Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Can we have a trade forum?

Can we have a trade forum?

peach - 25-7-2010 at 07:09

I buy and sell A LOT through eBay.

But it's fees and insistence on paypal are ridiculous. It's also pulled down a number of my listings not for being illegal but for breaking their rules with regards to things related to chemistry or medicine; e.g. I can't sell my hydroquinone because people use it to bleach their skin.

The maximum span is 10 days. So things will appear and then disappear without being noticed.

Sometimes there are also sellers who won't post outside their own country just because they can't be bothered and such.

Could we start a trade forum on here?

That would be far cheaper, we'd have a better idea who we were buying from and selling to, the reputations and complaints could be regarded as being more realistic and the items would remain up until someone bought them.

We could of coarse implement some rules with regards to chemicals and SWIMS who don't post very often. Maybe password it so people need to request and be reviewed first, or demonstrate an ability to use a chemical, responsibility and the willingness to fairly trade or swap things.

It should, obviously, not be an outlet for stores; but things members have or have made themselves.

Sometimes I have things that I don't mind giving away for free, or someone might only need a tiny amount of some reagent or catalyst to try something; which I could scoop out and post for nothing.

Swapping services, or selling them, would also be great. E.g. some of us have access to higher end analytical equipment that others could benefit from sending samples through.

I've been thinking about this for a while, but was particularly provoked as I just saw three B24 360mm QuickFit vigreux on eBay for £5, when they only other seller wants £50 for the same thing. I was typing a post out in the acquisition forum to point them out then figured "they're going to assume that's me, and it's kind of swamping this forum".

It'd be especially good if there was some feedback system on good trade / free giveaways, etc, but I don't think this forum's code supports that (can we not swap to another? I like the forum content, but the way it functions is fairly annoying).

quicksilver - 26-7-2010 at 05:46

A few people have thought about this a great deal some time back....
There are some complex issues that would need to be overcome prior to even asking permission from the site owner.

* First the legal issues. In some countries and in some states (or counties). there are laws that prohibit glassware & common items like that. Is the agenda to be one of "it's the buyer's responsibility" when in fact, often times the prosecution could spread wider? Chemicals also have a varying level of legality in sales.

* The second issue is that of being ripped off OR simply disputing the legitimacy of a description & wanting a refund. The site-owners certainly don't want to arbitrate. How is that to be dealt with? If it's simply a "buyer beware", then the likelihood of it moving beyond where it had always been is slim. {There has always been a small amount of trades and sales here and there from people who felt comfortable with each other.}

* The third issue would be anonymity. Some people don't really care; others believe that the less public the better. How would that be worked with?
The "SWIN" issue is a good example. In reality a person could post almost anything and not be prosecuted for it.
Someone posts a hole in the ground and says that they detonated something; that is NOT legally binding. It's just a picture of a hole in the ground. Or they could post a large pile of crystalline powder and say it's (whatever); it could be anything & prosecution is fairly impossible.
But yet, there are many people who DO fear their anonymity being taken & that's legitimate & I believe their concerns should be respected.

-= The likelihood is that there are more specific questions than the 3 that I illustrated. It's rather complex and many issues would need to be laid to rest before we could even move further along and make a request.

edit:

I once checked on the actual legality of the simple purchase of powdered metals as some on-line sales have strict agenda about purchasing metal powders and oxidizers.
As it turns out there is NO US law that prevents the purchase of metal powders per se'. However there are guidelines that was brought about by the CPSA in accordance with civil litigation with INDIVIDUAL sales outlets.

Some chemicals are List 1 and List 2 DEA targeted materials. Some of the laws therein had thresholds; others did not. These (American) laws change & are confusing. There are some materials that have no threshold and simple sales of any amount is not permitted. There are "watched" materials. Some are watched and followed by the DEA, DHS, Interpol, & individual countries. The idiosyncrasies are vast.
Texas (& now California) has a "glassware" law. The USA has a pharmaceutical machine law. The specifics of prosecution are muddy. many of these laws are actually used to "pad" a prosecution in an existing case to prevent simple plea bargaining. In some areas, the wording of the laws are so poor that it's safer to stay away from crossing them all together.
One of the most annoying issues is the actual shipping of various materials as the various countries have different demands on how something is to be shipped. What is perfectly acceptable in one country is a serious violation in another.

