Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Help: Failed chloromethylsulfonyl chloride Prep

smuv - 16-12-2008 at 13:41

I have twice attempted to synthesize chloromethylsulfonyl chloride from 1,3,5-trithiane, both times with failure. A process known to literature entails chloronating 1,3,5-trithiane in an aqueous solution (sometimes with AcOH co-solvent). I am attempting to modify the procedure by generating Cl2 and Cl+ in situ from TCCA in an acetic acid medium.

I will post my experimental procedures below, I hope some of you might chime in with your wisdom. I would really like to get this to work without having to go through the hassle of a chlorine gas generator.

Experimental

ca. 40% formaldehyde solution
40g paraformaldehyde (OTC product dyed blue)
60mL Water
2 spatula tips NaOH

Everything was combined in a 500mL erlenmeyer and allowed to stir with heating. After about 15 minutes, everything had dissolved. The solution was allowed to cool for 15 minutes and nothing precipitated out.

1,3,5-trithiane
Formaldehyde solution prepared above
100g Sodium thiosulfate
100mL 31.45% HCl solution

To the above prepared solution (at ca. 40c) the thiosulfate was added with stirring, after a majority of it had dissolved the hydrochloric acid was added. At first nothing happened, then after about 30-60sec a very finally divided precipitate formed. Within another minute or so, the solution became so thick with precipitate the stirbar froze. The solution was allowed to stand for ca. 15 min and was vac filtered, with the filtrate used to complete the transfer. A light blue (from dye in the paraformaldehyde) finely divided powder was obtained. The yield was about 80g of a somewhat wet product (note: the weight is way to much for this to just be finely divided sulfur).

A portion was mixed with methanol (at ca. 10c) and not much if any dissolved. A sample of the powder with strong heating on a metal plate with a butane torch did not melt even with strong heating (it just slowly decomposed), however on direct heating with the flame burned with a blue yellow flame. The same test with sulfur produced a red liquid which on prolonged heating ignited. A crude mp test showed a mp ca. 210c but since the product is damp and plastery it is hard to determine where/when it melts.

Attempted chloromethylsulfonylchloride prep
Preface: BE CAREFUL! TCCA is a wicked oxidizer!!!

14g Trithiane from above
60g TCCA (93% pure)
50ml AcOH
50ml Hydrochloric acid (31.45%)

To a 500mL Erlenmeyer, in an ice bath, the trithiane was added followed by the AcOH. The TCCA was added in portions at first I did this with stirring but it caused a lot of chlorine to be evolved, so I turned the stirring off and poured all of the tcca in (do this WITHOUT stirring if you value your lungs). After standing for a few minutes, slow stirring was started, and allowed to proceed for a few minutes; chlorine was slowly evolved. Next 50mL of HCl was added dropwise at such a rate that not much Cl2 was lost to the atmosphere (ca. 2 hours). After addition everything was stirred for about 2 more hours and allowed to stand for 14 hours.

The contents were vac filtered and the filter cake was washed with ca 100ml of water. The filtrate was homogeneous and therefore the synthesis was deemed a failure.

The first time I did this was a COMPLETE failure, I was going to add the AcOH to a mixture of TCCA and trithiane (dry powders). While I was waiting for the AcOH to thaw, a slowly escalating exothermic reaction between TCCA and trithiane ensued that released a good bit of Chlorine.

Discussion
I have posted my referance for the trithiane prep and 2 chloromethylsulfonyl chloride preps below.

I can't help but have some doubt as to whether I am actually dealing with trithiane, or if I just have a mix of finely divided sulfur with some other crap.

With the chloromethylsulfonyl chloride prep, I am thinking I should just do away with adding the HCl to the AcOH mixture since this mix is an excellent source of Cl+ as is, I think the HCl only drives out the chlorine. I am considering attempting this again with a suspension of trithiane and TCCA in water and slowly adding AcOH dropwise. After addition I plan to just let the thing stir overnight.

Anyone have any input on how to get this to work?


Refs

J. Pract. Chem. 1908, 77, p. 367.
(trithiane prep)
J. Org. Chem., 1940, 05 (2), 81-85
(chloromethylsulfonyl chloride prep in AcOH)

J. Prakt. Chem. 1964, 23, p. 38.
(chloromethylsulfonyl chloride prep, Cl2 generated in place from chlorate)

Klute - 16-12-2008 at 14:01

Very interesting topic! I had never heard of this preparation, it seems it can be very usefull, starting from readily available materials!

I would think your problem would surely come from adding TCCA directly in the mix... producing Cl2 in a closed system, and gassing it directly in the AcOH mixture is a easily done thing, not tedious at all, and you don't get bothered by Cl2 if you work correctly (I did several chlorinations, including S2Cl2 preparation this way, with no hood and no problems or exposure to Cl2).

The cyanuric acid could very well react with the formed chloromethanesulfonyl chloride, and various ways, or with intermidiates, etc... I really wouldn't take short cuts here, just to avoid working with Cl2... chances are ClCH2SO2Cl is worse than Cl2 anyway!

I would encourage you to tried the reaction again with dried Cl2, this reaction is analogous to the preparation of alkanesulfonyl halides from Bunte salts, disulfides, etc, where H2O/AcOH is very often used. Most of the time Cl2 is passed until the green color subsist, indicating excess Cl2, and thesulfonyl chlorides precipitate out when solid. There are several articles dealing with these procedures in the ref forum, if you really can't locate them I can try and find them again. I think they ahve been mentionne din other threads on the preparation of sulfonyl chlorides and chlorination of sulfur compounds in general.


Keep up the good work! This really is facinating! Good luck with futur reactions!

smuv - 16-12-2008 at 14:12

First thanks for the response. I have kept up with the chlorination of bunte salts (in fact this was my inspiration).

I may try the direct chlorination to get a feel for the reaction, but the whole point of doing this would be to try something that can easily be scaled up to a large scale. No one wants to work with mols of chlorine.

Edit: drying the Cl2 is unnecessary as water is needed in this reaction.

Edit edit: you are right klute cyanuric acid probably reacts with the chloromethylsulfonyl chloride. I cant beleive I overlooked this!:mad:

[Edited on 12-16-2008 by smuv]

[Edited on 12-16-2008 by smuv]

grind - 16-12-2008 at 14:29

I agree with Klute. In the presence of TCCA side reactions are likely. Following the original procedure and using Cl2 gas is the safe way. Another very convenient way is the procedure with HCl and KClO3.
And I think you should purify your trithiane, i.e. by crystallization from AcOH.

smuv - 16-12-2008 at 14:33

Is trithiane soluble in AcOH? I have found very little data about this compound.

grind - 16-12-2008 at 15:20

In your first reference article is a note:
Glacial acetic acid is a suitable solvent for crystallization of this compound. Benzene too.

smuv - 16-12-2008 at 15:49

Oh thanks, I missed that, I can't really read german.

