiently metabolize the drug prior to being slaughtered, the risk of poisoning to someone eating the animal should be minimal.

I don't think the "organic" crowd would like this idea much, though. However, in my opinion, it's just a different kind of "organic" :P

the problem isnt with the cows, its with the pollution that is certain to follow.

NotMyForte - 12-12-2010 at 10:10

My only other question is..how do they ship this stuff?? being that it's a chemical do they use special methods and companys and deliver it only to designated labs and such or can they ship it to residential areas with commercial companys like ups,fedex??

hissingnoise - 12-12-2010 at 10:55

Are you going to disregard the sound advice people here have given you?
If you value your long-term health you will not ingest DNP.
And if you're worried about weight talk to your doctor . . .

NotMyForte - 12-12-2010 at 10:59

I appreciate the concern..But based on the research i have done and other's expirence, and short term cycle (5-7 days) of DNP use is not terrible..I also believe the lethal dose is approx 32mg/kg -- in the past i have no exceeded 300mg TOTAL (I am 180lbs) 81kg -- So i am well within the guidelines. Once again, thanks for the concern and sound advice thus far :)

ScienceSquirrel - 12-12-2010 at 12:03

Quote: Originally posted by NotMyForte  
My only other question is..how do they ship this stuff?? being that it's a chemical do they use special methods and companys and deliver it only to designated labs and such or can they ship it to residential areas with commercial companys like ups,fedex??


Some of the companies selling this stuff are very dodgy indeed.
They are sending it out in unmarked or misleadingly marked envelopes with no or false paperwork. In some cases the material is concealed inside something else eg a plastic toy.
The profit margin is huge as the material is bought as a research chemical and resold as a pharmaceutical, it is probably at least as profitable as dealing in marijuana or pornography and it is marginally legal. I think you could be prosecuted under the Medicines Act in the UK or something similar elsewhere but these people are coy and flighty.
Anyway they would probably get a heavy fine or a light sentence, nothing compared with the profits to be made.

NotMyForte - 12-12-2010 at 13:12

Well.. The place I have been referring to is actually a legit research chemical supply for people like yourselfs..so my question is how these types of companies ship..

DDTea - 12-12-2010 at 16:33

There's a huge difference in the way legitimate pharmaceuticals and "research chemicals" are manufactured, shipped, stored, etc. The quality control is on an entirely different level. In case you missed it, there are reports of lethal doses well below 32 mg/kg. In fact, I even gave you a reference.

It's pretty clear you're intent on hurt yourself and I won't be commenting here anymore to "help" you. I'd advise other members to do the same.

NotMyForte - 12-12-2010 at 17:23

Well thankyou for your help so far..

ScienceSquirrel - 13-12-2010 at 07:28

Quote: Originally posted by NotMyForte  
My only other question is..how do they ship this stuff?? being that it's a chemical do they use special methods and companys and deliver it only to designated labs and such or can they ship it to residential areas with commercial companys like ups,fedex??


That depends on the company and the chemical.
Some companies are very strict on what they will supply, how it is shipped and to whom.
Others are pretty lax or what they are selling is pretty harmless eg some educational suppliers will sell quite a lot of run of the mill chemicals to private experimenters or home schoolers plus the strangest things turn up in private hands on eBay.
There are also some companies operating internationally that will label up something like a litre of sassafras oil as lamp oil fragrance and bung it in the post, no questions asked.
However you had better hope that your local flics are not hot on your case!
If you make a knowledgeable and legitimate approach to them then a lot of companies will supply you. If you try to order one or two fairly occult chemicals without any good reason the door is likely to be firmly closed.
2,4-Dinitrophenol is used as an illicit weight loss agent and as a primer in detonator caps, that strikes me as good enough reasons why a legitimate large chemical supplier would not sell it to any ordinary Joe or Joanna!

