Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Value of gold

Rogeryermaw - 4-10-2010 at 12:06


in a different mindset, as chemists(that's why i ask this here)how valuable is gold really? it's weak structurally and therefore mechanically useless other than perhaps corrosion resistance(and is way too expensive and rare for that) and has low chemical reactivity. so aside from its resistance to corrosion and high electrical conductivity, what makes gold so valuable?

case in point: my own wedding ring is made of titanium which i see as being far more valuable than gold.

EDIT: removed information that may have been seen as too personal


[Edited on 5-10-2010 by Rogeryermaw]

Lambda-Eyde - 4-10-2010 at 12:38

It's shiny, easily worked into beautiful items, does not corrode with time and most importantly; it's rare.

Polverone - 4-10-2010 at 15:51

The "precious metal" designation seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy rooted in the historical composition of coinage. Mercury, selenium, and bismuth are rarer than silver but are only a fraction of the price and never advertised as investment opportunities in popular media. Ruthenium and rhenium are rarer than gold but only a fraction of the price (though still expensive).

psychokinetic - 4-10-2010 at 17:02

Supply and demand.

Gold is good for shiny experiments, just as it is good for shiny jewellery.

Though, I'm not a fan of gold jewellery.

12AX7 - 4-10-2010 at 18:43

Gold is golden. Nuff said.

Copper is even more golden (it's coppery!), and alloys are gold, but they don't have the same shine.

Humans, like most animals, are attracted to bright, shiny objects.

There are a few technical purposes, but mostly it's because 1. it's shiny and 2. it's expensive.

Allow me remind you that, due to social feedback, it is reason enough for something to be expensive, for it to continue being expensive.

Tim

Mr. Wizard - 4-10-2010 at 19:48

Gold, Platinum, Palladium are all used in dental prosthetics and crowns. I recently had a couple of crowns put in, and thought they were a nickel or stainless alloy, covered with ceramic. The dentist informed me he ONLY used a Platinum Palladium alloy. A little research online showed that gold was also a popular metal for alloying in this field. Gold would have an advantage in a lower melting point, and ease of fabrication. Another use for gold in dentistry is gold fillings, which many older dentists were required to learn. This method has fallen out of use with the UV hardened polymers now available. Gold foil, sheet or sponge was gently tapped into the cavity, the metal pressure welding itself into a solid mass.
Tongue in cheek: This method has the advantage of being low technology, and ease of recycling. ;) I wonder how many morticians are precious metal recyclers?
http://www.discoveriesinmedicine.com/Com-En/Dental-Fillings-...

I don't believe being sensitive or allergic to gold is very common.

metalresearcher - 4-10-2010 at 22:37

Usability , occurrence and price are not always related. Price, in particular gold, is a very emotional and psychological issue.
Some elements are very expensive such as caesium, but it is useless as it is too soft and reactive.

Look at this graph in this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_the_chemical_eleme...

hissingnoise - 5-10-2010 at 03:59

Gold apparently, isn't always sought after . . .

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Croagh Patrick
Cruach Phádraig
The Reek
Elevation 764 m (2,507 ft)
Prominence 640 m (2,100 ft)
Listing Marilyn, Hewitt
Translation (Saint) Patrick's stack (Irish)
Location
Location County Mayo, Ireland
Coordinates 53°45′36″N 9°39′34″W / 53.760047°N 9.659536°W / 53.760047; -9.659536Coordinates: 53°45′36″N 9°39′34″W / 53.760047°N 9.659536°W / 53.760047; -9.659536
Topo map OSi Discovery 30, 31, 37 or 38
OSI/OSNI grid L906802

Croagh Patrick (Irish: Cruach Phádraig), nicknamed the Reek, is a 764 metres (2,507 ft) tall mountain and an important site of pilgrimage in County Mayo, Ireland. It is 8 kilometres (5 mi) from Westport, above the villages of Murrisk and Lecanvey. It is the third highest mountain in County Mayo after Mweelrea and Nephin. On "Reek Sunday", the last Sunday in July every year, over 15,000 pilgrims climb it. It forms the southern part of a U-shaped valley created by a glacier flowing into Clew Bay in the last Ice Age. Croagh Patrick is part of a longer east-west ridge; the westernmost peak is called Ben Goram.
A seam of gold was discovered in the mountain in the 1980s: overall grades of 14 grams (0.45 ozt) of gold per tonne in at least 12 quartz veins, which could produce 700,000 t (770,000 short tons) of ore — potentially over 300,000 troy oz of gold (worth over €300m). Mayo County Council elected not to allow mining, deciding that the gold was "fine where it was".

bbartlog - 5-10-2010 at 06:53

I would suggest reading something about the origins of money to understand why gold was chosen as currency. It doesn't corrode, is easily portable, is not too difficult to test for purity and quantity, is not trivial to produce more of - these are all important factors. Grain-based currency suffers from the fact that the grain eventually goes bad, so it can't function as a store of value. Salt and iron were used at times, but both are bulky and need to be kept kind of dry. Copper, silver and gold are durable, compact and corrosion-resistant...

hissingnoise - 5-10-2010 at 07:34

Quote:
I would suggest reading something about the origins of money to understand why gold was chosen as currency.