Nicodem - 17-12-2008 at 00:50

Thanks for sharing your interesting experience.
Quote:
Originally posted by smuv
The contents were vac filtered and the filter cake was washed with ca 100ml of water. The filtrate was homogeneous and therefore the synthesis was deemed a failure.

Unfortunately I currently have no time to go trough the references posted, but I can not go by without saying that there is a serious flaw in the logic of your cited sentence above. Chloromethylsulfonyl chloride should have a considerable water solubility and might just as well be miscelable with water/AcOH. Its predicted logP is less than that of n-butanol but more than isopropanol, hence on the border of water miscelability.

Also, at the first glance both the use of acetic acid and HCl seem obsolete for this reaction. I can't see any role they might have. I could understand that you used AcOH as cosolvent, but what is HCl doing there? It seems to have no other role but to waste your TCCA by reducing it to chlorine which escapes out anyway. I would suggest to simply oxidize with TCCA in water suspension. There forms some HCl during the oxidation that will prevent the hydrolysis of the sulfonyl chloride product by making the medium acidic. Cyanuric acid can not react with the product, at least no more than water can.

[Edited on 17/12/2008 by Nicodem]

Sauron - 17-12-2008 at 08:35

You may find the following three preps from Org Syn useful for comparison.

I have combined these into a single pdf

sym-trithiane from formaldehyde in HCl treated with H2S

Direct chlorination of trithiane -> ClCH2SO2Cl not a great yield

Direct bromination of trithiane -> BrCH2SO2Br better yield

Purification of the crude trithiane is also described.

Hope this helps

Oh, BTW the halomethylsulfonyl halides are very potent lachrymators to take care.

[Edited on 17-12-2008 by Sauron]

[Edited on 18-12-2008 by Sauron]

Attachment: trithiane.pdf (250kB)
This file has been downloaded 2462 times


Sauron - 17-12-2008 at 10:02

PS

The mp of the crude trithiane from the orsyn prep is well over 200 C and the mp of same after purification is sharp and over 240 C.

So there is not much chance of mistaking trithiane for precipitated sulfur. Just dry your product and take an mp.

It takes 9 mols Cl2 to chlorinate and oxidize 1 mol trithiane to 3 mols (theory) chloromethylsulfonyl chloride. In practice the yields are no better than fair. Still the reagents are cheap. I would forget about TCCA and stick with direct elemental chlorination if I were you.

[Edited on 18-12-2008 by Sauron]

smuv - 17-12-2008 at 10:40

I used the acetic acid because the chlorination with the highest yields that I found was done in AcOH. On the other hand, this could be because AcOH transiently forms AcOCl which is a good Cl+ donor...just as TCCA is. The HCl, I agree was unnecessary, I will save you my flawed reasoning at the time.

@Sauron, I cleaned a small sample of the trithiane up by boiling in AcOH and cooling followed by boiling in isopropanol. I would not call this a recrystallization as not much product dissolved in either. I will do a mp later today.

Also the stoichiometry you have given is disputed, details are given in the JOC paper I posted.

Thank you for the mp, the question is can my corn oil bath get to 240c gracefully...

Stay tuned...

Sauron - 17-12-2008 at 11:01

Both of those Org Syn preps involving direct halogenation of trithiane are a whole lot fresher (1969 and 1993) than the JOC citation (1940) and both involve the eminent Leo Paquette as either submitter or checker.

Anyway the dispute you refer to is that the JOC author states that 1 mol trithiane gives 2 mols chloromethylsulfonyl chloride when treated with 7 mols Cl2. This actually more halogen intensive not less...compared to 3 mols product from 9 mols Cl2. So this only underscored my point that this takes a lot of chlorine or bromine to do the job.

I'll keep an open mind but if I were you I'd put more faith in the JOC paper only after you can replicate it.

Anyway the TCCA procedure is not supported in any of the refs. So if your trithiane is kosher then the TCCA is probably the problem.



[Edited on 18-12-2008 by Sauron]

Ebao-lu - 17-12-2008 at 11:38

Indeed, interesting reaction!
In the paper No2(J. Org. Chem., 1940, 05 (2), 81-85) it is mentioned:
Quote:
The question arose, at what stage in the above reactions scission of the
sulfur-methylene bond occurred. In order to determine whether the
oxidation proceeded first to the sulfone stage, sulfonal and di-n-butyl
sulfone were treated in the manner mentioned above. Both compounds
were obtained from this and even more drastic treatment unchanged.On
the other hand, butane sulfonyl chloride was formed from dibutyl sulfoxide.
Spring and Winssinger (6) obtained similar results with diethyl
sulfoxide. Thus it may be said that the breaking of the sulfur-carbon
bond occurs before the sulfone stage of oxidation is reached, but may take
place after the formation of the sulfoxide.

I wonder, what is the mechanism of C-S scission. The sulfone inertness in comparison to sulfoxide may be explained by the abscence of an electron pair, that sulfoxide possesses(sulfur in sulfoxides is well- alkylated by alkylhalides). So 1st that comes to mind is: Chlorine molecule probably forms a complex-like intermediate with sulfoxide (or less oxydized compound), that further undergoes rearrangement with C-S breakout. Also, it may be 2nd route of non-synchronous addition of Cl+ to sulfur resulting in [R2ClS=O]+ and releasing of carbocation (either free, with further addition of Cl-, or via Sn2 reaction with Cl- as nucleophile).
I guess, the 1st route is more preferable, because i've never heared of Cl+ agents could break C-S bond, otherwise, they are known to easily oxidate sulfoxides to sulfones(at least hypochlorites). Then the role of excess of HCl is also clear, it should inhibit the HOCl and Cl+ formation (also it inhibits the sulfurylchloride hydrolysis)
Quote:
The acetic acid-water solution
of the compound was sometimes saturated with gaseous hydrogen chloride previous
to the addition of the chlorine; this gave a slightly higher yield of the alkane sulfonyl
chlorides.

That means, that the usage of chlorine substitutors like TCCA maybe problematic because of 2 reasons - they may not break the C-S bond and they may oxidize sulfoxide to sulfone that can not react further. So i think the best option would be dropwise addition of TCCA to the solution containing HCl, AcOH, tritian and water, with stirring. Actually, what was the procedure in that paper where they generated Cl+ from chlorate insitu? unfortunately i dont know german..