While a simple small sale with a PM for a few grams is most likely to be perfectly OK, person to person; another sale with a larger weight may become very complex.

[Edited on 26-7-2010 by quicksilver]

mr.crow - 26-7-2010 at 06:41

I think most amateur chemists want to keep a low profile. That being said I have bought something from a SM member with good results

A for sale/trade forum should viewable to members only, like References. Trades should be done in private with PM or email.

Shipping within the same country is totally ok, no one knows whats inside the box or cares as long as it is packaged properly. International shipping is too much of a pain, I wouldn't do it.

Paypal can be used to dispute transactions like on eBay.

And of course nothing illegal or suspicious in the States (where I assume the board is hosted). Every time this happens there is a huge discussion, not worth it >: ( This can be up to the Mod's discretion.

solo - 26-7-2010 at 06:58

....the forum should be a place of discussion and there are plenty of forums for the buy and sell of items....no need to duplicate services and specially with equipment and chemicals that are being watched by draconian governments as if all were for making explosives and drugs........solo

mr.crow - 26-7-2010 at 08:55

I'm getting tired of all the paranoia here >: (

And yes we already have a forum for acquisition, don't really need a separate one

peach - 26-7-2010 at 09:13

Quote:

* First the legal issues. In some countries and in some states (or counties). there are laws that prohibit glassware & common items like that. Is the agenda to be one of "it's the buyer's responsibility" when in fact, often times the prosecution could spread wider? Chemicals also have a varying level of legality in sales.

This is an issue. However, even people like Sigma are far from beyond being tricked into sending things to the wrong location. Provided there are sufficient warnings about checking the legality in your own country (given on being allowed access with an agreement to them when taking part), I strongly suspect there wouldn't be too many problems for the seller. It's unreasonable to expect even commercial sellers to validate every single outlet in each country. E.g. it's not okay for me to sell hydroquinone on eBay in the UK, but I can buy it without a chemical supplier account and so can the guys in the US.

I would also insist new particular members to this forum read the rules and suggest they as for things like identification. If I needed something odd and couldn't be bothered registering with yet another chemical company, I would have no problems signing some agreements and sending photos of ID to other members as proof of signature. The ID doesn't need all the details on it, just the signature.

Companies like Sigma won't even deal with the general public now. Which means I'd have to register as a company to buy things. Which means a company bank account and VAT tax returns, to buy a tiny amount of material to try something.

Quote:

* The second issue is that of being ripped off OR simply disputing the legitimacy of a description & wanting a refund. The site-owners certainly don't want to arbitrate. How is that to be dealt with? If it's simply a "buyer beware", then the likelihood of it moving beyond where it had always been is slim. {There has always been a small amount of trades and sales here and there from people who felt comfortable with each other.}

That'd have to be based entirely on knowing the person you're swapping with. I know what you're saying, but this isn't eGay or some other massive forum. I already know a number of the people here and what they're interested in or what they might be up to. This forum would be locked to those who don't request or aren't referenced into it by others. That would automatically knock out most of the idiots.

If we could implement some form of feedback that'd be even better. I have been on numerous forums where the members can click 'good' / 'bad' with regards to trades.

Quote:

* The third issue would be anonymity. Some people don't really care; others believe that the less public the better. How would that be worked with?
The "SWIN" issue is a good example. In reality a person could post almost anything and not be prosecuted for it.
Someone posts a hole in the ground and says that they detonated something; that is NOT legally binding. It's just a picture of a hole in the ground. Or they could post a large pile of crystalline powder and say it's (whatever); it could be anything & prosecution is fairly impossible.
But yet, there are many people who DO fear their anonymity being taken & that's legitimate & I believe their concerns should be respected.

This is where I start to have problems. If you're not doing anything illegal, there's zero issue with telling other forum members who you are. The only people who will care about that are the people ordering kilos of something odd and wanting it shipped to a PO Box, or otherwise unverifiable address. I'm talking specifically about people who don't mind others knowing their name or address.

I give these details out so often to regular companies, or during eBay transactions, there's absolutely no way I could count them. As I say, the only people bothered about that will be the ne'er-do-wells.

