Sciencemadness Discussion Board - case study help : an explosion : MEKP

case study help : an explosion : MEKP

mananvbhatt - 23-12-2003 at 10:27

friends , i am from india ,
a student at final year project ,
here at the hot climate of around 42-45 people wanna manufacture MEKP at small capacity and in
small scale industry setup.
i need your help at the point that i have been asigned the project to suggest , implement and commission a small plant for manufacturing this damn bastard explosive at this much hot climate . people i am working with already have practiced the manufactured this since 4 years but the turn is now that one MONTH BEFORE , they had an explosion killing the owner himself , totaly destroying the factory.
the place looks quite impressive after explosion of around 80 kg MEKP at once and i am impressed by power of MEKP , more to this , they did their earliar process in a plastic bath , i am on a way to say them start a new set up in 20 lts glass flask in a salted ice bath ,

specifically invstigating their blast , i have found following :
1_ they did not have any single window open that day :- no ventilation in site : i suggesting high to this
2_ they hurried adding last few MEK to the h2o2 and added 2 kg at once.
3_ operated an electrical switch after 5 mins and kabooom at that time .....no temp known , owner died with the reading in mind and none there that day.

i am confused and irritated to find out what are the decomposition products of this compound and when does the decomposition happen actually ... one more thing to say , that they use DEP to 50 % dilute the final product from beginning of reaction

i suspect the explosion not by itself MEKP but the decomposing gases filling the whole area and then a spark from switch operation because until it there were lights on. witness say that first lights went of in site and then boooomm .

SOMEBODY OUT THERE PLEASE HELP ME , I AM HAVING BIG RESPONCIBILITY AND PROBLEM ON MY SHOULDERS ,
DO HELP A STUDENT IN INDIA ... YOU ALL POSSESS EXPERIMETAL KNOWLEGE OF THIS PRODUCT , SO IF THERE ARE POINTS I MAY BENIFIT FROM , ... DO POST THEM FREELY

.... THANKS.

DDTea - 23-12-2003 at 11:59

Indeed, some of us do have experimental knowledge with Organic Peroxides, and most of us have come to the conclusion that they are dangerously unstable...

In computer programming, I know that one of the best ways to study and fix an error is to try to reproduce it. I would suggest the same thing to you-- try, in lab sized quantities, the addition of MEK to Hydrogen Peroxide. Then, try the RUSHED addition of MEK to H2O2, and look for any explosive gases.

What is DEP? I looked it up on Chemfinder, and it lists Diethyl Pthalate and Diethyl Pyrocarbonate. I'm thinking it is Diethyl Pthalate. In any case, the idea is to reproduce the accident, so that you know what to avoid and design equipment to prevent future accidents.

chemoleo - 23-12-2003 at 12:30

yes, it is diethylphtalate. This is what it is commonly diluted in, just like my hardener fluid.
Anyway, I would suggest the following for the future:
1. CONTINOUS control of temperature, with emergency measures once temperature goes to high. Such as dumping the whole lot into icecold water. I believe a number of explosives are manufactured while always having a dumping apparatus present, which can be operated REMOTELY (such as nitroglycerin).
2. Add any ingredients remotely, to avoid personal exposure in case of trouble
3. Never allow fumes to enter the work area, either work with a lidded system, or if pressure goes up, have a pressure valve that safely disposes and solvent/MEKP fumes. Bloody hell, similar explosions could happen if you just made acetone, or diethylether, or cracked petrol if you allow fumes to escape!
4. Although I don't know, I am pretty sure that given enough heat/shock, it would be still possible to detonate the diluted MEKP in the reaction pot.
5. For decomposition products, look up the formula of MEKP, and once do the calculation of MEKP alone, and once in the presence of oxygen (i.e. in the MEKP vapour filled room)
6. Being a peroxide, I would avoid metal exposure at all times. Conversely, using a plastic container, make sure it's the non-static variety.
7. Within the reaction vessel, purge the atmosphere with nitrogen, so that no O2 is present that might facilitate vapour explosions.

Also, another test would be to add a small beaker filled with a little MEKP into a closed container (not metal, just a simple plastic balloon/container type of thing). Then, expose it to the temperatures you normally find at the work place. Leave it for a few hours. Remove the beaker, seal the balloon/plastic container. I would try and do this remotely. Might be very sensitve, simple static electrical discharge could be enough to set it off. See if it ignites/explodes upon flame exposure/electrical discharge operated remotely. Shouldnt be a terribly dangerous explosion if you are a few 10s of meters away. Depends on size of the container though... Well if it explodes, then you know that at least in part this contributed to the explosion...by the way, I am sure the diethylphtalate is flammable, and evaporates easily. This may have to do with the air/vapour explosion, too.