As for tritian, it is a bit different subj, here the scission of C-S bond may be also hydrolitical, and the formation of CH2Cl may be caused by concentrated HCl as well (anyway, who knows!), so maybe here Cl2 substitutors would also do..

smuv - 17-12-2008 at 12:42

I took the mp a few times, I am getting strange results. At about 190-200c the sample starts to wet and looks like its about to melt, but then starts to brown somewhat and by 240c it seems to for the most part sublime away. I have done this with both slow heating and quick heating.

I guess I don't know what conclusion to come to. It is certainly not sulfur (mp), certainly not paraformaldehyde (smell) and it definitely not an inorganic salt. On the other hand it does not dissolve in methanol as the German paper I posted states it should, and even on boiling does not dissolve appreciably in acetic acid...I just don't know.

Part of me wants to say screw it and make more attempts at chloromethylsulfonyl chloride, however if what I have is not trithiane, I would just be wasting my time.

Please no one tell me to make it from hydrogen sulfide...

Ebao-lu - 17-12-2008 at 12:57

Just looked throughout J. Org. Chem., 1940, 05 (2), 81-85. Chlorine breakout of C-S bond is not obligatory at all. Only in case of simple dailkyl sulfides and sulfones it is unavoidable.
Merkaptals are at first step transformed into dialkyldisulfides with aldehyde release, so there is no need of C-S bond chlorination, and i quess Cl+ agents would also work. But in case of tritian, if the author's supposed mechanism is not a hasty conclusion, Cl+ agents will face C-S bond once again.

PS(offtopic) I see, here TCCA is a very popular item, many people on the forum use it..
Is it sold as usual bleach/antiseptic in US? I'm sure, it can be used as a good, ready to use explosive, and comperatively sensetive. Where does FBI/police look, i wonder?

Sauron - 17-12-2008 at 13:01

Org Syn does offer some salternatives

From CS2

From ethyl isothiocyanate

From potassium thiocyanate

In each case by reaction with Zn?HCl

From methylene iodide and alcoholic sodium hydrosulfide

Plus the process you don't want to hear about.

Citations in paper posted above.

KSCN may be best

MeI2 readily available from iodoform as described in a recent thread

You won't want to mess with ethyl isothiocyanate ("mustard oil") and you may not be able to buy CS2 depending on where you are.

Ebao-lu - 17-12-2008 at 13:17

2 smuv: I also think, that first you should be sure that it's tritian. Could you please translate the original procedure from german (maybe you made some violations), or you have posted the original one?
Probably your tritian is easily sublimable because it is not pure. These admixtures may have catalyse its decomposion into thioformaldehyde (imho)

[Edited on 17-12-2008 by Ebao-lu]
2 Sauron
In the past, nitrogen trichloride was also a common chlorinator.. i dont compare it with NCl3, but still there is N-Cl bond. (sorry, i see the carbon is +4 there, it can not be a "fuel" as i first thought) But in mix with some organic materials it will definitely be explosive.

[Edited on 17-12-2008 by Ebao-lu]

vulture - 17-12-2008 at 14:29

Can we keep this on topic and avoid double posting please?!

Sauron - 18-12-2008 at 00:27

@smuv

clearly there's something wring with the trithiane, so either with the J.prakt Chem prep or your execution of it.

How about trying again and this time use the inverted extraction procedure with benzene recommended in Org.Syn.?

grind - 18-12-2008 at 09:00

The KClO3-method:
Suspend 13,8 g trithiane in 500 ml 37% HCl. Stir and cool with water during the portionwise addition of 40,9 g KClO3. Mixture becomes yellow and later a yellow oil separates. Stir for 5 hours, then add the mixture to ice water and extract with ether. Wash the ether solutions with dilute NaHCO3-solution, then with water, dry with Na2SO4. Remove the ether by distillation to obtain a slightly yellow oil which distills at 15 mm vacuum at 70°C. You get a colourless liquid with a pungent odor.

"Purification of Laboratory Chemicals" includes the purification of trithiane: crystallized from acetic acid.
Try to use more solvent (AcOH) for crystallization and filter the hot solution to get a pure product. If this isn´t working for your product, you can consider it as very impure or the preparation failed completely.

Ebao-lu - 18-12-2008 at 10:24

Thanks for the translation of KClO3 method. I think, that with TCCA it should be done in the same way

Let it be known: The forum has a PM feature, USE IT!

smuv - 18-12-2008 at 11:56

I have ordered a commercial formalin solution, as I want to start from pure reagents. When the formalin arrives I will re-make the trithiane. I have posted below another reference, which uses crude trithiane made from formalin and hypo directly in the synthesis of chloromethanesulfonyl chloride (if someone wants to translate, be my guest, as my German is too rough to do so).

Ber. 1952, 85 p.456

Formatik - 18-12-2008 at 13:09

Quote:
Originally posted by smuv
I have ordered a commercial formalin solution, as I want to start from pure reagents. When the formalin arrives I will re-make the trithiane. I have posted below another reference, which uses crude trithiane made from formalin and hypo directly in the synthesis of chloromethanesulfonyl chloride (if someone wants to translate, be my guest, as my German is too rough to do so).

Ber. 1952, 85 p.456


Chloromethanesulfonyl chloride: 1.) To a conc. aq. solution of 250 g sodium thiosulfate, 150 ccm formalin solution and 150 ccm conc. hydrochloric acid is added. After good stirring, the solution is heated to boiling, where a white crystalline mush of trithioformaldehyde results, flocculating in nearly theoretical yield. 70g trithioformaldehyde is suspended in 350 ccm glacial acetic acid and 70 ccm H2O. This suspension has a strong Cl2-stream lead through it, and is then cooled intermittently with water so that the temperature doesn't rise too strongly. When nearly everything has gone into solution, some water is added, and then without cooling anymore at temperature of about 40 deg., Cl2 is lead into it for about 5 hours. The chlorine-saturated solution is allowed to stand overnight, then the chloromethanesulfonyl chloride is precipitated out with ice-water, and then this is dried over Na2SO4, and distilled in a vacuum. After only having distilled off for a bit, a very pure and uniform boiling product goes over. Colorless oil, Bp.27: 82 deg., Bp.750: 173-174 deg. (little decomposition).

2.) Into a solution of 10 g paraformaldehyde and 50 ccm formalin in 100 ccm conc. hydrochloric acid, at 60-70 deg., H2S is lead in, preferably under pressure. For a time of about 4-5 hours. Trithioformaldehyde precipitates out. This is not isolated, but Cl2 is lead into the mixture at -15 to -20 deg. for about 3 hours. Where the temperature can be allowed to reach up to room temperature. The precipitated chloromethanesulfonyl chloride is separated and further processed as above.

Sauron - 18-12-2008 at 18:11

Commercial trithiane looks to be about $2 a gram 97% purity and ref. mp (lit) given as 215-220 C which is apparently nowhere near as pure as the Org.Syn. product after reverse benzene extraction.

