Sciencemadness Discussion Board

The Chemical Closet

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niggaknow - 12-3-2008 at 12:55

This company sent me a link to their website here
http://www.thechemicalcloset.co.uk/

You can see in their list of chemicals here
http://www.thechemicalcloset.co.uk/store.php?crn=205&sta...

that it includes:

Anhydrous Ammonia, Ephedrine, Iodine Resublimed Crystal (500 grams), Hexamine Reagent, Methylamine Hydrochloride, Phenylacetic Acid, Phenylpropanolamine Hydrochloride, Piperidine, Red Phosphorus and Safrole

This looks like a sting operation. Has anyone else gotten emails from them?

[Edited on 12-3-2008 by niggaknow]

kilowatt - 12-3-2008 at 13:19

This is a sting operation. I believe this was concluded in the KNO3.com thread. If you buy from them, you will be promptly raided and arrested.

pantone159 - 12-3-2008 at 13:55

I don't know of any proof that they are a sting, but that is sure what I would bet on. After seeing the trouble that the KNO3 owners got into, and for something much less blatant than TCC, I find it hard to believe that somebody else would really start such a shop.

That leaves two options by my calculations:
1) It is a scam, which will take your $ and send you nothing, or
2) It is a sting.

Also - Somewhere else on this site, somebody posted a comment that the name that TCC is registered to ('James Porter') was the false name used in investigating KNO3. (But no link to substantiate that this false name was used in the KNO3 case.)

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=7127&a...
Quote:

Brian Howes posted pdf of the federal indictment. Most interesting was the fake name used by Arizona detective.. James Porter,, which is also name of registree for www.thechemicalcloset.uk.co and the site traces to IP in Arizona.

ScienceGeek - 12-3-2008 at 14:10

The "Potassium Permanganate" they sell does not look like KMnO4 to me...
See Here

[Edited on 12-3-2008 by ScienceGeek]

[Edited on 12-3-2008 by ScienceGeek]

MagicJigPipe - 12-3-2008 at 14:54

You're right. You'd think it would look darker than that (and not like a white solid). This seems to point towards a scam/sting operation when they just fill their bottles with NaCl and take a picture (that's what it looks like).

Not to mention 80% of their chemicals are listed in the US (a huge percentage list 1).

I just don't understand how anyone (in the US or UK) would be dumb enough to buy anything like iodine, ephedrine, phenylpropanolamine, red phosphorus, (hypo)phosphorus acid, anhydrous ammonia or methylamine HCl.

Apparently, The Chemical Closet (TCC) has been sending emails out to several members of this board. Almost makes you wonder if they used this forum for their mailing list.

[Edited on 12-3-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

joeflsts - 12-3-2008 at 14:57

Quote:
Originally posted by kilowatt
This is a sting operation. I believe this was concluded in the KNO3.com thread. If you buy from them, you will be promptly raided and arrested.


Really - do you know someone this has happened too or are you presenting your opinion?

Joe

evil_lurker - 12-3-2008 at 16:49

Personally I think the jury is out on the motives behind the site... hell for all I know it could actually be legit.

But any idiot can clearly see the site is geared toward being a supplier of raw ingredients for methamphetamine and ectasy production.

And that alone should set off serious warning bells to any person who might be interested in purchasing reagents... or more accurately precursors... from the site.

Its been my experience that when something is too good to be true it usually is.

ScienceGeek - 12-3-2008 at 16:55

They're basically saying" Everything you need to cook some meth"
Actually made me smile to see the "Best Seller" list:

Heavy Duty Boiling Flasks Round Bottoms Short Necks - 1000ml
Hydrocloric Acid
Ammonia, Anhydrous
Graduated Ehrlenmeyer Flasks, Wide-Mouths - 1000ml
Red Phosphorus, Amorphous (500 grams)
Sodium Hydroxide
Ephedrine Hydrochloride (500g)

For hose of you who watch "Breaking Bad", the "Heavy Duty Boiling Flask" has GOT to be intentional! :P

MagicJigPipe - 12-3-2008 at 17:55

Hahaha, yeah. I think that show is gonna start a trend of wannabe meth cooks getting "ideas" from the show. It seems like a funny coincidence that they would be advertising that particular kind of flask right around this time, though.

pantone159 - 12-3-2008 at 20:24

Quote:
Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Apparently, The Chemical Closet (TCC) has been sending emails out to several members of this board.


That is the part that disturbs me. How are they getting the addresses??? That is very fishy.

evil_lurker - 12-3-2008 at 23:40

Actually those are the only flasks I will buy.

So called "heavy duty" flasks are a real term used by glassware manufactures long before Breaking Bad.

They are labeled as such due to them having walls that are approx 30% than "standard duty" flasks.

Furthermore, flasks come in both long neck and short necks, and round bottoms and flat bottoms.

woelen - 13-3-2008 at 00:32

I'm not sure its a scam. Someone in the KNO3 thread posted a message that he ordered some chemicals from this company and that he received these chemicals without problems (yet).

Even if it is not a sting operation, I would stay far away from this. If it is not a sting operation, then it will be busted in the near future and from their administration the LE-agencies will find the addresses of the customers of this company.

Another reason for staying away from them are their prices. They are absurd and I have sources for most of their chems (except the ephedrine, saffrole and some of the other organics) which sell at 20% of the price, asked by the chemical closet.

Btw, up to now I did not receive an email from them. It might be an interesting exercise to find out who receive emails. If only US-based members receive emails, then that is interesting info as well.

[Edited on 13-3-08 by woelen]

theobromacacao - 13-3-2008 at 01:25

I received an email from them a couple of days ago, although live in the UK. I had a quick look at their site out of interest, and did quite like the idea of easily obtaining red P (not easy, even though I have a business address I can use). However, when looking at the site further, I became suspicious due to some of the chemicals listed and the fact that the only apparatus they sell is flasks, condensers and heaters, just like other people have mentioned. It also caught my eye that the only way of contacting them is by email or mobile. I'll manage without the P for now (apart from the small sample in my element collection)!

S.C. Wack - 13-3-2008 at 05:02

Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
Really - do you know someone this has happened too or are you presenting your opinion?


"On Saturday, December 1, 2007 I briefed officers on the execution of the controlled delivery and search warrant...I explained to Jeff Scheidemantel that STC-HIDTA had become involved in an investigation regarding him possibly manufacturing methamphetamine as a result of an interdiction effort after he attempted to import red phosphorus into the United States. Jeff Scheidermantel told me he ordered the smallest quantity of red phosphorus the company offered from a website in the United Kingdom called, the chemical closet for $88.00."

MagicJigPipe - 13-3-2008 at 06:10

You see that! If this is, in fact true, it's disturbing. Simply importing a "small" amount of red phosphorus into the US is enough for a controlled delivery/search warrant? Oh my god! I am utterly appalled! Nauseated! I almost projectile vomited onto my laptop in disgust!

Let us direct this vomit into the mouth of the oppressive LE machine in the US! :D

joeflsts - 13-3-2008 at 11:26

Quote:
Originally posted by S.C. Wack
Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
Really - do you know someone this has happened too or are you presenting your opinion?


"On Saturday, December 1, 2007 I briefed officers on the execution of the controlled delivery and search warrant...I explained to Jeff Scheidemantel that STC-HIDTA had become involved in an investigation regarding him possibly manufacturing methamphetamine as a result of an interdiction effort after he attempted to import red phosphorus into the United States. Jeff Scheidermantel told me he ordered the smallest quantity of red phosphorus the company offered from a website in the United Kingdom called, the chemical closet for $88.00."


Can you send me the link to this news article? I'm still not sure if this tells me that The Chemical Closet reported him, which they could do since he bought an banned substance in the US, or if this is just proof that Jeff Scheidermantel is a complete dumbass.

Joe

joeflsts - 13-3-2008 at 11:27

Quote:
Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
You see that! If this is, in fact true, it's disturbing. Simply importing a "small" amount of red phosphorus into the US is enough for a controlled delivery/search warrant? Oh my god! I am utterly appalled! Nauseated! I almost projectile vomited onto my laptop in disgust!

Let us direct this vomit into the mouth of the oppressive LE machine in the US! :D


What is the threshold amount for Red P? You do realize that according the their site the "smallest" amount is 500 grams right? How much dope do you suppose 500g will produce?



Joe


joe

[Edited on 13-3-2008 by joeflsts]

MagicJigPipe - 13-3-2008 at 15:37

"How much dope do you suppose 500g will produce?"

A quick estimate? Let's say 2g of RP to reduce 1g of (pseudo)ephedrine, so 250g (1/2lb or 8oz) (I know this is extremely rough) of methamphetamine. Assuming a low price of $50/g when sold by the gram that's about $12,500 worth. Not bad if you're into that sort of thing.

The only problem with that is finding that much ephedrine... Oh wait! The Chemical Closet has it! Ha!

Regardless of whether or not TCC turns people in, they (TCC) and the people that buy anything from them (except for maybe HCl, CHCl3 or NH4NO3) are mentally diminished in my eyes.

microcosmicus - 13-3-2008 at 16:38

@S.C.Wack What is the source of the quote you posted? Is this a hypothetical example
or a real incident?

