Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Sourcing Ethyl Acetate?

Sourcing Ethyl Acetate?

hq02v - 12-11-2018 at 11:17

Hello, I am looking for advice on sourcing Ethyl Acetate.

It seems Lowe's/HomeDepot no longer stock 1gal cans of "M.E.K substitute"(Ethyl Acetate)
And local hardware stores, if any only have a quart or two left from "M.E.K substitute" from before it was discontinued.

Also the Non-Acetone nail polish removers now often do not contain Ethyl Acetate like before, and if I manage to find a MSDS for a brand that contains Ethyl Acetate(60℅+) the retailer requires a Nail Salon registration or cosmetic student I.D to purchase.

Does anyone have any suggestions? The prices per liter via ebay/Amazon and etc are ridiculous for something that use to be available by the gallon at Lowe's/HomdDepot

fusso - 12-11-2018 at 14:43

Quote: Originally posted by hq02v

Also the Non-Acetone nail polish removers now often do not contain Ethyl Acetate like before, and if I manage to find a MSDS for a brand that contains Ethyl Acetate(60℅+) the retailer requires a Nail Salon registration or cosmetic student I.D to purchase.

I always find bans/restrictions concerning common solvents like this ridiculous. I just wanna sneer those lawmakers and these idiotic laws

PS me not american, can't help sry

Mr. Rogers - 12-11-2018 at 15:42

Ethyl acetate isn't banned or restricted. They change the formulations of OTC products from time to time as safety standards change.

Dr.Bob - 12-11-2018 at 17:44

Where are you located? Sometimes there are good sources, but they are highly localized. There is at least one place in NC that I think still sells it, but might not help in other states. Someone near OK was talking about a place there that sells damaged freight that might have had some.

AvBaeyer - 12-11-2018 at 21:05

Easily found on ebay or amazon. I get mine from Sierra Chemicals via ebay. It is of very high quality.

AvB

Funkerman23 - 12-11-2018 at 22:27

Since when is Ethyl acetate on the watched list? Did I miss something? I'll do a check at my local stor tomorow and see whats available. Ever since I started my Undergrad, I feel like I fell off the face of the earth , here.

Mr. Rogers - 12-11-2018 at 23:09

Quote: Originally posted by Funkerman23

Since when is Ethyl acetate on the watched list?

It's not. A brand of M.E.K. substitute changed their formula. That's all.

hq02v - 13-11-2018 at 07:55

Quote: Originally posted by AvBaeyer

Easily found on ebay or amazon. I get mine from Sierra Chemicals via ebay. It is of very high quality.

AvB

Yes, I am aware of SierraChemicals on eBay and they're reputable quality but $40 for 1L is atrocious when it was available 3.7L for ~$20.

Mr. Rogers - 13-11-2018 at 08:11

Quote: Originally posted by hq02v

Quote: Originally posted by AvBaeyer

Easily found on ebay or amazon. I get mine from Sierra Chemicals via ebay. It is of very high quality.

AvB

Yes, I am aware of SierraChemicals on eBay and they're reputable quality but $40 for 1L is atrocious when it was available 3.7L for ~$20.

What you're getting from the hardware store is the same thing you're getting from a chem supplier?

hq02v - 13-11-2018 at 08:45

Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Rogers

Quote: Originally posted by hq02v

Quote: Originally posted by AvBaeyer

Easily found on ebay or amazon. I get mine from Sierra Chemicals via ebay. It is of very high quality.

AvB

Yes, I am aware of SierraChemicals on eBay and they're reputable quality but $40 for 1L is atrocious when it was available 3.7L for ~$20.

What you're getting from the hardware store is the same thing you're getting from a chem supplier?

Absolutely not, but tech grade vs lab grade is not a difference to justify a ~770% mark-up in price.

Melgar - 13-11-2018 at 10:05

Just a public service announcement: You really should use the "Location" field in your profile. If you're in the US, put your state, at least. In other countries, put your province, region, or country. Whichever is responsible for your local laws. Otherwise, if you show up and ask where to buy something OTC, we have no idea what stores you have access to or what the local laws/restrictions are. I don't know why some people seem to think that posting their state or country is doxxing themselves. You have an entire state/country's worth of other people to hide among.