If the procedures from sodium thiosulfate work, which certainly sounds like it from the 1952 Ber. reference, as well as the older J.Prakt.Chem., then this is certainly a lot more convenient prep than having to resort to a cylinder of H2S (ugh) or a H2S generator. s-Trithiane has uses beyond making halomethyl sulfonyl halides, so this is very welcome.

A few years ago I wanted to do this the Org.Syn. way and went so far as to put together a pair of 2 liter tall cylinders with 45/40 joints on top and fitting them with adapters and 29/42 jointed inlet/outlet heads from Pyrex gas washing bottles, attached to fritted glass ended tubed cut to go to bottoms of the cylinders. I was going to charge these with formalin and HCl (Conc) and connect them in series and bubble in H2S, in a hood, but as I had to wait on hood I never got around to it.

Now I will try the thiosulfate method instead. The cylinders can go back to being graduates and the gas washer heads can go back to their original 500 ml bottles.

Crystals sending mixed messages...

smuv - 18-12-2008 at 18:21

Product recrystallized from ca. 10% AcOH 90% i-PrOH(don't ask). The blue color is due to the dye in the paraformaldehyde

Tried to take a Mp, crystals dont melt they just decompose. This is becoming frusturating! :mad:

Thanks Formatik and Grind for the translations...these are for you:


[Edited on 12-18-2008 by smuv]

Sauron - 19-12-2008 at 03:09

I would conclude then that it is not s-trithiane.

Perhaps some linear polymer [-CH2-S-]n

Have a look at "Formaldehyde" ACS monograph in forum library pp 129-130

These might be partially sulfurated methylene glycols, in which case treatment with conc HCl will convert them to trithiane

Also, has anyone looked at L.Vanino, Ber 35, 3251 (1902)? Ref 109 from that chapter of the ACS monograph and another thiosulfate prep from formalin and conc CHl

Worth a look.

[Edited on 19-12-2008 by Sauron]

[Edited on 19-12-2008 by Sauron]

Attachment: Pages from formaldehyde.pdf (822kB)
This file has been downloaded 1057 times


Sauron - 20-12-2008 at 06:49

I obtained the original 1902 Ber. paper by same author (L.Vanino) as the 1908 J.Prakt Chem. article translated above.

Main difference is that in his original prep Vanino used a larger volume of 3.5% HCl rather than a smaller volume of conc HCl.

Given the resulting unstirrable glop that results from the 1908 procedure this makes sense.

May be well worth a try.

200 g sodium thiosulfate iun 1 L water
200 g 40% formalin
2 L 3.5% hydrochloric acid

Paper (in German) is attached.



[Edited on 21-12-2008 by Sauron]

Attachment: vanino.pdf (137kB)
This file has been downloaded 713 times


chemoleo - 20-12-2008 at 08:57

To quote from the ACS monograph Sauron attached above:

Quote:
Crystalline hydrogen sulfide-formaldehyde reaction products known as
formthionals are also obtained by saturating 37 per cent formaldehyde with
hydrogen sulfide at temperatures in the neighborhood of 40 to 50°C.
Heat is evolved by the reaction and product is precipitated, almost completely
solidifying the reaction mixture. A product of this type obtained
from neutral formaldehyde melted at 80°C after crystallization from chloroform
and contained 51.5 per cent sulfur. When pure, these compounds
are colorless and have little odor.
Under strongly acidic conditions, trithiane or trithioformaldehyde,Sulfuretted FORMALDEHYDE
methylene glycol derivatives of the type described above are converted to
trithiane on heating with concentrated hydrochloric acid. Trithiane is
also produced by reaction of 37 per cent formaldehyde, sodium thiosulfate,
and hydrochloric acid.


I guess this is the answer then, you just need to use way more acid to force the reaction toward trithiane...which should be soluble in acetone btw.

DJF90 - 20-12-2008 at 10:44

You could add a little activated carbon to the formaldehyde solution in an attempt to remove the blue dye.


Quote:

Under strongly acidic conditions, trithiane or trithioformaldehyde,
(CH2S)3, is the principal reaction product of formaldehyde and hydrogen
sulfide and is precipitated in practically quantitative yield.

Trithiane is
also produced by reaction of 37 per cent formaldehyde, sodium thiosulfate,
and hydrochloric acid


It does not state that the second reaction needs strongly acidic conditions. Therefore using a larger quantity of lower concentrated acid may work as Sauron has suggested, and is likely to be preferable as there is more solvent to suspend the product in, reducing tendancy to be left with a solidified reaction mixture (again as Sauron has suggested).

chemoleo - 20-12-2008 at 11:09

I guess one could infer that the reaction with thiosulfate rather than H2S also needs strongly acidic conditions, which is what I did, but you are right, it doesn't explicitly say so.

I wonder how the reaction proceeds with thiosulfate: normally it is decomposed to SO2 and S (precip) in the presence of strong acid. One should be able to smell the SO2 if this reaction was truly taking place. Mechanistically it's difficult to see how elemental sulfur reactions with CH2O... Alternatively the reaction proceeds by the free H2S2O3 reacting straight with the carbonyl (which is probably activated by the acid) before it can decompose. Thus sulfate c/would be the product. Therefore the added acid remains, while in the former case it is neutralised as most SO2 will evaporate.

smuv - 20-12-2008 at 14:17

IMO there is no question thiosulfuric acid is the nucleophile which attacks formaldehyde/methyleneglycol. Thiosulfuric acid is a pretty strong nucleophile...I have attached a proposed mechanism below (I used formaldehyde for simplicity a similar mech could also be developed for methylene glycol). Also thiosulfuric acid is somewhat long lived (especially in the cold), it takes 15-30 sec after mixing hypo and acid to precip. the sulfur.

Which reminds me, one possible mistake I made was performing this reaction on a still slightly warm formaldehyde solution.

I will not attempt to purify the paraformaldehyde as I have already ordered formalin.


Sauron - 20-12-2008 at 16:07

Chemoleo, see Vanino's 1902 paper in which he used dilute rather than concentrated HCL with formalin and thiosulfate and obtained same product in same (near quantitative) yield.

I still have not seen a complete equation for this reaction and therefore can't draw any conclusions about stoichiometry, mass balance etc.


3 CH2O + 3 Na2S2O3 + 6 HCl -> (CH2S)3 + 3 H2SO4 + 6 NaCl

which looks like the overall reaction.

It is not possible to reconcile the procedure in the 1908 Vanino paper because it is imprecise.

He states "concentrated solution of sodium thiosulfate" 250 g"

"150 cc formalin (concentration not given)

150 cc conc HCL" (not further specified either % or density)

The 1902 Vanino paper from Ber. 35 pp 3251-3252) is on this score, firmer ground

200 g sodium thiosulfate in 1 L water
200 g 40% formalin
2 L 3.5% HCl

Thiosulfate is 158.09 g/mol anhydrous so 1.25 mol or, 0.8 mol if he used the pentahydrate.

