Sciencemadness Discussion Board

A Chemopolic Question

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 09:21

Hello fellow whatever,

I am not really up to the dilettante level of chemical understanding. However I do somewhat perceive the, often unexamined and unnoticed significance of a sort of nonspecific chemical influence, like an ambient chemical zeitgeist beneath our lives and culture. Along these lines the impact of the current recreational molecules comes into play and has a political effect. A perfect example of this would be the near perfect synchronization of the rise of coca derived recreational substances and the reemergence of superficiality, as typified by disco and the Reagan administration. And of course the abandonment of LSD and other psychedelic compounds. Compounds which demand a certain amount of attention, if not seriousness, even in their total abuse, as a cheap ticket to Disneyland, as apposed to a technology, no matter how cumbersome and laden with it's own inescapable problems, that allows an alternate set of perceptions and brings into question many of the cultural assumptions that one is born into. Now of course we are seeing the tail end of the return of what was a bad idea to begin with--speed--now adays that usually means methl or coke. Though once upon a time amphetamines where still a prescription for things other than attention deficit. Along with all the hippy, alternative, life-embracing drugs (shrooms etc.), there was also this quite diverse set of drugs that were being prescribed that were all different flavors of speed. I remember an overweight friend who got a pill call obadream or some thing that sounded like that, which contained two different amphetamines a tranquilizer and a full days supply of vitamins. At any rate it took a good decade or so for the population of recreational molecule users to figure out that, as was said at the time, "speed kills". I am sure some of you remember the ad campaigns that featured the likes of Janis Joplin (alcohol got her) pleading for her fans a least not to shoot speed. And as I remember the message pretty much got across, and despite a proliferation of black beauties and other later low grade stuff, the cultural bias was firmly in the, see-things-in-a-new-light "learn from an experience" as apposed to the hyper bandwidth with zero or less content that is speed. I won't get onto an anti speed rant, but please understand that the question I am about to ask, is out of a desire to understand something about the drift of the cultural bias toward specific recreational molecules that seems anomalous to me. That is, the natural progression of the larger segment of society that is now using molecules other than alcohol, caffeine, and sugar -- recreationally, represent a sort of third wave of people, many of who's extra molecular activity are not based in the kind of intellectual exploration and existential movements that were the bias in the initial flowering of a largely botanical second wave of drug users whos focus was largely claimed to be experiential supplementation. Now it seems that our current third wave of drug users, is due for a collective crash when they finally reinvent the wheel and figure out that speed sucks. Those with a taste for the titilation afforded by faster and louder but shallower and stupider, will not seek consolation in experiential religion or psychological practices or fads, but in analgesics. I have had quite a bit of exposure to different analgesics in my life. I have medical prescriptions that would probably make me a target for a brake-in if it became known. I am not bragging I am in a continual struggle between pain relief and really not wanting all this stuff in my body. Anyhow during my life I have been exposed to many different pain relieving substances. Well I have pain, so I tend to keep current on the political mindset about pain relief because it really affects me. For instance, for many years, before I reached my current need, I made due with hydrocodone with Tylenol, simply because that's what most doctors can write and it isn't held in suspicion, and you can usually buy it OTC when OOTC (over the counter, out of the country). The rules regarding pain relief make it very clear that our society is still more against anyone experiencing undeserved pleasure, or in my case pain relief, than it is concerned for their health. If you take a thousand pills that contain any amount of tylenol at all , over your entire LIFE TIME you chances of dying of kidney failure doubles. Yet the LD 50 of tylenol and it's cumulative toxic effects are used as a way to keep people from taking more than their prescribed amount of codone at one time, even though if you have chronic pain and take you meds as prescribed, but over a long period, it will kill you, this is a small price to pay to assure the people who have been brainwashed by insane belief systems (any religion that takes the commuications of its founders and authorities as literal truth, such a Judiasm, Christianity, Islam, and the other religions of the masses, hold insane beliefs and therefore though they may be functional as members of society (like a methedone addict can be) they are at base conflicted, because their subconscious mind suspects that their own belifs are nutz even if the person has been frightened into not allowing this thought to gain a hold of the conscious mind. So like I was saying, any price you pay personally to mollify the insane assumptions of the fear infested minds of those infected in their youth by the abuse known as fundamentalism, is really worth it. Even if it means you dying of kidney failure so that you don't experience undue pleasure. The doctors cannot write a refillable prescription for major pain meds, and they are afraid that they will be persecuted by the DEA if they write what would be effective, even though all the studies show that a person who is taking meds for pain has a much easier time stopping them if his pain goes away, than someone who is in it for recreational purposes. This is my question. I have read what the former head of the DEA had to say years ago about these emerging pain relief molecules that were just vastly potent compared to something like heroin. Which I was happy to hear because, like it or not, if things progress with me and with many other people, we could run out of viable options short of something like Michael Jackson was doing. Except now there are supposed to be these hyper potent compounds. hundreds of times more potent than morphine. Well I don't think I've ever experience anything that strong in a hospital. I have however experienced all those that are commonly available for chronic pain patients and for operations and what not. Of these, the one that stands out to me, by far, isn't a shot of fentanyl or an IV of morphine. It's a little pill that is vastly potent when taken orally in very small doses: levo dromaran:

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/levorphanol....