Does it have something to do with the fact that people like to look at it?

psychokinetic - 5-10-2010 at 11:39

Probably. As usual, those with the power decided what was worth dying for.

gold

cyanureeves - 5-10-2010 at 14:08

dont forget maleability.one smidgen can be made into a sheet1000x bigger and still retain its properties, luster and not corrode.amazing how it found its usefulness again with computers.platinum wouldve took its place probably if it hadnt been to difficult to isolate.and yes its eye catching. at least for every people on every continent.

Rogeryermaw - 5-10-2010 at 21:22

what i say is that if i had gold and someone else wanted it and saw it as being of value, i would easily trade every bit i had. i can use iron. i can use aluminum. i would trade it for your gunpowder and then shoot you and take it back waiting for the next fool who thought it really had value.

if the economic systems of the world collapsed and barter and service were the standards for trade, gold would end up in the trash pile. i suppose it could be melted down and used for bullets but lead is doing such a good job of that as it is.

from what i have read in alchemical texts, gold is supposed to be the last mutation and most mature form of metal and i believe it was lead that was the first or youngest. the attempts of the alchemists at turning base metals to gold was thought to be a process of maturing. possibly due to its rarity of course but i just don't see it.
Quote:
the only thing that distinguishes one metal from another, is its degree of maturity, which is, of course, greatest in the most precious metals; the difference between lead and gold is not one of substance, but of digestion; in the baser metal the coction has not been such as to purge out its metallic impurities. if by any means this superfluous impure matter could be organically removed from the baser metals, they would become gold and silver.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zcFjgcW-M_8C&pg=PA37&am...



perhaps my vision is flawed but to me usefulness is about utility and the utility of gold is very limited. not necessarily because it is not useful for several things but a combination of that and its rarity and cost making it prohibitive to use for such tasks.

bquirky - 5-10-2010 at 23:48

why is gold valuable as a money? the way i see it is this..

It is rare enough to be of value in pocketable quantity's

There is a limited amount of new gold available at a time (important as digging more up works the same as printing money)

It is chemicly stable and wont corrode away in your pocket

and it is rellitivly easy for a layperson to identify as opposed to other rare metals that kinda all look the same.


So in general i think that anything that fits those criteria can be used as a monetary instrument and that includes paper money with legal penalty's for private print runs.

on a lighter note.
I was once told to never think to hard about what money and the economy actuly IS as it will only make you nervous.



hissingnoise - 6-10-2010 at 02:44

Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves  
dont forget maleability.one smidgen can be made into a sheet1000x bigger and still retain its properties, luster and not corrode.

And so thin you can see through it - through gold leaf, the sun is green as grass . . .

spong - 6-10-2010 at 03:02

I hate that gold is so valuable, it's pretty much useless compared to virtually all other metals, it has some uses in dentistry and electronics but not all that much else. Plus, there is a LOT of it, apparently there is enough gold in bank vaults around the world to keep up with the current demand for the next few thousand years. People keep mining it of course, because it's so expensive :P

madscientist - 6-10-2010 at 06:24

Another interpretation for why gold has always been considered a standard of value is because it encapsulates a large amount of labor from the discovery and mining process, is easily stored and transported, and does not deteriorate. Hence it makes for a good unit of value to trade for other goods. Other potential currencies such as hamburgers, nails, horses, etc. don't take nearly as much work per pound to produce, hence you must haul around much more weight to make trades; also, hamburgers and horses are subject to deterioration.

Aesthetic and industrial uses of course are a big part as well. We monkeys go crazy over shiny trinkets.

bbartlog - 6-10-2010 at 17:10

Quote:
So in general i think that anything that fits those criteria can be used as a monetary instrument and that includes paper money


But paper money suffers from the risk that whoever is in charge of it will decide to abuse it and print a bunch (see: Zimbabwe, Hungary, Bolivia and others too numerous to mention...). Granted gold or other precious metals have the analogous risk that a huge deposit will be uncovered and/or new processes found to make them cheaper, but historically that doesn't seem to be as likely. Which is why, while paper money *can* be used as a monetary instrument, it generally requires government backing to force people to use it.

psychokinetic - 6-10-2010 at 21:17

Perhaps it is good that gold is so valuable, rather than something potentially useful.

zed - 7-10-2010 at 04:59

Gold is an important industrial metal.