Regarding the latter, it's a theoretical suggestion, I certainly wouldn't be up for trying it !!!

vulture - 23-12-2003 at 13:46

Because of it's very negative oxygen balance, there is a severe risk of secundary explosions, especially in confined space, after the initial explosion of MEKP.
CO or simple organic molecules like C2H4 could be responsible for that.

Please keep this in mind at all times.

even in small quantities be careful

blazter - 23-12-2003 at 14:10

If you intend to do a controlled experiment as Samosa suggested bear in mind the extreme power of this substance when it detonates. Even quantities as small as 50g have the potential of causing dismemberment if it was to detonate at an bad time. Personally witnessing the detonating of 50g even under controlled circumstances (at a considerable distance, with protective gear, behind a wall of earth) was enough to give me a whole new respect of MEKP and high explosives in general.

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Hermes_Trismegistus - 23-12-2003 at 23:41

FIFTY FRICKING KILOGRAMS!!!! ARE YOU TRYING TO SPLIT THE FRICKING EARTH IN HALF!!!!???!!!

I AM SUPRISED WE DIDN'T HEAR THAT BLAST ALL THE WAY OVER HERE!!!

GAKK!!

ANYWAY, I would suggest that if someone wanted to make such quatities it would be important to use glass to keep dangerous unstable metal compounds from forming. I would use (and mind you this is a little hard to describe without a drawing) A flow-through system.

Wherein, you connect several, mostly horizontal, slightly tilted, pipes in series in a zig zag pattern so that the product slowly moves down the grid of pipes with a little bit of peroxide being added, with simple injectors at the "elbows" of the piping, to the "river" of mek as it travels down the series of pipes.

It seems good to use gravity because of the danger of getting product caught in the pumps.

it is however a matter of good design to figure out the surface area of the piping in relation to the amount of heat generated by the reaction. It would be important that the heat is dissipated from one length of pipe before the next joint (and H2O2 injector) came up at the next bend and heated it up even more!

it would also take some thought to figure out the size of the injector needed to add the proper amount of peroxide and the speed of the flow of product out of the spout at the bottom. It is also wise to add the secondary reactant/s at the elbows in order to take advantage of the mixing action of the turbulence induced by the joint.

It is also important to know that these setups are often pretty tall.

However the benefit of a flow through system is obvious, feedstock in the top, product formed by the time it exits at the bottom!

P.S. I TAKE NO LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY ACTIONS OF YOU OR ANYONE ELSE!!!

I am speaking in the theoreticalin response to a theoretical postulation!

good luck, don't die!

Hermes_Trismegistus - 23-12-2003 at 23:45

p.s. use glass pipes

do NOT try to recreate the scene of a fatal accident....YOU MIGHT SUCCEED!!!

unionised - 24-12-2003 at 04:43

A country might decide to make MEKP to use as a military explosive. OTOH they could just buy the stuff
http://www.lanquan.com/products.htm
They offer a price per ton.
I don't think we need to worry about being acused of starting WWIII

[Edited on 24-12-2003 by unionised]

thanks

mananvbhatt - 25-12-2003 at 10:31

such good responce from you all ,
thanks lot ,
friends , one prson says .. 50 kgs... you wanna split the earth !! true man ,
if i describe the scene , there are 3 partners in this firm , one was out another gon for a tea in near canteen , and this fellow quarralled with labourers and make them out ..DECIDING WHOLE PRODUCTION ON HIS OWN HAND .. you know , the kaboom was heard in the whole district man.. and the walls of even the 5th most factory with rcc are found twisted like "s" no other signs of any thing in factory ... but i am confused about :-

how might have been the explosion initiated .. i tried the false lab setup as one suggested ... in a such small quantity .. but nothing particularly happened ...
i am really suspicious that decomposition of mekp caused hydrocarbons to get off , yhey filled the room , and then as they are no smell full gases , when switch operated , explosion was initiated , .. witnesses say that there were 3 explosions heard one by one , and it fits as 3 were the reaction vessels .. each having around 15-16 kg mekp formed in it ...

help me find the chemistry and products of decomposition particularly , i am supposed to give a bottom limit .. in deg centigrade ... which is irreversible to control mekp from decomposing ...

again thanks for your obviously sincere help ... you all..

one more thing

mananvbhatt - 25-12-2003 at 10:35

what i intended is this people make it since 4 yrs . they never allow temp go up 25 even , they are not fools , but they don't know mekp and chemical behaviour , i doubt more on gases as witnesses first describe a power failure at site and some seconds after fire , followed by 3 explosions , thats why i am keen on decomposition

by the way dep is dietyl phthalate and used to supress explosive nature.

