Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Market value Vs how much you pay

D4RR3N - 11-6-2010 at 08:21

If you decided you were going to invest in Gold or silver via purchasing ingots the first thing you would probably do is to look at the current market value, the stock markets.
Now that you had an idea of the true/current value you would use this knowledge to make sure you don’t get ripped off when making a purchase.

Should not the same apply if you were buying any metal? I mean why would you/should you pay several times its actual market value?

A while back I was looking to purchase some rare earth metal from a supplier. I decided I would get it direct from a producer in China.

You can find them here:

www.alibaba.com

Most of these producers will sell a minimum of 500g which would be ok if you got it at its true market value.

What I found is that the quotes I received were massively different. It was clear to me that they wanted to sell if off at the highest possible price they could get away with.

I was thinking about this the other day and so decided to see if I could actually find the true market value of various metals. I searched around a bit and then found a few sites which list the market value of various metals.

Most of these websites require you to pay for the service but found one which will give you a rough idea for free (please tell me if you know of a better one)

Anyway I now realize the prices quoted are massively over the actual value, total rip off!

Next time I ask a producer for a quotes I think I will let them know that I am aware of the actual market value just to see how it will effect the quotes I am then given.

Maybe something like:

“ Taking into account the current market value for xxxx is ?$ per kg what is your price for a minimum order of x amount of xxxx”

Obviously the same would not apply if you were buying off ebay or a scientific suppliers.
Really we are talking 500g minimum orders direct from a producer.

I would like to know your thoughts on this, have you ever actually considered the true value of the materials you are purchasing?

As a comparison I once enquired about the price of Lanthanum metal. It was a while back now but one guy came back with a quote of around £400 (British pounds) per kg.
Just look at the graph below and you will see what a total rip off that is, shocking!

I do relies you are going to pay over the market value because of the minimum order but how much over the market value would you consider fair?



xx.JPG - 106kB

[Edited on 11-6-2010 by D4RR3N]

Sedit - 11-6-2010 at 09:01

Thats basicly what you want to track is the stock market quote of the "scrap" metal and not some list price from a distributer because like you said they want to get the most for there money as well. Watch the market, there are some good sites that will give you real time updates and treat it as you would any investment.

Can't say Iv had experiance with precious metals(I mostly buy and sell copper) as such but the general rule of thumb still stands Buy low sell high.

JohnWW - 11-6-2010 at 14:03

What is driving up the "market" price of lanthanum like that? It does not have the special uses that other rare-earth metals, either having 4f electrons or having a use like yttrium in supeconductors, have.

zed - 11-6-2010 at 14:57

Hey! You can't expect to get the ton price, when you are only buying a kilo.

That being said, you can often buy things like Gold, Silver, or Platinum......At approximately the Spot Metal Price. On E-bay! Sometimes in coin form.

More exotic metals.....Not so easy! Scientific suppliers usually want big bucks for small portions.

D4RR3N - 11-6-2010 at 14:57

Quote: Originally posted by JohnWW  
What is driving up the "market" price of lanthanum like that? It does not have the special uses that other rare-earth metals, either having 4f electrons or having a use like yttrium in supeconductors, have.



Its used in battery's as far as I know?


Anybody know of a better site for looking up current value of rare earth metals etc?

D4RR3N - 11-6-2010 at 15:05

Quote: Originally posted by zed  
Hey! You can't expect to get the ton price, when you are only buying a kilo.

That being said, you can often buy things like Gold, Silver, or Platinum......At approximately the Spot Metal Price. On E-bay! Sometimes in coin form.

More exotic metals.....Not so easy! Scientific suppliers usually want big bucks for small portions.



Most producers have min orders of 500g or 1kg.....cant see many wanting a Ton of the stuff.....But yes your right but on the other hand how much over the market value per kg can you justify selling it for x5 x10 x20?

Basically like anything in life if they think you don't know how much the actual value is they will try to rip you off big time!

Sedit - 11-6-2010 at 15:29

Quote:

Basically like anything in life if they think you don't know how much the actual value is they will try to rip you off big time!


This is very true in the lead market at the moment. I have well over 500lb of it that I WAS willing to part with seeing as most metals have gone up and the price of lead was around $1.05lb when dealing in large blocks (tons ect...). Expecting to hear a quote of around .40-.50cents a pound I was offered .03 cents a pound for the lead which is unacceptible. I just decided to wait until I found someone willing to pay a reasonible price instead of selling. To put it in perspective lead acid batteries are selling for .10cents a pound as scrap where leads only .03. Sad to say they will try to rip you off if they think you are clueless. My people are reputible dealers of scrap metals as well so imagine a fly by night company getting ahold of a sucker.

jokull - 11-6-2010 at 15:33

Prices shown in the plot you attached are effective for three month contracts (usually), so if you arrange a purchase today, the price should be mantained within that period. However, the price for this material must be associated to a reference mass unit, i.e. one oz.

Sedit - 11-6-2010 at 15:46

I ment to edit this into my last post but check here if you haven't already

http://www.metalprices.com/

not_important - 12-6-2010 at 09:19

Quote: Originally posted by JohnWW  
What is driving up the "market" price of lanthanum like that? It does not have the special uses that other rare-earth metals, either having 4f electrons or having a use like yttrium in supeconductors, have.


It's used in a number of alloys and complex mixed oxides, in part as a 'stretcher' reducing the amount of some of the other REE.

But the big driving factor was China's proclamation that it was going to be restricting exports of REE raw materials - the oxides and simple compounds. Demand has risen greatly in the last decade, they want to reserve their supplies for internal use - noting that internal use includes manufacturing of exportable products that use REE.

So right now non-Chinese users of the REE are looking at the possibility of shortages of the oxides, but they still can get - say magnets and phosphors. In a couple of years those might be export restricted, but it will still be easy to get electric motors using REE magnets, rechargeable batteries, and CFLs and white LEDs using REE phosphors. Perhaps a few years later you'll have to buy the finished goods with the electric motors and batteries in them .

That's driven up the price of all of the REE, even those without much demand for them right now. A mix of speculation and stockpiling, both in the face of uncertainty and the trickling out of various documents and directives showing China's goal of being the big player in modern materials; they been buying interests in various overseas sources of a number of important rarer elements. Think of it as a sort of Confucian-tinted mercantilism.