Its current high price isn't based on that usefulness however.

Gold has for a long while been an investment of choice, in perilous times. It's highly portable, and it never loses all of its value.

During the DotCom boom, Gold was pretty cheap. Here in America, we were rolling in money. Investors were making tons of money in the stock market, and all was well.

The initial PC madness lapsed around 2000, and the Stock Markets crashed hard. Recently, both the stock & real estate markets have crashed hard again.

There is no real faith whatsoever, in the world's financial systems, and in the US, even home prices have fallen.

For the moment, investors are flocking to Gold.

In October of 1999, when things were still apparently well with most of the World's economy......Gold was about $300.00 (US Dollars) per ounce.



[Edited on 7-10-2010 by zed]

psychokinetic - 7-10-2010 at 11:28

And when it was realised that the money-that-wasn't-real wasn't there anymore, we were all fucked.

That's a value of gold - it's touchable.

Panache - 12-10-2010 at 19:56

the commodity price of palladium bumped by 37% in one days trade yesterday, any idea why?

arsphenamine - 12-10-2010 at 20:29

Quote: Originally posted by zed  
The initial PC madness lapsed around 2000, and the Stock Markets crashed hard.
Yes, the markets crashed, but the stocks didn't fall -- they were pushed.

The Glass-Steagal Act was repealed in 1999 so that a financial entity could act as a commercial bank, investment bank, and insurance company. In plain terms, the investment bank could gamble with commercial depositors' funds and underwrite the losses with the insurance company.

The 2000 DotCom collapse was a direct result of venture capital lost through risky investment speculation after the 1999 Glass-Steagal repeal.

psychokinetic - 12-10-2010 at 21:08

Quote: Originally posted by arsphenamine  
Yes, the markets crashed, but the stocks didn't fall -- they were pushed.


Like lemmings they was.

S.C. Wack - 5-11-2010 at 13:59

Quote: Originally posted by Panache  
the commodity price of palladium bumped by 37% in one days trade yesterday, any idea why?


LONDON, Oct 8 (Reuters) - Russian miner Norilsk Nickel, the world's biggest producer of autocatalyst metal palladium, said it expected Russian state stocks of the white metal to be "finished" next year.

"This year will be the last year when any substantial quantity from this stock has any chance to enter the market," the company's deputy general director for sales and distribution Viktor Sprogis said at a briefing in London.

"That is why we expect that next year this stock is finished." Officially levels of Russian metals stocks are a state secret.

Palladium prices have risen to 9-year highs in recent weeks amid speculation supply would fail to keep pace with a recovery in demand, particularly from U.S. and Chinese carmakers, this year and next.

The white metal hit a peak of $602.50 an ounce on Thursday, its strongest level since mid-2001. Sprogis said the outlook for the palladium market is "very, very positive".

Sales of metal from Russian palladium stockpiles have been a key component in overall supply for a number of years. Metals refiner Johnson Matthey estimated in a report earlier this year that such sales amounted to 960,000 ounces in 2009.

Without these sales, the palladium market would have been in a deficit of some 200,000 ounces, according to JM data, rather than in the surplus they actually recorded. (Reporting by Julie Crust and Jan Harvey; Editing by William Hardy)

This has been building through the year, it was reported earlier:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-05-19/russian-state-may-h...

I doubt the SA mines will ever take prices below Russian stockpile prices, just like gold prices have never gotten anywhere near Swiss stockpile sale prices not long ago. Ironically I could not afford to invest anything when that happened, but I saw the opportunity and was blown away by how commentators unanimously felt that buying gold was still a bad idea at ~$350/oz.

I bought enough Pd low after it had been high, then it went high again, and when it came back down again you were warned:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10982&...
It went down to maybe $300 delivered (extra big markup for rounds and bars this time, plus extra for nicer items) and won't be going that low again.

pd1825nyb.gif - 7kB

bquirky - 6-11-2010 at 12:18

WOW ive got to ask.. ive allways wanted to know..