@joeoflists and MagicJigPipe If someone gets caught buying the P through the mail, the
prosecutor will do a calculation like what you did, and charge the person with conspiracy to
cook 250g of meth. Alright, they would likely need to show some other chemicals. but
should a hapless home chemist order from these folks, I'm sure they'll find enough other
chemicals and apparatus on his shelf which could be used to cook meth to
convince a jury that the defendant was planning to make meth but they caught him before
he got the rest of the ingredients. On top of that, they will add some charges pertaining
to use of mail in an illegal activity and charges having to do with imports.

joeflsts - 13-3-2008 at 17:06

Quote:
Originally posted by microcosmicus
@S.C.Wack What is the source of the quote you posted? Is this a hypothetical example
or a real incident?

@joeoflists and MagicJigPipe If someone gets caught buying the P through the mail, the
prosecutor will do a calculation like what you did, and charge the person with conspiracy to
cook 250g of meth. Alright, they would likely need to show some other chemicals. but
should a hapless home chemist order from these folks, I'm sure they'll find enough other
chemicals and apparatus on his shelf which could be used to cook meth to
convince a jury that the defendant was planning to make meth but they caught him before
he got the rest of the ingredients. On top of that, they will add some charges pertaining
to use of mail in an illegal activity and charges having to do with imports.


Anyone caught buying a list 1 chemical deserves exactly what they get. Good post.

Joe

Oh no you didn't girlfriend! Ugh!

MagicJigPipe - 13-3-2008 at 19:09

Fuck that shit! I'm sorry but no other group of words could express how I feel about that comment.

That's just bullshit.

If you have a decent home lab, you probably have at least one list 1 chemical in your possession right now. How dare you say that ANYONE ordering a list 1 chemical deserves "what they get".

Errr... :mad:

[Edited on 13-3-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

not_important - 13-3-2008 at 20:13

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/21cfr/cfr/1310/1310_02.htm...

(1) Anthranilic acid, its esters, and its salts (many uses, include easy demo of benzyne)
(2) Benzyl cyanide (simplest aromatic nitrile)
(6) N-Acetylanthranilic acid, its esters, and its salts (see #1)
(8) Phenylacetic acid, its esters, and its salts (a bit problematic, rose and honey scents)
(10) Piperidine and its salts (some uses as a secondary amine)
(13) Methylamine and its salts (simpest amine, a classic)
(14) Ethylamine and its salts
(15) Propionic anhydride (if you're making its esters or amides, useful)
(21) Hydriodic Acid (a lot of uses in inorganic, organic, and photo chemistry)
(22) Benzaldehyde (simplest aromatic aldehyde, dilute solution is synthetic almond 'extract')
(23) Nitroethane
(25) Red Phosphorus (pyro uses, chem uses, let's outlaw an element)
(26) White phosphorus
(27) Hypophosphorous acid and its salts (good reducing agent, usedmany places)
(29) Iodine (argh...)

There are a couplr of organics that are the stock ones for "we've this new reaction, let's throw a lot of substrates at it"; maybe a little easier to argue about. maybe.

and list II
(1) Acetic anhydride
(2) Acetone
(3) Benzyl chloride
(4) Ethyl ether
(5) Potassium permanganate
(6) 2-Butanone (or Methyl Ethyl Ketone or MEK)
(7) Toluene
(8) Hydrochloric acid (including anhydrous hydrogen chloride)
(9) Sulfuric acid
(10) Methyl Isobutyl Ketone (MIBK)
(12)Sodium Permanganate

Got any of those? Got allergies? Or a neighbor who doesn't like you? Badmouth the new US President next year? Boy, locking you up on suspicion of doing bad things. Proof? You posses chemicals on those list, the DEA says there is no legitimate home or amateur use for most of them.

MagicJigPipe - 13-3-2008 at 23:16

I'm almost certain this is the first time in history that a govt. has banned or heavily regulated 2 non-radioactive, non-precious elements. I mean, it just says iodine so could that be construed to mean all ions of I? I-? I3-? My prediction is that iodine ions (especially I-) are next.

It's a sign of the times people.

not_important - 13-3-2008 at 23:48

Quote:
My prediction is that iodine ions (especially I-) are next.


I believe Len said that they were just about so in Oz.

[Edited on 14-3-2008 by not_important]

microcosmicus - 14-3-2008 at 00:51

Over and above whether one thinks amphetamines should be legal or
illegal, over and above considerations of what this is doing to home
chemistry, even to science in general, there is the troubling issue that
the this approach to enforcing the law via proscribing chemicals perverts
basic, well established legal principles. Namely, to prove a crime, especially
an attempted crime, one is expected to demonstrate means, motive and
opportunity. Here, however, means alone are being propounded as sufficient.

Therefore, It is one thing to say "Anyone caught cooking meth deserves
exactly what they get.." and quite another to say "Anyone caught buying a
list 1 chemical deserves exactly what they get.". To illustrate, suppose that
someone were in contact with known drug dealers, were actively swimming
around cook listservers looking for information, had only chemicals
and apparatus related to meth cookery in his lab, and got caught ordering
phosphorous. In that case, I think most of us would agree that this person
was trying to cook meth. However, if somebody else happened to order
phosphorous, but also had a varied supply of chemicals one would expect in
a chemical laboratory on theshelf and there was no evidence linking him to
drug dealers or cooks. I would have a lot of reasonable doubts that this person
was cooking drugs and think he should be acquitted. Ordinarily, conspiracy
cases are hard to prove but, in the zeal to enforce this law on drugs, the
safeguards have been set aside to make convicting easy. This is particularly the
case for Texas law.

To underscore how lopsided this is, let us apply the same standard to a
different situation, bike stealing. Suppose that someone happened to
spend a lot of time hanging around bike racks, was seen in a chop
shop, and got caught after picking up a bolt cutter from the hardware
store and heading towards a bike rack at a time when there were
few people around. Under those circumstances, a good case could
be made that that person intended to steal a bike and would have
carried through with his plan had he not been stopped. However,
it would be a quite a different matter if someone were accused
solely on the basis of owning a boltcutter and picks with no evidence
to indicate that that person was preparing to put them to use in theivery.

As for predictions, I think Cl2 is next. Maybe I'll say more about this later,
but the sense I get is that the focus of attention of the feds has shifted from
drug dealers to terrorists --- in particular, think of Operation Green
Cloud. As for iodine, I would not be surprised if, in a few years, once
the tightening on ephedrine runs the cooks out of business, lobbying
from horse breeders and the like will lead to the restrictions on I2 being
lifted to what they were a year ago. However, if things stay their
current course, this may be little cause for rejoicing as other things we
now take for granted could be banned --- maybe possession of a chlorate
cell will constitute proof that one is a terrorist improvising explosives,
for instance. Of course, P is equally well suited for incendiary devices,
so fat chance of seeing it legalized. As far as elements go, in the
thread on the DHS list, some people mentioned that Ge is
being watched.

MagicJigPipe - 14-3-2008 at 09:51

I believe it was germane (GeH4), not the element germanium.

joeflsts - 14-3-2008 at 11:47

Quote:
Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Fuck that shit! I'm sorry but no other group of words could express how I feel about that comment.

That's just bullshit.

If you have a decent home lab, you probably have at least one list 1 chemical in your possession right now. How dare you say that ANYONE ordering a list 1 chemical deserves "what they get".

Errr... :mad:

[Edited on 13-3-2008 by MagicJigPipe]


Get the proper credentials. If you have a list 1 chemical and you get busted you have no one but your self to bitch about. if you don't like the law do something to change it.

Joe

joeflsts - 14-3-2008 at 11:50

Quote:
Originally posted by microcosmicus
Over and above whether one thinks amphetamines should be legal or
illegal, over and above considerations of what this is doing to home
chemistry, even to science in general, there is the troubling issue that
the this approach to enforcing the law via proscribing chemicals perverts
basic, well established legal principles. Namely, to prove a crime, especially
an attempted crime, one is expected to demonstrate means, motive and
opportunity. Here, however, means alone are being propounded as sufficient.

Therefore, It is one thing to say "Anyone caught cooking meth deserves
exactly what they get.." and quite another to say "Anyone caught buying a
list 1 chemical deserves exactly what they get.". To illustrate, suppose that
someone were in contact with known drug dealers, were actively swimming
around cook listservers looking for information, had only chemicals
and apparatus related to meth cookery in his lab, and got caught ordering
phosphorous. In that case, I think most of us would agree that this person
was trying to cook meth. However, if somebody else happened to order
phosphorous, but also had a varied supply of chemicals one would expect in
a chemical laboratory on theshelf and there was no evidence linking him to
drug dealers or cooks. I would have a lot of reasonable doubts that this person
was cooking drugs and think he should be acquitted. Ordinarily, conspiracy
cases are hard to prove but, in the zeal to enforce this law on drugs, the
safeguards have been set aside to make convicting easy. This is particularly the
case for Texas law.

