Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Safety Reminder: home chemistry and kids

Safety Reminder: home chemistry and kids

jgourlay - 9-12-2008 at 15:41

I pulled the following of a website dedicated to soap-making at home. I still slightly freaked out just from the read. I thought it worth a cross post here in the interest of safety consciousness for those of us whose kitchen doubles as 'the lab'.

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You may contact Stephanie at sales@naturescauldron.com.

Konnor Bruns
Konnor

Read this slowly, read it well, and take every single word of it to heart.

Have you ever heard a splashing crash and knew instinctively what it was right away? Have you ever heard your 2 yr old son screeching at the top of his lungs for his mommy? Have you ever felt the helplessness of seeing your son cry bloody tears and see blood seeping from the corners of his mouth, meanwhile his skin is cherry red and you can feel the heat coming off of him…….

Sounds like a horror flick, yes?

I *know* what it's like to experience these things first hand, and I can honestly say that I sincerely hope with every fiber of my being that NONE of you *ever* have to experience what I went through last night.

My son dumped more than 2/3 of a gallon of a 40% lye solution on his head. He was saturated from HEAD TO TOE.

You know, in almost 5 years of soaping, maybe even longer now, I've *never* had an accident. No, I didn't get too cocky about my lye, what I got was relaxed, and very, very careless.

I had JUST set the pitcher (tightly sealed closed container of room temp lye solution) down on the counter. It was less than 2 minutes. I turned around to clear off the island in the kitchen, was in the middle of fixing supper you see……..then I was going to clear off the island because there was a lot of soap I was planning on making last night. So, why not set it here just for a minute so I can clear this out.

A minute is all it took.

Now this series of events happened in less than 7 minutes.

He grabbed the pitcher, it was very heavy for his little 2 year old hands, so he dropped it…..on his head. Even though the container was sealed, the weight of the pitcher on impact caused the tightly sealed lid to pop off. Konnor immediately started screaming, I was there the instant it poured out all over his body. FROM HEAD TO TOE. I grabbed him right as he fell belly down in the puddle of caustic liquid. I'm sure we all know how SLICK and slippery lye solution is. I almost DROPPED him back into the liquid.

I *threw* him into the sink (about 4 feet away) starting running water on him immediately. Sprayer in one hand, phone in the other, screaming at 911. My son was screaming…..a sound I will never EVER forget. Eyes mommy eyes!!! His whole body was shaking in absolute anguish. Have you ever had lye solution splash up on you? Burns doesn't it? It was on his WHOLE body. 911 was dispatched, Thorne was grabbing the vinegar, Kris was looking up the number for the Poison Control Center. I poured a whole gallon of vinegar over my sons head, kept on spraying his body with cool water. Called the poison control center to see if maybe there was something, *anything* else I could do to try to save my son. Ironically, they didn't even MENTION the word VINEGAR. Irrigate irrigate irrigate. Yea yea………I got that covered.

His tears were blood tinged. He had blood dripping from his mouth. His skin was fire engine red.

EMS got here………. Thankfully it was a guy I grew up with because I was a babbling fool trying to get my head together. He asked me, Steph, did you take off his diaper? Oh my, NO……..I didn't even *think* to take off his diaper.

What I saw then…. Right above his penis, about an inch or so, is a long BLACK and BROWN very DEEP BURN. Off to the left, where the tape from the diaper was, more deep burns. I was mortified, speechless, and sobbing uncontrollably. All I could do was hold my burning baby and rock and cry.

You have NO idea how helpless, how hopeless, and how low I felt at that moment. I've never felt so wretched in my life.

This WHOLE thing could have been prevented if I wouldn't have put that container there. For only a minute you know. I was going to go back and pick it right back up after I wiped down the island. Really I was. Famous last words of a fool……..

We get to ER……..we had been in contact with them the whole way there so they were prepared and knew we were coming. They took Konnor in right away and we were stopped to answer questions. I walked into the exam room to see 8 people crowded around my screaming toddler.