[Edited on 13-12-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]

ScienceSquirrel - 13-12-2010 at 17:18

It has to be said that an attitude towards a chemical can vary widely;
Citric acid is hard to buy OTC from pharmacists where I live, 50g maximum with questions asked as it is used by drug addicts.
But I can buy it a lot cheaper on line for home brewing purposes and a kilo is no problem.
I used to be in the bath bomb business, 25kg sack of citric acid, no questions and cut price shipping.
Go figure, 25kg is enough to cut tens of kilos of junk if I wanted to and not one question is asked but 50g and i am cutting junk!
Oxalic acid or products containing oxalic acid are banned from sale here except by licensed outlets but bar keepers friend is available from supermarkets and you can buy oxalic acid as a wood restoration material from chandlers.

NotMyForte - 14-12-2010 at 12:37

Has anyone had expirence with

https://www.alfa.com/
or
www.rt-corp.com

If so,which and was it a rigorous process? Do you feel it would work out in my situation?


ScienceSquirrel - 14-12-2010 at 13:23

Quote: Originally posted by NotMyForte  
Has anyone had expirence with

https://www.alfa.com/
or
www.rt-corp.com

If so,which and was it a rigorous process? Do you feel it would work out in my situation?




You are on your own on that one as far as I am concerned.
I am not going help you circumvent a chemical supplier's checks so you can buy a metabolic poison.

hissingnoise - 14-12-2010 at 13:31

It's very likely that DNP for human use would have to go through an extensive purification process.
Reagent grade DNP may contain contaminants (mono and tri-nitrophenol) which may not affect its use for some purposes but which could cause serious problems if ingested . . .
But, in any case, I think that just ordering it may bring you unwanted attention!


smuv - 15-12-2010 at 14:38

not to mention other isomers.

Hoffies - 12-5-2016 at 19:14

You'd have to be absolutely stupid aka using it for long periods regularly to be killed. the people who are killed are mostly anorexic girls using it over periods of a year (WTF??)

I used it for 2 weeks a while back and barely felt the side effects; I live in Australia in a part of it which is nonstop 'nam jungle humid with epic heat. And i'm the kind guy that tends to sweat a lot too. Also I drank whilst on it and didn't discontinue adhd meds

I mean I only stumbled upon this thread because I cbf spending $600 for a poison license in aus to get it legally, found out in USA you need no such license but you have to be a registered business there (mine isn't obviously) and was looking for more info but yeah I thought I'd quickly sign up and say the research and actual chemistry is all fine and well but you can't actually comment unless you have personally experienced the effects of a chemical or seen a decent amount of people who have. I have bought it on "the dark markets" before ofc but no point paying extra and going through all the extra rubbish buying illegally entails if you don't have to.

You guys should be smart enough to know that hardly anyone dies on DNP and anyone that does is virtually always an idiot that should be culled from the gene pool anyway. As a non-scientist I just find it amusing (and interesting) how you guys discuss all the vaiious stuff like toxology etc, which is of course very important but only gives half the story... only way you're gonna know for sure is to get a representative sample of people and put em all on DNP and see how she goes. I'm not a chemist but I do work in the industry.

btw, you may be interested to know that this shit fucking works exactly as advertised; it's incredible.

chemplayer... - 12-5-2016 at 22:19

As a pharmacologist, let me tell you that you are absolutely stupid to take it at all.

1. Personal tolerance to this substance varies enormously from individual to individual (study mitochondrial DNA in order to understand why). A dose which is very tolerable for one person can precipitate fatal hyperthermia in another. Dose-response also seems to depend on dietary factors as well, and people's response can change over time.

2. Nitrated aromatics such as nitrophenols and their metabolites are notoriously carcinogenic and antineoplastic. There's not a lot of info out there, but 2-4-DNP does seem to cause bone marrow suppression and neutropenia in tests, which is generally speaking a bad sign and not something you want to be putting in your body.

3. Manufacturing, separating and purifying the pure isomer is hard. If you've bought it from Sigma-Aldrich then it's going to be the real deal. If it's unknown powder or tablets from a random source, then who knows how pure it is and what other nasty nitrated aromatic isomers and compounds are in there.

This stuff works exactly as the science says; it's a biochemical poison which bypasses your metabolism and turns your energy into heat, with potentially long lasting and cumulative ill effects.