To underscore how lopsided this is, let us apply the same standard to a
different situation, bike stealing. Suppose that someone happened to
spend a lot of time hanging around bike racks, was seen in a chop
shop, and got caught after picking up a bolt cutter from the hardware
store and heading towards a bike rack at a time when there were
few people around. Under those circumstances, a good case could
be made that that person intended to steal a bike and would have
carried through with his plan had he not been stopped. However,
it would be a quite a different matter if someone were accused
solely on the basis of owning a boltcutter and picks with no evidence
to indicate that that person was preparing to put them to use in theivery.

As for predictions, I think Cl2 is next. Maybe I'll say more about this later,
but the sense I get is that the focus of attention of the feds has shifted from
drug dealers to terrorists --- in particular, think of Operation Green
Cloud. As for iodine, I would not be surprised if, in a few years, once
the tightening on ephedrine runs the cooks out of business, lobbying
from horse breeders and the like will lead to the restrictions on I2 being
lifted to what they were a year ago. However, if things stay their
current course, this may be little cause for rejoicing as other things we
now take for granted could be banned --- maybe possession of a chlorate
cell will constitute proof that one is a terrorist improvising explosives,
for instance. Of course, P is equally well suited for incendiary devices,
so fat chance of seeing it legalized. As far as elements go, in the
thread on the DHS list, some people mentioned that Ge is
being watched.


Do something to change the law. Simply breaking it or setting yourself for charges, bogus or not, is not going to change the law and prove that it needs tighter enforcement. I don't like the law but I'm actively working with my representatives to get them changed - not sitting on here complaining that the law is out to get me.

Joe

pantone159 - 14-3-2008 at 14:24

Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
Anyone caught buying a list 1 chemical deserves exactly what they get.


I have to disagree with this 100%.

First of all, buying a list 1 does not actually mean buying a list 1 for making drugs. There are many non-drug uses for a lot of them, including specifically RP. (E.g., woelen describes a number of experiments using RP, and I am 100% sure he isn't using to reduce pseudoephedrine.)

Second, to my knowledge, there is nothing illegal about buying a list 1 chemical. AFAIK, the only legal requirements are that the seller must keep paperwork about the buyer. In practical terms, list 1 chems are not available to hobbyists, but that doesn't mean illegal. (Importing such may change things, and there may also be local laws that also change it, e.g. in Texas.)

So you are saying that, someone who buys something that:
a) Has legitimate uses in the hobby we all enjoy, and
b) is not illegal to own
deserves 'what they get' which may likely be a considerable prison term?

No, I cannot agree with that at all.

However, I will agree, that anybody who tries to buy something fom TCC is indeed a fool, but only because it looks like an obvious sting.

-jeffB - 14-3-2008 at 15:23

Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
Do something to change the law. Simply breaking it or setting yourself for charges, bogus or not, is not going to change the law and prove that it needs tighter enforcement. I don't like the law but I'm actively working with my representatives to get them changed - not sitting on here complaining that the law is out to get me.


Detailed suggestions are welcome. How do you work with your representatives? Is there another thread where you've discussed this?

I'd love to take this up with my representatives, but I'm sort of at a loss how to proceed, and how to respond when they say "but the scope of the meth problem outweighs the desires of a tiny hobbyist minority".

[Edited on 3-14-08 by -jeffB]

MagicJigPipe - 14-3-2008 at 16:00

JeffB, they will always say that and as long as more than 50% of voters don't care then nothing will change. I have tried the "talking to my rep" thing before and I can say that most of the time the rep never gets your message/letter.

Unfortunately, it's too late for democracy because that's out the window. The only way to change things now is ACTION (not words). Hopefully, we won't be left with only one choice of action (seems inevitable).

"I don't like the law but I'm actively working with my representatives to get them changed - not sitting on here complaining that the law is out to get me."

Good luck with that. I'm actually glad you're still doing that just in case it isn't a waste of time.

evil_lurker - 14-3-2008 at 16:44

You might as well give up on getting the governement to cave on RP restrictions cause it just ain't happening.

The only thing that might be accomplished is to bitch about the registration costs which to my knowledge is required for purchase... IIRC the fees alone run over $2K USD.

kilowatt - 14-3-2008 at 21:11

Quote:

I'm almost certain this is the first time in history that a govt. has banned or heavily regulated 2 non-radioactive, non-precious elements. I mean, it just says iodine so could that be construed to mean all ions of I? I-? I3-? My prediction is that iodine ions (especially I-) are next.

The only other time in history I can think of where similar controls have existed is during the Inquisition in the Dark Ages. Someone caught dabbling with alchemy and other little understood sciences would have been convicted as a heretic and burned.

With regard to your iodine ion prediction, that is already the case. Any iodine salts (KI, NaI, etc) and hydrogen iodide are just as heavily regulated as I2. Iodates are also listed as far as I know.

Quote:

Anyone caught buying a list 1 chemical deserves exactly what they get. Good post.


Why did you sign up to a message board where you believe many or most of its members deserve a hefty prison sentence or at least a destructve paramilitary raid on their home and lab? Any decent home chemist has list 1 chemicals, as was stated earlier, and the credentials to possess them "legitimately" as you suggest are far out of reach for any indvidual or anyone without major funding really, as I believe has also been implied in this thread. Sadly, at this point, government restrictions will continue to build regardless of how much anyone protests. Voting for Ron Paul as president is the one of the best things we can do right now.

-jeffB - 15-3-2008 at 06:43

Quote:
Originally posted by kilowatt
With regard to your iodine ion prediction, that is already the case. Any iodine salts (KI, NaI, etc) and hydrogen iodide are just as heavily regulated as I2. Iodates are also listed as far as I know.


No, sodium and potassium iodide are still freely available, albeit expensive as ever. I'm considering a "lifetime buy" on KI, though, because I do expect it to be regulated in the next couple of years.

YT2095 - 15-3-2008 at 07:07

I have a simple question (not worthy of an entire thread) but this Iodine and its drug use, now I know Nothing about this stuff nor do I want to, but WHY Iodine? can`t Chlorine or Bromine be used instead?
and surely they can`t ban all of those (can they?)

it all seems Quite insane from my perspective as to WHY RP and Iodine???

a Yes-No answer is fine, Are these the only 2 items that will work?

Nicodem - 15-3-2008 at 07:33

It is not iodine itself that is used in the reduction of (pseudo)ephedrine. Iodine is used to form hydrogen iodide in situ by its reaction with moist red phosphorous. The hydrogen iodide is the actual reagent that reduces (pseudo)ephedrine to that dreaded illegal drug. So, as you see, chlorine and bromine are no alternatives since their reduction leads to HCl and HBr which are not able to reduce the substrate.
It is not like other methods can not be used. Illegal manufacturers of meth can also use the Birch reduction, hydrogenation or other methods all well documented in every well stocked library. The problem is not the iodine or phosphorous. There are deeper political reasons for banning iodine instead of the precursors that need to be banned - pseudoephedrine and ephedrine. The relationship between politics, neoliberalism and meth is a very complex issue that can not be addressed considering only the prohibition. Haven't you noticed how pseudoephedrine containing products are being advertised in EU lately? Haven't you noticed anything unusual?

EDIT: I remembered that I already posted about the differences between HI, HBr and HCl in the reduction of alkyl halides. I guess you are not interested in the organic aspects of the reaction but here is that post anyway.

[Edited on 15/3/2008 by Nicodem]

YT2095 - 15-3-2008 at 07:49

Thanks for that, and No I can`t say I`v noticed, or if I have, I haven`t known it.
I`v no idea what things have it in there? beyond the American version of the Vics nasal device that some Skier got busted for in the olympics several years ago.

I always assumed that with HCl from table salt, all you had to do to make HI was use NaI instead.

anyway, that`s answered my question more than perfectly, Thanks :)

organometallic - 15-3-2008 at 07:51

Yes! They're being advertised as "contains pseudoephedrine!", wait, why would that be advantageous to anyone but meth cooks? I'm sure I saw some sort of cold medication on TV the other day.. sudafed maybe, that said in large letters "Contains pseudoephedrine" at the bottom..

joeflsts - 15-3-2008 at 08:14

Quote:
Originally posted by pantone159
Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
Anyone caught buying a list 1 chemical deserves exactly what they get.


I have to disagree with this 100%.

First of all, buying a list 1 does not actually mean buying a list 1 for making drugs. There are many non-drug uses for a lot of them, including specifically RP. (E.g., woelen describes a number of experiments using RP, and I am 100% sure he isn't using to reduce pseudoephedrine.)

Second, to my knowledge, there is nothing illegal about buying a list 1 chemical. AFAIK, the only legal requirements are that the seller must keep paperwork about the buyer. In practical terms, list 1 chems are not available to hobbyists, but that doesn't mean illegal. (Importing such may change things, and there may also be local laws that also change it, e.g. in Texas.)

So you are saying that, someone who buys something that:
a) Has legitimate uses in the hobby we all enjoy, and
b) is not illegal to own
deserves 'what they get' which may likely be a considerable prison term?

No, I cannot agree with that at all.

However, I will agree, that anybody who tries to buy something fom TCC is indeed a fool, but only because it looks like an obvious sting.