In any sane culture this would be the compound of choice because even junkies have been shown to naturally titrate to a functional level when allowed as much heroin as they want. They won't keep doing more and more they will increase incrementally to a point where they will back off a little and then stay at that level. So like I said, due to my condition I have a natural motivation to be interested in the whole area of study. I have reviewed a lot of the counterculture material on the issue that is on the internet and done a fair amount of research. So, as I said, it seems to me that the cultural bias in the sphere of recreational molecules of this third wave, which can even be seen as a return to the first wave pre sixties orientation toward drugs as booze, will increasingly turn to the truly euphoric compounds, and away from the tweaking, self-absorbed gibberish that is the mind on speed. Speed kills (remember that campaign?) So the thing that doesn't make sense it this. We have all these junkies, and chippers, tweekers and under medicated people who suffer continually because the medical profession has become an enforcement arm of the DEA. It was even worse a few years ago. Many doctors would actually rather let a patient die in agony than change the dosing schedule recommended by the authorities. I myself watched a beloved great aunt die in agony from leukemia because her closest relatives were afraid that she would become addicted to pain killers. I know this makes no sense as she was about to die anyway, but that was the mindset, and it still persists, despite all evidence that reality is far different than the official story, and equally as different form the deconstruction of the official story.

So I am wondering where are these super analgesics that we were warned about years ago as an imminent threat, as if they were part of Saddam’s nuclear program. It didn't make sense. Why all the trouble to grow and smuggle an inferior product (street heroin) that may have been up someone's ass and have all manner of contaminants that are killing people, not to mention the fact that the substance they seem to need is so expensive because of the law, that it keeps them involved in a desperate attempt to get cash. But I really don't think there is any chance at all of a sane policy toward drugs. There is too much money in it just because it is illegal. There is too much corruption. The politicians and judges and police will never give up the money that flows to them because of the misery of a portion of the population that is in dire need of a substance that is lacking in them, and they substitute the drug of their choice for it. So I thought, Where is all the underground levo dromaran, and the rest of the really great pain relievers that the crashing tweekers either need or are gonna need soon? I thought, well it must be really hard to make, or it would be everywhere. I looked in on the various archives of some of the recreational molecule sites. Much to my surprise, they seemed to be saying that Levo Dromaran was relatively easy to make. Now I don't know. I read the thing about how to make it. I don't know enough about chemistry to know if it is easy to make or if this is something that some chemical genius had to say about it. So I am asking this here for my own intellectual edification. I mean this is just what the people dying on the streets need. It is very potent taken orally. I can attest to this from medical use. It also says it is almost or just as strong orally as when injected. Wouldn't it save a lot of lives and misery if some little pill showed up that satisfied the addicts search for euphoria at a very low oral dose and didn't make you sleepy? And it's easy to make? This doesn't make sense, and anyone who can shed any light on this anomaly from a chemical perspective, (not asking for a how to, I wouldn't understand it anyhow) Just looking for the reason why this isn't being done, at least on any level like it would need to, to supplant iv heroin and meth use. Any opinions? TIA\Jac

Vogelzang - 21-8-2010 at 10:07

Congratulations. This must be the worst give me a dope recipe question ever written on the internet. It hurts to see what drugs can do to the intellect, but I'll still probably head out to the liquor store soon, before my regular alcohol abstinance plan comes into effect again in the fall.

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 10:34

Really, You don't think this is a legitimate question? I didn't ask for a recipe did I? I simply asked for a comment on why something is not being done. I personally have quite a collection of pain killers that are prescribed to me. In fact I had to use 90mg of morphine sulphate this morning for pain. I am neither in need of analgesics or money. But I see a lot of miserable souls who are, everyday on the streets. I personally don't use alcohol as it makes people stupid. I wouldn't use morphine either if there was a non drug therapy that worked for me. So despite you instant wise kneejerk, my question is really a question. Why, with all the apparent need and market, isn't this being done? I suspect that it is not truly an easy thing to do, but I don't know, so I asked. Personally when I have break through pain my doc will usually prescribe Levo because it works and lasts very long and dosen't knock you out. I guess the pain in your life is yet to come. Except for maybe psychological pain, as refelected in your alcohol use. Psychological pain isn't anything. When you have the exquisite experience of breaking into a cold sweat and passing out from pain perhaps you wouldn't be so off hand know it all about other people's motivations.

[Edited on 21-8-2010 by JacFlasche]

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 11:22

If anyone else has an equally low ability to comprehend the written word like Vogel, I would just like to make it clear that I am not asking for a recipe. I am asking a for a general response such as, "The statments that claim this is easy to do are misleading." I do not care to know chemical specifics. In fact the link I give is a recipe, I guess. My interest is more in why this is such an unknown and forgotten drug? Because it is a wonderful drug. It kills pain dead, and doesn't make you sleepy, and you need very little of it. Yet typically if you were dying of cancer your palliative care doc would be much more likely to give you something like methadone or morphine, neither of which are in the same league as far as feelings of well being even though your body is self-destructing beneath you. I asked an honest question and this is what I get in response. I was hoping that this was not the kind of place where sarcasm needed to stand in for intelligence like in the above post by Vogel. What would possibly motivate someone to make a post like that. Feelings of superiority brought on by deep seated fears? Who knows? I was expecting a little more from this site. Like perhaps a response form grown ups. And here is a question for you. If I were, or someone was, asking for a "recipe" you must be very blinded by the overall consensus reality that has been foisted upon you to automatically assume a condemning tone. The real fact is you don't know what will do any particular individual good or harm. Or maybe you just don't know how to really be anonymous on the internet so you feel compelled to exhibit asinine behaviour in your compulsive response. Or maybe, and this is my guess, outside of a very narrow field you are not very intelligent and really didn't comprehend my post. Judging by you instant pedestrian hostility that's where I would place my bet.

turd - 21-8-2010 at 11:49

There are economic, pharmacological, societal and other reasons. But your question has little to nothing to do with organic chemistry. It is not really original either. Personally, I wonder why there isn't much more 2C-B instead of MDMA on the streets. In any case: wrong forum - try "whimsy".

PS: Your question can probably be condensed to two or three sentences, please don't make a huge novel out of it.

zed - 21-8-2010 at 11:54

Perhaps folks on this site, were expecting a little less from you.

