Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Obtaining sodium hypophosphite

jonco - 9-1-2010 at 00:08

Hi,

Does anyone know where I can buy sodium hypophosphite in the UK or elsewhere?
Most of the chemical companies here won't sell to private individuals.

Maybe I can make it, but hypophosphorous acid or elemental phosphorous cannot be obtained in the UK as well.

Thanks

Picric-A - 9-1-2010 at 02:39

You will have a very hard time buying hypophosphites, especially as your inteded use is the synthesis of illegal drugs.
Making it by the action of hot NaOH(aq) on white P would be your best option.

I swear ever other post on this forum is related to the production of illegal drugs, always made by brand new members :mad:

sonogashira - 9-1-2010 at 03:44

Someone asks where to buy an inorganic salt and is accused of making drugs! How silly :mad:

It was the same when I first came here... I asked about making aluminium chloride and had the same accusations! Unfounded and aggressive accusations; that is the real problem with this forum - not people buying inorganic salts!!! It is becoming silly recently :(

Methedrine production is unheard of problem in the uk - you have lived here longer than me and should know this.

(And t is not hard to find - check u2u Jonco) - Thankfully the whole world does not embrace stupid naive views that only use for a salt is making drugs.

Picric-A - 9-1-2010 at 04:39

Thats becuase its not just any 'inorganic salt' it is a salt which was so frequently used in america to reduce I2 to make Meth.

Just VERY strange coincidence somebody asking in their first post for an otc source of a drug precursor,

sonogashira - 9-1-2010 at 07:18

That may be so... but a very much larger use to the non-drug-obsessed (both 'for' and 'against'!) is for electrochemistry. It is beyond me why you would assume the connection - It is like assuming everyone with acetic anhydride is making heroin. Chemistry is much older than a recent american-based fashion... And I am of the old-fashioned opinion that a chemist should think like a chemist and not a member of the ignorant, paranoid and chemically-naive american media - but that is my prejudice I admit. Think what you like.


[Edited on 9-1-2010 by sonogashira]

Picric-A - 9-1-2010 at 07:37

The only fair reason for owning hypophosphite is reducing diazonium compounds.

The reason i assumed is all he said is 'Does anyone know where I can buy sodium hypophosphite in the UK or elsewhere?'
No reason why he needs it, ect + it was his first post so yes i was suspicious.

Not true- if some new memeber posted a first post saying 'where can i get acetic anhydride' or 'how can i make it' i would be suspicious, however most members asking such questions are old hands and are trusted.

Quote: Originally posted by sonogashira  
... and not a member of the ignorant, paranoid and chemically-naive american media - but that is my prejudice I admit. Think what you like.


[Edited on 9-1-2010 by sonogashira]



We are paranoid because it is drug makers/cooks who are ruining our hobby by rendering several must have chemicals unobtainable due to use in drug synthesis...
We have every reason to be paranoid, Think what you like...

sonogashira - 9-1-2010 at 08:03

I suppose it is where we differ - I would be suspicious if he came up with an excuse/'cover story' in the first post; rather than find it a comfort.

I recall an obviously very intelligent doctor being chased away with paranoia recently - "what are you, terrorist or kewl" I believe was the accusation. His crime was trying to make KCN and asking (in his first post :o) for assistance from an increasingly paranoid and unfriendly crowd.

Have a song ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYEC4TZsy-Y
"Your going to reap just what you sow."

Best wishes.

Picric-A - 9-1-2010 at 08:06

I do not care about people making KCN, if they want to kill themselves thats their buisness (of course we should try stop them :P ) My point is we must make sure if somebody is actually an interested home chemist or a cook trying to 'cook' his own drugs.
Thanks for the song btw :P

turd - 9-1-2010 at 08:57

Quote: Originally posted by sonogashira  
It is becoming silly recently :(

It used to be silly a long time ago, then it became ridiculous and lately it crossed the border to downright bizarre.
Noticed how 90% of the "illegal drug" related postings are from or responses to people who complain about too much "illegal drug" discussion?
Seriously, if when hearing the word phosphinates/phosphonates, the first thing you think about is methamphetamine, just because it may be used for that
by a few desperate junkies 6000 miles away, and then you feel the need to inform the whole world about your holy crusade, then you have issues.