Melgar - 15-5-2016 at 02:25

I used to have a Sigma Aldrich account. I got 1 kg of 2,4 DNP for about $200. The reason so many people fuck it up is because it can take 24 hours to start working. Since most drugs' effects start in under an hour, people assume that they didn't take enough when they don't notice any effects within 1-2 hours. So they take more. 24 hours later, they're convulsing in an ice bath.
Quote:
with potentially long lasting and cumulative ill effects.


If you're careful about it, start with a very low dose, increase dosage very gradually, don't take it for more than 2-3 weeks straight, make sure you spend at least as much time off of it as you do on it, and most importantly DO NOT TAKE ANY OTHER DRUGS DURING THAT TIME, you'll almost certainly be fine, assuming you're a healthy adult. Used it to lose about 30 pounds, with no side-effects other than increased sweating and thirst, which is exactly what you'd expect.

clearly_not_atara - 15-5-2016 at 10:15

If you buy the cheap shit, it's not pure. If you pay for analytical grade, it's probably not all that much cheaper than buying it the right way. Taking 85% dinitrophenol implies taking 15% God-knows-what.

Also, the Wikipedia article about it mentions "cataracts" as the reason it was discontinued, not hyperthermia. On the plus side, you'll get tax breaks after you go blind.

Melgar - 15-5-2016 at 11:39

Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara  
If you buy the cheap shit, it's not pure. If you pay for analytical grade, it's probably not all that much cheaper than buying it the right way. Taking 85% dinitrophenol implies taking 15% God-knows-what.

Also, the Wikipedia article about it mentions "cataracts" as the reason it was discontinued, not hyperthermia. On the plus side, you'll get tax breaks after you go blind.

85% dinitrophenol is how it's normally sold. The other 15% is water, to keep it wetted so it doesn't explode. It's hygroscopic anyway, so there's not really any risk of it ever getting to the point where it would. The thing with cataracts was only ever associated with women, and was never replicated after that. Keep in mind, during that time period, they would sweeten drug formulations with ethylene glycol and just throw in whatever other shit they had lying around. The link is tenuous at best, in any case. Even in the one-in-a-million chance it does lead to cataracts, cataracts are very treatable these days.

Marvin - 16-5-2016 at 05:05

If you take it in small amounts.. if you test your tolerance.. if you only take it for a short length of time. This may reduce the risk, but if you are careful and dedicated and patient eating fewer calories works too. I'm not talking about dieting, just eating a bit more healthily long term.

Codeine makes me vomit. Cyclozine I'm fine with, but it gives my sister convulsions. Hospitals here don't investigate, they just note it down and make sure it's not given again. Hoffies mentions ADHD, caffeine is normally a stimulant but in people with ADHD it is typically a sedative. There is an element of Russian roulette even with well understood licensed drugs.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying but it feels like people making poor and dangerous choices for their health, slightly too much fatty and sugary food. Adding a mitochondrial poison just seems like another poor and dangerous choice and that's the 'healthy overweight' category you are talking about.

Eddygp - 18-5-2016 at 05:20

If you are willing to monitor an inadvisable intake of 2,4-dinitrophenol for the purpose of weight reduction, I think it will take more effort than actually cutting down on calories/practising some sort of sport. While I am NOT a doctor, such a title is not required to know that a substance that inhibits ATP production and has been responsible for deaths as well as having very serious side effects should be handled with extreme care and most definitely not voluntarily ingested.

If you are desperate to find some substance to help with weight loss, I'm pretty sure that since the 1930s (when DNP was used for this purpose), science has had around 90 years to discover much safer and potentially more efficient drugs that do not carry the extreme side effects that, just by reading about them, sound more like it is a chemical weapon than other sort of molecule!

Do not poison yourself!! Take care with all potent bioactive substances and seek professional advice whenever it is needed.

clearly_not_atara - 18-5-2016 at 13:24

The only effective treatment for cataracts is to totally fucking replace the lens of your eyes. You know what's cheaper and safer than cataract surgery? Bariatric surgery. And that actually works, won't kill you, and doesn't cause cancer.

The_Davster - 18-5-2016 at 13:47

Or you could eat a proper diet and go to the gym, instead of eating a very toxic molecule that will fuck up your liver regardless of whatever pseudoscientific studies you read online.