I'm not criticizing the quality of your writing. But, I am suggesting that there is an over-abundance of it.

Refresh your memory, regarding the crafting of a concise, readable, communication.

"The Elements of Style".........Strunk and White.

Get to the point. Omit needless words.



[Edited on 21-8-2010 by zed]

[Edited on 21-8-2010 by zed]

devongrrl - 21-8-2010 at 12:08

What a wall of text, I didn't even bother reading it.

Perhaps you should learn about paragraphs.

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 12:08

So far lots of criticism. No responses

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 12:12

Why would someone comment on something they didn't bother to read?

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 12:15

Sorry to upset your homeostasis. Obviously hostility is the cultural norm here and that leaves me out. bye bye

entropy51 - 21-8-2010 at 12:20

Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
Obviously hostility is the cultural norm here and that leaves me out.
It is not! And we'll flame the hell out of anybody who says it is.

zed - 21-8-2010 at 12:23

Or perhaps, your megalo-maniacal babbling, induces just criticism, that you interpret as hostility.

Sandmeyer - 21-8-2010 at 12:30

Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
OOTC (over the counter, out of the country)


Hehe, I didn't know that one :D

EDIT: 100 bucks that this thread will become most popular on forum if it dosen't get locked, 100 bucks! :D

[Edited on 21-8-2010 by Sandmeyer]

Magpie - 21-8-2010 at 12:57

Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
Sorry to upset your homeostasis.


You have not upset my homeostasis. You have perturbed my karma, and that is much worse.

rrkss - 21-8-2010 at 13:09

Maybe if you rephrase your question into one paragraph or two at the most, I'll bother to read it and give you an answer.

Nicodem - 21-8-2010 at 13:19

Damn! It is in oportunities like these that I wish I never was a moderator. Do I really have to read several kB of unparagraphed text just to check if it is posted in the wrong forum section?

Anyway, now that I'm done I might as well reply or else I will feel stupid for having read all that. I guess most replies above were born out of the same need.
Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
I am asking a for a general response such as, "The statments that claim this is easy to do are misleading."

The statements that claim this is easy to do are misleading.

Trust me. Levorphanol is not easy to synthesize. Well, it is easy compared to the total synthesis of, let's say Salvinorin A, but it is not equally easy as the synthesis of several much more potent mu agonists. So, this could be one of the reasons why it does not appear on the black market. Nobody profit oriented would chose to have it synthesized when there are simpler and more potent stuff available. It could originate on the street as a diversion from legitimate sources, though.
But this it can be the only reason, because you don't see much else but occasionally fentanyl on the black market when it comes to opioids. I like to think, but I'm sure I'm self deluding myself, that one of the most important reasons is in that to being able to synthesize such compounds one needs to study for years and that in this process he forgets about the original goal and builds up some ethical barriers disallowing him from doing something so idiotic as making opiods for money. But when I start to think rationally I come to think the main reason is much more banal. Something like criminals and traders thinking like: "Why bothering? We have a cheap supply of heroin from Afghanistan and heroin is what our customers want. Only an idiot would change business when the business runs smooth and perfect."

Vogelzang - 21-8-2010 at 14:51

I was convinced that the first post was an amphetamine fueled rant until I got to the part about the narcotics.

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 15:31

They are not really without paragraphs, their just not little paragraphs. Anyway thanks for slogging through a post that obviously has no value in any of the thoughts expressed in it.

Your response makes sense. For the most part. Thanks

I don't have any connection to any black market personally, but I have done some lurking in pain groups and even what I would consider addict groups. No I am not the type of individual that takes photos of his medications and posts them as pinups for junkies. Very few of these people would switch places with me no matter the access to meds.

Levo is hard to make. I suspected as much.

My view that has emerged from a survey of various forums more or less devoted to drug abuse know how, leads me to believe that these people hate heroin. Or rather they hate the heroin that they are able to obtain. You don't know how many time I stopped myself from making derisive posts to people who's life came to center around not being sick. But the truth is that I am not the same as them chemically. I can tell this by the simple fact that I can have hundreds of fast release Oxycontin or morphine sulphate on hand and not take any, and feel good about it. Sure if I am coming out of a bad period I taper off, but I can do this in just a few days and until the pain returns I am fine with how I feel.

This is just not true of these people. And it doesn't seem to me that it is a matter of moral superiority or will power or any of that nonsense. We are chemically different. I have seen the same thing with some people and alcohol. It was like something was always missing in their metabolism until they start drinking, usually as a teenager, and once they started it's too late.

People have different pain thresholds and much different responses to pain meds, so government interference in something that should be the sole province of medicine becomes a road to a political or law enforcement career by people who are generally amoral, as regards the bodies they step on to advance.

In my opinion anyone who would produce a quality product and make it available to these poor desperate souls is acting morally. Much more morally than guide lines that do not even take into account factors like 10% percent of the male population does not have any response to codeine, but that is most likely the only pain med that will be offered them by their GP, and if they complain about them not being effective or about the damage that tylenol does to humans, it is considered as a matter of policy to be drug seeking behavior. Or the fact that super intelligent mice were found to be super sensitive to pain when they were genetically engineered. Or the fact that drug seeking behavior is entirely appropriate if you need drugs.

It's just a friggen witch hunt. That people build careers on. It's the same thing as the Inquisition. It's all based in lies like the total insanity that a huge portion of humanity accepts as truth because of childhood conditioning.

If you actually think that something like black tar heroin is what addicts want you need to go on some of these forums and read how dismal and hopeless and lost in pain, unable to stop themselves, and just wanting to feel normal these people are. This is the only choice that we as a society have offered to these people. What you may consider a moral concern, I consider a chemical concern, even though I know nothing about chemistry outside of broad generalizations and you know much.