I should have been more clear - I believe that buying drug making chemicals to make drugs from TCC is only going to get the buyer what he/she deserves. I didn't mean buying a list 1 chemical for non-drug making activities.

Sorry.
Joe

MagicJigPipe - 15-3-2008 at 08:26

Uhhhh... because pseudoephedrine is the most effective OTC nasal decongestant that I know of. Regular people buy pseudoephedrine as well. I just bought some medicine 2 days ago specifically because it had pseudoephedrine because the drug they tried to replace it with (phenylephrine) doesn't do shit. Not to mention it (psudafed) "speeds you up" about 3 times as much as caffeine (at least it does me) so I assume their are some people that take it as a pick-me-up (milder than ephedrine but same principle).

The Vics inhalers have nothing to do with pseudoephedrine or meth for that matter. They contain l-methamphetamine (d-meth is the psychoactive isomer) which is an extremely MILD nasal decongestant and they only contain 50mg per inhaler.

Obviously, prohibition is not the way to address anything that needs to be solved.

Did you know that in the US if you buy too much pseudoephedrine containing products in a certain period of time you are guilty of a crime regardless of whether or not you plan on making meth or have any of the equipment or other precursors? That's justice for you!

microcosmicus - 15-3-2008 at 10:21

Quote:

and surely they can`t ban all of those (can they?)

Sure they could and, if things keep on their present course, I consider this possibility quite
likely. Remember that drugs are not the only reason for banning chemicals ---- there is
also this war on terror. In particular, note that the restrictions on ephedrine come
from the so-called Combat Methamphetamine Epidemic Act, which is actually
an ammendment to the PATRIOT act, which is ostensibly about fighting terrorism.
Given current trends, I expect that there will not be much more in the way of banning drug
precursors, but that chemicals will be banned for reasons having to do with terror, which
means that amateur scientists in the U.S,. are going from the frying pan straight into the
fire --- if you think drug laws are lopsided, enforcement is severe, and sentences are harsh,
compare with military tribunals and what is going down at Guantanamo.

In particular, they have already taken the first step towards banning Cl2 with Operation
Green Cloud where the police made a big halogenous stink about how easy it would be
for a terrorist to obtain a cylinder or two of Cl2 and wreak havoc and called for tighter
controls on dangerous chemicals. Already, Homeland Security has its list of watched
chemicals, which happens to include Cl2. To be sure, the current thresholds are in the
tanker car size, but the DHS has the authority to change them and a recommendation
by the NYPD is exactly the sort of thing which would get a threshold lowered.

As for Br2, we all know that it is easy enough to prepare it by the jugful from pool
brominators. If the cops are all in a tizzy about what a terrorist could do with a
cylinder of Cl2,. I am quite sure the prospect of a suicidal fanatic busting open a
bottle of Br2 in a crowded room would send equal shivers down their spines with
the expected result.

Therefore, if things stay on their current course, I think a ban on all halogens
in the U.S. is quite plausible. Should it happen, I assume that it will look like the current I2
ban with a few exceptions carved out for what are considered the legitimate uses.
Needless to say, home experimentation will not be one of those exceptions.

Quote:

Haven't you noticed how pseudoephedrine containing products are being advertised in EU lately?
Haven't you noticed anything unusual?


I haven't for the simple reason that I happen to be located on the other side of the Atlantic. Could
you tell us more?

woelen - 15-3-2008 at 12:31

I'm in NL and also here, I did not notice anything unusual about ephedrine or pseudoephedrine. As far as I know, these compounds cannot be purchased over here. It is illegal to sell these chemicals without a written prescription, which clearly explains that there is a medical reason for buying the material. I am quite happy with that. The same is true for sassafras oil and saffrole. You cannot buy these legally over here. I really hope it will remain this way. As long as these are hard to obtain, I am quite sure that stuff like red P, iodine and common acids remain available (at least as far as drugs is concerned).

niggaknow - 15-3-2008 at 14:59

Iodine is listed here

http://www.elementalscientific.net/pdf/2007%20Chemicals.pdf

I've gotten a lot of things from this company over the years.
http://www.elementalscientific.net

pantone159 - 15-3-2008 at 16:07

Quote:
Originally posted by evil_lurker
the registration costs which to my knowledge is required for purchase... IIRC the fees alone run over $2K USD.


What are the legal requirements for having List 1 chemicals? All I know about is requirements that sellers keep good records (and that you stand out as suspicious). I don't know of any legal reason why you can't have them if you can get them, but many here seem to think otherwise.

MagicJigPipe - 15-3-2008 at 16:54

Yes, many people are under the impression that it is illegal to obtain list 1 chemicals. Especially, the WetDreamers (don't get me started on those guys, argggg...). Well, it's not. (Pseudo)ephedrine can be purchased OTC from any pharmacy in the US and it's list 1. Safrole and gamma-butryolactone can be purchased legally as well. It's just, if you do, you're asking for trouble.

woelen - 16-3-2008 at 04:22

That's exactly the problem in the USA. These things should become illegal without prescription or licenses and then they can release stuff like I2, red P and many others.

MagicJigPipe - 16-3-2008 at 07:12

I completely disagree. Nothing more should become regulated. I can't afford to go to the doctor right now so I shouldn't be allowed to buy my sinus medicine?

The solution to regulation isn't more regulation. That's just absurd. They wouldn't unlist I2 and RP anyway, this is the US, not Europe. Phenylacetone is a controlled substance yet methylamine is still schedule 1.

Honestly, I think making it a prescription would make it easier to get than it is (at least for people with money). That way, a doctor on the "inside" could write a script for much larger amounts than what is currently allowed, especially if it were not scheduled or in any schedule other than II.

Making things less available to the poor and disenfranchised is crap.

Unfortunately for people in Europe, TCC (if it is a real business) is only making things worse. I have a feeling that if businesses like that continue to operate then regulation is imminent. Unless, of course, people stop using amphetamines.

YT2095 - 16-3-2008 at 07:34

Quote:
Originally posted by MagicJigPipe

Honestly, I think making it a prescription would make it easier to get than it is (at least for people with money). That way, a doctor on the "inside" could write a script for much larger amounts than what is currently allowed, especially if it were not scheduled or in any schedule other than II.


and what Exactly stops that happening now?

sorry, but that`s a piss poor reason/excuse.

MagicJigPipe - 16-3-2008 at 08:15

Because people aren't forced to do it that way. Excuse? How about there doesn't need to be an excuse. I will NEVER support increased regulation even if people think home chemistry will benefit. That stance is just as flawed as regulating chemicals like Cl2 to stop terrorism. "Well if we stop terrorism by regulating more chemicals then more chemicals will be unregulated because there won't be terrorism!" WTF mates!?

Piss poor excuse. Heh. Like I ever said it was an excuse. I am happy with the fact that if a poor person not eligable for medicaid needs effective sinus medication, they can still get it from the pharmacy. Even if that means that meth cooks can get it as well.

Meth hysteria has blinded people. It is hypocritical to support the regulation of pseudoephedrine to help home chemistry which thrives on lack of regulation. Do you not see that?

[Edited on 16-3-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

YT2095 - 16-3-2008 at 08:27

you tell me then, what Other use is this compound for in the home Lab other than Drug making?

now offset that against RP and I2 !

MagicJigPipe - 16-3-2008 at 11:19

What? Pseudoephedrine? I admit, it is almost useless in home chemistry but you're missing the point.

[Edited on 16-3-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

woelen - 16-3-2008 at 13:31

If I am reading your responses, MagicJigPipe, then apparently not everybody has good medical care in the USA? Then I think that is the flaw of the system. Every person in NL has at least some basic medical care and if a medicine is needed, then such a person can get a prescription. In fact, for many things people prefer prescribed medicines, because these have not to be paid by those people, while basic stuff which can be purchased freely has to be paid by themselves.

But let's not go into a political discussion about tax-paying and the medical care system, that's not the purpose of sciencemadness. I got your point, and I hope you got mine (from my NL point of view).

Polverone - 16-3-2008 at 13:37

I would support prescription-only pseudoephedrine/ephedrine if I thought that it would actually roll back unreasonable restrictions on reagents of broader utility, but it won't, so I don't. Anthranilic acid is still List I and shows no signs of moving from it, though quaaludes haven't been clandestinely produced or or enjoyed recreational popularity for more than a generation in the US. It's extremely difficult to roll back regulations once they are in place, even if the original rationale no longer applies. There is no give-and-take with regulators, only take, so I think it is foolish to believe that they can be appeased by anything hobby chemists do. Preemptive calls for regulation by hobbyists (in hope of staving off worse regulations) are just going to knot the noose that much faster.

pantone159 - 16-3-2008 at 19:09

Pseudoephedrine is getting more restricted, at least here and I thought everywhere in the USA. Now, you have to go to the real pharmacist (not a clerk), and show ID which is logged.

If they did this 10 years ago, maybe controls on RP/I2 would not have happened.

I don't think there will be any rollback on precursor regulations unless there is a big shift re drugs policy away from prohibition/LE. Without that, no politician will support backing off on anything.