HOW do you buy and TAKE DELIVERY of metals traded on international markets like that.
Ive only ever seen futures and warrents and other BS crap.. how do you buy a few ounces of palladium at or near market price and take physical delivery ?? do you just get it at your local mint like gold or is it some off market thing or what ? :)

Thanks

regards
Bryden

bbartlog - 6-11-2010 at 15:45

When I bought gold a while back (physically delivered) it was from bullion direct, www.bulliondirect.com. They sell gold, silver, platinum and palladium at pretty near to spot prices (e.g. $713 for a one ounce palladium ingot). That's only $28 above the spot price of $685, which is about as good as you are likely to get unless you spend a lot of time haunting ebay or otherwise scoping out rare opportunities.

Jor - 6-11-2010 at 15:53

Nevertheless, palladium is seriously expensive now.

I can almost punch myself, as I seriously considered investing 1000-2000 EUR in palladium back in 2008, but I didn't have a lot of money so I didn't like the risk. that would have been a very good idea considering what it's worth now. I think it will keep rising.

watson.fawkes - 6-11-2010 at 18:32

Quote: Originally posted by Jor  
that would have been a very good idea considering what it's worth now. I think it will keep rising.
For the next few months, at least. Large users of the metal will switch out to something more economical as soon as they can research an alternative and retool for it. Don't count on a permanent spike. Where palladium was being used for platinum, some may be able to go back to platinum, for example.

S.C. Wack - 6-11-2010 at 18:55

Quote: Originally posted by bquirky  

HOW do you buy and TAKE DELIVERY of metals traded on international markets like that.


Rereading my post and googling would work.
Minimum orders to Oz from here. Surely there is metal trading on the continent.

Eh I mentioned a dealer with current lower price over spot than BD, but BD wins with its cheap shipping. Buying now is NOTHING like TRYING to buy when the market is low and everyone is trying to buy physical product and not the nice coins or kilo bars either. Prices get jacked up when it's time to jack up prices and I remember BD did not really have Pd when the market was at the lowest. There were lots of >1kg Russian state refinery ingots in non-rounded weights available elsewhere and not a whole lot else at the time. Now those you could get a good deal on then.

BTW Rh powder is available now from yet another site mentioned in my last post, in 1, 5, and 10 oz. lots...they've been selling the platinumware etc. on the site for a long time, but the Rh is new. Note platinum and palladium are very high now, but look at rhodium...hmmm...who will buy your rhodium if it goes back up, especially if you unsealed it? I think that $760 price is the reason why physical Rh is available now.

rh1825lnb.gif - 9kB

madscientist - 7-11-2010 at 10:22

My god, I wish I'd been aware of that massive price crash. At $760 I would've bought some for sure!

White Yeti - 5-8-2011 at 06:15

Gold is a little bit like diamonds and oil; prices are greatly influenced by speculation. To a chemist, platinum group metals are more valuable because of their catalytic properties. Gold is near useless in the lab.

ibro - 29-3-2012 at 12:32

All I know that everybody is stockpiling, and price is going up each day...

phlogiston - 29-3-2012 at 16:05

Everybody is stockpiling, and THEREFORE the price is going up each day.
Quote:

If the economic systems of the world collapsed and barter and service were the standards for trade, gold would end up in the trash pile.


There was a time when barter and service WERE the standards for trade, and gold was highly valued then. In fact, it pretty much has ever been for as long as humans have been around. So I doubt it, in fact I think we would return to using something touchable and real like gold to trade for services/goods.

Amy Winehouse - 29-3-2012 at 21:12

I was just thinking about this today. Gold is valuable for a similar reason that bitcoins (electronically fabricated currency) are valuable. Just like in massive online RPGs, there are companies that sell game currency for USD. The theory is, if enough people in a community agree that something has value, voila! it has value. So the birth of electronic currency. If you ask me, electronic currency is especially erosion resistant and compact, even more so than gold :P aside from having a propensity to be stolen (which, hey gold isn't exactly exempt from).

Electronic currency is also conductive like gold. ba doo chhhhhh

franklyn - 19-5-2013 at 16:05


" You folks who think that Bitcon can somehow "replace" national currencies
without the consent of the nations involved have rocks in your head."
- Karl Denninger

The ultimate problem for Bitcoin ( and other similar crypto-currencies ) is that
they are not self validating. This leaves their exchange subject to third party
validation and interference from governmental authorities. Did you ' get that '
the holy grail and chalice of electronic money is , S E L F . V A L I D A T I O N
it must be as good as gold , in a digital form for peer to peer transaction
without intermediaries.