If someone were to offer these people a way to have meds and not be totally debased by their need, because of what we allow in our name, via the government, and support because of fear and ignorance, to me that would be the moral person, and why shouldn't they make some money doing it. Do you work for free? Almost every public policy ends up being the opposite of it's initially stated purpose. The only reason that these things are a danger and unhealthy is because we make it that way and ignore all the evidence that is available from more caring societies that have had the courage to question the heartless power elite that establish policies that create problems, that they can then rise to power campaigning against. Don't Americans ever get tired of being dupes of their keepers?

I hope these paragraphs are small enough for everyone. I checked with my friend the mTV video editor and he said they should not present a problem to you all.

[Edited on 21-8-2010 by JacFlasche]

[Edited on 21-8-2010 by JacFlasche]

entropy51 - 21-8-2010 at 15:44

Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
In my opinion anyone who would produce a quality product and make it available to these poor desperate souls is acting morally. Much more morally than guide lines that do not even take into account factors like 10% percent of the male population does not have any response to codeine, but that is most likely the only pain med that will be offered them by their GP, and if they complain about them not being effective or about the damage that tylenol does to humans, it is considered as a matter of policy to be drug seeking behavior. Or the fact that super intelligent mice were found to be super sensitive to pain when they were genetically engineered. Or the fact that drug seeking behavior is entirely appropriate if you need drugs.

It's just a friggen witch hunt.
As a physician, I can state that this is utter tripe. There are many other meds that we can and do prescribe for patients if the standard meds are ineffective. Many of them contain no tylenol.

Drug seeking behavior is not the same as people in pain who seek relief. Physicians are well trained to distinguish between these two groups. Few of us are the idiots that you would make us out to be.

hinz - 21-8-2010 at 15:48

Quote:

...I checked with my friend the mTV video editor...


If strange persons are appearing next to you while doing drugs, you definitely do too much drugs.

And in case you feel any mercy for heroin addicts, I don't.
These people had at least a functional brain before doing this shit, so they could have thought about the consequences.

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 15:54

As a physician I would expect nothing other than for you to defend your monopoly. And you have obviously never been on the other side of the prescription stick.

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 15:59

Quote: Originally posted by hinz  
Quote:



And in case you feel any mercy for heroin addicts, I don't.
These people had at least a functional brain before doing this shit, so they could have thought about the consequences.


I don't feel mercy. Mercy is not a feeling. I am not judging them so there is no need for mercy.

I do however feel compassion for them, and it seems you don't. Because of this I now feel compassion for you though. If you have great luck, someday you will too.

Sandmeyer - 21-8-2010 at 16:52

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
As a cancer survivor, I feel confident in saying you are full of shit.


Sorry to hear, what type of, if I may ask? I wonder since I'm at times preoccupied thinking about nasty diseases.

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 17:09

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
As a physician I would expect nothing other than for you to defend your monopoly. And you have obviously never been on the other side of the prescription stick.
As a cancer survivor, I feel confident in saying you are full of shit. I know about pain in ways that you could not possibly imagine.

Everybody wants to be a physician, but few of us have the intestinal fortitude to go to medical school.

I did, and you don't.

Why don't you go troll somewhere else?



Yeah it's the old I'm a physician god complex. You sir are surely superior because you attended medical school. You must have great grit and fortitude and humility. I salute you sir and all the rationalizations that support your superior posturing. God speed. You have even survived the great peril that your ego could expand to such a degree that you brain died and you started tossing inane disparaging remarks. Aside from that good luck with the cancer, truely wish at least your body well.

MagicJigPipe - 21-8-2010 at 17:20

"These people had at least a functional brain before doing this shit, so they could have thought about the consequences."

Such closed-minded pomp. How different you would probably feel if a loved one was affected in this way.

I think this thread should be closed. I can see this headed in the wrong direction.

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 17:29

How do I close it?

entropy51 - 21-8-2010 at 17:43

Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  

Yeah it's the old I'm a physician god complex. You sir are surely superior because you attended medical school. You must have great grit and fortitude and humility.
Nothing godlike about it. We just happen to know things that you don't because we had a lot of training in them and passed many exams to prove that we know it. That's the reason that we are allowed to practice medicine and prescribe medications. If you think that's a monopoly, maybe you should consider that physician assistants, nurse practitioners, and some places psychologists and pharmacists are also allowed to prescribe. It's the training, pure and simple.

[Edited on 22-8-2010 by entropy51]

Sedit - 21-8-2010 at 17:44

Quote:
Psychological pain isn't anything.

Well you have already pissed me off with the obvious fact that you are dismissing something you appear to have no experiance with while at the same time suggesting that others who are acting the same towards you(acting thru unfounded bias and ignorence) are all wrong. But I will attempt to look past this incomplete thought of yours for the time being and move on.
Quote:
It's just a friggen witch hunt. That people build careers on. It's the same thing as the Inquisition. It's all based in lies like the total insanity that a huge portion of humanity accepts as truth because of childhood conditioning.


Not entirerly correct. This is not a witch hunt. That would imply they do not understand what they are dealing with where as in this case they know full well. When someone is addicted to heroin they sell him methadrone. Why you may ask? Because they can't sell him heroin so they chose the next best thing. Given that I work with alot of dope addicts I can assure you they make no distinction between the two.

@entropy
Quote:
Drug seeking behavior is not the same as people in pain who seek relief. Physicians are well trained to distinguish between these two groups. Few of us are the idiots that you would make us out to be.


I disagree, those seeking drugs in many cases are the same type of people as those looking for relief. The difference is they are not looking for relief of physical pain as much as psychological, AKA the pain thats not real according to our host, however if you look around you will find few successful people who are 100% sober. Everyone even if they don't truely admit it are looking for a change in perspective because of a brain and body not designed to function in todays enviroment. I draw little distinction between physical and phychological pain since I feel one is a projection of the other.



