Sciencemadness Discussion Board - New proposal for EU regulations

New proposal for EU regulations

CobaltChloride - 21-2-2019 at 09:22

This law proposal has been recently made. It aims to reevaluate the legality of every chemical that can be used as an explosives precursor and possibly ban them. For now, they only want to ban H2SO4 >40% EU-wide, which would be manageable since battery acid would still be legal.
However, they are planning to implement a licensing system, which can be both a bad thing and a good thing depending on how it will be structured.
What do you think about this law proposal? Will it ruin amateur chemistry in the EU? Is it even going to go past the proposal phase?

Attachment: 20180417_regulation-proposal-europarl-council-marketing-use-explosive-precursors_en.pdf (501kB)
This file has been downloaded 564 times

Tsjerk - 21-2-2019 at 09:46

If it only requires an end-user statement to acquire the chemicals I don't see a problem. I ordered multiple compounds after filing the end-user statement.

Sigmatropic - 21-2-2019 at 09:48

Can you find annex 1? my search comes up short but apparently they define maximal legal threshold concentrations and their proposed reductions in there.

Edit:

Quote:

this proposal for a Regulation lowers the concentration limit for nitromethane in Annex I from 30% w/w to 16% w/w. Below the limit of 16% w/w, it is significantly more difficult to manufacture illicit explosives with nitromethane, while it could still be used for the legitimate purposes for which it is made available

Next up are restrictions on distillation apparatuses since that is apparently (to me), 'substantially more difficult' by their definitions. You'd obtain some azeotrope but that is the same for 30% or 16%.

Now I am unsure what ammendments are involved but they refer to the chemicals in annex 1 (shown below) as well as those in annex 2 quite alot.

Nothing to be concerned about, or is it?

[Edited on 21-2-2019 by Sigmatropic]

CobaltChloride - 21-2-2019 at 09:53

I hope it will only require such an end-user statement, but we cannot be sure yet...
Also, I haven't been able to find annex 1 either unfortunately, but I think they are referring to the annex 1 from here https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv%...

[Edited on 21-2-2019 by CobaltChloride]

Herr Haber - 22-2-2019 at 04:33

Hopelessly misguided...

Someday someone will go in a hardware store pick from the shelf a bottle of ammonia or hydrochloric acid and make his way to the swimming pool supplies.
The same could happen in a supermarket except the tablets will be smaller.

What will they outlaw then ?

VSEPR_VOID - 22-2-2019 at 20:25

God I hate Europe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXFYjQMW9yU

unionised - 23-2-2019 at 06:11

Quote: Originally posted by VSEPR_VOID

God I hate Europe.

Me too.
The bastards have stolen our UK legislation again.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosi...

Or were you somehow under the delusion that this was an EU creation?

Tsjerk - 23-2-2019 at 06:59

Quote: Originally posted by VSEPR_VOID

God I hate Europe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXFYjQMW9yU

OK, I know politics aren't allowed here, but anyway...

Really? Have you ever been in a former concentration camp? A few years ago I got an insight, I was visiting the Dachau camp and when my father was looking at the sign thanking the EU for funding the camp to keep it open for visitors, he said; thank god we have the European Union nowadays. It took me a couple of seconds, but I soon realized what he meant and that he was probably right.

OK, we might have some regulations being pushed from above, send by the EU. But then again, we suffered two major wars before some politicians had the insight that we all might be better off when working together. More so, they managed to unite us, and bind us as one.

The last time there was a major war, most of Europe was bombed to shit, literally flattening it. More than 10 million people died.

One of the things that comes from the EU is the fact regulations are discussed. Are these regulations good for all of us? Probably not. Are they on average good for the average citizen? Likely. What is the worst the EU came up with? I can't answer. What is the best? No third world war.

Some people get a state funeral for a reason. Read his wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Kohl

Quote:

As Chancellor Kohl was strongly committed to European integration and French–German cooperation in particular; he was also a steadfast ally of the United States and supported Reagan's more aggressive policies in order to weaken the Soviet Union. Kohl's 16-year tenure was the longest of any German Chancellor since Otto von Bismarck. He oversaw the end of the Cold War and the German reunification, for which he is generally known as Chancellor of Unity. Together with French President François Mitterrand, Kohl was the architect of the Maastricht Treaty, which established the European Union (EU) and the euro currency.[1] Kohl was also a central figure in the eastern enlargement of the European Union, and his government led the effort to push for international recognition of Croatia, Slovenia, and Bosnia and Herzegovina when the states declared independence. He played an instrumental role in solving the Bosnian War.