Department of Homeland Security seized US " bank accounts " belonging to
Mt. Gox Bitcoin exchange. Got that ! , not the FBI or Treasury Department ,
but the Department of Homeland Security , specifically U.S. Immigration and
Customs Enforcement. Homeland Security simply created accounts with Dwolla
and Mt. Gox, then bought Bitcoins , and changed them back into Dollars. That
money was traced to see that it passed through a Wells Fargo account , which
was created by a single authorized signer: Mark Karpeles , the president and
CEO of Mt. Gox. The problem is that Mt. Gox had specifically declared that they
are not a firm involved in money services , dealing in such without a license is
a crime. The purpose of licensing is to obstruct money laundering and tax
evasion by enabling records of transactions to be available for scrutiny.
• Copy of warrant _
http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Mt-Gox...
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=220898
www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9ecefa7c-bda6-11e2-890a-00144feab7de.html...
www.extremetech.com/extreme/155933-homeland-security-seizes-...
related post _
www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=17281&pag...

In another matter _
Tax evasion is a criminal matter if it can be shown that it has in fact taken place,
just as any other criminal charge. A criminal charge of 'attempted ' tax evasion
means that no actual evasion need have occurred , merely the possibility that it
could have if you were inclined to avail yourself of the opportunity to do so.
By this logic you may be subject to arrest for 'attempted ' shoplifting merely by
being present in a store , since the opportunity existed for you at any time to
have pilfered. Any one thinking any ' bad ' thoughts better get them out of your
head now and put on your tinfoil hat.

.

AJKOER - 19-5-2013 at 18:25

The value of a metal, in my opinion, is better represented by its uses and the cost of corresponding substitutes for each use. This constitutes the support price for the metal. The market price in excess of the support price should be a matter of concern.

Be aware that actually buying gold entails a negative carry. No interest is paid on the money spent. There is an associated cost for storage, insurance and for possible transport.

One would think a good reason for gold's value is its actual scarity of the metal per the amount available in the earth's crust, but this does not address its value per available substitutes.

For example, as a currency, it offers the value of corrosive resistance, non-toxic, good density to distinguish it from other metals, and softness again for uniqueness and ability to easily make coins. Obvious substitute is paper money, which is very cheap. Electronic money (debit cards,...), another substitute, may have an advantage in ease of trade and theft protection in certain cases (insured bank accounts and the like). Bottom line, not much actual price support here.

As jewelry, the same reasons, corrosive resistance, non-toxic... However, substitutes are available that have some of these features at a much lower price, so not much support for the price here either.

In electronics, good electrical and heat resistance properties, but copper is just a slightly less good substitute, but much much cheaper. Little price support here again.

Perhaps, you just want to invest in a precious metal as an inflation hedge. Then, you should most likely choose a less risky metal like silver, platinum, or rare earth metals that have a higher significant part of its market price supported by actual commercial demand because of lack of substitutes and limited availability.

What would its really cost be to you to replace gold for a particular purpose? And just becomes it has more value to some than others, that does not set its value at the higher price in a market place. Are you starting to get the picture on exactly how (and why) investing in gold is speculative?


[Edited on 20-5-2013 by AJKOER]

Dr.Bob - 21-5-2013 at 05:02

The key to the theoretical cost of an item is the capital and the labor needed to produce it. So while gold prices are subject to many outside influences, the cost of copper, silver and gold are all related to their abundance, demand, and their cost of recovery. Since copper mining produces silver as a major by-product, and copper use has been high for many years, that produced a lot of silver by product, thus lowering the price. On top of that, silver is not being used in the photographic world in any real amount now, thus the price is low compared to gold.

However, most major veins of gold have been already mined, and the remaining ones require a substantial amount of ore to be processed to obtain much gold. Some gold comes from copper/silver mining, but not enough to meet demand, so that is one reason gold is higher than silver. Modern instrumentation can find gold deposits (or at least their signatures) in rock via aerial survey, so there is little likelihood of vast gold deposits that remain unknown to modern industry. So that is another reason that gold is precious, is that we "know" that there is a limited supply, although that is always open to hidden finds (mostly in countries like Russia than have not allowed public surveying and don't publish government data.) So if it takes a lot of work to get the gold out of the ground and pure, then it will be worth a lot of money.

S.C. Wack - 21-5-2013 at 19:12

Demand can be pretty speculative. The rare metals market of the past 6 years has been a ride.

I'm wondering where the bottom is for the gold slide of late. A lot of the advice from the experts to the US public has been BS since always, but the market is really not so opaque...there was some ridicule of the gold rush, but it was the smart money, big money looking for a vehicle. Now it's getting off the bus and taking profits.