@Host
Also please understand that your physical pain is in good chance caused by the pain killers your taking and opiates are by far the WORST pain killers one will ever aquire. There rebound on the mental AND the physical is terrible. Someone can have no back pain but I can assure you that after a week or more of hydrocodone they will experiance lower back pain from spasmatic mussles within two days of discontinuation.

When the cure is the cause of the fever I feel alternative paths should be sought.

entropy51 - 21-8-2010 at 17:50

Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
How do I close it?
Oh you think you own the thread, just because you started it? You wish you could close it to prevent further analysis of your progressive ideas about drug abuse? Sorry dude, it doesn't work that way.

Next time think twice before kicking the hornet's nest.

Sedit - 21-8-2010 at 17:54

Wasp nest is that way,
:*:Shameless plug alert:*:
http://www.thevespiary.org

entropy51 - 21-8-2010 at 17:59

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
I draw little distinction between physical and phychological pain since I feel one is a projection of the other.
OK, I admit Sedit has an intuitive feel for it. Some of us just had to study it in school to get it right.

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 18:05

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
Quote:
Psychological pain isn't anything.

Well you have already pissed me off with the obvious fact that you are dismissing something you appear to have no experiance with while at the same time suggesting that others who are acting the same towards you(acting thru unfounded bias and ignorence) are all wrong. But I will attempt to look past this incomplete thought of yours for the time being and move on.


You are quite right. What I intended to convey is that psychological pain is not anything in comparison to exquisite physical pain. But to tell you the truth I was only considering what could be classified as normal psychological pain. Certainly many abnormal psychological conditions can be every bit as excruciating as even exquisite physical pain. And at that level it is often clearly evident that they interact, causing spasms and contortions.

Sedit - 21-8-2010 at 18:08

Maybe abit intuitive, but years experiance with the desperate and the addicted kind of gives you a good sence of whos here in it for what reason. Esp when you have known the people years before any drug use became a factor so that you have a baseline for comparison. Theres a certine look of sadness, even when they smile, in the eyes of those looking for relief where as theres emptyness in the hardcore addicts smile. I still feel the hardcore addict started somewhere beit as a pain relief or as a mental relief. Overall abuse of any substance will lead to a horrible end overall.

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 18:22

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
Quote:



Quote:
It's just a friggen witch hunt. That people build careers on. It's the same thing as the Inquisition. It's all based in lies like the total insanity that a huge portion of humanity accepts as truth because of childhood conditioning.


"Not entirerly correct. This is not a witch hunt. That would imply they do not understand what they are dealing with where as in this case they know full well. When someone is addicted to heroin they sell him methadrone. Why you may ask? Because they can't sell him heroin so they chose the next best thing. Given that I work with alot of dope addicts I can assure you they make no distinction between the two.

You are assuming that the persons who hunted witches didn't know that they were burning innocent usually defenseless old women because when convicted of witchcraft typically the person who accused them received a portion of the convicted witches possesions. But I guess that is not really common knowledge.


As to your other point. I assure you that there is a huge preference in the addict community for heroin over methadrone. Possibly because the amount of methadone they receive isn't as strong as their natural titration on the street. I don't know. But I do know that you can buy methadone on the street and it is usually sold by junkies who are selling it to by heroin. At least on the east coast which remains mostly white heroin this is true.

@entropy
Quote:
Drug seeking behavior is not the same as people in pain who seek relief. Physicians are well trained to distinguish between these two groups. Few of us are the idiots that you would make us out to be.


I disagree, those seeking drugs in many cases are the same type of people as those looking for relief. The difference is they are not looking for relief of physical pain as much as psychological, AKA the pain thats not real according to our host, however if you look around you will find few successful people who are 100% sober. Everyone even if they don't truely admit it are looking for a change in perspective because of a brain and body not designed to function in todays enviroment. I draw little distinction between physical and phychological pain since I feel one is a projection of the other.



@Host
Also please understand that your physical pain is in good chance caused by the pain killers your taking and opiates are by far the WORST pain killers one will ever aquire. There rebound on the mental AND the physical is terrible. Someone can have no back pain but I can assure you that after a week or more of hydrocodone they will experiance lower back pain from spasmatic mussles within two days of discontinuation.

When the cure is the cause of the fever I feel alternative paths should be sought.



This is not my experience at all. In fact I just heard an expert on On Point the other week state that the opiates are absolutely one of the least harmful drugs you can use. Unless you are shooting shit into your veins in unsanitary conditions. That is a killer. The lower back pain is probably caused by inactivity. I have use thousands of hydrocondone with no such effects. But I keep active as I am able.

Sedit - 21-8-2010 at 18:35

"This is not my experience at all. In fact I just heard an expert on On Point the other week state that the opiates are absolutely one of the least harmful drugs you can use. Unless you are shooting shit into your veins in unsanitary conditions. That is a killer. The lower back pain is probably caused by inactivity. I have use thousands of hydrocondone with no such effects. But I keep active as I am able. "

Inactivity? I dream for the day, however I would like to hear the conditions of this major pain your speaking of. Where is it, causes of it ect... all of this is relevent to weather or not opiates would be effective. And no, in no way are opiates truely safe for you. The lest harmful drug I know of currently being perscribed for pain is Cannabinoids. Oddly enough its the most contriversal pain medication out there.

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 18:40

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
How do I close it?
Oh you think you own the thread, just because you started it? You wish you could close it to prevent further analysis of your progressive ideas about drug abuse? Sorry dude, it doesn't work that way.

Next time think twice before kicking the hornet's nest.