0U812 - 16-3-2008 at 19:56

The Chemical Closet

I ordered from the company back in January, after thinking I got ripped off and sweating during the wait, my chems finally arrived. Took three weeks though, so much for "Fast Discrete Delivery"!!

evil_lurker - 16-3-2008 at 21:13

Take a picture of the reagents and maybe I will believe you.

Nicodem - 17-3-2008 at 00:24

Quote:
Originally posted by microcosmicus
Quote:

Haven't you noticed how pseudoephedrine containing products are being advertised in EU lately?
Haven't you noticed anything unusual?


I haven't for the simple reason that I happen to be located on the other side of the Atlantic. Could
you tell us more?

If you happen to be located on the other side of the Atlantic, then you already saw it all.

A couple of years ago the situation about (pseudo)ephedrine in more or less entire Europe (not just the EU) was just as Woelen described above for the Netherlands.
Things dramatically started changing about two years ago when the restrictions on pseudoephedrine containing products in the USA begun to get implemented. This was first evident in certain EU countries where you would all of a sudden see about a fifth of all commercials promoting pseudoephedrine based OTC medicines, especially during the flu season. Coincidentally blatant tweaker's symbolism and iconography is used in most of these commercials and messages that impute CNS stimulation activity ("it makes you feel good", "you can be more effective at your work", "makes you strong", etc.). Mind that earlier there used to be a strong regulation over pseudoephedrine and in most countries even nor-pseudoephedrine was not available without prescription. The only knowledge and associations with the word "pseudoephedrine" that a very small minority of Europeans have is with the USA culture and their meth (mostly from media), nearly nobody knows it as a decongestant and the rest of them have no associations at all since they never heard about it anyway. Therefore, I have no idea why it would be advantageous to promote flu medicines as "Contains pseudoephedrine".
Medicines containing up to 100mg pseudoephedrine per pill are now completely OTC in many European countries. The European Commission now approves even medicines containing as much as 120mg of pseudoephedrine per pill! (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/78686.php)

And these changes are occurring despite the EU signing various international protocols for methamphetamine abuse control. Be ready for the meth-americanization of the EU:

Quote:
Pseudoephedrine

Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if she will publish the advice she has received on making over the counter medicines containing pseudoephedrine available on prescription only. [126845]

Caroline Flint: There has been increasing concern from the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and the Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) that pseudoephedrine and ephedrine can be extracted from over the counter (OTC) remedies relatively easily and used in the manufacture of methylamphetamine. Methylamphetamine was reclassified on 18 January 2007 by the Home Office as a Class A controlled drug, based on the recommendation of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD).

Although the prevalence of misuse of methylamphetamine is believed to be currently low in the United Kingdom, ACPO are receiving increasing levels of intelligence about the prevalence of methylamphetamine. If methylamphetamine did secure a hold in the UK, the consequences would undoubtedly be very serious. The international experience shows that misuse can spread rapidly when certain conditions prevail and the advice of UK enforcement authorities is that most of these conditions now prevail in the UK.

In January 2007 the Commission on Human Medicines (CHM) considered the evidence of a risk to public health from OTC availability of the precursors to methylamphetamine, pseudoephedrine and ephedrine. The evidence to date centres on advice from ACPO and SOCA that the availability of methylamphetamine is increasing, evidenced in part by the increase in the number of illicit laboratories manufacturing methylamphetamine found by the police in the UK. The police have identified in specific cases that multiple packs of particular pharmacy pseudoephedrine containing products had been purchased and used in the illicit manufacture of methylamphetamine. They have also identified that, in part, these packs were obtained from numerous pharmacies to obtain adequate quantities for manufacturing.

The CHM recommended that changing the legal status of pseudoephedrine and ephedrine together with restricting the pack size was necessary to protect public health in the UK and that a consultation exercise should be conducted on these proposals. Ministers accepted this advice and a full public consultation exercise commenced on 7 March 2007 and can be accessed via the MHRA’s website at:

www.mhra.gov.uk

(from http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/c... , underlines added)

MagicJigPipe - 17-3-2008 at 03:27

Heh... I don't know about meth americanization just because psudafed is more prevelant. That sounds like DEA rationale. TIME RELEASE pseudoephedrine products are sold here that contain up to 240mg per pill. That doesn't mean they're giving out big doses to get people "high".

Sorry if this is incoherrent but I just woke up to type up an interesting dream I had.

woelen - 17-3-2008 at 05:48

Quote:
The CHM recommended that changing the legal status of pseudoephedrine and ephedrine together with restricting the pack size was necessary to protect public health in the UK and that a consultation exercise should be conducted on these proposals. Ministers accepted this advice and a full public consultation exercise commenced on 7 March 2007 and can be accessed via the MHRA’s website at:

www.mhra.gov.uk

This is an example of restricting the right chemical. There is concern of misuse of (pseudo)ephedrine in the UK and the only reasonable response to this is to restrict this material (August 2007).

http://www.mhra.gov.uk/NewsCentre/Pressreleases/CON2032216

No mention is made of restricting P, I2 or whatever suitable reductor, but restricting the stuff itself.

[Edited on 17-3-08 by woelen]

MagicJigPipe - 17-3-2008 at 08:35

Well, we obviously have very different philosophies concerning govt regulation, control of the populace and nanny state type laws and/or restrictions. You are right that it is a public health matter though. Public health matters aren't solved (it should be obvious using the US as an example) through prohibition and regulation. Really though, what is the difference between the govt banning chemicals and the govt banning pseudoephedrine? You don't care about psudafed but you care about the chemicals (ephedrine is a chemical). I on the other hand, don't believe in more regulations, whether or not I utilize and/or care for the material being regulated.

Now the reasoning behing banning drugs/precursors is that they people CAN harm themselves with them and they CAN harm others with them (just like any physical object for that matter). Okay, with that same reasoning you support, H2SO4, HNO3, xOH, NOx, barium salts, bromide salts and pretty much any other chemical etc... should be regulated as well.

More regulation is NEVER the answer, IMO. A society cannot call itself free if people aren't free to make their own choices. If the people don't want to be free, fine, but they shouldn't kid themselves.

First three definitions of freedom for reference:

1. the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3. the power to determine action without restraint.

Does anybody in Europe or the Americas fit that description?

Sorry, but I don't think this is terribly OT. Let me know if everyone thinks otherwise.

mechem - 22-3-2008 at 16:30

Don't know about the chemical closet, prob just a con, just look at the Phenylacetic Acid they are selling, looks like water not white cryts. If you order they will prob send you fake watched list chems or expensive safer chems.
As far as I know we do not have entrapment in the UK unlike the US. has anyone tried ordering listed chems from them.
If anyone wanted to make something as horrible as meth in the UK they could easily buy the eph. otc, ebay uk is full of listings for iodine and I have seen P their as well.
If you live in the US don't even think about it.

anotheronebitesthedust - 22-3-2008 at 19:45

Be weary of anyone who supports TCC or claims to have successfully ordered chems from them.

The Chemical Closet has a Paypal account registered in Arizona. The site is registered to a person with the same name as an Arizona law enforcement officer. Their pictures of chemicals are faulty.

I tried ordering three times for shits and giggles and each time I waited a month and filed for refund through Paypal. I then got a call from RCMP Chemical Division officer wanting to talk. If I lived in the U.S.A. I'd be sitting in a jail cell.

I still have an email and I'll post their IP a little later.

Don't even talk about IF it's a sting. There's no question of IF.

MagicJigPipe - 22-3-2008 at 21:19

By the way, I would like to emphasize the fact that I think even people who are manufacturing methamphetamine don't deserve what they get in this country. I despise meth but prohibition, in the first place, is stupid and obviously ineffective.

The ONLY reason a methamphetamine manufacturer should get in ANY trouble at all is if they A) Sell a dangerous or extremely impure product B) kill somebody with the product that they sell C) sell to kids D) take advantage of addicts or others E) commit a crime while intoxicated F) drive intoxicated (already a crime)

Personal recreational use of even amphetamines is okay in my book. That is only because I am anti-prohibition and it doesn't mean I like methamphetamines or condone their use.

pantone159 - 23-3-2008 at 08:42

Quote:
Can you send me the link to this news article?


I found these two articles, however they did not mention TCC by name, just an 'overseas website'.

http://www.bakersfield.com/hourly_news/story/301462.html
http://www.eyeoutforyou.com/home/12102341.html

joeflsts - 23-3-2008 at 08:45

Quote:
Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust
Be weary of anyone who supports TCC or claims to have successfully ordered chems from them.

The Chemical Closet has a Paypal account registered in Arizona. The site is registered to a person with the same name as an Arizona law enforcement officer. Their pictures of chemicals are faulty.

I tried ordering three times for shits and giggles and each time I waited a month and filed for refund through Paypal. I then got a call from RCMP Chemical Division officer wanting to talk. If I lived in the U.S.A. I'd be sitting in a jail cell.

I still have an email and I'll post their IP a little later.

Don't even talk about IF it's a sting. There's no question of IF.


I think you should post more information.
What is the name of the person in Arizona?
What did you order on both occassions?
What is your case number with the RCMP?
What is the contact information for the RCMP Chemical Division?