Incidentally, when you buy highly-flammable solvents online, most of the price you're paying is for hazmat shipping. You can also improve tech-grade solvents by a grade or two just by distilling from silica gel or something similar.

beerwiz - 13-11-2018 at 22:08

Go to a beauty supply store and get the non-acetone nail polish remover. It should contain coloring, ethyl acetate, and a little bit of methanol. Distill the ethyl acetate. Then to a water wash to remove the methano, then do a brine wash to remove any traces of water. If you need it really dry, dry it with anhydrous potassium carbonate or molecular sieves 4A. A gallon costs about $30.

artemov - 16-11-2018 at 03:30

I found a cheap source of ethyl acetate in nail polish remover ... the ingredients are ethyl acetate, aqua, alcohol, ..., glycerol, triethanolamine, ...

So if I do a simple distillation at 70-80 C, I would expect a distillate mixture of ethyl acetate, alcohol and water right?
Would I expect the ethyl acetate to separate out into a separate layer even before the water/brine wash?
Strangely I dun see any separation in the orginal nail polish mixture even though there's significant water.

CouchHatter - 17-11-2018 at 13:17

Just got a quart of Klean Strip MEK substitute at Home Depot for $10. Could not see it listed on their website; zero indication they carry it after extensive searching. Sitting right there with the other solvents, though. I wouldn't write it off until you've visited a few branches of Lowe's and Home Depot. The Klean Strip website is semi-helpful .

Beauty websites don't show what's available In the store. My local supplier says on the door "NOT OPEN TO THE PUBLIC". I got a gallon of non-acetone polish remover for $20, but it has MEK and ethyl acetate whose difference in BP are 2.54 °C. Not very worthwhile

[Edited on 18-11-2018 by CouchHatter]

beerwiz - 18-11-2018 at 22:52

Quote: Originally posted by artemov

I found a cheap source of ethyl acetate in nail polish remover ... the ingredients are ethyl acetate, aqua, alcohol, ..., glycerol, triethanolamine, ...

So if I do a simple distillation at 70-80 C, I would expect a distillate mixture of ethyl acetate, alcohol and water right?
Would I expect the ethyl acetate to separate out into a separate layer even before the water/brine wash?
Strangely I dun see any separation in the orginal nail polish mixture even though there's significant water.

The non-acetone nail polish remover at my local beauty supply store has only ethyl acetate, methanol, and coloring. Look at your label.

What I do is distill off the ethyl acetate, ethyl acetate and methanol will distill over. Then do 3 water washes. Then do a BRINE wash (this is saturated kosher salt (pure salt) water solution, it will absorb almost all the water out of the ethyl acetate. That's it, now you have pure ethyl acetate that you can dry further with molecular sieves 4A or anhydrous potassium carbonate or anhydrous epsom salt, then filter it off and store.

You don't see any separation in your original solution because ethyl acetate can dissolve up to 8% water.

[Edited on 19-11-2018 by beerwiz]

artemov - 21-11-2018 at 04:55

Quote: Originally posted by beerwiz

I took a picture of the ingredients label, but I dunno how to attach pic ... but the ingredients are indeed ethyl acetate, (water)aqua, alcohol, glycerine, triethanolamine, tocopheryl acetate, blue 1, red 33

Water is second most abundant here ... would the glycerine serves as some kind of "emulsfier" to prevent the ethyl acetate and water from separating?

beerwiz - 21-11-2018 at 21:00

Most of your water will be removed during the brine wash, then you can dry it to 100% with the sieves or the epsom salt or K carbonate.

I wouldn't worry about the glycerine, it's boiling point is 290C, it will just remain in the boiling flask.

ninhydric1 - 21-11-2018 at 21:09

Be careful, ethanol and ethyl acetate form an azeotrope that boils at 71.85 deg C, 69.2% EtOAc by weight. I highly recommend do a few water washings before you actually distill so you don't have to perform multiple distillations; just distill all of the ethyl acetate at once.

artemov - 22-11-2018 at 02:44

Quote: Originally posted by ninhydric1

Be careful, ethanol and ethyl acetate form an azeotrope that boils at 71.85 deg C, 69.2% EtOAc by weight. I highly recommend do a few water washings before you actually distill so you don't have to perform multiple distillations; just distill all of the ethyl acetate at once.