I have significant experience with the law with regards to this kind of thing. I am happy to say, a lot more than pretty much everyone on this forum. One of my family members is a lawyer with a large, international law firm. Very few chemicals are illegal to sell or possess. A lot of chemicals (albeit, all of them) are illegal to possess or sell if you suspect it's being used for an illegal goal. The same applies for literally anything in life. If you put your keys between your fingers to attack someone, it's illegal. A can of hair spray is illegal if your intend to spray it in someone's eyes. The list is endless.

The difference is, having reason to believe that the person you're providing something to will use it responsibly and not illegally. This is exactly what the chemical suppliers are doing. They call you, want VAT numbers and company bank accounts to confirm that.

If you end up in court after trading something, the judge and expert witness will ask you why you thought it was reasonable to send that material. If you can say "Check my posts and his, he doesn't post about drugs / bombs all the time, provided a good reason for needing it, signed the agreement and I can be sure it's his signature", it's very hard to say you're being negligent, let alone willfully supply a crime; with the latter being the main concern.

Quote:

I think most amateur chemists want to keep a low profile. That being said I have bought something from a SM member with good results

In my opinion, it shouldn't need disputing in the first place. This isn't eBay. I talk to some of you a lot, and I've seen your posts or searched your histories. If I think you're an idiot, I won't sell it to you or buy from you in the first place.

This kind of forum would be solely for the people who put the effort in and post about things other than drugs and bombs.

And, if a problem does arise, I would like to think we'd be grown up enough (given the care we put in to the other forums) to not argue about it. We could easily have a "is this fair" section where we could post the dispute and have the other members say "yes" / "no". Easy. I suspect it wouldn't be issue however, I think some of us are grown up enough to deal with that. If a high post, highly known and rated member posts out rubbish, they'll be instantly shunned by the other members who essentially maintain the forum.

I check back here daily. If someone post me rubbish, anyone else checking back here regularly will know within 24h.

And the people who don't check back here for weeks at a time are the drug / bomb cooks, who shouldn't be allowed access to that resource to start with.

Quote:

....the forum should be a place of discussion and there are plenty of forums for the buy and sell of items....no need to duplicate services and specially with equipment and chemicals that are being watched by draconian governments as if all were for making explosives and drugs........solo

Given that there is a section of the forum titled Detritus, I disagree. Along with the other none science related forums.

There are numerous times when I only need a small amount of something to try an idea, can offer to try something for someone else, or need a service from someone else, where I could simply swap with someone else for money, good faith or interest.

I have zero interest in helping people who turn up asking "how do I make.... drug / bomb" or "I need... this drug / bomb making chemical in kilos". But I'd be more than happy to give something a try through my gear for the more normal members if they don't have the capacity to do so themselves.

I am a member of so many chemistry forums I've entirely forgotten their names and my logins, I have to guess at them when I check back.

This is the only one where I'd be willing to give out my name and details to others. Because I think a percentage of us are actually true geeks and messing around at home.

I think we're massively depleting our potential by not combining our capacities.

We should have a trade forum.

It should be locked with regards to anyone who doesn't regularly participate on none drug / bomb topics. People should need to request entry, or be referenced into it by others.

Come on guys, I think some of us are grown up enough to deal with this. Having a forum of this kind would be more secure than a number of chemical companies bother with. We're all watching each other, and the forum would have regulations. It's a shame to waste the opportunity for unnecessary fear. You don't need to be worried about that kind of thing unless you're a c(r)ook in the first place.

[Edited on 26-7-2010 by peach]

anotheronebitesthedust - 26-7-2010 at 09:56

Quote:

If you're not doing anything illegal, there's zero issue with telling other forum members who you are.

That's the same line used by police when they ask to search people's vehicles or houses.

Quote:

If you end up in court after trading something

The goal is to not get to that point.

How do you know some asshole won't send your driver's license along with your posts and private messages to the local PD? A lot of people are fucked up like that. And it's not just criminal charges people are worried about. No one likes having stormtroopers come to their house.