Joe

anotheronebitesthedust - 23-3-2008 at 11:57

Eat a dick Joeflorist. I've read your posts and you've revealed yourself as a piece of shit.

WHOIS Search

anotheronebitesthedust - 23-3-2008 at 12:08

Hey whaddya know. The IP in the email from Chemical Closet is based in Arizona.
148.167.148.100
Quote:
OrgName: City of Phoenix
OrgID: CITYOF-78
Address: 251 W Washington
City: Phoenix
StateProv: AZ
PostalCode: 85003
Country: US

NetRange: 148.167.0.0 - 148.167.255.255
CIDR: 148.167.0.0/16
NetName: PHXGOV
NetHandle: NET-148-167-0-0-1
Parent: NET-148-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
NameServer: COPNS1.CI.PHOENIX.AZ.US
NameServer: COPNS2.CI.PHOENIX.AZ.US
NameServer: NS1.DURU.NET
NameServer: NS2.DURU.NET
Comment:
RegDate: 1991-05-09
Updated: 2008-01-10

RAbuseHandle: ITDPH-ARIN
RAbuseName: ITD PhxWeb
RAbusePhone: +1-602-256-3527
RAbuseEmail: mailbox.ecam@phoenix.gov

RNOCHandle: ITDPH-ARIN
RNOCName: ITD PhxWeb
RNOCPhone: +1-602-256-3527
RNOCEmail: mailbox.ecam@phoenix.gov

RTechHandle: ITDPH-ARIN
RTechName: ITD PhxWeb
RTechPhone: +1-602-256-3527
RTechEmail: mailbox.ecam@phoenix.gov

OrgTechHandle: DP1317-ARIN
OrgTechName: Pristavec, David
OrgTechPhone: +1-602-256-3484
OrgTechEmail: dpristav@ci.phoenix.az.us

MagicJigPipe - 23-3-2008 at 13:04

Can you please elaborate on your experiences, anotherone bitesthedust? Like what you ordered and so on.

joeflsts - 23-3-2008 at 14:10

Quote:
Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust
Hey whaddya know. The IP in the email from Chemical Closet is based in Arizona.
148.167.148.100
Quote:
OrgName: City of Phoenix
OrgID: CITYOF-78
Address: 251 W Washington
City: Phoenix
StateProv: AZ
PostalCode: 85003
Country: US

NetRange: 148.167.0.0 - 148.167.255.255
CIDR: 148.167.0.0/16
NetName: PHXGOV
NetHandle: NET-148-167-0-0-1
Parent: NET-148-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
NameServer: COPNS1.CI.PHOENIX.AZ.US
NameServer: COPNS2.CI.PHOENIX.AZ.US
NameServer: NS1.DURU.NET
NameServer: NS2.DURU.NET
Comment:
RegDate: 1991-05-09
Updated: 2008-01-10

RAbuseHandle: ITDPH-ARIN
RAbuseName: ITD PhxWeb
RAbusePhone: +1-602-256-3527
RAbuseEmail: mailbox.ecam@phoenix.gov

RNOCHandle: ITDPH-ARIN
RNOCName: ITD PhxWeb
RNOCPhone: +1-602-256-3527
RNOCEmail: mailbox.ecam@phoenix.gov

RTechHandle: ITDPH-ARIN
RTechName: ITD PhxWeb
RTechPhone: +1-602-256-3527
RTechEmail: mailbox.ecam@phoenix.gov

OrgTechHandle: DP1317-ARIN
OrgTechName: Pristavec, David
OrgTechPhone: +1-602-256-3484
OrgTechEmail: dpristav@ci.phoenix.az.us


Really?

Registrant:
The Chemical Closet
3 Sawley Road
Greater Manchester, Manchester M40 8BB
United Kingdom

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: THECHEMICALCLOSET.COM
Created on: 29-Jun-07
Expires on: 29-Jun-08
Last Updated on: 29-Jun-07

Administrative Contact:
Porter, James james.porterthe3rd@yahoo.co.uk
The Chemical Closet
3 Sawley Road
Greater Manchester, Manchester M40 8BB
United Kingdom
447742129481 Fax --

Technical Contact:
Porter, James james.porterthe3rd@yahoo.co.uk
The Chemical Closet
3 Sawley Road
Greater Manchester, Manchester M40 8BB
United Kingdom
447742129481 Fax --

Domain servers in listed order:
NS57.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
NS58.DOMAINCONTROL.COM

A simple PING to www.thechemicalcloset.com reveals that the actual IP address resolves to 72.167.11.220 which isn't even remotely close to what you posted.

Once again -

What did you buy?
Who contacted you?
What is the contact information for the "Chemical Division" you referenced?

Simple question for someone telling the truth.

Joe

DJF90 - 23-3-2008 at 14:36

Seems like you've uncovered some pretty interesting information Joe...

joeflsts - 23-3-2008 at 16:22

Quote:
Originally posted by DJF90
Seems like you've uncovered some pretty interesting information Joe...


Information that is available to anyone. Don't confuse my position I suspect that buying from The Chemical Closet is bad news if you are from the US, if you buy restricted chemicals. It might even be a sting operation for all I know - but no one has proven it. @anotheronebitesthedust said that he/she purchased from this place and was interogated by LEOs in Canada. I am asking for more details. In response this person told me (at least I think it was me) to eat a penis.

Nice.

Joe

anotheronebitesthedust - 23-3-2008 at 17:28

The IP I posted was from an email.

joeflsts - 23-3-2008 at 17:47

Quote:
Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust
The IP I posted was from an email.


Post the email header.

Joe

MagicJigPipe - 23-3-2008 at 23:28

"Post the email header."

Or at least SOMETHING that would be hard to fabricate. Even a story with lots of details would be better than what you have provided us thus far.

pantone159 - 24-3-2008 at 06:56

Others have reported getting spam from TCC. (Not me though.) Where do those emails seem to have come from?

joeflsts - 24-3-2008 at 07:52

Quote:
Originally posted by pantone159
Others have reported getting spam from TCC. (Not me though.) Where do those emails seem to have come from?


I deleted the original spam mail that I got from them. I do have a copy of the email that I replied with asking them not to contact me and their email address is from google or aol I think. I'm going by memory since I'm at my office at the moment. When I get home today will tell you exactly.

I did check last night and it did not come from from anything remotely associated with the Government address given above.

I really would be intereted to see if this site is a LEO site but I don't think that it is.

Joe

joeflsts - 24-3-2008 at 14:47

Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
Quote:
Originally posted by pantone159
Others have reported getting spam from TCC. (Not me though.) Where do those emails seem to have come from?


I deleted the original spam mail that I got from them. I do have a copy of the email that I replied with asking them not to contact me and their email address is from google or aol I think. I'm going by memory since I'm at my office at the moment. When I get home today will tell you exactly.

I did check last night and it did not come from from anything remotely associated with the Government address given above.

I really would be intereted to see if this site is a LEO site but I don't think that it is.

Joe


This is the email address used:

u.k.t.c.c.sales@googlemail.com

Hardly a LEO address in Arizona.

Thansks,
Joe

anotheronebitesthedust - 24-3-2008 at 17:02

Weird. Every email I've ever received from them came from sales@thechemicalcloset.co.uk

chemoleo - 24-3-2008 at 18:05

anotheronebitesthedust, you are wasting forum space, as you aren't addressing, in fact avoiding answering any of the repeated friendly requests.

Whilst your response ("Eat a dick Joeflorist. I've read your posts and you've revealed yourself as a piece of shit.") is not so friendly.

Please give me a reason why you are not a waste of bytes? Your past posts are certainly not worth a glance.

Sharpen up or you may well be overstaying your welcome here.

anotheronebitesthedust - 26-3-2008 at 14:14

What chemicals I order and the details of said business transactions is nobody's business but my own. Nor are the in depth details.

The sole purpose of my posting in this thread was to inform and advise anyone interested of the legitimacy of a company called The Chemical Closet whom I had first hand knowledge of dealing with. Last time I checked the name of this thread was in fact "The Chemical Closet" and the overall topic seemed to be about the legitimacy of this company.

Just because I choose not to post in depth details of my experience is not solid evidence that I am lying or attempting to lead people astray, or that The Chemical Closet is in fact a reputable and legitimate company that is simply selling controversial precursor chemicals.

If anyone doesn't believe me, tough. Instead of getting your panties in a knot, why not place an order for Sodium Chloride and see if you get your order? If you do, then I'll admit I was wrong.

It just seems odd to me that:

1) on my credit card bill it said their Paypal account was in AZ.
2) The IP address in their email was from Arizona.
3) The name their website is registered to is the name of a law enforcement officer in Arizona.
4) I live in Canada which has lax chemical laws compared to the U.S. and still didn't receive, not one, but three orders.
5) I had RCMP officers tell me that U.S. agents were putting pressure on them because of "chemicals" (which I'll admit could be caused by several different factors since I do a lot of buying and selling of various different chemicals in Canada and the U.S.)

organometallic - 26-3-2008 at 15:21

Is it me, or does anotheronebitestheduse behave similarly to banned member Quince?

woelen - 26-3-2008 at 15:26

It does not sound smart to me that you placed three orders at this company. If I try a new source for chemicals, then I usually place only one order for a relatively innocuous chemical and see what happens with the order.