The thoughts going through my mind……..he's going to be blind. It's all my fault. I was stupid and irresponsible. He's going to be physically scarred and possibly disfigured. My beautiful precious perfect little boy just had his life ruined by his own MOTHER. He'll never be able to see Sponge Bob again that he loves so much. He won't be able to see his puppy or see the goofy faces his brother loves making at him. He'll never ever see again. I did it, and it could have been prevented.

Those were my thoughts. I begged and pleaded with the doctors, with the gods, with all the powers that be to please save my child.

Ok. He's NOT blind. He *can* see, but we're very very concerned about the right eye where he got the most damage. He MAY have some vision loss, but until the cornea is completely healed over, we won't know the complete extent of the damage. He's on an eye ointment every 4 hours, and an eye drop (Mucomist) every *2* hours. And please remember this………the cornea does have a great capacity for healing, if it weren't damaged by an alkaline solution.

Other damage……. He didn't aspirate any, his lungs are perfectly clear. None got in his nose or ears. The skin on his lips was burned off, but none got into his mouth. His inner cheeks and tongue are perfectly clear.

Over all, all over his body, he has a fine rash. He has small blisters and excoriation in his armpits. His diaper area looks A LOT better today………..it's not black anymore, but a beigey sort of color. They had to rough debrid his abdomen last night. He'll likely have very minimal scarring there.

Plain and simple, I was stupid. I was very irresponsible. Only for a minute is TOO long to leave lye solution unattended, even though you're less than 4 feet away from it and it's in a sealed container.

I was repeatedly told by the ER staff, that if I wouldn't have done what I did and acted as fast as I did, that he would have A LOT more damamge done. That area in his diaper could have been his FACE. He COULD HAVE been blinded. The doctor thanked me for doing my research and he was honestly quite surprised that I could spit out the info from the MSDS and other sources so clearly.

I'm not looking for sympathy. What I want for YOU, is to EDUCATE yourself on all precautions where lye safety is concerned. And maybe more so, NEVER EVER leave your solution unattended for a MINUTE. Because that's all it takes to ruin the life of a child.

The sounds my son made…….the pain he was in………his cries and screams will keep me awake for months. The thoughts of what I have done to my son, just knowing that I was that irresponsible with someone I love so much………the thoughts of what COULD have happened if I didn`t know what to do is what's making me write this, BEGGING you to never EVER get lazy, or relaxed, or careless.

Update: Steph reports that Konnor's eyes are healing and there should be no problems with his eyesight. He will have some scaring where the diaper stayed in contact with the skin, but luckily the scars are in non-essential areas. He is due for another eye check up in a few months.

kclo4 - 9-12-2008 at 15:51

Wow, that is probably the most horrifying thing I have ever read.
I can't imagine what a parent would feel like reading this knowing they have these sorts of chemicals. I've heard similiar stories of with meth labs.
However, it is amazing he isn't severally injured and that he can see!

jgourlay - 9-12-2008 at 15:53

Yeah...made me think of my acid storage situation.

bereal511 - 9-12-2008 at 18:37

Shit, I'm going to reconsider storing my lab in another part of the house. I don't want my toddler brother going through that.

Formatik - 9-12-2008 at 18:45

She didn't need lye. She could have used carbonates (e.g. K2CO3, Na2CO3). That's a lot safer. My philosophy is always use the safest alternatives wherever possible. And not leaving hazardous chemicals in the proximity of a toddler is a no-brainer, let alone unsupervised.

[Edited on 9-12-2008 by Formatik]

497 - 9-12-2008 at 19:00

Damn, I'm glad I don't have any kids to worry about.

kclo4 - 9-12-2008 at 19:22

Doesn't using Carbonates make it significantly harder to make the soap?
I can see why it would be nice to use lye vs carbonates. Obviously especially when their are such dangers of a toddler. I'm guessing carbonates will need more heat, or different conditions. This might lead to conditions that make the soap in a less desirable manner - and since your making it at home, I'm going to assume you are really anal about your soap anyways. So, does Carbonate make a poor quality soap?