Damn you are on a delusional ego trip. I hardly consider this a hornets nest or anything that I wrote as a kick. I know everyone wants to be like you, but can't, and that is the bedrock of your reality but consider that I was not commenting on you at all before you took up your doc flag. I was only reporting my experience with the medical profession as regards pain abatement. Now I understand that according to you I could not possibly understand the profound pain that you have experienced. However some of you comments are so childish that I would be ashamed to have written them, and this makes me question your integrity on every level. "I went to med school and you didn't." Really smacks of the schoolyard. "Everyone wants to be a physician." Don't you understand how pathetic this is. Even for a med school graduate-- especially for one. I am sorry sir I can respond to you no further because it can only possibly lead to further derision of your profoundly laughable posturing and I find that a less than desirable impulse on my own part. So have the last word like a good little deluded egocentric and you can wonder off with a somewhat intact self-concept -- humorous as it may be to others.

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 18:49

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
"

Inactivity? I dream for the day, however I would like to hear the conditions of this major pain your speaking of. Where is it, causes of it ect... all of this is relevent to weather or not opiates would be effective. And no, in no way are opiates truely safe for you. The lest harmful drug I know of currently being perscribed for pain is Cannabinoids. Oddly enough its the most contriversal pain medication out there.


I like your quotes. I am happy with my present physicians, one of them actually saved my life, but thanks for the concern.

In my opinion cannabis doesn't really stop pain, it just makes things interesting despite the pain, but it does go a long way in making pain meds work better and therefore making an effective dosage smaller. That's my experience. It could be placebo effect I guess, but that works for me too;)

JacFlasche - 21-8-2010 at 18:53

Good night all and God bless. Its been a real experience. Almost singular.

MagicJigPipe - 21-8-2010 at 20:38
Quote:

Not entirerly correct. This is not a witch hunt. That would imply they do not understand what they are dealing with where as in this case they know full well. When someone is addicted to heroin they sell him methadrone. Why you may ask? Because they can't sell him heroin so they chose the next best thing. Given that I work with alot of dope addicts I can assure you they make no distinction between the two.


I really hate doing this but I am going to say that you are either a liar, purposefully spouting misinformation or have completely misunderstood what "dope addicts" were telling you. It is an absolute distortion of the truth to the highest degree to say something like, "addicts, in general, make no distinction between heroin and methadrone (sic)".

This is absolutely and completely false and I hope you will admit this and just move on. I don't like misinformation being spread.

If you would like me to go into the details of this argument, by all means tell me I'm wrong.

Sedit - 21-8-2010 at 20:59

Sorry MJP I am personally not a huge fan of opiates however one of these folks just told me yesterday that methadone hes on is just like heroin. This is a general consensus with this group of folks. The only logical conclusion to this is that they do not distinquish between methadrone and heroin very much.

As far as misunderstanding the "dope addicts" or atlest the main conversation that peaked my curiousity, It went as such. The other person BTW is a 155 lb male with a persription to fentanyl as well if that matters in anyway.

Him: Blah Blah Blah,,, im perscribed to fentanyl(shows patch) and methadrone.

Me: "I never tried methadrone. .... never really had any desire to"

Him: "Really? Why dude? Its great man, its exactly like ....well........ you know, whatever...... maybe a little bit better...."




The .."whatever" part was because we had company with who he didnt feel like sharing that information with but he and I know that it indeed ment heroin without the slightest doubt.

Iv never taken nither methadrone or Heroin without the slightest desire to do so, so I would not know exactly where to comment on any of this other then hear say but I can assure you from a visual observation I can not tell the difference between methadrone and Heroin.

[Edited on 22-8-2010 by Sedit]

MagicJigPipe - 21-8-2010 at 21:19

I've never heard any heroin addict say that methadone is the same. They will say methadone CAN get them high but for some reason they prefer heroin. These types of addicts seem to be after the instantaneous "rush" type high that apparently comes from IV administration. Although I agree that, technically, methadone and heroin shouldn't be that different if dosages were adjusted and tolerance taken into account (despite methadone having a much longer half-life), I have never met a heroin addict that would ever choose methadone unless they were trying to get their life straight.

I find this strange, however, because methadone's half-life is so much longer. It would make sense to me that they wouldn't have to keep shooting up every few hours. But see, that's not the point, they just want the instant gratification that heroin can give but methadone can't (sometimes I wonder how much of this is psychological; although I do somewhat understand the biochemistry of it all). It is somewhat hard to understand but that's the way it is.

Sedit - 21-8-2010 at 21:37

It sounds as it may have something to do with the fact that the majority of the population I have spoken with from the area forgos IV an administer the substances via intranasally( atlest as far as I know at the moment). Some may argue that this is not a true addict but I assure you that someone who makes this a daily chore is indeed addicted. Given his daily intake of opiates I am convinced the fellow I spoke with would suffer greatly in the case of abrupt discontinuation if he managed to survive at all.

I have no intention of spreading misinformation as well as I have no intention of spreading bias but the conclusions I have come to are based on first person accounts and I am left to interperate them to the best of my abilitys,

MagicJigPipe - 21-8-2010 at 21:53

Being addicted has nothing to do with route of administration or type of drug. To put it simply, being addicted to something is not being able to quit even though your use is having negative consequences that outweigh the benefit of using. And remember, addiction, tolerance and dependence are three different yet often related things. I won't go into here unless someone specifically requests it.

zed - 22-8-2010 at 00:27

If you are an opiate addict, being a chemist is very helpful. You can get your dope for almost free. It won't protect you from the long term psychological deterioration associated with opiate addiction, but it will keep you off of the streets, and if you are careful....out of jail.

My buddy Dr. Death, maintained a ferocious opiate addiction for some years, by the simple expedient of making his own stuff. Didn't sell much. Didn't have to.