DNP should be nitrated, not eaten.


[Edited on 18-5-16 by The_Davster]

Chemi Pharma - 19-5-2016 at 13:22

DNP is safe to consume as a weight loser if respected the maximum dosage per day: 3-4mg/kg.

If you exceeds this you have good chances of colapse your body with a Malignant Hyperthermia. Many articles claims thats no antidote to this hyperthermia. This is not true! Dantrolene sodium salt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dantrolene) is very effective to block this side effect. Always get it on hand at home to respond to an emergency like that, or else you will die cause the fever.

2,4 Dinitrophenol related deaths occurs only cause this malignant hyperthermia. No others side effects like kidney, liver or lung injuries never were related.

Against the risk of cataracts, take 1-2grs/day calcium piruvate pills to inhibit this side effect, however this side effect appears more with women than men consumers.

2,4 Dinitrophenol is easily made from adding an ethanolic solution of nitric acid over pure phenol (russian way), or by the reaction of phenol, sodium nitrite and TCCA over silica, as you can see at the papers attached.




Attachment: dinitrophenol-synthesis.pdf (175kB)
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Attachment: dinitration of phenols with TCCA, nitrite and SiO2.pdf (42kB)
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Melgar - 22-5-2016 at 16:18

The one time I tried it, I had access to the Sigma Aldrich stuff in grad school, and I was living in a room that was so cold it was hard to type on a keyboard for any length of time because my hands would get numb. I'd heard about the USSR giving DNP to troops stationed in Siberia as a means of preventing frostbite, and I could have stood to lose about 20 pounds at the time as well. The only mode of toxicity seemed to be hyperthermia via overdose, from all the literature I read on it. I didn't have any underlying conditions that it could exacerbate, so I figured I may as well see if I could solve two problems at once.

Bodybuilders regularly take the stuff to lose fat, so there was plenty of online discussion of it. I can see why it's not allowed to be sold for human consumption; watch the ads for daytime talk shows some time, and it's obvious from all the weight loss commercials that there's a pretty big overlap between people who aren't that bright and people who need to lose weight. If DNP was more easily accessible, a lot of people would die from taking too much. It's not worth it to put it on the market for weight loss, but it definitely works and can be used safely.

Eddygp - 23-5-2016 at 07:48

1-fluoro-2,4-dinitrobenzene is so much more interesting :D

Chemi Pharma - 23-5-2016 at 08:47

Please, talk more about it Eddygp.

About synthesis, effects, medical related, pharmacokynesis, etc.

[Edited on 23-5-2016 by Chemi Pharma]

Tsjerk - 23-5-2016 at 08:59

Is it OK to forget about the carcinogenicity of a compound as long people don't have problems with it for 10-20 years?

Tsjerk - 23-5-2016 at 09:08

1-fluoro-2,4-dinitrobenzene is indeed way, way more interesting. Frederick Sanger used it to get his Nobel ;). Later was brilliant enough to use knowledge similar to get a second Nobel.

Melgar - 24-5-2016 at 01:22

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Is it OK to forget about the carcinogenicity of a compound as long people don't have problems with it for 10-20 years?


Phenol is a known carcinogen. Dinitrophenol, there have been no studies linking it to cancer. I'm assuming you're not naive enough to think that any chemical with a phenol moiety is carcinogenic.

Assuming kidneys are functioning normally, total elimination appears to occur 3-4 days later. 2,4-DNP is an acute toxin much more than a chronic one, although to prevent chronic toxicity anyway, the recommendation is that it be taken for, at most 2-3 weeks, and then not taken afterwards for at least as long as it was taken beforehand.

Tsjerk - 24-5-2016 at 12:12

Melgar; I'm not naive enough to think that any chemical with a phenol moiety is carcinogenic. I am a bit disappointed that you take me for being stupid though... ( I would have gone for a link to paracetamol in this case btw)

Maybe 2,4-DNP is not carcinogenic by itself, but do you know what that 1-3 percent of impurities is? (Yes, even the Sigma stuff has 1-3 percent of stuff). My guess is that the impurities are isomers, such as mono-nitrophenols, other di-nitrophenols, trinitrophenol etc. Maybe benzenes, nitrobenzenes, maybe some nitroso-compounds, God knows what is in there...