What's the aim of doing water washings before distillation? I thought AcOEt, EtOH and water form a ternary azeotrope.

SuperOxide - 23-5-2021 at 11:06

Hope I don't get any flack for reviving an old thread, but I have a tin can of the Klean Strip MEK substitute which is supposedly pure ethyl acetate, but I always am a bit skeptical when it comes to the purity of chemicals from sources like this (eg: I had to process the toluene to get the methylthiophene out of it so it wouldn't show up later and possibly tar or yellow up the reactions).

I get that for many of the use cases of ethyl acetate, whatever is in there is unlikely to impact the chemistry (especially since it's probably just going to be used as a solvent). But removing any other substituents just removes any variables in case something goes wrong. Also... I like to make the reagents/solvents I use as pure as I can, both for the purposes of having pure-ish chemicals and it's just a good exercise to learn.

Now even though the MSDS states that it's 100% Acetic acid, ethyl ester {Ethyl acetate}, from what I gather, sometimes they contain a bit of MeOH and/or EtOH. And if that's the case, I would like to remove it and make it as pure as I can.

So from the suggestions in this thread, it seems the best way to purify it is to:

Washing with distilled water to get out any of the water soluble substituents. Separate out the water layer.
Brine wash to get any residual water out.
Dry it further with some drying agent, probably magnesium sulfate (This may make the brine wash step unnecessary).
Distill.

Does this seem like the proper process? Or does anyone have any other suggestions?

Also, is there a good way to determine the purity? I don't think the boiling point is the best because it can still distill over (from what I gather, the boiling point wouldn't change much). So perhaps TLC? Though that would be a bit overkill, but maybe if I get some TLC plates in the future, this would be a great way to practice running TLC analysis.

Thanks in advance..

[Edited on 23-5-2021 by SuperOxide]

[Edited on 23-5-2021 by SuperOxide]

karlos³ - 23-5-2021 at 12:13

No thats ok like this, but in case of EtOAc you will want to do the brine wash definitely before you dry it.
Ethyl acetate can suck up quite a bit of water and that makes the brine wash really neccessary for a good dry final product.

Actually I would almost never skip the brine wash in case of an aqueous extraction, it pulls so much water out of the solvent before and that makes it so useful.
With just drying agent you would require so much and if theres product in there, then the drying agent will suck some up too, etc...
Its only superfluous in cases of alkanes or aromatics, but for everything else it does wonders.

SuperOxide - 23-5-2021 at 12:47

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

No thats ok like this, but in case of EtOAc you will want to do the brine wash definitely before you dry it.
Ethyl acetate can suck up quite a bit of water and that makes the brine wash really neccessary for a good dry final product.

Actually I would almost never skip the brine wash in case of an aqueous extraction, it pulls so much water out of the solvent before and that makes it so useful.
With just drying agent you would require so much and if theres product in there, then the drying agent will suck some up too, etc...
Its only superfluous in cases of alkanes or aromatics, but for everything else it does wonders.

Ok, so the brine wash isn't as optional as I thought - Good to know. Thanks karlos³!

Amos - 24-5-2021 at 05:05

Quote: Originally posted by CouchHatter

Just got a quart of Klean Strip MEK substitute at Home Depot for $10. Could not see it listed on their website; zero indication they carry it after extensive searching. Sitting right there with the other solvents, though. I wouldn't write it off until you've visited a few branches of Lowe's and Home Depot.

This has been my experience too, there are even extra cans up top in the stocking shelves, so I don't think they'll run out any time soon. If anyone in the thread still can't find this product, the major US hardware stores are often stocking "Green" Denatured Alcohol, in which the only denaturant of the ethanol is a large proportion of ethyl acetate. While these two are difficult to separate by traditional means, repeated brine washing or some washing followed by distillation may work. The product straight out of the can is also a much more cost-effective starting material for preparing your own ethyl acetate via esterification with cheap glacial acetic acid. Hope some of this helps.

karlos³ - 24-5-2021 at 05:12

But if you have ethanol denatured with ethyl acetate, you can simply add base and distill the ethanol off from the formed acetate salt?
Ethyl acetate is in general actually a pretty good source for pretty low water containing undenatured ethanol.