He got crazier and crazier as time went by, skinnier and skinnier, and more and more obnoxious. Made etonitazine, china white, etc... You name it, he made it, and then he took mountains of it. By the time he was done, it was hard to feel anything but pity for him. He had become a pathetic wretch.

Seeking oblivion by shutting down your higher brain functions, isn't a reasonable long term method for assuaging psychic agony. Short term, possibly.

Unfortunately, the tendency to abuse, and addiction, is very widespread. Some can take it or leave it. Many cannot; they lose all control and plunge headlong into addiction, if the means are available to them.

Personally, I have no problem taking a big bottle of oxycontin, and flushing it down the toilet. It doesn't appeal to me, and I don't care about it. In the past, I sometimes passed-on my unwanted medications to friends. This was usually a big mistake. Very quickly, they would become sick and crazed. And sometimes, they would develop serious legal problems.

I generally favor freedom of choice in most areas of life. If folks universally showed good judgement, and confined themselves to modest opiate consumption, I would favor complete otc legalization. As the world actually exists, I feel we must restrict access.

Pretty much, for the same reasons, that we don't give machine guns to monkeys.





[Edited on 22-8-2010 by zed]

Nicodem - 22-8-2010 at 03:09

Quote: Originally posted by JacFlasche  
Levo is hard to make. I suspected as much.

The problem is that, even if you are up to the racemate, the synthesis uses some unpleasant steps. Already the first step, the synthesis of 2-(cyclohexa-1,4-dien-1-yl)ethylamine calls for a Birch reduction in liquid ammonia. Chemists rather avoid such reactions when possible. For a similar number of synthetic steps or less, with the difference that they are all trivial and straightforward, you can make fentanyl analogues, for example. With even less troubles and synthetic steps you can make nitazene compounds. All are considerably more potent than your "Levo" and the syntheses are more easily upscaled, so that those interested in profit would be unlikely to chose levorphanol for their nefarious business.
Quote:
My view that has emerged from a survey of various forums more or less devoted to drug abuse know how, leads me to believe that these people hate heroin. Or rather they hate the heroin that they are able to obtain.

The main reason is probably that consumers can not buy heroin itself on the black market, but are offered only mixtures of heroin diluted to 5% or less with all kind of crap. When they accidentally buy heroin instead, usually the first one to use it dies. But if they hate it so much, why do they still use it? Perhaps they just lye to you and themselves, and they love it regardless of everything. Personally, I still don't really understand why some people like narcotics (or TV, religion, alcohol, consumerism, leaders...). They are boring, sedative and make you feel like you were either unborn or dead. Ideal drugs to avoid. Their only usefulness is their ability to alleviate pain, but even then they become more or less useless as they start to promote pain once you become tolerant. So even in this respect they are only useful for a short term use. I think one really needs to be fucked up by being raised in a fucked up society by a fucked up family to consider narcotics (or TV, religion, alcohol, consumerism, leaders...) as a cure for their trauma. But then I tend to think that nearly everything that could have been fucked up was already fucked up long time ago and thus everything is considered just normal as it is, even the use of narcotics. So go on and use them.
Quote:
We are chemically different.

No, we are just different and have a different background (having been fucked up differently). It is not about chemistry.
Quote:
In my opinion anyone who would produce a quality product and make it available to these poor desperate souls is acting morally.

Since we are different, we have very different opinions and here my opinion is diametrically opposite to yours. Perhaps because I don't believe people have souls and thus can't consider them "poor desperate souls". If I would start thinking in such gnostic terms, then I could just as well take it to the extreme and consider the chemists involved in the production of Zyklon B as acting morally. But I can't. I'm agnostic so I'm forced to stick to solid ethics and "opioids for the masses" just don't add up in my calculations.

MagicJigPipe - 23-8-2010 at 21:32

In principle at least, criminalization of drugs is similar to criminalization of any molecule or collection of molecules (or atoms) that one can use to harm themselves or sometimes others.

The ONLY difference here are people's perceptions of the drugs we love to hate and the effect various substances have on society.

For example, a combat knife can be used to kill and so can heroin but the difference lies in numbers (and intent of design). In fact, the knife could be considered somehow worse because it was designed specifically to kill. Again, the difference lies in the numbers or, alternatively although not mutually exclusive of course, it lies in what people consider moral and "good". Drugs and addicts are looked down upon in our socity but knives and knive owners are not. This could come right back to the numbers, however.

For some reason what I have just written seems weird. Ah screw it, I'm throwing it out there.

JacFlasche - 23-8-2010 at 23:44
Quote:
We are chemically different.

No, we are just different and have a different background (having been fucked up differently).
Quote:
It is not about chemistry.





Here I disagree with you. It's all about chemistry. Not the kind that takes place in vivo but in vitro. Did I get that wrong? Not the kind that takes place in glass, the kind that takes place in a living organism.

I for instance cannot take my pain meds too close to bed time because they will keep me up all night. This is sort of anomalous but not rare. Most people get sleepy. I could give example after example. I won't because they are too easy. Think of all the complications from taking drugs that a very few people have but are printed as possible side effects. That's all chemistry. How about how different folks react to stress. Chemisrty once again.

How many neuro peptides are there hundreds? thousands? Every organ in your body excretes hormones of some type even your muscles. All chemistry. It's all chemistry. Even what people refer to as God. This is a chemical state within them.

Scans have proved that a nun at prayer is doing the same thing metabolically, lighting up the same areas of their brain as a yogi in samadi. Chemistry once again. Weird dreams, OOB experiences, psychotic reactions: chemistry. Physical.


To quote Carlos Dwa. . . . "Even your most ethereal yearnings can be weighed upon the scales of my upright serpent.". . .


The scales being the left and right hemispheres of the brain and the upright serpent being the spine.

