Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Intended Use Form

einstein(not) - 28-7-2009 at 10:02

I recently won an ebay aution for bromobenzene now the seller says that my order was kicked out of the system and is asking me to fill out an "Intended Use Form". I had no plans for it at the time and only bought it to stock for future experiments yet to be determined. Now I'm paranoid as hell. Why the hell was it "kicked out"? What's so suspicious about bromobenzene? What if I tell them to forget it? Will that send up some kinda red flag? Is educational use by a hobbiest allowed? And before any of you excuse me of having a guilty conscience I'd like to point out that even here where we are supposed to be enlightened about chemistry as a hobby accusation of illegal intentions sometimes occur. Has anyone ever had this happen? Hell I won't even order acetic anhydride because it's so watched but it never dawned on me that bromobenzene which I could have (and should have) made myself would be. Any suggestions on how to handle this?

ammonium isocyanate - 28-7-2009 at 10:10

Did the seller provide such a form for you to fill out? If so, could you post the details?

It is certaintly very odd that this has happened to you.

As to possible illicit uses of bromobenzene, it's not on any DEA list as far as I know. I guess one could make a methamphetamine precursor by a grignard reaction with allylmagnesium bromide, but that would be pushing it, and there are probably much easier ways to go about such a synthesis.

Is there any possibility the seller is just trying to scam you?

Saerynide - 28-7-2009 at 11:39

I have never had anything like this happen on ebay.

What kind of intended use form is it? Is it something for their own records or do they claim they need to send it somewhere?

It's probably best to ditch if you have not paid - 99.9% chance they wont do anything about it. There are no rules in ebay requiring anything like this, so they are either trying to rip you off or pull something else, I dont know.

If you have paid, you can ask for a refund or you can bs a reason if you still want the product. If they refuse the refund, start a dispute. Ebay will freeze the funds until its sorted out. I wouldn't be paranoid about this, ebay is very safe.

If you're really paranoid, you can clean house (a bit), but I wouldn't sweat it.

watson.fawkes - 28-7-2009 at 12:48

Simple contract law is on your side on this one. Since you didn't agree to fill out such a form as a condition of sale (I'm presuming it wasn't in the listing, but do check), you're under no obligation to sign such a form for them. If they continue to refuse to ship, you are in your rights report them to eBay for breach of their sales contract. There are other ways of dealing with this situation, of course, that might be less conspicuous.

bfesser - 28-7-2009 at 12:50

Is the seller Chemsavers? If so, they're trustworthy. It's just a formality that they go through to keep things legit and legal on their end. Just claim "Academic Research" or something. Here is there form:

http://www.chemsavers.com/servlet/the-template/intendedusefo...

[Edited on 7/28/09 by bfesser]

entropy51 - 28-7-2009 at 13:40

Bromobenzene is on the DEA's special surveillance list. That means that is is indeed "Watched". Closely. See here:

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/chem_prog/advisories/surve...

The seller can get in deep doodoo if they sell something on the list and the buyer is later found guilty of a DEA violation. They probably want the buyer to declare his "intended use" so that they could show they had no reasonable cause to believe the chemical would be criminally misused.

It's a direct precursor to phencyclidine.

[Edited on 28-7-2009 by entropy51]

[Edited on 28-7-2009 by entropy51]

watson.fawkes - 28-7-2009 at 14:05

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Bromobenzene is on the DEA's special surveillance list. That means that is is indeed "Watched". Closely. [...] The seller can get in deep doodoo if they sell something on the list and the buyer is later found guilty of a DEA violation.
Not exactly. The standard is "reckless disregard", which is far higher standard that strict liability, which is what you're implying. From the page you linked to:
Quote:
Section 843(a)(7) of Title 21 provides that any person who knowingly or intentionally distributes any chemical, product, equipment or material which may be used to manufacture a controlled substance or listed chemical, knowing, intending, or having reasonable cause to believe, that it will be used to manufacture a controlled substance or listed chemical, is subject to criminal prosecution.
"Reasonable cause to believe" is what matters. A simple sale with no other information provides no cause at all. A prosecutor has the burden to prove that they had sufficient knowledge, which difficult unless they've received an AG letter or, say, the buyer is obviously high and paying cash at retail.

einstein(not) - 28-7-2009 at 15:01

Yes it was Chemsavers and I have already paid for it. I've bought from them before and never had a problem.

I really need to know what to do. I'm sure like many of you I have family members who are uncomfortable with my hobby the last thing I need some government agency showing up scaring my wife or embarrassing her in front of our neighbors.

[Edited on 28-7-2009 by einstein(not)]

entropy51 - 28-7-2009 at 16:20

Quote: Originally posted by einstein(not)  
Now I'm paranoid as hell. Why the hell was it "kicked out"? What's so suspicious about bromobenzene?