Formaldehyde is MW 30 so 80 G is 2.67 mols. That's a largish excess even assuming that the 40% was nominal, and actual wt% was somewhere 35+.

2L of 3.5% HCl is about same as 200 ml 35% which is close to usual conc acid.

So the amount is about the correct one for the purpose of liberating H2S2O3 from sodium thiosulfate. ACS conc HCl is almost 12 M.



[Edited on 21-12-2008 by Sauron]

chemoleo - 20-12-2008 at 19:47

Yes, this checks out. Smuv's only difference is that he used 100 ml of conc Hcl rather than 1 litre of 1:10 HCl.
Another question - is the conversion of paraformaldehyde to formaldehyde quantitative under these conditions? There are no lower polymers that are soluble?

Smuv, very nice the mechanism, you beat me to it, this is more or less what I had in mind, including the formation of SO4(2-).

I wonder if the reaction would be possible by using i.e. Al2S3 (from Al and S powders). Since Al2S3 is water-labile, it would have to be added in small portions to the CH2O/HCl solution. Better yet, use FeS, and use acid addition to liberate the H2S.

My Way: Thiocyanic Acid

smuv - 20-12-2008 at 22:47

Preface: Based upon the mechanism I developed above, I theorized that other reagents with nucleophilic sulfur synthons might be able to react analogously. The two candidates were thiourea and thiocyanate. I gave thiocyanate a shot because I had it on hand and I thought polymerization might be a side reaction with thiourea. Of course, the advantage of this is that there is no chance of sulfur being precipitated.

Experimental

Formaldehyde solution
1g Paraformaldehyde (most of blue dye was removed by washing with alcohol...forget which one)
2.5mL Water
NaOH (catalytic amt)

Upon heating + swirling ca. .1g did not dissolve, so the solution was vac filtered to remove insolubles.

1,3,5-Trithiane
Formaldehyde Sol from above
1.5g Ammonium Thiocyanate
3.0mL HCl

The ammonium thiocyanate (once anhydrous;)) was dissolved into the formaldehyde sol. (at ca. 10c). The HCl was then added, the solution slowly precipitated very fine crystals over the course of a few minutes. The solution was vac filtered, yielding beautiful tiny light blue needles (filtrate boiled in filter flask durring vac filtration...isocyanic acid?). The filter cake did not readily dry by passing air through it at the pump, so it was washed with ~2mL of isopropanol (if only I had it on hand I would have used ether). The isopropanol unfortunately dissolved ca 50% of the product leaving a nearly white non-crystalline (odd!) powder.


(Filter cake before washing with isopropanol, red spots are probably due to reaction between my damn ferrous spatula and thiocyanate.)

The melting point of the powder was wide around 212C (sorry I had trouble viewing the thing while it melted, but it was definitely in-between states at 212) with decomp to a brown red liquid. One thing to note...the crystals were not fully dry and melted/dehydrated around 80c. I am sorry my melting point results are so shitty, I am having a lot of trouble with the equipment I have available (and my frigid fingers).

Discussion
The product obtained from this process smells just like the product from the thiosulfate procedure. The smell is hard to describe, something like the smell of sulfur mixed with formaldehyde.

The reason the product was not dried in an oven was because I tried this with the recrystalized product from the thiosulfate procedure and half of the crystals sublimed after 15min at 150F in a convection oven.

I am not going to be quick to label this product as trithiane (although I believe it is) before repeating this procedure on a commercial formalin solution and obtaining the mp on a dry product.

No matter what...I am happy:P

@Chemoleo, methylene glycol(s) are the predominant species in an aqueous formaldehyde solution. This begs the question...why did I start from formaldehyde in my mechanism above? I was lazy and wanted to convey the gist of the mechanism with the fewest number of arrows possible.

[Edited on 12-21-2008 by smuv]

Sauron - 20-12-2008 at 23:37

Somewhere in the lit., very likely in that ACS monograph on HCHO cemistry, there will be something on the reaction of thiocyanates or thiocyanic acid and formalin.

As noted upthread, KSCN reacts with Zn and HCl to give trithiane. Ammonium thiocyanate is a lot costlier than potassium thiocyanate.

As to the paraformaldehyde conversion, assuming that the depolymerization goes to completion and at that point there is just hydrated formaldehyde (methylene glycol) and water, sans methanol stabilizer, the process of repolymerization will commence and the soln will cloud. I suppose that can be followed instrumentally. For purposes of the trithiane prep I doubt that it matters. Vanino always has formalin in about 2X excess anyway.

smuv - 21-12-2008 at 05:51

Quote:
As noted upthread, KSCN reacts with Zn and HCl to give trithiane.


This is a completely different method. While I don't currently have access to the paper, looking at the reagents it is clear to me that Hofmann was trying to generate hydrogen sulfide in situ by reducing thiocyanate with zinc.

The relavent equations would be:
1. Zn + SCN- --> CN- + S-2
2. S-2 + 2H+ --> H2S
3. 3HCHO + 3H2S --> 1Trithiane + 3H2O

vs my method:
1. 3SCN- + 3HCHO --> 1Trithiane + 3OCN-

Quote:
Ammonium thiocyanate is a lot costlier than potassium thiocyanate.

If you do it you may use any salt you like. I think though even on a molar scale ammonium thiocyanate wont break the bank.

Quote:

Somewhere in the lit., very likely in that ACS monograph on HCHO cemistry, there will be something on the reaction of thiocyanates or thiocyanic acid and formalin.

In the ACS article there is something about polymer formation in neutral media upon reflux.

If you want to discus these points further, lets do it over PM, as I don't want to further side-track the thread.

[Edited on 12-21-2008 by smuv]

[Edited on 12-22-2008 by smuv]

chemoleo - 21-12-2008 at 08:20

Oh no, this is interesting to everyone, and has bearing on the subject at hand!
I think I'll split the thread into trithiane synthesis and chloromethylsulfonyl chloride later, to keep this aspect tidy - I'll put in a cross-reference.

Sauron - 21-12-2008 at 08:48

I obtained the 1868 Ber, paper by Hofmann for comparison of yield. Will report back after ploughing through.

As the thiosulfate is more ubiquitous not to mention cheap, and does not involve H2S generation even in situ, (merely NaCl and maybe Na2SO4) it is far more attractive. I was just looking to see what sorts of yields these Zn reductions gave. I'd be surprised if they are as efficient as the thiosulfate (or the H2S) methods which are essentially quantitative.