S.C. Wack - 23-2-2019 at 08:30

So it's Brussels providing European security, not Nato? Naturally from my USA perspective I suspect that a better security plan would not involve importing a permanent and growing disenfranchised underclass of a different religion and race, and the extreme politics that this situation as you know has created and which will only get worse. Such problems are purely American and Euros are way too sophisticated to have racial and religious issues, much less have them affect national and continental politics?

nitro-genes - 23-2-2019 at 08:50

Citing from the regulation proposal:

Making available, introduction, possession and use
1. Restricted explosives precursors shall not be made available to, or introduced,
possessed or used by members of the general public.
2. Paragraph 1 shall not apply to ammonium nitrate (CAS RN 6484-52-2) that is made
available to, or introduced, possessed or used by farmers for agricultural activity,
either full time or part time and not necessarily related to the size of the land area.

Ok, so you can't buy 500 ml of acetone anymore, but if you are a farmer (or pretent to be) you can order an unlimited amount of ammonium nitrate. These farmers just have these things sitting on wooden pellets in their barn, and since it is labeled clearly as ammonium nitrate it would be easy to steal by someone with bad intent. The complete absence of logic is so irritating....I just can't read through this document. Anyone can use seawater in a large scale chlorate cell and mill some aluminium foil down to a few microns.

What is also irritating is that acetone was one of the few things that could completely clean grease etc from circuit boards without leaving a trace. Now we have eco-acetone. despite it's new name, it is more environmentally unfriendly, harms the unborn child, and may be mutagenic. WTF?! Someone should make a lawsuit out of this.

I do wonder when we are going to see the first microbiology and genetic engineering experiments on the net. Some pathogens are ridiculously easy to make (some cases only specific plasmid needed) and increasing their efficacy and lethality is peanuts. Are there any laws prohibiting the writing of a detailed microbiology experiment like that?

[Edited on 23-2-2019 by nitro-genes]

Tsjerk - 23-2-2019 at 09:37

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack

So it's Brussels providing European security, not Nato? Naturally from my USA perspective I suspect that a better security plan would not involve importing a permanent and growing disenfranchised underclass of a different religion and race, and the extreme politics that this situation as you know has created and which will only get worse. Such problems are purely American and Euros are way too sophisticated to have racial and religious issues, much less have them affect national and continental politics?

I didn't exclude NATO in bringing security. I included the EU, nothing more and nothing less. Things are often less exclusive than you realize.

unionised - 23-2-2019 at 10:49

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

OK, we might have some regulations being pushed from above, send by the EU.

In this case, as I pointed out, the regulations came from us;not from above.

S.C. Wack - 23-2-2019 at 11:29

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

Things are often less exclusive than you realize.

It seems that the existence of EU offices have been unnecessary for security issues such as ww3 and Yugoslavia. But they have the power to mess up their security in ways that Nato can't help with and then try to wish their problems away by banning gasoline and glass bottles.

Tsjerk - 23-2-2019 at 12:56

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

Things are often less exclusive than you realize.

It seems that the existence of EU offices have been unnecessary for security issues such as ww3 and Yugoslavia.

Why?

VSEPR_VOID - 23-2-2019 at 19:20

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

OK, we might have some regulations being pushed from above, send by the EU. But then again, we suffered two major wars before some politicians had the insight that we all might be better off when working together. More so, they managed to unite us, and bind us as one.

The LoN after the 1st WW attempted it too, but failed because the underlying tension from the 1st world never faded. The reason the EU has not collapsed for the same reason is that most European countries do not hate each other with that old intensity. Thus, the EU did not prevent any wars in Europe; but the EU is a symptom of that underlying peace.

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

The last time there was a major war, most of Europe was bombed to shit, literally flattening it. More than 10 million people died.

50 million for the second world war, not 10.