Current investment options are not great. I imagine a few to all financial advisers are saying sell all your gold today. Gold would have given you double money (of um perhaps obscure existence to um outsiders) net in 3 years if sold not long into this slide. Or...you could have taken my advice from my first post above (bought from APMEX the random weight RU Pd bars at $200/oz after mortgaging your house), got in at $13k delivered, and resold at $40-50k. In two years. Similar deal '97-00. Volatile.

Remember kids, have money at the right time: then
...and the Pd to bitcoin...oh oh oh oh oh oh
I'm not saying you should rob banks for the cash if such a need arises, but it probably would have been sound financial advice even for Amish, who would be doing lines of coke right now, chasing the thrill of capitalism...and bank robbery

Eddygp - 22-5-2013 at 08:02

Gold's real value is based on speculation and that bright orange tinge it has, as well as being very ductile and malleable. Useless for a chemist comparing it to copper, platinum, palladium, silver, etc...

S.C. Wack - 21-6-2015 at 13:52

Rh is less than Pt now, both are about 1k...thought it's worth mentioning that Pt is now lower than it's been in several years. Pd is the same as when I posted the Pd chart. Rh is better than half price from the Rh chart and I feel bad about that, but you didn't buy any did you...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-19/platinum-t...
Shortages of platinum and palladium will contract from record levels as South African supplies rebound after last year’s mines strike and investors sell, according to Johnson Matthey Plc.

Palladium is set to record the smallest shortfall in four years in 2015, while platinum will come the closest to a balanced market in three years as recovering supplies offset growing demand from car-makers, data from the company showed.

Both metals have been in deficit since 2012 amid supply disruptions and as stricter legislation against vehicle emissions strengthened demand for the materials, which are used as catalysts in pollution-control devices.

“Demand from the auto sector is anticipated to rise to a new record high in 2015,” Rupen Raithatha, research manager at Johnson Matthey, said Monday by e-mail, referring to palladium. That will be outweighed by factors including the recovery of South African supply and “significant liquidation” by investors in exchange-traded products.

Palladium’s deficit will contract to 100,000 ounces in 2015, down from 1.8 million ounces in 2014, according to Johnson Matthey’s platinum group metals report on Tuesday. South African mine supply is seen recovering 17 percent to 2.48 million ounces, the highest since 2011, following the five-month mine strike that ended in June. South Africa is the largest platinum producer and second-biggest for palladium.

For platinum, the shortage this year is estimated at 285,000 ounces, with South African supply rebounding 19 percent to 4.24 million ounces. The country will account for 73 percent of global supply.

Platinum demand is forecast to be little changed at about 8.31 million ounces, as a 10 percent increase in auto-catalyst usage to 3.7 million ounces is offset by investors selling 88,000 ounces compared with purchases of 272,000 ounces last year. Demand for jewelry will fall 1.3 percent, while increasing 2.9 percent for industrial uses.

Palladium demand will drop 12 percent from 2014 to 9.4 million ounces, with investors seen selling 400,000 ounces after buying 932,000 ounces last year. Jewelry usage may fall 34,000 ounces to 245,000 ounces, while industrial demand slips 2.4 percent to about 2.1 million ounces.

Platinum, favored in diesel engines commonly used in Europe, retreated 3.4 percent this year to $1,166.73 an ounce in London on Tuesday, according to Bloomberg generic pricing. Palladium, mainly used in gasoline engines that are more popular in the U.S. and China, slipped 1.6 percent this year to $785.25 an ounce.

Holdings in platinum-backed ETPs have fallen 7.5 percent from a record set in July to 82.9 metric tons, data compiled by Bloomberg show. Investors own 91.9 tons of palladium through ETPs, 4.2 percent below the all-time high set in August.

Supply from re-using jewelry and auto-catalytic converters will increase for both metals, with platinum recycling rising 6.8 percent to 2.21 million ounces and palladium by 4.5 percent to 2.87 million ounces, according to Johnson Matthey, which makes about a third of the world’s catalytic converters.

Rhodium is forecast to see a 62,000-ounce surplus, after registering shortages in 2013 and 2014. Supply will rise 18 percent to 726,000 ounces, while demand is seen little changed at 997,000 ounces. Recycling of the metal, mainly used in catalytic converters and also in the chemical and glass industries, will account for 333,000 ounces.

zed - 19-7-2015 at 15:15

The price of Platinum is down, down, down. It is actually less than Gold now. Less that 1000 US per ounce. Economy must be recovering.

Platinum has spent a lot of time in the $1600 to $1800 range, over the last few years. As of today.....$995 per ounce.

Fear seems to drive metal prices up. It is considered a hedge of sorts. If the whole world go "to hell in a handbasket"......Gold will still retain some value.