Phenol is not a known carcinogene...



[Edited on 24-5-2016 by Tsjerk]

Tsjerk - 24-5-2016 at 12:24

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
the recommendation is that it be taken for, at most 2-3 weeks, and then not taken afterwards for at least as long as it was taken beforehand.


Could you tell me who recommends this?

Melgar - 24-5-2016 at 15:51

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
Melgar; I'm not naive enough to think that any chemical with a phenol moiety is carcinogenic. I am a bit disappointed that you take me for being stupid though... ( I would have gone for a link to paracetamol in this case btw)

Maybe 2,4-DNP is not carcinogenic by itself, but do you know what that 1-3 percent of impurities is? (Yes, even the Sigma stuff has 1-3 percent of stuff). My guess is that the impurities are isomers, such as mono-nitrophenols, other di-nitrophenols, trinitrophenol etc. Maybe benzenes, nitrobenzenes, maybe some nitroso-compounds, God knows what is in there...

None of the nitrophenols are carcinogenic. Benzene and nitrobenzene are, but you probably put more benzene in your body when you smell gasoline than would be in 500 mg of Sigma-Aldrich's 2,4-DNP.
Quote:
Phenol is not a known carcinogene...

Oh right, it's just a reproductive toxin. Guess that gets us males off the hook.
Quote:
Could you tell me who recommends this?

Experienced bodybuilders on bodybuilding forums. There haven't been proper clinical trials in close to a century, ok? Doctors have given it to their patients since then, off-label, and there have been a handful of deaths due to hyperthermia from overdose.

Also, reading through a list of 2,4-DNP scare stories from websites recommending that people NOT use it for weight loss, every single one was a case of hyperthermia from overdose. That is the only mode of toxicity that's been documented.

Tsjerk - 25-5-2016 at 10:49

So the take-home message of this thread is that you will probably not die as long as you don't take an overdose, but that the non-carcinogenic properties of this compound and its impurities are mostly confirmed by bodybuilders who have not taken a overdose.

Edit: or am I wrong here somewhere?




[Edited on 26-5-2016 by Tsjerk]

Polysialate - 25-5-2016 at 11:14

For those concerned with small amounts of impurities, DNP can be slowly recrystallized from 95% ethanol to give relatively large, pure crystals (if done slowly enough).

5g DNP dissolves in 45 mL 95% EtOH at 75°C (some stirring required), and can then be slowly cooled down to -10 °C for >70% yield of pretty darn pure crystal. Sometimes it doesn't nucleate readily, so keeping a seed (or a couple) on hand and seeding it around 65 °C is advisable for best results.

EDIT: And while not precisely forum-relevant, DNP is not quite the miracle-drug people might think. Sure it increases metabolism, but IME, appetite increases along with it, so you end up needing the same amount of willpower to lose weight with DNP that you would otherwise.

[Edited on 5-25-2016 by Polysialate]

Melgar - 25-5-2016 at 22:00

Quote: Originally posted by Polysialate  
And while not precisely forum-relevant, DNP is not quite the miracle-drug people might think. Sure it increases metabolism, but IME, appetite increases along with it, so you end up needing the same amount of willpower to lose weight with DNP that you would otherwise.

[Edited on 5-25-2016 by Polysialate]

If you dose on the high side, you're often distracted enough with thirst that you don't actually feel that hungry. Sure there's the occasional instance where you eat an entire carton of ice cream in one sitting, but if you've figured your dose such that you've doubled your metabolism, that hardly matters. Personally, I find the substance quite pleasant in the winter and a horrible ordeal in the summer. Convenient, because I tend to get a lot more activity in the summer anyway, so I don't need drugs to lose weight.

Melgar - 26-5-2016 at 06:27

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
So the take-home message of this thread is that you will probably not die as long as you don't take an overdose, but that the non-carcinogenic properties of this compound and its impurities are mostly confirmed by bodybuilders who have not taken a overdose.

Edit: or am I wrong here somewhere?