But I will try to see the positive side of things - even if the quality of the chemistry forums took a massive hit because they are clogged
by a few psychotics, at least we can learn a lot about crowd psychology. Groupthink, conformism, mob mentality, it's all there. :)
Maybe instead of setting up reactions I should register accounts asking for directions on making PCP and what not just to enjoy
the resulting mess. :P

PS: To the thread starter: Red phosphorus and phosphoric acids in various reduction states are legal and easily available in many (maybe all?) countries the Schengen area.
PPS: We have hypophosphoric (or hypophosphorous, I don't even know or care) acid in our lab and I can assure you that nobody is making drugs with that.

[Edited on 9-1-2010 by turd]

DJF90 - 9-1-2010 at 09:12

Preparation would be along the lines of white phosphorus with BARIUM hydroxide (as per Vogel?) and metathesis with either sulfuric acid (not conc! H3PO2 is supplied as 50% solution commercially) if you want the acid, or an aqueous solution of sodium sulfate if you want the sodium salt.

I think you'll have a hard time finding a prep that doesnt go from elemental phosphorus (unless you go from phosphine, but then you're in the same ballpark...)

Nicodem - 9-1-2010 at 09:33

Quote: Originally posted by Picric-A  
Not true- if some new memeber posted a first post saying 'where can i get acetic anhydride' or 'how can i make it' i would be suspicious, however most members asking such questions are old hands and are trusted.

You mean that you asking questions about preparing phenylacetonitrile in your recent thread can not be considered suspicious in regard to drug cooking? Or do you now cosider yourself "old hands" and "trusted" enough for asking about preparing such precursors for illegal drugs? I wander how you would have reacted if somebody came up with the same accusations in that thread of yours, just like you did here?

JohnWW - 9-1-2010 at 10:46

What substitutes for hypophosphites as a reducing agent are there, e.g. if one wanted to reduce I2 presumably to iodide, or to reduce diazonium compounds? Any reasonably electropositive metal, e.g. Mg which is very accessible, would react with I2 to form an iodide. Or you could react it with H2 (probably either nascent hydrogen, or catalytically) directly to obtain HI. Sulfites and hyposulfites and dithionates may be another possibility.

[Edited on 9-1-10 by JohnWW]

Polverone - 9-1-2010 at 11:27

The long established rule here is that I do not approve of threads where people are seeking spoonfeeding of information for clandestine drug manufacture. An equally long established rule is that every sort of chemistry is a permissible topic of discussion if you discuss it like a scientist. If someone is asking about obtaining chemicals used in drug manufacture and using the vocabulary of a SWIMmer more than a chemist, report it and the thread will be dealt with after a moderator has confirmed your findings. The original post in this thread doesn't meet those criteria and neither does the initial response to it.

It is not permissible to turn every thread where someone asks questions about reagents or reactions that might be used in drug chemistry into an inquisition. It's distracting, it's rude, and I hope that if others feel the same about this behavior you will report it to me or another member of the staff. Sauron eventually exiled himself because he found the staff rules for acceptable and unacceptable responses to possible drug chemistry discussion intolerable. None of the current drug-bloodhounds have contributed even half as much technical information as he did. To the bloodhounds: if you think that a member is just looking for drug recipes or recipe-troubleshooting, you can keep an eye out for drug slang or requests for obvious drug spoonfeeding* and report the posts when the evidence is in place. If you have a suspicion but the member does not use drug slang or make obvious recipe-requests, you can ignore the posts, you can stop visiting the site if ignoring posts is too complicated, but you can't harass the person asking the questions. Additionally, if you're going to report some posts as unacceptable, do that without also insulting or denouncing the posts' author in the thread. That is counterproductive. If you want the "laws" of Sciencemadness enforced against lazy SWIMmers you should also abide by them yourself.

*Spoonfeeding for production of popular street drugs or immediate precursors to them, e.g. amphetamine or phenyl-2-nitropropene. Don't bother to report posts that could enable drug production but are about chemicals that aren't street drugs or immediate precursors (e.g. hypophosphorous acid and salts, diphenylacetonitrile, benzaldehydes, diethyl malonate, diethylamine...) unless the SWIM-slang is present.

[Edited on 1-9-2010 by Polverone]

ScienceSquirrel - 9-1-2010 at 12:16

As someone said above the United Kingdom does not have a problem with Meth cooking so hypophorous acid and hypophosphites are fairly readily available here.
Obtaining chemicals is not hard but it is not easy either. You are going to have to dedicate time and money to the search and the obtaining of supplies.

entropy51 - 9-1-2010 at 12:40

Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
If someone is asking about obtaining chemicals used in drug manufacture and using the vocabulary of a SWIMmer more than a chemist, report it and the thread will be dealt with after a moderator has confirmed your findings.