So, Platinum? How low can it go?

[Edited on 19-7-2015 by zed]

[Edited on 19-7-2015 by zed]

Morgan - 19-7-2015 at 16:35

There was a big spike in nickel briefly several years ago.
http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/nickel/all/

S.C. Wack - 20-1-2016 at 12:54

Quote: Originally posted by bbartlog  
When I bought gold a while back (physically delivered) it was from bullion direct, www.bulliondirect.com. They sell gold, silver, platinum and palladium at pretty near to spot prices (e.g. $713 for a one ounce palladium ingot). That's only $28 above the spot price of $685, which is about as good as you are likely to get unless you spend a lot of time haunting ebay or otherwise scoping out rare opportunities.


It turns out that they were able to do this by never buying metal that was supposed to be bought and stored for instead of delivered to the customers who chose that option; i.e. fraud. Tulving has also declared bankruptcy. apmex and jmbullion are still around, and kitco has 1 oz. Rh bars for $845.

I bring this up because Pd is back under $500 and Pt is nearing the lowest point since I signed up here. No one knows where the bottom is for Pt or if prices will rise from today, but a weak China can only be good news. Also good is speculation won't keep the price as artificially high, because new investors who bought Pt and Pd physical or otherwise in the past year now have a bad taste in their mouth, and might not be quick to do it again.

diddi - 20-1-2016 at 16:41

can I get some links for Rh bullion sales plz?

kitco looks best...?

[Edited on 21-1-2016 by diddi]

S.C. Wack - 8-3-2022 at 14:43

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack  
I bring this up because Pd is back under $500


6 years later I'm seeing $3099, 3163, 3171, 3178, and 3226 /troy oz, depending on who is asked...all spot not bid, all at today's closing...not sure how that works...*rubs palms together*

Rainwater - 8-3-2022 at 16:41

Lots of post read. I was disappointed by the direction everyone took.
Quote: Originally posted by Rogeryermaw  

in a different mindset, as chemists(that's why i ask this here)how valuable is gold really?


So, from an electrical detail, at room temperature, there is no better conductor I know of; its corrosion resistance makes it great for connections exposed to the elements. Data connections are a good example.

Gold doesn't react with oxygen and is resistant to ozone at low temperatures, most other acids and bases. If it does react with something, it is easily reduced back to elemental form. Basically, you need a strong oxidizer or a halogen to get it to chemically react.

This makes it great for some electrolysis solutions. (NaOH)
And worse for others (NaCl)

Herr Haber - 9-3-2022 at 13:44

Quote: Originally posted by madscientist  
My god, I wish I'd been aware of that massive price crash. At $760 I would've bought some for sure!


Twelve years later and that price is now for a gram...
X30 in 12 years and nobody is selling.

The only form I found Rh is in plating solutions for jewelers. I guess that could be a source too.

Crazy_Chemist - 11-3-2022 at 00:34

I bought Rhodium from Israel, for about €25 for a 10 mm x 1 mm very thin strip to my element collection recently. Se daily prices here:
https://www.dailymetalprice.com/

Dr.Bob - 29-3-2022 at 17:27

I may be one of the few chemists to ever use a gold catalyst for real chemistry. It was not a great catalyst or a very useful reaction, but I have actually done chemistry one and with gold, even chiral catalysts. But my advisor was upset that it cost so much (even though it was his idea to try it), so not a great area of chemistry.

If we can ever find ways to extract elements from the ocean effciently, we will be in great shape, as has a huge amount of gold, uranium, and many other elements in the ocean, so it would be a great source. They are already looking at that for lithium and some other limited source metals. Already used for salt/chlorine, Mg, Ca, Iodine, Bromine (Dead Sea), Lithium (Salton Sea), and some others.

The Ukraine situation may alter the prices of Pt and Pd, as well as the use of electric cars, which don't need catalytic but do require many other metals.

Herr Haber - 1-4-2022 at 15:39

Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob  

If we can ever find ways to extract elements from the ocean effciently, we will be in great shape, as has a huge amount of gold, uranium, and many other elements in the ocean, so it would be a great source. They are already looking at that for lithium and some other limited source metals. Already used for salt/chlorine, Mg, Ca, Iodine, Bromine (Dead Sea), Lithium (Salton Sea), and some others.

The real Fritz Haber did try to extract gold from sea water to help Germany pay war reparations after WW1. It didnt work as expected.
A century has passed though so I guess it will be more interesting to do now.
Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob  

The Ukraine situation may alter the prices of Pt and Pd, as well as the use of electric cars, which don't need catalytic but do require many other metals.