[Edited on 25-5-2016 by Tsjerk]

Also, declassified USSR reports about the effects of 2,4-DNP on preventing hyperthermia in troops stationed in cold climates. The FDA was created in response to deaths (from hyperthermia in the case of DNP) from various unregulated medications, and considering its approach in the past, I doubt the FDA will revisiting the stuff any time soon.

Another problem with DNP is that it doesn't work as well on morbidly obese people, because their surface area is a lot lower per unit volume, at least compared to healthier people, and you need surface area to get rid of heat. This means heavier people overheat more easily, DNP or not.

It's uses are mainly for people who need to drop a lot of fat quickly, and not so much as part of a healthy lifestyle.

Polysialate - 27-5-2016 at 09:26

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  

If you dose on the high side, you're often distracted enough with thirst that you don't actually feel that hungry. Sure there's the occasional instance where you eat an entire carton of ice cream in one sitting, but if you've figured your dose such that you've doubled your metabolism, that hardly matters. Personally, I find the substance quite pleasant in the winter and a horrible ordeal in the summer. Convenient, because I tend to get a lot more activity in the summer anyway, so I don't need drugs to lose weight.


Ah, that would explain it. I never took more than 300mg/day for fear of side effects (some forum posts mentioned peripheral neuropathy). Though even in winter I was uncomfortably hot whenever I wasn't home (I kept my apartment at 55°F, but even my workplace felt hot at 68°F).

Melgar - 29-5-2016 at 17:54

Quote: Originally posted by Polysialate  
Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  

If you dose on the high side, you're often distracted enough with thirst that you don't actually feel that hungry. Sure there's the occasional instance where you eat an entire carton of ice cream in one sitting, but if you've figured your dose such that you've doubled your metabolism, that hardly matters. Personally, I find the substance quite pleasant in the winter and a horrible ordeal in the summer. Convenient, because I tend to get a lot more activity in the summer anyway, so I don't need drugs to lose weight.


Ah, that would explain it. I never took more than 300mg/day for fear of side effects (some forum posts mentioned peripheral neuropathy). Though even in winter I was uncomfortably hot whenever I wasn't home (I kept my apartment at 55°F, but even my workplace felt hot at 68°F).

Actually, now that I think back on it (this was several years ago), I would avoid eating very much, because large meals would make me sweat buckets. I think that's because it ends up being concentrated in your intestinal tract if you take it orally, which would make sense. I think the highest dose I ever took was about 800 mg at maybe 230 pounds, at which point I was drinking water constantly. At that dose, I'd steam up the windows on the passenger side whenever I'd get in someone's car in the winter, and if I ever sat down for more than a few minutes, I'd leave a damp spot behind. I honestly didn't even need to lose weight that badly, I just was really curious about what its effects were like.

Polysialate - 1-6-2016 at 06:04

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  

I think that's because it ends up being concentrated in your intestinal tract if you take it orally, which would make sense.


Shouldn't this depend on the form you were taking? IE, the sodium salt should be decently soluble and fast-absorbing, while large particles/crystals of the protonated phenol would be slow to dissolve/absorb? My route of admin involved making a supersaturated aqueous solution by pouring DNP dissolved in ethanol into a large volume of water, then consuming it immediately (in hopes of maximizing bioavailability/uptake).
Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
I honestly didn't even need to lose weight that badly, I just was really curious about what its effects were like.
Ditto. I though "hey if there was a 'magic cutting pill' why not try it out?"

Tsjerk - 1-6-2016 at 09:50

Quote: Originally posted by Polysialate  


Shouldn't this depend on the form you were taking? IE, the sodium salt should be decently soluble and fast-absorbing, while large particles/crystals of the protonated phenol would be slow to dissolve/absorb? My route of admin involved making a supersaturated aqueous solution by pouring DNP dissolved in ethanol into a large volume of water, then consuming it immediately (in hopes of maximizing bioavailability/uptake).


No, whether or not the form, it will be transformed to the protonated phenol in minutes in the stomach as the pH is 1-3 there anyway.

[Edited on 1-6-2016 by Tsjerk]

[Edited on 1-6-2016 by Tsjerk]