Saerynide - 9-12-2008 at 21:10

When Im back at home, I'm incredibly paranoid about where I put stuff. My cat loves checking out anything I set on the tables, including my H2SO4 cell a couple years ago. He jumped onto my desk, and after making a few rounds, he swiped the whole thing off with his rump, right before my eyes. I dove and caught it before it shattered on the ground, but it had already emptied most of its contents on my hand. I then went straight to cleaning up (still drenched and bare handed) before the solution could destroy the floor boards or set fire to the wiring.

Thankfully, kitty was fine (he just looked at me with a cute "mew?" look on his face

) and the house didn't catch fire. My hand was rather uncomfortable and a bit painful, but kitty's (and the house's) welfare was all that really mattered.

In my research lab though, I am quite nonchalant (the other post docs are REALLY nonchalant - to the point that our lab has failed safety inspection 3 times in one semester!!!

)

[Edited on 12/10/2008 by Saerynide]

Jor - 10-12-2008 at 02:55

This was a horrible story to read. I'm very sorry for you and I wish you and your son the best of luck. It's very good to hear he has no severe permanent injuries. You acted the right way, when he go that lye over him.

This is a mistake, wich is human, be honest. You think, I can let that closed container alone for 1 minute. We all take small risks. You were just very unlucky this time.

Let this be a good lesson to all of us. Not only for those who have kids, but also animals. And always close the doors of your lab, or curious playing children might for some reason get in and drink or drop something. You will never forgive yourself for that. I always have my lab closed.

Picric-A - 10-12-2008 at 05:47

Even though she shouldnt of left the NaOH out in the first place, she did everything perfectly, even though she was in terrible shock, she should be proud of herself for that.

A quite terrible story, makes me think twise about how lightly i treat even weak soloutions of acids and alkalis...

Thanks for posting,

woelen - 10-12-2008 at 06:06

Good that this warning is shared with us. We also have three kids (12, 10 and 1 year) and especially the youngest one needs to be taken special care of.

Fortunately my lab is not in a place where the children usually are, it is in the attic of the house. When we have kids around (e.g. from friends), then I close the lab door with a lock, such that kids cannot get in, but sometimes I am lax about this, when we don't have any visitors. Our two oldest kids do not go into the lab without permission, and the youngest one still cannot go there.

But this story reminds me again of that something needs to be done. Our little boy NEVER should enter the lab without supervision. I have stuff over there, which easily could kill him (e.g. concentrated acids, toxic metal salts) when he drinks or eats from it.

Jgourlay, I wish you good strength for coping with this bad situation mentally and I really hope that in the long run your little boy will not have any bad after-effects.

jgourlay - 10-12-2008 at 07:26

Formatik:

Can you expand on saponification with carbonates? I don't think anyone in the soap making community is aware of this. All, and I mean ALL of the recipes I've seen involve fat and lye.

jgourlay - 10-12-2008 at 07:30

Jor: thanks for the comment. But just to clarify: this wasn't my kid, I pulled this off the net. I am so thankful it wasn't me.

blogfast25 - 10-12-2008 at 07:37

I keep everything locked up in a shed outside the house. All experiments are carried out there, so I can spill to my hearts content (I try NOT to spill of course), safe in the knowledge that no one other than myself can ever get hurt.

She did the right things after the accident but I can't say I consider it clever to have 2/3 gallon of 40 % lye stood in the kitchen for even a single minute. Hell, in the kitchen I use a commercial oven-cleaner made of 12 % lye, some surfactants and some glycerine thickener and I'm jittery using that (careful manipulation and fully gloved up). It cuts through the thickest burnt-on grease.

The only time I ever made soap I remember thinking that it's not as innocuous an activity as you might think (considering we associate soap with something 'good' and 'pleasant', not some potentially dangerous and caustic chemical, like lye).

Formatik - 10-12-2008 at 08:41

Quote:

Originally posted by jgourlay
Formatik:

Can you expand on saponification with carbonates? I don't think anyone in the soap making community is aware of this. All, and I mean ALL of the recipes I've seen involve fat and lye.