I tend to think in larger terms, and consider everything from ww1 to the collapse of the USSR as one long war, so for me I like to think of it as tens, if not hundreds, of millions dead.

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

S.C. Wack - 23-2-2019 at 19:29

Well, I'd be surprised if you told me the EU prevented any wars. I recall the cold war as mostly being a nuclear US-Russia affair and that the news droned on and on about both Bosnia and Kosovo until suddenly US jets, bombs, and missiles are flying, then everything goes quiet.

Perhaps the EU should examine whether rules that cause the EU to fracture and foster instability and politics heading towards that of concentration camp days are good rules?

Enjoy your security state. It was fun while it lasted, Americans complaining on the internet about their access to chemicals and Europeans getting a bit smug about their access...at the time...not so long ago.

Is sulfuric acid being controlled because of explosives or because of the strange acid attack phenomenon?

CobaltChloride - 24-2-2019 at 02:43

I am not fond of this regulation proposal at all, but for now we still have time to stock up on chemicals. I think this is the best we can do if we want to continue doing our hobby.

Chemicals to stock up on include: concentrated H2O2 (if it is still available, it's not available here anymore but I do have enough stored), concentrated sulfuric acid, acetone, nitrates, nitrites even (I was once denied to buy NaNO2 because it allegedly was an explosives precursor...). What else do you think might get banned?

Tsjerk - 24-2-2019 at 10:37

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack

Is sulfuric acid being controlled because of explosives or because of the strange acid attack phenomenon?

Is it outside the UK? As far as I know the UK has come up with this rule all by themselves and they won't be part of the EU soon.

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack

Well, I'd be surprised if you told me the EU prevented any wars. I recall the cold war as mostly being a nuclear US-Russia affair and that the news droned on and on about both Bosnia and Kosovo until suddenly US jets, bombs, and missiles are flying, then everything goes quiet.

The cold war was dominated by USA and the Soviet Union influences, but the fact you don't see the influence of it, and therefor impact on the rest of the world is characteristic of American ignorance and arrogance.

Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack

that the news droned on and on about both Bosnia and Kosovo until suddenly US jets, bombs, and missiles are flying, then everything goes quiet.

Shut up. Dutch armies were there long before the Americans were there and the Dutch were betrayed by the Americans. Do you know about the "Val van Srebrenica"? Read about it. Dutch politicians took their responsibility though and resigned (1999 I believe). They weren't to blame but they were to blame for bad planning of operations. The American army operations were directly responsible and accountable for the fall, but of course they would never admit that.

[Edited on 24-2-2019 by Tsjerk]

VSEPR_VOID - 24-2-2019 at 13:37

After Article 13 passes will this site still be visible in the EU?

S.C. Wack - 25-2-2019 at 16:25

All I said was it wasn't the EU politicians who've been primarily responsible for your security (except for harming it), and Nato and more importantly the Nato treaty is not the same as the EU. Of course the UN is in the mix, but when has it been an effective force (Dutch or otherwise) since Korea, if then. Looks like I remember right:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_NATO_bombing_in_Bosnia_an...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavi...

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

What are you smoking?

Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk

So I'm supposed to be looking for someone blaming the US? Nothing to be found, except the Euro habit of making everything good = European and everything bad = American...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

"The following morning (10 July 1995), Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans made urgent requests for air support from North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) to defend Srebrenica as crowds filled the streets, some of whom carried weapons. VRS tanks were approaching the town, and NATO airstrikes on these began on the afternoon of 11 July 1995. NATO bombers attempted to attack VRS artillery locations outside the town but poor visibility forced NATO to cancel this operation. Further NATO air attacks were cancelled after VRS threats to bomb the UN's Potočari compound, to kill Dutch and French military hostages and to attack surrounding locations where 20,000 to 30,000 civilian refugees were situated."

"On 16 July 2014, a Dutch court held the Netherlands liable for the killings of more than 300 Bosniaks at Srebrenica, although the same court ruled that the Netherlands was not liable for the other deaths in Srebrenica."

Total blame for the US for sure...you're the one who brought it up...BTW were those NL bases in Germany and Italy? Did NL pay for those nuclear missiles, subs, and aircraft carriers, and the jets and satellites? Obviously EU regulations saved the day and can be forever relied on for warm fuzzy feelings.