In the past, I have had experience with another somewhat shady business, www.kno3.com. I just was curious and ordered a single roll of magnesium ribbon (they had a discount price of only GBP 2.50 for one roll). This was back in 2004, and the roll of Mg indeed arrived one week later without any problem. That has given me more thrust to buy another chemical from them (500 grams of NaClO4.H2O for an acceptable price of GBP 16).

The chemical closet, however, looks so shady to me, that I will never order anything. Their prices also are insane, really insane.

pantone159 - 26-3-2008 at 15:54

Quote:
Originally posted by organometallic
Is it me, or does anotheronebitestheduse behave similarly to banned member Quince?


I don't think anotherone is anywhere near as bad as Quince was. Publicly insulting joeflsts was over the line, but IIRC Quince was obnoxious on many more occasions.


[Edited on 26-3-2008 by pantone159]

joeflsts - 26-3-2008 at 16:59

Quote:
Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust
What chemicals I order and the details of said business transactions is nobody's business but my own. Nor are the in depth details.

The sole purpose of my posting in this thread was to inform and advise anyone interested of the legitimacy of a company called The Chemical Closet whom I had first hand knowledge of dealing with. Last time I checked the name of this thread was in fact "The Chemical Closet" and the overall topic seemed to be about the legitimacy of this company.

Just because I choose not to post in depth details of my experience is not solid evidence that I am lying or attempting to lead people astray, or that The Chemical Closet is in fact a reputable and legitimate company that is simply selling controversial precursor chemicals.

If anyone doesn't believe me, tough. Instead of getting your panties in a knot, why not place an order for Sodium Chloride and see if you get your order? If you do, then I'll admit I was wrong.

It just seems odd to me that:

1) on my credit card bill it said their Paypal account was in AZ.
2) The IP address in their email was from Arizona.
3) The name their website is registered to is the name of a law enforcement officer in Arizona.
4) I live in Canada which has lax chemical laws compared to the U.S. and still didn't receive, not one, but three orders.
5) I had RCMP officers tell me that U.S. agents were putting pressure on them because of "chemicals" (which I'll admit could be caused by several different factors since I do a lot of buying and selling of various different chemicals in Canada and the U.S.)


So post the email header. The registrar of their website is given above in my post. It is very easy to verify - go to ANY registration entity and look it up. You can start with www.register.com

I do not have a copy of your email so I will assume that the email you got was from a LEO in Arizona. Since you are willing to "warn" users on this forum of the potential risk I think you would be MORE than willing to share the header of the email to prove your point.

Joe

shadow - 26-3-2008 at 20:57

I forgot to check the list when I bought some sulphuric acid from some biodiesel guy in SE America, and spent a couple days sweating the purchase. Should I worry some more?
I saw that chemcloset website linked to ebay, and when I saw what they were selling, I said, "no way, especially across borders."
I've also been eyeballing some iodine on ebay for some tame procedures, but don't know if I should.
I hate this bs.
Does anyone know if Alfa Aesar is user friendly?




[Edited on 26-3-2008 by shadow]

[Edited on 26-3-2008 by shadow]

joeflsts - 27-3-2008 at 04:19

Quote:
Originally posted by shadow
I forgot to check the list when I bought some sulphuric acid from some biodiesel guy in SE America, and spent a couple days sweating the purchase. Should I worry some more?
I saw that chemcloset website linked to ebay, and when I saw what they were selling, I said, "no way, especially across borders."
I've also been eyeballing some iodine on ebay for some tame procedures, but don't know if I should.
I hate this bs.
Does anyone know if Alfa Aesar is user friendly?

I don't know why you would "sweat" the purchase of Sulfuric Acid. You can buy it in many places in any grade (technical, ACS, etc). If you buy a restricted item on Ebay you should expect to run the risk of being questioned.

Joe





[Edited on 26-3-2008 by shadow]

[Edited on 26-3-2008 by shadow]

anotheronebitesthedust - 27-3-2008 at 19:53

I've edited out certain parts of the email.


Quote:

Return-Path: <sales@thechemicalcloset.co.uk>
Received: from smtp7.hushmail.com (smtp7.hushmail.com [***.***.***.***])
by imap8.hushmail.com (Cyrus v2.2.12-Invoca-RPM-2.2.12-8.1.RHEL4) with LMTPA;
Mon, 25 Feb 2008 22:24:54 +0000
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
Received: from smtpoutwbe01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpoutwbe01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [208.109.78.112])
by smtp7.hushmail.com (Postfix) with SMTP
for <******>; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 22:24:26 +0000 (UTC)
Received: (qmail 10280 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2008 22:23:09 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO gem-wbe24.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net) (64.202.189.227)
by smtpoutwbe01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net with SMTP; 25 Feb 2008 22:23:08 -0000
Received: (qmail 17472 invoked by uid 99); 25 Feb 2008 22:23:08 -0000
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 15:23:08 -0700
From: sales@thechemicalcloset.co.uk
Subject: RE: The Chemical Closet - Order Confirmation for order #**********
To: ******
Message-ID: <20080225152308.108ea902d7053ac5fce469b3ee523d4b.23ad4152bf.wbe@email.secureserver.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/html; CHARSET=US-ASCII
User-Agent: Web-Based Email 4.12.23
X-Originating-IP: 148.167.148.100

<html><body><div>Mr. ***</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Tracking numbers are not provided as they are not valid outside Royal Mail terrain.&nbsp; We appreciate the desire of our clientele to remain discreet and therefore do not post tracking outside UK.&nbsp; Please contact Customer Service for further information if your parcel has not been received within a month of order placement, until then, we ask you limit correspondence.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Regards</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Sales Department</div>
<div>TCC<BR><BR></div>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 8px; MARGIN-LEFT: 8px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid" webmail="1">-------- Original Message --------<BR>Subject: Re: The Chemical Closet - Order Confirmation for order<BR>#**********<BR>From: &lt;******&gt;<BR>Date: Sun, February 24, 2008 6:24 pm<BR>To: "The Chemical Closet"&lt;sales@thechemicalcloset.co.uk&gt;<BR><BR>Can I get a tracking number for this order?<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>***<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:21:15 -0800 The Chemical Closet <BR>&lt;<a onclick="Popup.composeWindow('pcompose.php?sendto=sales%40thechemicalcloset.co.uk'); return false;" href="http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&amp;type=reply&amp;folder=INBOX&amp;uid=1303#Compose">sales<B></B& gt;@thechemicalcloset.co.uk</A>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;Hi ***,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;This email is confirming your order with The Chemical Closet.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;The Chemical Closet - Order # **********<BR>&gt;----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Date of order: 2008-02-20 23:20:04<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Order Summary:<BR>&gt;----------------------------------<BR>&gt;Total number of items ordered: 1<BR>&gt;Product total: 86.13<BR>&gt;Shipping total: 9.78<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Grand Total: 95.91<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Item breakdown:<BR>&gt;----------------<BR>&gt;(1) Red Phosphorus, Amorphous (500 grams)(Buy 500g get 100 free) <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Billing Address:<BR>&gt;--------------------------------<BR>&gt;****** <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;****** <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;********* <BR>&gt;Canada<BR>&gt;Email Address: <A onclick="Popup.composeWindow('pcompose.php?sendto=******); return false;" href="http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&amp;type=reply&amp;folder=INBOX&amp;uid=1303#Compose">******<B></B >@***</A><BR>&gt;Phone: ******<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Shipping Address<BR>&gt;--------------------------------<BR>&gt; ******<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;*** <BR>&gt;****** <BR>&gt;********* <BR>&gt;***<BR>&gt;Email Address: <A onclick="Popup.composeWindow('pcompose.php?sendto=******); return false;" href="http://email.secureserver.net/pcompose.php?aEmlPart=0&amp;type=reply&amp;folder=INBOX&amp;uid=1303#Compose">***<B></B> ;@***</A><BR>&gt;Phone: ******<BR>&gt;Special Instructions: <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Shipping Breakdown:<BR>&gt;-----------------------------------------------<BR>&gt; Ship using: Royal Mail - Airsure&#***;<BR>&gt; Cost: &#***;9.78<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Payment Info<BR>&gt;--------------------------------<BR>&gt;Payment method:PayPal<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;For your security, here is some information about the computer <BR>&gt;that placed this order:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;IP Address: ***.***.***.***<BR>&gt;Host Name: ***.***.***.***<BR>&gt;User Agent: *********; <BR>&gt;.net clr ******)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Thanks again,<BR>&gt;Customer Service<BR>&gt;The Chemical Closet<BR><BR>--<BR>Click here to find great deals on vending machines.<BR><A href="http://tagline.hushmail.com/fc/Ioyw6h4fHtLu3HfObJVFbix29HAOG6du8t7yQ3mPNmKLf9jszC95ZB/" target=_blank>http://tagline.hushmail.com/fc/Ioyw6h4fHtLu3HfObJVFbix29HAOG6du8t7yQ3mPNmKLf9jszC95ZB/</a><BR>&gt;<a href="http://www.thechemicalcloset.co.uk/" target=_blank>http://www.thechemicalcloset.co.uk</a><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></body></html>

MagicJigPipe - 27-3-2008 at 20:04

I'm not sure about Canada but in the US, when your package is seized by customs, they send you a letter in the mail telling you why.