I am not particularly interested in the halomethylsulfonyl halides at least at present. But s-trithiane is another matter because it, along with 1,3-dithiane, are useful reagents for maskted thioketals useful in general routes to aldehydes. I was poised to make trithiane with H2S but you have saved me from that. Thanks, and I will certainly try to help in any way I can.

Also saved me from paying $2 a gram for this stuff....



[Edited on 22-12-2008 by Sauron]

Attachment: HofmannBer1868.pdf (1.4MB)
This file has been downloaded 669 times


Oddities from all angles

smuv - 22-12-2008 at 16:57

I have done a bit of work on the attempted synthesis of various thio acetals/ketals and their polymers. Although I am confused by the results.

Attempted synthesis of thioacetone/its polymers

2.0mL acetone (27.2mmol)
1.5g Ammonium Thiocyanate (19.7mmol)
4.0mL 31.45% HCl (excess)

A mixture of ammonium thiocyanate and acetone was swirled (not much ammonium thiocyanate dissolved). Next the HCl was added, immediately depositing a white non-crystalline precipitate. The solution was allowed to stand for a few minutes and was vac filtered with the filtrate used to complete the transfer. The filter cake was dried at the pump; Yield .8g.


(The red is again to due my ferrous spatula. The stain had almost completely faded after standing overnight.)

The product sublimed before melting, very rapidly around 295c. Heating the product in a capillary tube with a free flame melted the product to a clear white liquid with vigorous decomposition. A sample of the product heated by naked flame on the tip of a spatula does not sustain its own combustion, but slowly sublimes/decomposes (without melting) with a sulfury smell, leaving no residue. The product was appreciably water soluble. have no idea what it is...

Attempted Thiobenzaldehyde/polymers
10mL of McCormick Immatation almond Extract
6mL 31.45% HCl
1.5g Ammonium Thiocyanate

The ammonium thiocyanate was mostly dissolved in the almond extract and then HCl was added; an oily layer (benzaldehyde) formed. The mixture was magnetically stirred for 30 min, yielding no solid precip.

Attempted Trithiane From Thiosulfate
7g Sodium Thiosulfaate
7mL 37% Formalin
7mL 31.45% HCl

Most of the thiosulfate was dissolved into the formalin; Next the HCl was added with magnetic stirring. After ca. 1 minute magnetic stirring was stopped and ~30sec later a white precipitate spontanously came out of solution with the evolution of a good deal of heat. The solution was allowed to stand for a few minutes and vac filtered with the filtrate used to complete the transfer. The filter cake was washed with 2x 5mL of water; almost all of the product dissolved! The filtrate was perfectly clear and non-turbid. WTF!

Attempted Trithiane from Thiocyanate
3.6g Ammonium Thiocyanate
7mL 37% of Formalin
7mL of 31.4% HCl

Most of the ammonium thiocyanate was dissolved into the formalin with stirring. Next, the HCl was added, immediately forming a white, non-crystalline precipitate. The solution was allowed to stand for ~40min and vac filtered, with the filtrate used to complete the transfer. The filter cake was washed w/ 2x3mL water; almost all of it dissolved! The filtrate was slightly turbid, but no where near turbid enough to account for the loss of almost the entire product.


Discussion
These results have left me scratching my head, I don't understand why my products all come out being very water soluble, this makes absolutely no sense to me (I need to drink on it).

You can view the data about the formalin I bought. The acetone and hydrochloric acid were bought at a hardware store. The thiosulfate and thiocyanate were photo grade.

The benzaldehyde may not have reacted like acetone and formaldehyde because it is a much weaker electrophile.

[Edited on 12-22-2008 by smuv]

Very Interesting!

smuv - 23-12-2008 at 14:26

Excuse the double post but this is such an interesting development I feel it is worthy of its own post.

The filtrate from the attempted preparation of sym-trithiane was allowed to stand ca. 20h (if you recall the filter cake dissolved in water upon washing). Upon standing a heavy yellow oil precipitated. When I first encountered it my first reaction was to smell it (really terrible lab etiquette), it had an amazingly piercing smell of mustard. I believe this oil to be a methylene isothiocyanate derivative (could be somewhat polymeric, SCN-C-(O-CH2-O)n-CH2-NCS, the thio derivative or could be HO-CH2-NCS) or possibly a methylene thiocyanate derivative.


(picture of oil with flash, the oil is easy to see but the colors are inaccurate)


(picture of oil w/o flash, colors are accurate but the oil is hard to see)


I am debating whether to further work-up this product as since I don't know what it is it is hard to gauge the toxicity. I would assume though that isothiocyanates shouldn't be TOO toxic, although highly irritating to work with.

--

Late EDIT: Finally and Definitively Success!

So, I have tracked down the source of my strange results: my very cold lab. My lab is in a cold basement, the temperature hovers between 8 and 10c. I believe the products from my experiments 1 post ago were skewed because of the cool temperatures. In order to investigate the effect of temperature upon this reaction, I tried the synthesis of trithiane from formalin and thiosulfate at 85c.

Synthesis of sym-trithiane
7g Sodium Thiosulfate (anhy.)
7mL 31.45% Hydrochloric Acid
7mL 37% Formalin

The sodium thiosulfate was dissolved into the formalin at 85c (reflux). Next, the solution was removed from the hotplate and the HCl was added. After addition, the solution immediately began to vigorously boil/evolve a gas and formed a white/yellow precipitate. There was a distinct, heavy, sulfury smell, but no smell of SO2 was noted. The solution was allowed to cool to ca. 20c and vac filtered with the filtrate used to complete the transfer. The filter cake was washed w/ 2x ~4mL water, dissolving a good amount of inorganic salts. After washing a chunky slightly sulfur tinted product was obtained. The contents of the filter cake were crushed with a mortar and pestle and again washed with 4mL of water. A fluffy, light yellow, slightly damp powder was obtained; yield 2.0g.

About half of the crude product was subjected to further purification. Therefore, ca. 1g of product was dissolved into a minimal quantity of boiling AcOH. Insolubles were removed by vac filtration, causing much product to spontaneously precipitate in the filter funnel and filter flask. The filtrate/precip in the filter flask was heated to boiling and slowly cooled over the course of ~30min; a very fine sand of white crystals was deposited. The solution was quantitatively vac filtered and the crystals were dried somewhat in the filter funnel. The crystals were then recrystallized from boiling toluene, allowed to cool to room temp, then allowed to cool outside in a snow bath to ca. -6C. The crystals were recovered via vac filtration and dried in the filter funnel. White, ~4mm long crystalline needles were obtained; mp 209-210. The crystals melted w/o decomp. into a clear liquid.


(On Left: About Half of the crude product; On Right: Recrystallized product.)


(Pretty little crystals)

Its done, I have trithiane!