SuperOxide - 24-5-2021 at 09:05

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

But if you have ethanol denatured with ethyl acetate, you can simply add base and distill the ethanol off from the formed acetate salt?

Wouldn't adding the base hydrolyse the ethyl acetate to form ethanol? (Got that idea from a Dougs Lab video)

karlos³ - 24-5-2021 at 09:30

Yes, thats good if you have just a little bit EtOAc as denaturant, as you can easily turn the denaturant into more ethanol.

Amos - 25-5-2021 at 05:50

Actually weirdly enough that formulation has changed, it used to be 30-40% ethyl acetate, and now it's about 1.5% with 5% methanol added. Unless I was thinking of a different product. I used to work at a Lowe's so I was reading those MSDSs all day.

SuperOxide - 25-5-2021 at 08:32

Quote: Originally posted by Amos

Actually weirdly enough that formulation has changed, it used to be 30-40% ethyl acetate, and now it's about 1.5% with 5% methanol added. Unless I was thinking of a different product. I used to work at a Lowe's so I was reading those MSDSs all day.

Hmm, looking over the Klean Strip Green Denatured Alcohol MSDS, I can see what you mean. In the Ethanol and the Hydrolysis of Ethyl Acetate video on Dougs Lab, he lists the ethyl acetate at 1.5%. I wonder if going through the trouble of hydrolysing it to ethanol is even worth it?
Is there some benefit to doing it other than increasing the yield a percent or two? Is it because ethyl acetate is much harder to separate from the ethanol?

karlos³ - 25-5-2021 at 08:42

Well for many reactions where the ethanol is not only a solvent, you want the ethyl acetate gone.
They are hard to separate via distillation, requiring a lengthy column and even then its quite a hassle.
I would never even attempt it, simply hydrolyse and voilá.

SuperOxide - 25-5-2021 at 11:27

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

Well for many reactions where the ethanol is not only a solvent, you want the ethyl acetate gone.
They are hard to separate via distillation, requiring a lengthy column and even then its quite a hassle.
I would never even attempt it, simply hydrolyse and voilá.

I see, so it's not so much about increasing the yield as it is about increasing the purity of the EtOH. Got it.

LabDIRECT - 26-5-2021 at 01:51

We dont have it up on the site yet I don't think but we carry it - I believe we have it priced at 500ml for 29.99 or a gallon for 74.99 for ACS/USP/HPLC grade, but let me double check. Feel free to send us an email at support at labdirectllc.com and we can help you out.

Hoffit - 26-5-2021 at 07:37

I stripped my ethyl acetate for a paint thinner. It used to be available as nail polish remover but now all the removers I find locally are acetone or some oil formulas.

It took a couple tries because one thinner had a lot of other impurities in it and made it difficult to separate (range of boiling like with petroleum ether). Another brand was just fine, although half of it came out as an azeotrope of ethanol (based on boiling point). Ethanol azeotrope is usefull to me for lot of uses too.

Locally there are quite a few pure solvents available, mostly acetone, xylenes and denatured ethanol. Paint thinner mixes are a good source for lots of other stuff.

Dr.Bob - 26-5-2021 at 11:28

Good luck, I cannot even get ethyl acetate at work, there seems to be a big shortage lately. When Fisher and Aldrich are out, that is a bad sign...

SuperOxide - 26-5-2021 at 14:28

Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob

Good luck, I cannot even get ethyl acetate at work, there seems to be a big shortage lately. When Fisher and Aldrich are out, that is a bad sign...

Holy crap, you're right. I just looked on the Home Depot site and Walmart, both of which have carried them (I got mine from Home Depot, luckily I haven't used it), and neither have them in stock at any store by me. It looks like Ace Hardware does, though.

Very odd.