It is (or at least was) well-known that those also work for soaponification. Try Google books. The older literature is the best. E.g. Gmelins Handbook of Chemistry (towards bottom of the page).

vulture - 10-12-2008 at 11:13

What exactly is the problem here? Home chemistry or allowing kids near something they shouldn't be near?

If the person in question would have put a kettle of boiling water without supervision near her toddler, the results would have been similar. No reason to stigmatize "chemicals" once more.

[Edited on 10-12-2008 by vulture]

jgourlay - 10-12-2008 at 11:38

Vulture: posted as a general safety reminder. Posted here because of relevance. What was NOT posted here was the story about the guy, with the little kid, who never removed the key on his grinder switch. Because it's not relevant. Neither did this get posted in the woodworking forum.

woelen - 10-12-2008 at 13:07

Yes, I agree. It is good to sometimes stir up the dust again. We can feel too comfortable working with dangerous and toxic chemicals and a warning is good at times. I do not see this as stigmatizing chemicals, it is a certain risk, especially if we feel too comfortable.

I even notice this myself. The first time when I did an experiment with concentrated H2SO4 as was very careful and even a little bit scared for the event that a drop of it could come on my skin. Now I have no fearful feeling at all whenf pouring stuff like fuming nitric acid or CrO3/H2SO4 mix from a bottle into a test tube, while I hold the test tube in my bare hand

. This is not a good habit at all and every now and then I need to "reset" my mind again, telling myself that I MUST be careful, ALWAYS!

Another example was when I first went to the south of Germany by car as a young boy (20 years old or so). When I went there, I found it scary to go faster than 120 km/h, when I came back I had no problem going 170, 180 km/h. I got used to the high speed.

Jor - 10-12-2008 at 13:40

I notice this myself as well.

When I started about 1,5 year ago, I was very scared of acids and toxic substances. I used full protection when opening my bottle of 32% hydrochloric acid, and I was really scared, it took me an hour to mentally prepare myself.
Now I use the 37% stuff as it is water. It's not that dangerous anyway. In my uni lab, I had a stirring bar stained with MnO2, so I get some of the HCl on a tissue from the bottle, but due to nonchalance (i tend to have it at uni, when i work in these proffessional hoods and very safe environment) I spilled about 2-3mL of the acids over my hand. I made a quick run to the sink, and kept my hand for 30 seconds in running water. I haven't felt anything since then. Im also not scared at all of HNO3 65% and 85% H3PO4.

This does not mean I mess around with them carefully. I do not just do things. Water can be dangerous as well, put some on sodium and boom. I mean I'm not afraid to get those on my hands.

But some things, I still respect them very much, and use absolute concentration when handling them. These include hot alkalies, H2SO4 and bromine. I have a lot of respect for chronic toxicity chemicals, like carcinogens, and I use them with all safety measures, except a lab coat. So fume hood, glasses and gloves, and sometimes a dust mask.

12AX7 - 10-12-2008 at 16:57

I've never felt any irritation (on solid skin) from HCl or NaOH, though the latter produces considerable "soapiness" and leads to dry skin or after longer exposure, dry peeling (which I've never experienced from NaOH per se, but from cement, which is just as basic). HCl burns like suck on thin or scabbed skin though!!

Tim

stricnine - 10-12-2008 at 17:37

Hi folks! As a parent I am quite concerned too. Once I left some acid I was using to de-scale an electric kettle (HCl 35% or so) in a water bottle, and one of my kids thought it was lemonade! I managed to stop him when the bottle was about to be tilted into his thirsty mouth.

For those who were afraid of dealing with chemicals and now are not so, here goes my advice: NEVER underestimate the effect of a substance or chemical. I once posted the effect of HF, and I think it is worth re-posting: It was during my first year at Universrity, and I had just learnt that HF was a weak acid ( weaker than acetic), and that it reacted with glass, so I went into trying do do some glass etching... fooling with the acid with my bare hands! IN TWO DAYS MY FINGERS PAINED LIKE HELL, ACTUALLY I COULD FEEL THE BONES PAINING! Hope it helps someone else!