I doubt your wife will be handcuffed or anything. I mean it's not as if you're a member of an online forum where illegal drug manufacture is routinely discussed and condoned, is it? They wouldn't really search your computer, would they?

einstein(not) - 28-7-2009 at 16:46

From what I've seen discussion of drug manufacture isn't condoned here. Considering the sarcastic tone of your post may I ask if you setup your glassware on the sidewalk in front of your house and if not why.

entropy51 - 28-7-2009 at 17:08

Quote: Originally posted by einstein(not)  
From what I've seen discussion of drug manufacture isn't condoned here.


Since when? There are threads with "amphetamine" and "ketamine" in their titles. https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=70...
Quote: Originally posted by einstein(not)  
Considering the sarcastic tone of your post may I ask if you setup your glassware on the sidewalk in front of your house and if not why.


No, and I don't order watched chemicals off e-bay either. Check out some of the threads regarding e-bay reporting to law enforcement. What do you think "kicked out" means?

[Edited on 29-7-2009 by entropy51]

[Edited on 29-7-2009 by entropy51]

[Edited on 29-7-2009 by entropy51]

Ozone - 28-7-2009 at 18:19

All you have to do is indicate what you "were" planning to do with it. Make sure this does not include CW/Drugs or any other Schedule 1 application. This is a CYA to the seller so that he-she can honestly say that you told them that it was for _____.

I have had to do this on several occasions. My boss had to sign-off on one of them (benzaldehyde) to certify that I was not making dope of some sort.

The classical Grignard synthesis of triphenylmethanol, perhaps?

Cheers,

O3

[Edited on 29-7-2009 by Ozone]

pantone159 - 28-7-2009 at 18:21

I personally wouldn't worry too much about it. Last I looked, chemsavers website had a mention that they wanted an intended use declaration for some of their chems, mainly the ones that might have suspicious uses, and I can see why bromobenzene would be included. Probably they shouldn't have put it on ebay, just on their external site, perhaps they forgot. Unless you have cyclohexanone and piperidine in your order as well, I really doubt you will hear anything from anybody.

einstein(not) - 28-7-2009 at 18:57

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by einstein(not)  
From what I've seen discussion of drug manufacture isn't condoned here.


LMAO! Since when?

But it's all in the spirit of intellectual freedom and scholarly curiosity.

Snort...drool. :P


I beg to differ having been flamed before on this forum due to suspicion of my motives for a post. Octopamine Thread
Condoned implies that it is approved of here as it is at WD. That's simply not the case. I find the moderation here much more stringent. "Swim"and their "Recipes" quickly find themselves in detritus. The only time I see discussions of drugs and precursors allowed to procede is when it pertains to something more than manufacture.
Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  

You haven't noticed that the only threads in Organic with more than three posts are drug recipes?


No and neither have you.
Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  

No, and I don't order watched chemicals off e-bay either, einstein. LOL!!! Check out some of the threads regarding e-bay reporting to law enforcement. What do you think "kicked out" means?


Ebay isn't the one requesting the intended use form Chemsavers is and they also sell direct via their website which wouldn't involove Ebay at all. As far as Ebay reporting to law enforcement I couldn't care less since I have nothing to hide. The problem I have is that I'm being asked what I want a chemical for that I was only buying to have on hand. Just like methanol, sulfuric acid or distilled water. You do keep a varity of chemicals on hand don't you?

Thanks Ozone that's what I was wondering about.

pantone159 - 28-7-2009 at 19:30

Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
You haven't noticed that the only threads in Organic with more than three posts are drug recipes?

You mean like this one?
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=12594

einstein(not) - 30-7-2009 at 00:14

Order arrived today without me having faxed them the form. Should I still send it to them?

Phosphor-ing - 30-7-2009 at 03:28

I would if you intend to order from them again.

Vogelzang - 30-7-2009 at 13:46

Einstein.........NOT!

Look at example B in column 9 in US patent 3097136. This is a classic synthesis and I think its in The Whole Drug Manufacturers Catalog, IIRC. Also see US patents 2921076 and 5179109

http://www.pat2pdf.org


Also see
https://www.hyperlab.info/inv/index.php?s=39cf3a7bf3495d334b...

[Edited on 30-7-2009 by Vogelzang]

Ozone - 30-7-2009 at 15:46

Far less nefarious...and...ubiquitous:

The classics.

This example found here:

Ah, screw it. The URL is rediculous (see Bc.edu).

Just look around, it's everywhere and served with sufficient means and depth to appease all. There is much to learn with these reactions. That is why they are taught in EVERY sophomore Organic lab.

Cheers,

O3

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[Edited on 30-7-2009 by Ozone]