Rogeryermaw - 24-8-2010 at 21:05

it seems to me you answered your own questions, albeit in a confusing and convoluted way. the simple answer is this: MONEY period. end of line. if i can sell you five pills that will make you feel well perhaps even to the point of being able to go without meds for several days versus selling you a huge array of medications that 1: may or may not help your status, 2:ensure that you have to keep taking them without fail to receive any relief and 3: may require other meds to counteract the negative side affects, which do you think will line my pockets more? now, with that in mind, think about the people who examine patients and prescribe meds...U.S. govt and pharmaceutical companies included...is it more productive for them to get you in and out well and on your way or is it more so to keep you coming back? this is the number one reason we still have cancer and aids and m.s. and muscular dystrophy and a whole host of other "incurable" diseases. THE MONEY IS IN THE TREATMENT NOT THE CURE!! it is a cold, hard, sad fact but a fact nonetheless.

Rogeryermaw - 24-8-2010 at 21:16

Oh, and Nicodem? T.V. is awesome. it contains the simpsons! don't get me wrong, i could sleep many happy nights after destroying MTV studios and so many of the morons who advocate public idiocy with no accountability. but without tv i would have to entertain my wife more often and would get less lab time so it has some uses after all!

Rogeryermaw - 24-8-2010 at 21:29

Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
"This is not my experience at all. In fact I just heard an expert on On Point the other week state that the opiates are absolutely one of the least harmful drugs you can use. Unless you are shooting shit into your veins in unsanitary conditions. That is a killer. The lower back pain is probably caused by inactivity. I have use thousands of hydrocondone with no such effects. But I keep active as I am able. "

Inactivity? I dream for the day, however I would like to hear the conditions of this major pain your speaking of. Where is it, causes of it ect... all of this is relevent to weather or not opiates would be effective. And no, in no way are opiates truely safe for you. The lest harmful drug I know of currently being perscribed for pain is Cannabinoids. Oddly enough its the most contriversal pain medication out there.


i won't even begin to pretend i know about pot's ability to help with pain but i do have a very good friend i grew up with who moved to colorado. he destroyed his bottom 3 vertebrae from a ladder accident and his doctor prescribed him medical mari. he doesn't claim extensive pain relief but when we speak on the phone i can tell a huge difference in his demeanor. as in "i'm still in pain but it's under control now." which is hard to understand. we both grew up in texas and there aren't many places you can get mari any cheaper so we both had our time with it but i can say i never thought it could help manage pain. i guess my old chum is a testament to the untapped medical properties of A FREAKIN PLANT!!! its a plant. sticks out of the ground. dirt, water, sun...but its illegal? gimme a effin break

hissingnoise - 25-8-2010 at 02:43

Quote:
It's a plant.

All medications have their origins in plants!
Marijuana seems to control pain by elevating the mood of the sufferer. . .
Just say Now!

quicksilver - 25-8-2010 at 07:02

ANYONE who has first-hand seen serious suffering (& gives a shit) wants the person suffering to feel better.

I couldn't care less what the individual uses so long as it doesn't affect me (if he want to use Marijuana or Heroin, I am fine with it). I heard SO MANY people (both professional & non-professional alike pontificate about what someone with serious pain or suffering SHOULD use....

It's not their pain! Let them alone. People talk long shit until they have someone's arm handing on by threads in their lap and the guy looking at it starting to vomit. Fuck this shit.
Many people treat farm animals better than they would treat their elderly relatives. .....Assholes.
It's mostly a bunch of political marketing crap or phony know-it-all posturing from people who have never seen the really ugly side of suffering.

Sandmeyer - 4-9-2010 at 17:41

Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem  
Damn! It is in oportunities like these that I wish I never was a moderator. Do I really have to read several kB of unparagraphed text just to check if it is posted in the wrong forum section?

Anyway, now that I'm done I might as well reply or else I will feel stupid for having read all that. I guess most replies above were born out of the same need.

Trust me. Levorphanol is not easy to synthesize. Well, it is easy compared to the total synthesis of, let's say Salvinorin A, but it is not equally easy as the synthesis of several much more potent mu agonists.


I don't understand the comparison to Salvinorin A. I mean, many structures can pose a synthetic challenge but morphinanes and Salivorin A are synthetically unrelated problems, as far as I can see.

Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem  

The problem is that, even if you are up to the racemate, the synthesis uses some unpleasant steps. Already the first step, the synthesis of 2-(cyclohexa-1,4-dien-1-yl)ethylamine calls for a Birch reduction in liquid ammonia. Chemists rather avoid such reactions when possible.


Why would you use a Birch reduction? Well, Ok, DopaMan mentiones 2-(cyclohexa-1,4-dien-1-yl)ethylamine in his messy (but funny!) writeup: http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/levorphanol.... however, there is no reason to use it for this problem as there is no need for a diene -- only one double bond is required (and that for the desired intramolecular Friedel-Crafts alkylation). Consequently, you avoid Birch entirely, by instead easily transforming cyclohexanone into masked 2-cyclohexenylethanamine* (very scalable operation). The resulting amine becomes a key precursor, via amidation, Bischler–Napieralski cyclisation followed by reduction of the imine to amine, for intramolecular Friedel-Crafts alkylation (i.e Grewe cyclization), giving morphinane framework. This is scalable, old-school chemistry and kitchen-friendly too. If there is interest SWiM can try to cover the relevant steps with references, unfortunately not now, as the SciFinder is down for maintenance right now (Sunday).

Quick googling returned: http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/prep.asp?prep=cv4p0234 -- submitted by Cope and his co-workers :o;)

[Edited on 5-9-2010 by Sandmeyer]

Sedit - 4-9-2010 at 19:52

Just a side note, the Birch reduction does not call for liquid Ammonia it only calls for a complex of ammonia with Lithium. This is semi stable at room temperature and stable on ice for quite sometime. Water is the death of it not so much heat.