Iv4 - 29-12-2003 at 03:05

I dont mean to be rude but I'm a little skepticl man,I'm in new delhi ATM but it hant gone above 25 in the last month ,j/k

My personal experiance with MEKP is less than 300 grams but I can strongly recomend you pick something else:it's weak,it stinks,it disoves many/most common containers,etc

Since your not setting up a 2Kt/day factory I'd sugest this be done semi maunaly.For example have a reaction vessel with pipes a good distance way for safety and pour the precurses down the pipe(seperate pipes ofcourse).

Some cooling like even AL pipes with cold water running through them is probably a good idea.

On a theretical note how's about passing singelt/delta oxygen into the mix?I'm not recomending this but just askign everyone.

Final conclusion= MEKP sucks donkey nuts.

Edit:
This is'nt a scientific thought but I think it's possible that some MEKP got stuck on the sides of a container or got spiled or something.Heh maybe someone was having a smoke,either way I cant really think of anything more than human error.

Hapens to the best of us(hint,large N2 laser+ APAL = bad)

[Edited on 29-12-2003 by Iv4]

some ideas

blazter - 29-12-2003 at 13:30

You mention that the reaction was carried out in a plastic container, it is possible that the mix got hot enough to either dissolve or melt through it. This could've caused the MEKP to spill out, possibly finding an ignition source.

Another consideration is that if the temperature was higher than normal for this failed batch is that the MEKP could've evaporated or boiled on its own. MEKP has a very distinctive odor, which is very noticible even when it is kept rather cool. It is possible that the MEKP vapors found a source of ignition... the switch as you suggest. These vapors would likely be very unpleasant in a closed room, and could possibly have caused the operators to become unconscious.

The exact conditions of the accident may be difficult if not impossible to reproduce because of the large volumes of reactants which were used. It is possible that the reaction incurred a "runaway" condition where the heat evolved continued to rise as the reaction proceded faster.

As for a definite temperate where MEKP spontaneously ignites/detonates, that may be difficult to determine. Since organic peroxides like MEKP tend to be very unstable, they have a tendency to explode for no particular reason. Naturally the probability for explosion will be higher as the temperature increases, but this does not necessarily mean there is a set "ignition temperature". The conditions where the MEKP will explode will be based on probability, the probability of enough molecules of MEKP spontaneously decomposing to start a chain reaction.

A way to get some practical knowledge of this would be to gradually heat a very small sample of MEKP until it burns or explodes. This is a fairly hazardous undertaking, and all possible safety measures should be taken. The sample size should be no larger than a single drop. Another thing this heating test will show is if any signifant quanty of vapors are produced.

keep flaming private

Polverone - 13-1-2004 at 20:56

Send IgnorantlyIntelligent U2U messages, e-mail, bricks through his windows, etc. But don't clutter up the forum with flaming, even though the post you're responding to is also clutter.

Also, please refrain from all-caps postings. The WWW is not Telegraph 2.0. In fact, I didn't make it all the way through your flame because it was in all caps and poorly formatted in general. There's no excuse for writing hard-to-read messages, even when you're yelling.

guaguanco - 14-1-2004 at 13:17

Quote:

Originally posted by mananvbhatt
friends , i am from india ,
a student at final year project ,
here at the hot climate of around 42-45 people wanna manufacture MEKP at small capacity and in
small scale industry setup.
i need your help at the point that i have been asigned the project to suggest , implement and commission a small plant for manufacturing this damn bastard explosive at this much hot climate .

Sorry, this doesn't pass my smell test.
Its like saying:
"Hi, I've been the assigned the task of setting up a TNT factory, so I'm going to look around on little bulletin boards to tell me how to do it." (No offense to anyone here; worthy amateur chemists all).

Either you have the expertise to properly research this highly technical, highly specialized, highly dangerous enterprise or you don't. The fact that you're even asking here (again, no offense anybody) indicates that you don't. Cut your losses and get another project.

IMHO

mfilip62 - 25-8-2006 at 13:22

I hearded on news many times about stupid gypsy from India
blowing themselwes and whole streats up while doing something with explosives!

Are there in Idnia any explosive regulations adn laws!?

Please,I want help you,soo please listen me!
If you realy have friends who are willing to help you,
DO NOT MAKE primary explosives,specialy peroxydes in such great quantity!!!
Eweryrhing ower 80g of AP or MEKP is extremly lethal!!!

Make some PETN,TNP,AN... or binaryes like AN+NM,AN+Ethylene diamine(PLX),ANFO...

If you really have team make some AN from fertilyzer,
ith is ideal "team"explosive becouse it requires a lot of
work when it is manufactured in great quantity!
("cooking",filtering,drying,drying and more drying)

belive me,it has wery big potential and deacent power!
half kg of ANFO can completly destroy a car!

Marsh - 25-8-2006 at 19:28

Quote:

Originally posted by mfilip62
I hearded on news many times about stupid gypsy from India
blowing themselwes and whole streats up while doing something with explosives!

I'm surprised you brought this back up...it is from 2003. Makes you wonder what ever happened with this "operation", eh?