Some Things
It looks like the yield of at least crude trithiane is nearly quantitative. The crude product definitely has a little sulfur mixed in, although upon melting forms a clear liquid w/ no red color from sulfur. I don't think reflux is the best temp to do this reaction (because of more sulfur formation), but it was an effective way of determining the effect of temperature upon the reaction.

I would like to point out, that my purification was oriented towards quality not quantity. Therefore, I accepted the fact that during the AcOH extraction, most of the product recrystallized on the filter paper (despite the funnel being pre-heated with a heat gun).

I believe the recovered precipitates from my experiments 1 post ago were largely inorganic. I also believe that the filtrates contained free thiosulfuric/(iso)thiocyanic acid and HO-CH2-X (where X is SCN or S=SO3H). In the case of the oil obtained, HO-CH2-SCN probably disproportionated to NCS-CH2-SCN and formaldehyde. I do not believe the oil is SCN-CH2-NCS, because I would expect this compound to be a solid.

[Edited on 12-24-2008 by smuv]

Klute - 25-12-2008 at 04:00

Beautifull! Well done!

Sauron - 25-12-2008 at 04:58

Bravo!

Cold lab I don't need to worry about in Thailand.

Investigation: Cold Temps

smuv - 26-12-2008 at 22:21

I wanted to know what was going on at low temperatures, in the reaction between formaldehyde and thiosulfuric acid, so of course I did a few experiments. :D

I tried the synthesis of trithiane at ice bath temperatures (using the same ratio of reagents as i have been using, 1:1:1). After mixing the reagents a precipitate formed (inorganic crap). The solution was allowed to stand for a few min, and was vac filtered. The filtrate was allowed to stand for ca. 3.5 hours at 12c and the white precipitate which formed was vac filtered. The filtrate was again allowed to stand. Over the course of another day 2 more crops of precipitate were collected. The total mass of precip was way greater than the theoretical yield of trithiane. The percipitate was a fine, pure-white, semi-crystalline powder, with a mp >260c and burned without residue. I believe this is a thiomethylene-oxymethylene polymer.

I also theorized that at cool temps S-hydroxymethylthiosulfuric acid was the intermediate metastable product. If this was the case, I hoped that this intermediate might be able to be chlorinated to form chloromethanesulfonyl chloride (like a bunte salt, followed by the nucleophilic attack of the intermediate hydroxymethanesulfonylchloride by chloride). Therefore, at ice bath temps (with pre-cooled reagents), stoichiometric quantities of formalin, hydrochloric acid and sodium thiosulfate were mixed. The precip (inorganic) was removed via vac filtration and the filtrate was chlorinated with ice cooling by adding 3eq tcca portionwise. A good deal of heat was evolved with each addition. After addition the solution was stirred for an hour out of the ice bath. The cyanuric acid/sulfur precip was removed via vac filtration yeilding a bright yellow-green filtrate. A large excess of conc. HCl was added to the filtrate, with the evolution of little/no elemental chlorine. After standing a few hours nothing really happened. Based upon the production of elemental sulfur during the chlorination, I theorize (albeit based on slim evidence) that the S-hydroxymethylthiosulfuric acid adduct is not a long lived intermediate with respect to disproportionation to thiosulfuric acid and formaldehyde. The rise in heat upon addition is likely due to the reduction of chlorine by thiosulfuric acid.

Just thought I would share; hopefully this stuff is as interesting to some people as it is to me.

Sauron - 26-12-2008 at 22:34

Vanino did say to reflux the mix. In his original prep with lots of water, that would be possible, but there's little chance that the typical low-silution thick sludge is going to work that way.

Success!? (more or less)

smuv - 29-12-2008 at 23:33

I finally had success with both synthesis. I worked out the kinks in the trithiane synthesis, to yield a fairly pure crude product. For the synthesis of chloromethylsulfonyl chloride, despite my best attempts, I only had successes following procedures involving elemental Cl2.

Trithiane Synthesis

30g Sodium thiosulfate
40mL H2O
25mL 37% Formalin
25mL 31.45% HCl

The sodium thiosulfate and water were mixed with stirring; most of the sodium thiosulfate dissolves. Next, the formalin was added, nearly all of the sodium thiosulfate dissolved. The HCl was subsequently added, causing the solution to immediately turn a turbid white. Under strong magnetic stirring, the solution was brought as quickly as the hotplate would allow to reflux. Like a shot, at reflux an exothermic reaction set in which yielded a clumpy white precipitate. The flask was removed from the hotplate, after the exotherm subsided, and allowed to cool to room temp. The precipitate was collected by vac filtration and thoroughly washed in the filter funnel. After carefully drying the crystals outside on a hot plate (the crude, wet product smells very thiol-like, H2S?), 8.1g of a white powder with a subtle fowl odor was collected.


(After addition of HCl, (sorry for the blur, I don't understand my auto-focus))


(Durring the exothermic reaction, at reflux)


(The dry product)

The batch depicted here was not characterized, however a previous smaller batch (.25x this batch) was characterized. The crude product, melted with decomp over a wide rage ca. 170-200c. After one recrystalization from toluene (which dissolved nearly all of the product) the mp narrowed only slightly. This once recrystallized product was fed into the chloromethylsulfonyl chloride prep.

Chloromethylsulfonyl Chloride
ca 7ml AcOH
ca .75 mL H2O
.5g Trithiane
3g TCCA
20mL HCl

(see apparatus below to better understand the chlorination procedure) The TCCA was added to a filter flask followed by an equal volume of water; next a balloon and silicone tube were affixed. The HCl was added via a syringe (using the rubber tube), the silicon tube was clamped shut and the syringe was removed. A modified pipette was affixed to the end of the rubber tube to serve as the gas bubbler. Finally the clamp was removed and chlorination commenced.


(The beginning of the Chlorination)

From this apparatus chlorine was led into a waterbath-cooled test tube containing the AcOH, trithiane and water. The balloon did not have enough elasticity to provide adequete pressure throughout the experiment, so I had to squeeze it to feed the last 50% of chlorine. The pipette was swirled around during the chlorination (ugh!, wrist got tired). The chlorination lasted ca. 45 min. The AcOH mixture was originally a suspension, but as the chlorination proceeded, more trithiane was taken into solution. The chlorination was moderately exothermic. After chlorination the solution was allowed to stand for ~30 min.


(Solution after standing, post chlorination)


(The oil)

After standing, the contents of the test tube were poured onto crushed ice and water was added, precipitating a clear, slightly yellow oil.

I assume this oil to be chloromethylsulfonyl chloride. I will not be able to characterize this product for many months unfortunately.