Cheers!

kclo4 - 10-12-2008 at 17:41

Aren't they effects of HF on the body horrible? what was the out come of your fingers? I've read that many people were afraid to use it unless they had some Calcium Gluconate handy and gloves etc. HF is a small molecule so it can travel pretty far into plastics IIRC.

blogfast25 - 11-12-2008 at 08:06

Yep, HF scares me too. The fact is that on contact you don't feel anything at first, the pains and burns come later when the small lipophylic molecule has diffused through skin tissue and starts finding the Ca2+ in your cells, makes it all too easy to poison yourself almost without realising...

On top of that, most reactions with hydrofluoric acid (aq.) or hydrogen fluoride (anhydrous) require an excess of the stuff which then needs to be gotten rid of by evaporation: w/o a well functioning hood that doesn't seem like a great idea either. And blowing small amounts of HF into a non-industrial neighbourhood is something I'm not feeling keen about either.

So I've been looking at various other fluorination routes e.g. the Brauer recommended route for UF4 by fluorination of UO3 with CCl2F2 (Freon 12) but have no idea what other oxides might be fluorinatable that way. And the by-product is COCl2 (phosgene), so that has to be gotten rid off too...

jgourlay - 11-12-2008 at 08:30

Blogfast, is there some liquid through which you could bubble the gas through which would capture that problematic gasses?

blogfast25 - 11-12-2008 at 08:45

Quote:

Originally posted by jgourlay
Blogfast, is there some liquid through which you could bubble the gas through which would capture that problematic gasses?

In theory all that is very possible, in practice it complicates things a lot, especially in a non-professional set-up.

Swede - 1-1-2009 at 08:36

Interesting thread, sorry for the bump, but it is a solid reminder to be meticulous and careful... NOT a trembling, irrational fool, but a cool and methodical chemist.

Everyone has a story - here's mine, full of stupidities which makes it interesting. I was working with concentrated lye, bare-handed, and spilled about 10 ml on my hand. My shop has a concrete floor. I reached down and grabbed a 1 gallon ploy jug of water, and simply began to pour it over my hand. Non-dangerous solvents like water, I often use the floor to absorb small amounts - it evaporates, no problems.

As I'm rinsing the lye off my hands, I thought it odd that the concrete floor was melting, bubbling, and turning yellow.

I had grabbed a 1 gallon jug of 32% HCl pool acid and was calmly washing my hand in a steady stream of it. Probably a liter ended up over my hand and the floor. I ran to the nearest major water source (my backyard pool) and began to "swish" my hand rapidly. Expecting a scarred stump, I withdrew my hand to see... nothing. No pain, no blisters, nothing at all. MAYBE a slight redness developed after an hour, but it was a non-event, medically.

If it had been sulphuric or nitric, much different results. But 32% HCl on skin just isn't that big a deal. Not recommended, but no biggie. EYES, always a biggie. Lessons learned and incorporated on lab orderliness.

Rosco Bodine - 1-1-2009 at 19:51

Every hobby chemist should have at a minimum a spa or more preferably an inground swimming pool nearby for emergency use as a "full body wash-station"

These handy plumbing fixtures may also occasionally find more routine usefulness as a babe magnets, soaking away sore muscles, ect. The utility of such emergency wash stations
along with informal attire like bikinis for young lab assistants of the stacked and packed female variety has been a too long neglected safety necessity by the commercial and academic laboratories, resulting in an unnecessarily uncomfortable work environment, aside from the conspicuous safety issue

chemists of the world should be unified in demanding this minimal upgrade for all facilities where our talents are required.

Swede - 2-1-2009 at 04:57

Couldn't agree more. My "body wash station" is heated to 85 degrees F, has 25,000 gallons of MMO-cleansed water awaiting any problem, such as a BBQ, gaggles of female assistants with too-small bikinis, or yes, even a chemical spill. But for some odd reason, the female assistants leave when they see my lab, or when I begin to talk about how the salt system turns chlorides in the pool into hypochlorites.