But while you gave me some things to post about, I'll take the chance.

I wonder if this topic was originally started with intentions for explosive use, or for use as curing agents (either or, obviously working at this place...ah hem...might be a little scary).

Personally, and not to give new reading amateurs the 'go ahead', I have to say I myself feel MEKP is a fairly safe peroxide when treated as a peroxide, although definitely not in the quantities discussed above (80kg

, I cannot fathom what occurred that day...) It is liquid of coarse and stirring 150ml final product, I am not nearly as shaky and sweaty as I am while scraping just 10g of TCAP from a plate when dry. If you are going to attempt any peroxide over 20g (or 10g for that matter), please make it MEKP over TCAP anyday. The only reason I really still mess with MEKP is its obvious ease-of-production and emersive properties with potent oxidizers, and for those seeking; ease of initiation.

But what exactly are you meaning when you say "AN from fertilizer"? Are you saying actual production of ammonium nitrate solely, or preparing the coated prill type?

And not to argue, as you are just trying to make a point, but I don't think 1/2kg ANFO would "completely destroy" a car (in it or under it, although the interior might be fairly mangled). 1Kg+ may start to get interesting, though

.

(Sorry to add more to such an old thread, I'm sure the mods just love seeing this first post "huge quantity India manufacture MEKP" reappear in 2006

)

[Edited on 26-8-2006 by Marsh]

quicksilver - 26-8-2006 at 07:14

Quote:

Sorry, this doesn't pass my smell test.
Its like saying:
"Hi, I've been the assigned the task of setting up a TNT factory, so I'm going to look around on little bulletin boards to tell me how to do it." (No offense to anyone here; worthy amateur chemists all).
Either you have the expertise to properly research this highly technical, highly specialized, highly dangerous enterprise or you don't. The fact that you're even asking here (again, no offense anybody) indicates that you don't. Cut your losses and get another project.
IMHO

I not only strongly agree but I am suprised that this thread has moved along to such a degree.... Come on.... peroxides? That is not a commercial energetic material and has not been thought of in that sense through most of the last century. Something is quite wrong with any commercial firm working on "commercial" (read - kitchen made) energetic materials that would allow such a thing to take place - let alone lack the background research to prevent it. This thing screams bullsh*t . That a commercial concern overlooks or mishandles the simple temp comtrol of a reaction are not believable; period.
NO, I don't buy this thing at all. I think this thread should be left alone. What has been said should be enough to satisfy the "commercial concerns" of such a "company".

Totse is easy to find.....

[Edited on 26-8-2006 by quicksilver]

Marsh - 26-8-2006 at 08:41

Quote:

Originally posted by quicksilver
I think this thread should be left alone. What has been said should be enough to satisfy the "commercial concerns" of such a "company".

Totse is easy to find.....

Again like I said, it's from 2003. I think the main reason it was brought back up was to make fun of the post. Obviously the man who started it is not around anymore (here, and possibly elseware)...

But for the concerns of the forum, I think moderators should outright delete threads like these which generate such nasty outlook from outside sources.

[Edited on 26-8-2006 by Marsh]

mfilip62 - 26-8-2006 at 15:55

I am "making" pure amonium nitrate(chrystal) from KAN(kalcijev amonijev nitrat)!
Ith is Croatian prill tipe fertilizer maded from amonium ntrate and CaO and MgO(actually CaCO3 and MgCO3).

What you need to do is joust simple dilution,filtration and dehyration!

Only main problem is that you moust do that during summertime,when it is wery hot,becouse AN need to be absolutely dry.
It sounds and is quite simple,but it requires a lot or hard work.

Balive or not this chrystal tipe AN(FO) is quite powerfull,

Fiat 500 was totaly demolished,engine flit over pine wood,there was a big holl on the floor,and roof disappeared!

I used PETN and TNP as a booster, comercial No.8 det.cap, 60m of wire, 9V and Christmas tree electric bulb filled with black powder as igniter!

mananvbhatt - 27-8-2006 at 00:21

thanks for al the posts up here, i declare the post closed from my side,
the place is up , running , between the dates of my first and last post on this thread , there has been nothing gone wrong, and we have been successful managing the facility.

thx.
specially to guaguanco

Marsh - 27-8-2006 at 07:28

Quote:

Originally posted by mananvbhatt
thanks for al the posts up here, i declare the post closed from my side,
the place is up , running , between the dates of my first and last post on this thread , there has been nothing gone wrong, and we have been successful managing the facility.

thx.
specially to guaguanco

Could you post photos of your operation?

I would love to see how you have managed to successfully setup your facility, as well as some of the manufacturing techniques you are using to continue this in a safe way with no accidents.

Also, how is such large quantity of final product being used?

[Edited on 27-8-2006 by Marsh]