Polverone - 26-7-2010 at 12:12

People are already free to trade here and several have done so. If you are looking to sell, buy, or trade chemicals, post a thread about it in Reagents & Apparatus Acquisition. No, I won't interfere with trade of regulated chemicals with broad utility like iodine or benzaldehyde. Yes, I will interfere with messages offering or seeking certain chemicals that (in my judgment) are suspicious and have limited non-nefarious utility, like pseudoephedrine. I am open to reasonable arguments if you think that I have censored an advertisement in error.

I'm not going to open a separate trade forum because first, I don't think there is enough volume to justify it and second, a separate forum might give the misleading impression that there is quality control or arbitration available from the management.

A thought: a Trading Post forum?

GammaFunction - 13-2-2013 at 14:45

Might it not be nice to have a separate trading post forum on SM?

People could post lists of what surplus they have, and what things they want, with fair (ebay completed auction, for example) values. Items that are hazardous to ship or are on government restricted substance lists could be forbidden. Users could edit their posts to reflect changes in availability or wants.

For instance, I will soon have a very large number of teflon joint sleeves ($4 each, fair price), and would like some molecular sieves ($15/lb fair price), or various ground glass adapters ($12 each, fair price).

One could always use money as an intermediary, but trading seems like a nice way of getting rid of personal excesses over the long term.

elementcollector1 - 13-2-2013 at 20:51

This would be interesting, but we'd also need a seller-rating system. And spam protection (i.e. access request of Polverone or a mod).
It could theoretically work.

GammaFunction - 13-2-2013 at 22:12

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1

This would be interesting, but we'd also need a seller-rating system. And spam protection (i.e. access request of Polverone or a mod).
It could theoretically work.

It could be more about trading stuff, and not about money, so it wouldn't attract crooks. And it could be mostly low-value stuff that's a real pain to get on ebay.

We already have these threads in RaAA, but it's a bit chaotic and unorganized. And it clutters up RaAA. So rules like "Always update your post rather than reposting" and "try to reply by private message only" would clean it up a bit.

Arsole - 14-2-2013 at 21:56

I really like this idea. I agree with the request for access, and the continual updates with u2u responding. Would streamline everything for sale on the RaAA forum. My vote is cast.

elementcollector1 - 14-2-2013 at 23:00

How about it, Polverone? Thoughts?
I think there should still be a 'rating system', as well as maybe a common pricing/bartering list. As in, this amount of nitric acid is worth this many points, and this amount of sodium metal is worth that many points. Might be a little overcomplicated... but it's the closest to a fair-trade system I can think of (and unfair trades could work too, depending on the need of the reagents in question).

Unfair Trade?!

White Yeti - 15-2-2013 at 20:09

There is no such thing as unfair trade. Every commodity is worth as much as the consumer is willing to pay. The only instance where you have cheating is if you sell a broken piece of apparatus or an intentionally diluted reagent.

This would be very worthwhile for reagent trade (only) if members on this forum owned small scale production facilities. Hypothetically, let's say that 5 members construct efficient apparatuses that churn out chemicals in large quantities. Let's say member #1 makes sodium metal, member #2 makes white phosphorus, member #3 makes potassium chlorate, member #4 makes oleum or SO3, and member #5 makes bromine.

If the government doesn't stick its nose into the trade of these commodities, everyone would benefit form an increased availability of chemicals that are otherwise difficult to obtain.

elementcollector1 - 15-2-2013 at 20:39

I think there is such a thing (e.g. a liter of nitromethane for a full disitillation setup in ground glass).

mr.crow - 15-2-2013 at 20:52

Legitimate trading posts are by far the minority

That being said I have acquired sodium metal and mercury from various members, as well as tons of awesome glassware from the noble and honorable Dr.Bob

So maybe there us a future for sales and trading

International shipping as well as legal and privacy concerns need to be addressed.

Mailinmypocket - 16-2-2013 at 03:58

What about the more hazardous items and minors? This is something that I am always apprehensive about and uncertain on how it works... If you were to trade or sell something member who is underage (which is difficult to know on a forum) where would the blame fall should something happen? i.e. sodium that pops in a container and shoots a glob of it into the persons eye... Blinding them... Would it be the person who sent them the material who would be ultimately liable as the "provider"?