Did you get a letter?

This happened to me when I tried to order some tobacco seeds from Canada. Back then, "propogative seeds" were not allowed to be shipped into the United States.

Thanks for posting the email, anotheronebitesthedust.

undead_alchemist - 27-3-2008 at 20:54

The packages could have been seized by Canada Customs.
Also Canada Post will only ship chemicals within the country via ground services, and only from business accounts cleared by the Post Office.

Also looking at the email. RP was ordered. and that is also a Class A / List 1 chemical here in Canada

[Edited on 28-3-2008 by undead_alchemist]

joeflsts - 28-3-2008 at 03:58

anotheronebitesthedust,

I think you're a LEO but I could be wrong.

Joe

[Edited on 28-3-2008 by joeflsts]

PETERCPA - 28-3-2008 at 15:44

Quote:
Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust
Hey whaddya know. The IP in the email from Chemical Closet is based in Arizona.
148.167.148.100
Quote:
OrgName: City of Phoenix
OrgID: CITYOF-78
Address: 251 W Washington
City: Phoenix
StateProv: AZ
PostalCode: 85003
Country: US

NetRange: 148.167.0.0 - 148.167.255.255
CIDR: 148.167.0.0/16
NetName: PHXGOV
NetHandle: NET-148-167-0-0-1
Parent: NET-148-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
NameServer: COPNS1.CI.PHOENIX.AZ.US
NameServer: COPNS2.CI.PHOENIX.AZ.US
NameServer: NS1.DURU.NET
NameServer: NS2.DURU.NET
Comment:
RegDate: 1991-05-09
Updated: 2008-01-10

RAbuseHandle: ITDPH-ARIN
RAbuseName: ITD PhxWeb
RAbusePhone: +1-602-256-3527
RAbuseEmail: mailbox.ecam@phoenix.gov

RNOCHandle: ITDPH-ARIN
RNOCName: ITD PhxWeb
RNOCPhone: +1-602-256-3527
RNOCEmail: mailbox.ecam@phoenix.gov

RTechHandle: ITDPH-ARIN
RTechName: ITD PhxWeb
RTechPhone: +1-602-256-3527
RTechEmail: mailbox.ecam@phoenix.gov

OrgTechHandle: DP1317-ARIN
OrgTechName: Pristavec, David
OrgTechPhone: +1-602-256-3484
OrgTechEmail: dpristav@ci.phoenix.az.us

MagicJigPipe - 28-3-2008 at 17:00

What the hell? What makes you think he's an LEO? By the way, I'm almost 100% sure that LEOs typically browse through chemistry forums (WetDreams mostly). I read it in a Microgram Journal entry.

undead_alchemist - 28-3-2008 at 19:07

Quote:

Return-Path:
Received: from smtp7.hushmail.com (smtp7.hushmail.com [***.***.***.***])
by imap8.hushmail.com (Cyrus v2.2.12-Invoca-RPM-2.2.12-8.1.RHEL4) with LMTPA;
Mon, 25 Feb 2008 22:24:54 +0000
X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2
Received: from smtpoutwbe01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpoutwbe01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [208.109.78.112])
by smtp7.hushmail.com (Postfix) with SMTP
for <******>; Mon, 25 Feb 2008 22:24:26 +0000 (UTC)
Received: (qmail 10280 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2008 22:23:09 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO gem-wbe24.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net) (64.202.189.227)
by smtpoutwbe01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net with SMTP; 25 Feb 2008 22:23:08 -0000
Received: (qmail 17472 invoked by uid 99); 25 Feb 2008 22:23:08 -0000
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 15:23:08 -0700
From: sales@thechemicalcloset.co.uk
Subject: RE: The Chemical Closet - Order Confirmation for order #**********
To: ******
Message-ID: <20080225152308.108ea902d7053ac5fce469b3ee523d4b.23ad4152bf.wbe@email.secureserver.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/html; CHARSET=US-ASCII
User-Agent: Web-Based Email 4.12.23
X-Originating-IP: 148.167.148.100


The X-Originating-IP: 148.167.148.100 is what anotheronebitesthedust is referring to.

Bakersfield Chemistry Teacher

chemnut - 29-3-2008 at 18:51

Quote:
Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
What the hell? What makes you think he's an LEO? By the way, I'm almost 100% sure that LEOs typically browse through chemistry forums (WetDreams mostly). I read it in a Microgram Journal entry.


Thechemicalcloset is the result of years of work by detective Tracy McBride. Yes, it is operated by a law enforcement group from Maricopa County, AZ.

Here is a story regarding one of the fools who stepped into this spiderweb:
http://www.bakersfield.com/hourly_news/story/353300.html

in particular, read the PDF police report which is linked within webpage. one will find that thechemicalcloset provided the entrapping transaction.

dream safely friends
peace

[Edited on 30-3-2008 by vulture]

microcosmicus - 29-3-2008 at 20:01

Is this a chemistry forum or a character assasination forum? And what
is supposed to be so scandalous about somebody trying to figure out
how to wire up a camera?

MagicJigPipe - 29-3-2008 at 20:23

What exactly are you trying to accomplish, chemnut?

I pissed off some people over at WD because I wouldn't stop bitching about the posting styles so apparently, they are trying to libel me in an attempt to... well, I'm not sure exactly but obviously they are being extremely childish.

I agree with microcosmicus. What was with posting about my camera problem?

EDIT
Oh yeah, by the way, "watchthis":
https://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9796&...

And what's so foolish about using the same name? Am I hiding from someone?

[Edited on 30-3-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

MagicJigPipe - 30-3-2008 at 01:02

"Search warrants served Nov. 29 at Shafter High and Scheidemantel’s home in the 11400 block of Marazion Hill Court in Bakersfield turned up guns, meth ingredients and recipes for making the drug, the reports said. When asked by detectives why he had chemicals in his house and classroom that are used to make meth, Scheidemantel said the chemicals were for class purposes only.

“That’s what I do,” Scheidemantel was quoted as saying in the reports. “I am a chemistry teacher, and all those things are there, but they’re for labs.”

The investigation into Scheidemantel began when local and federal authorities were alerted that he went online to buy red phosphorous, a key ingredient for making meth. Scheidemantel told detectives the day his house was searched that he wanted the red phosphorous so he could teach his students how to make matchsticks.

Detectives told him that red phosphorous is toxic and highly flammable and asked if he thought that was an appropriate substance to expose students to.

“I guess I didn’t think of that,” Scheidemantel said, according to the reports."

What do you suppose the "ingredients" to make meth were? Red phosphorus and normal chemicals? It really seems like this guy might really have been into home chemistry.

RP is one of the least toxic substances IMO. What a bunch of crap. I mean, paint thinner is "toxic and flammable"! What the hell? Kids can only mess with chemicals less toxic and flammable than RP nowadays? That doesn't leave much. And you see how they made him defend himself buy saying "I guess I didn't think of that". He knows damn well they're full of shit but he still said that instead of saying "that's bullshit!".

[Edited on 30-3-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

Sauron - 30-3-2008 at 01:44

Red P is relatively non toxic if and only if it is completely free from white P. This is not always the case. But I agree that characterizing red P as "toxic" prior to making any determination of its purity, is uncalled for.

Moral of this tale is: if you are going to put your neck in a noose by ordering red P from some online sting operation, don't have information on meth cookery around too.

I would not be so swift to decide this fellow is so innocent. Maybe he's been watching that stupid IV series and decided to get rich quick.

The matchstick story is pretty lame. Couldn't he think of a better pedagogical use?

And Officer Hazmat ought to be reminded that safety matches sold in every grocery and supermarket, yea even in Bakerfield, have striker strips chock full of red P.

"But what about the children?"

[Edited on 30-3-2008 by Sauron]

MagicJigPipe - 30-3-2008 at 07:03

"The matchstick story is pretty lame. Couldn't he think of a better pedagogical use?"

I noticed that as well. What a dufus. He's either not a very good liar, not very knowledgable or both. I wonder if it makes a difference if, in addition to, illicit drug print-out information, one has information on legal drugs and various other aspects of chemistry.

I know I have information on some "illicit" substances buried around here somewhere. I suppose I should locate that information and destroy it since, apparently, that along with having NaOH, hydrochloric acid, acetone and friends indicates guilt of conspiracy to manufacture methamphetamine or other drugs.

The sources I have are legitimate articles but damn... There goes freedom of information + common chemicals. See, I know that not having pseudoephedrine saved my ass when I was searched and accused of making meth a few years ago (also, possibly the fact I didn't have "recipes", either). I suppose it's time to clear out my medicine cabinet as well. I know I have some allegra-D samples around here somewhere.

It's sad that I have to do stuff like that.

[Edited on 30-3-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

Sauron - 30-3-2008 at 19:19

I once heard a Texas Ranger accuse someone of making "crystal methane"

I remember thinking, this guy needs some remedial narc classes.

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