Polverone, I absolutely respect your right to exercise editorial control over the forum.

But your rules are not uniformly applied, or perhaps there is a problem with semantics. For example:
Quote: Originally posted by Chemrock  
Any recommendations on the easiest distillation apparatus setup for distilling GBL from a filtered BDO+CuCrO4 slurry ?
I have cooked the BDO and the CuCrO4 for 3 hours at 200 deg C, and have filtered the majority of the CuCrO4 out via a coffee filter. Now I need to distill to obtain the GBL.
I'm fairly sure that "cooked" and "BDO" are slang terms that smell like drug manufacture, and I am certain that GBL is a "direct precursor" to GHB, a known "street drug". This post was not quite posed in the language of chemistry, but the thread was not closed.

So I think there is still a problem with the uniform understanding of your rule.

Personally I'm going to try to just STFU. I very intentionally just sat this thread out.

[Edited on 9-1-2010 by entropy51]

Polverone - 9-1-2010 at 13:03

I rely on members to report threads to me. I don't recall getting a report about that thread. I do see that people told off the original poster within the thread itself. I also need to update the FAQ, I guess. The "or face merciless taunting" part of the FAQ was written when I expected SM to be more self-regulating, largely not relying on moderators to take action against bad posters. I largely abandoned that stance as unworkable years ago: members denouncing other members leads to more work for the staff, not less.

turd - 9-1-2010 at 13:53

Quote: Originally posted by JohnWW  
What substitutes for hypophosphites as a reducing agent are there, e.g. if one wanted to reduce I2 presumably to iodide, or to reduce diazonium compounds?

I'm not sure how exactly this fits into this thread, but what about (bi)sulfites? Available by the kg for a few cent...

sonogashira - 10-1-2010 at 03:42

Quote: Originally posted by turd  
Seriously, if when hearing the word phosphinates/phosphonates, the first thing you think about is methamphetamine, just because it may be used for that
by a few desperate junkies 6000 miles away, and then you feel the need to inform the whole world about your holy crusade, then you have issues.

...at least we can learn a lot about crowd psychology. Groupthink, conformism, mob mentality, it's all there. :)

Words of wisdom Sir!... Always the scientist ;)

"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."

"Change your heart, it will astound you." :)

l0k1 - 14-11-2012 at 13:54

i have two words: 'electroless nickel'. i am surprised that this didn't occur to me a long time ago while i was investigating nickel catalysts.

mycotheologist - 14-11-2012 at 14:01

Quote: Originally posted by Picric-A  
You will have a very hard time buying hypophosphites, especially as your inteded use is the synthesis of illegal drugs.
Making it by the action of hot NaOH(aq) on white P would be your best option.

I swear ever other post on this forum is related to the production of illegal drugs, always made by brand new members :mad:


What are you talking about? Out of the thousands of threads I've read over the years, I've only seen a handful of drug chemistry related ones. Also, I don't see how this thread has anything to do with drugs.

l0k1 - 14-11-2012 at 14:48

i'm pretty sure there is a lot of other uses for hypophosphite. it is an antifungal that stops dieback in trees (phytopthora) it is used for surface treatments in metallurgy, it slows down the formation of elemental bromine in plastics (as it reduces any halide to its acid form). come to think of it, having seen people developing a peroxide based gel bleach application for vintage computer hardware that is starting to look like a plastic bottle that sat in the sun for a few days with a big chunk of elemental iodine inside it.

what does sodium hydroxide do to white phosphorus anyway? reduce to sodium metal and ignite?

tetrahedron - 14-11-2012 at 15:06

Quote: Originally posted by l0k1  
what does sodium hydroxide do to white phosphorus anyway? reduce to sodium metal and ignite?

it's very hard to reduce phosphorus (e.g. in phosphates), so the only sensible way to obtain the desired anion is to start from a low oxidation state of phosphorus (e.g. elemental). see this explanation.

[Edited on 14-11-2012 by tetrahedron]

l0k1 - 15-11-2012 at 07:55

ah, i did a little more reading and i see that white phos and sodium hydroxide solution react to form sodium hypophosphite. good to know. does this reaction run with a different polymer form of phosphorus such as red? i've seen red under quite strong hydroxide solution and nothing occurred at sub-boiling temperatures. i presume that the issue is solubility and white phos is not exactly the safest thing to be handling.

anyway, as i said earlier, electroless nickel. there are kits that come with ready mixed solutions and one of the parts is sodium hypophosphite.

[Edited on 15-11-2012 by l0k1]