Failed in situ Halogenations

AcOH, NH4C,l TCCA (non-)Chlorinating system
.5g Trithiane
6mL AcOH
.50mL H2O
1g NH4Cl
3g TCCA



All the reagents, save the TCCA were mixed into a 25mL flask. Under stirring, the TCCA was added, with exotherm upon each addition. The addition lasted 45min and then the solution was allowed to stir for another 30min. Next, an excess of HCl was added (releasing no Cl2) and the solution was diluted with ice-water and vac filtered. No oil was noted.

TCCA, NH4Br, AcOH system

.5g Trithiane
8mL AcOH
4g TCCA
.50mL H2O
2.5g NH4Br

In an ice bath, the water, AcOH and ammonium bromide were mixed together; ca. half of the ammonium bromide went into solution. The TCCA was added in portions with magnetic stirring, this was slightly exothermic. To the dark red-orange solution which resulted, trithiane was added in portions over 45 min. Each addition resulted in an exotherm. The solution was allowed to stir for 45 min and stand for another 30 min. Upon workup no oil came out of solution.

Discussion
This is all bitter sweet. While I seemed to have success with the direct chlorination I never go the in situ process worked out. Also, I never got the chance to characterize the product (or see how its esters alkylate)

The chlorination system, of TCCA, NH4Cl and AcOH was pretty well mannered, with very little evolution Cl2. There was definitely some reaction taking place, because TCCA does not release much/any heat upon addition to acid. I wonder if i should have let the thing go longer?

The ammonium bromide trial, was sort of a last ditch effort, to get a product from the in situ halogenation. I was guessing that bromomethanesulfonyl bromide would be the major product (but what to I know). I was hoping the production of bromine before addition of the trithiane would help determine if the cyanuric acid was reacting with the sulfonyl halide at all. However, the way the system worked out, the bromine was not produced all at once, but slowly throughout the reaction. After each addition the color would lighten somewhat, and after some time stirring darken to some steady color once again.

About the direct chlorination, maybe my declaration of success is a little premature, but whatever...I need closure.

That's all Folks; wont be able to work on any more of this for a at least a few months.

[Edited on 12-30-2008 by smuv]

Nicodem - 11-8-2013 at 05:26

An oxidation method for chlorinating thiols to alkanesulfonyl chlorides using TCCA in aqueous acetonitrile has been recently reported on the Synthetic pages:
Oxidation of a thiol to a sulfonyl chloride; Dodecane-1-sulfonyl chloride

This is in support to smuv's idea above and might also be a practical method for those who want to prepare other sulfonyl chlorides from the relatively easily accessible thiols/thicyanates/isothioureas/thiosulfates/etc.

Fery - 3-3-2022 at 12:47

I tried the 1,3,5 trithiane synthesis with these steps:

expected equation:
3 CH2O + 3 Na2S2O3 + 3 HCl -> (CH2S)3 + 3 NaCl + 3 NaHSO4

formaldehyd M=30,03 g/mol 37% density 1,09 g/cm3
Na2S2O3 . 5 H2O M = 248.18 g/mol (pentahydrate) M=158,11 g/mol (anhydrous)
HCl M=36,46 g/mol density 35% HCl = 1,18 g/cm3

0,50 mol scale:
formaldehyd 15,0 g 100% = 39,5 g 38% = 36,25 cm3 (density 1,09 g/cm3)
Na2S2O3 . 5 H2O = 124,1 g or 79,1 g (anhydrous 158.11 g/mol)
HCl = 18,23 g 100% = 51,1 g 35% = 44,1 cm3 (density 1,18 g/cm3)

130,2 g Na2S2O3 . 5 H2O (slight excess circa 5%) dissolved in 150 g H2O in 1 L 3-neck RBF. All thiosulfate dissolved (endothermic, so then warmed to room temperature). 39,5 g 38% formaldehyde added at room temperature (yes weight on scale, I do not measure volumes). Thermometer in 1 neck, dropping funnel in second neck, condenser in third neck, the top of condenser connected to a hose to lead all gases outside of lab.
Content in flask warmed to 60 C on oil bath at magnetic stirred, hotplate heating turned off and started addition of 51,1 g 35% HCl from dropping funnel, T raised to 85 C due to accumulated heat in hotplate and reaction temperature. The temp was kept at 85 C, HCl drop rate 1 drop per second, addition lasted 20 minutes, then heating turned on, refluxing started in 15 minutes and then refluxed for 30 minutes (T 103 C). Then let to cool down to room temperature overnight.
Gravity filtered, washed with 25 ml water on filter 2 times.
(filtrate treated the same way with fresh 61,1 g 35% HCl but now no more product obtained, only some turbidity observed in the reaction flask)
Air dried for 5 days on filter paper, on day 4th and 5th the weight already stable 23,6 g of dry powder.
11,5 g of crude product charged into cellulose extraction thimble and inserted into 100 ml Soxhlet extractor, on top of 500 ml RBF with 210 g of conc. acetic acid. Performed 25 extraction cycles (circa 2,5 L of acetic acid washed the product) - this solvent proven inefficient, something passed into RBF but most of the product stayed in the thimble.
11,5 g of the crude product extracted now with circa 150 ml of benzene, performed 25 cycles (circa 2,5 L benzene washed the crude product).
The volume in RBF reduced to circa 80 ml by distilling out of half of the benzene and let to slowly cool to room temperature. Yellow needle crystals decanted from solvent and air dried on filter paper.
6,9 g of yellow product m.p. 118-121 C = sulfur !!!!
3,8 g of colorless product with unknown formula stayed in the thimble (insoluble in benzene, I do not know whether this is something inorganic trapped in crystals or adsorbed on crude sulfur product or whether some polymer of formaldehyde???).
So I expect this reaction:
1:1:1
Na2S2O3 + HCl + CH2O -> NaCl + S + HOCH2SO3Na (formaldehyde bisulfite adduct)
Using excess HCl (1:2) could react this way leaving formaldehyde unreacted:
Na2S2O3 + 2 HCl -> 2 NaCl + S + SO2 + H2O

Maybe using less Na2S2O3 thus having more acidic environment could lead to different reaction? Smuv used half of the amount of thiosulfate in his reactions...
So I will have to try to bubble nasty H2S into the solution of HCl + formaldehyde. I wanted to avoid that by using Na2S2O3 which did not work in my case (but maybe using less thiosulfate could work???). I have Na2S but it is not colorless, it is in a form of yellow flakes so dropping Na2S solution into HCl+formaldehyde could introduce disulfide or even polysulfides which would decompose to sulfur and contaminate product. That's why I wont plane to drip Na2S solution into solution of HCl+formaldehyde but I will use Na2S + extra HCl to generate gaseous H2S which prevents introduction of sulfur into the reaction (possible H2S2 or H2S3 would decompose in the generator leaving only pure H2S).