Same goes for poisons, flammables, oxidizers and all that good stuff that makes up a huge part of the materials we deal with routinely. Would it be wise to have disclaimers sent with anything that could present a hazard or is that just overkill, or would it even protect you at all?

KonkreteRocketry - 16-2-2013 at 04:19

Seems legit

plante1999 - 16-2-2013 at 07:01

I'm not the type of guy that would give problem because I burned myself with chemicals, but I do think a disclaimer is obligatory.

Arsole - 16-2-2013 at 21:00

I think sending a copy of the msds and paying via paypal could help with some of the liability. Minors can't use paypal right? Otherwise they would misrepresent themselves. Also verifying a birth date they provided on the account. If something did happen you could say they misrepresented themselves. I think it was said before, no explosives.

plante1999 - 18-2-2013 at 18:42

I am in conflict of interest with age regulation, but I don't think such regulation would be totally worth it. I would be for a disclaimer, and possibly a background check of the post made by the said users. Of course no explosive, who would sell explosive anyway?

PS: I can use my father paypal.

[Edited on 19-2-2013 by plante1999]

radagast - 18-2-2013 at 19:42

Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket

What about the more hazardous items and minors? This is something that I am always apprehensive about and uncertain on how it works... If you were to trade or sell something member who is underage (which is difficult to know on a forum) where would the blame fall should something happen? i.e. sodium that pops in a container and shoots a glob of it into the persons eye... Blinding them... Would it be the person who sent them the material who would be ultimately liable as the "provider"?

Same goes for poisons, flammables, oxidizers and all that good stuff that makes up a huge part of the materials we deal with routinely. Would it be wise to have disclaimers sent with anything that could present a hazard or is that just overkill, or would it even protect you at all?

I love the idea of a trading forum, but these are legitimate concerns. I'm not a regulations or criminal attorney, but off the top of my head, we'd want to research whether strict liability applies in this context (in which case, disclaimers and unawareness that the minor is a recipient may not protect you), and accomplice liability. Putting aside criminal law and regulations, there is also the concern of civil liability, which is a giant PITA, and can tie up your time and resources even if the case against you is completely meritless.

Anyway, I'm tied up for the next month or so, but will try to research the potential exposure of the site and sellers/buyers to civil/criminal liability.

GammaFunction - 19-2-2013 at 02:22

Concerning the issue of hazard, why not just ban ads for hazardous materials? This could mean corrosives, inflammables, unshippables, 'precursors', and toxins (defined by some broad rules, like 'no heavy metals' and 'LD50>5 grams').

But what I really want to say is why I think that a trading post forum is a good idea: it encourages people to snatch up bulk bargains, and share the wealth with others.

For example, I bought a whole bunch of Teflon sleeves, far more than I could ever use. I don't want to go into business selling them for cash because it is too much hassle. But if I could trade them for other people's bargain-buys, I could get stuff for almost free (and provide others with almost free stuff too). If people knew that they could trade a big lot of jointed erlenemyers for the stuff they really want, they might pounce on the lot, and share the wealth.

Or people might order wholesale tubs of useful things (molecular sieves, anyone?), and trade them for other stuff.

jamit - 19-2-2013 at 08:03

I think its a horrible idea to create a trade/sale forum. The implications, such as trying to arbitrate a possible dispute and the un-needed attention it can create if someone did anything illegal is not worth it. Plus, I feel already that many of the post where people try to sell chemicals or glassware is a real distraction from the main purpose of this forum, and that is, to discuss and share scientific and experimental knowledge about chemistry and science in general. There's too many post about, so and so, wanting to sell their stuff. Other than Dr. Bob, I find most of the advertisement "irritating" and I just ignore it. Seeing less advertisement is better.

There are too many people (mostly "new members") wanting to make a few bucks and wanting to do thing to "blow up" and "have fun" (not that I'm not into fun), rather than expressing a genuine interest in learning about chemistry and sharing their experiments... such posts are too frequent.

I check regularly on this forum (at least several times a week) and most of the daily post is done by people who want us to do their homework or is too lazy to UTFSE or wants to just blow something up for fun.

I love this forum and we can't censure what others post, but let's now answer stupid post and then turn it into a flame war!