That's not entirely true. The "electric revolution" will also use fuel cells that do need Pt and Pd in addition to all the batteries that as you say do require other metals.
In this regard the decades to come promise to be very interesting as there are a lot of competing technologies.


[Edited on 1-4-2022 by Herr Haber]

Metallophile - 1-4-2022 at 17:24

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  

That's not entirely true. The "electric revolution" will also use fuel cells that do need Pt and Pd in addition to all the batteries that as you say do require other metals.
In this regard the decades to come promise to be very interesting as there are a lot of competing technologies.

[Edited on 1-4-2022 by Herr Haber]


In my opinion the electric revolution is already happening, and fuel cells are not a part of it.

Herr Haber - 5-4-2022 at 09:43

I dont know... There are so many people with so many projects that seem very confident.
I count hydrogen as a part of the electric revolution and you can find PGM's all the way from electrolysis to the catalytic oxidation of the produced hydrogen in a form or another.
Some people are working on systems that use hydrides in paste form in canisters. It makes no sense to me as I imagine that the cost of producing said hydride is huge but hey, I'm not a specialist and some (I assume) smart people decide to fund this kind of research so who am I to judge ?

It certainly seems that we are at a threshold though. A bit like 120 years ago when acetylene was trying to take coal gas place while at the same time electricity was more and more common for city lights.

Rainwater - 5-4-2022 at 10:25

Once we figure it out it will be all to easy. Just like medicine. The first pill can cost billions. Everyone after that is almost free

zed - 16-6-2022 at 07:35

Easy enough to make those fancy heavy elements. Just bang a couple of Neutron Stars together, and collect the material ejected by the explosion. The super dense Neutronium, upon being released from the terrible gravitational pressures inside the Neutron stars, rearranges itself into ordinary matter, yielding a decent proportion of very heavy elements. Gold, Platinum, Plutonium... Etc.

Since we don't yet have the interstellar flight, required to mine that enriched detritus, and we haven't figured out how to duplicate that Neutronium process in the lab, we will just have to scrape along, for a while.

clearly_not_atara - 16-6-2022 at 08:44

Fuel cells are very interesting for the highest-end high-performance applications. Direct borohydride fuel cells, for example, have been under development for submarines. This makes sense, because a submarine tends to cost tens of millions of dollars anyway.

For cheaper applications the range advantage of a fuel cell relative to the operating cost doesn't make sense when you can just add a few more refueling (charging) stops. Transoceanic flight is the one major exception for obvious reasons.

Mo, Ru and Pd are accessible in asteroids, but we won't mine them before I'm retired at the earliest.

Tsjerk - 16-6-2022 at 09:24

I'm really wondering whether aviation will ever be done with electricity from batteries. Synthetic fuel seems more plausible to me.

Dr.Bob - 16-6-2022 at 12:32

Batteries are too heavy, they just need a really long, light weight, extension cord instead.

Tsjerk - 16-6-2022 at 14:23

Yes, and then fly in circles.

Fleaker - 30-6-2022 at 10:47

It will be H2 storage from renewables (Ir catalyst) put into the ammonia molecule.

It will be ammonia cracked back to hydrogen and nitrogen to run a fuel cell (Ru catalyst).

It will be platinum in the fuel cell.

This is the gist of what I heard at this year's international precious metals conference.
From my understanding, US electric grid cannot support a fully electric vehicle fleet. It will be a hybrid technology of "gas stations" with ammonia.

draculic acid69 - 30-6-2022 at 18:14

Quote: Originally posted by Rainwater  
Once we figure it out it will be all to easy. Just like medicine. The first pill can cost billions. Everyone after that is almost free


Unless you are in the u.s. where medication can cost more than one can pay

justender - 20-6-2024 at 23:39

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
I'm really wondering whether aviation will ever be done with electricity from batteries.


Yes.

NASA X-57 Maxwell, for one. There's allegedly a pile more, but this one I feel confident isn't a scam, cheating, or marketing sleight-of-hand.

EF2000 - 21-6-2024 at 04:12

Quote: Originally posted by justender  
Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  
I'm really wondering whether aviation will ever be done with electricity from batteries.


Yes.

NASA X-57 Maxwell, for one.

Sorry to bring bad news, but X-57 Maxwell was cancelled without flying (or even before being fully built to configuration IV) in June last year. See, for example: NASA Axes X-57 Maxwell Before First Flight - AVweb.
Well, it fared a bit better than X-33, it was at least built. I hope that the airframe will not end up in the same scrapyard as X-34 (shock content warning).