Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Short question / quick answer - Thread

Short question / quick answer - Thread

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PHILOU Zrealone - 31-3-2016 at 05:23

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Hi, I have question: Will be it worked ?
4 KMnO4 + 3 NaClO2 + 2 H2O = 4 MnO2 + 3 NaClO4 + 4 KOH
Or it is nonsense? NaClO2 is free as pool chemicals. Usually 25% in H2O. KMnO4 is free. MnO2 is possible decantation, KOH will be possible separe via different solubility. Target is NaClO4 of course. Thanks, ...LL... :cool:

source: http://www.webqc.org/balance.php?reaction=KMNO4+%2B+NACLO2+%...

Seems too good to be true...if it was true then KMnO4 would change NaCl directly into NaClO4.
Usually KMnO4 or NaClO2 reveal their oxydoredox potentials in acidic or in basic media...and usually a strongly basic component is not produced (in the products of reactions).

From experience, oxydoredox exercises are just made to use/practice the chem theory of oxydoredox and equilibration thus not always taking in account the validity/reality of such reactions...

NaClO4

Laboratory of Liptakov - 31-3-2016 at 07:17

Thanks, Philou. I have a same opinion. Much easy and maybe good only in school. Only one a way for truth. Try it.
.....LL.... :cool:

NeonPulse - 31-3-2016 at 18:36

I was wondering if anybody knows of a Tetryl synthesis that requires 70% nitric rather than the80% specified? Can you just adjust the weight needed of nitric or will the excess water interfere? Or even if tetryl can be made using a nitrate salt in lieu of acid. I have a small amount of dimethyl aniline and don't really want to waste anymore on botched synthesis.

Dornier 335A - 31-3-2016 at 22:52

It should work according to Urbanski.

PHILOU Zrealone - 1-4-2016 at 09:17

Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A

It should work according to Urbanski.

Nice,
I will just add that spg 1.40 HNO3 is 67% so with 69%-70% the exces must be slighly less --> 35-36 fold instead of 40.

Camroc37 - 13-4-2016 at 20:33

Can someone help me understand how to apply plasticizers and binders successfully depending on the energetic compound used?
Examples: PETN (Can the mix below work similarly?)
ETN+EGDN+NC (this will work, right?)
This is a new area for me, so I'm not sure if there is a special ratio or if it is just a sort of mix-until-putty deal. Thanks.

NeonPulse - 16-4-2016 at 04:48

The ETN , EGDN-NC mix is not really a plastic mixture in the sense of the word but basically a blasting gelatin with ETN added. I remember an old user here Ral123 made this and I recall him saying it handles poorly and is volitile due to EGDN and has a limited shelf life. I had also tried this combination but with NG once and found that once the ETN was added it dried it up making a cohesive homogenous mixture impossible to achieve.
Real plastique a however can last a very long time if the energetic material used is sufficiently pure. There is no set rule on amounts of plasticisers/ binders to use but typically 9% for C4 and upto a huge 30% had been reported for low grade knockoff Semtex. This would be barely able to fire properly and was probably on the threshold of usefulness, more like playdoh....

I usually try for 11-12% for high density in a well held together mixture that is still malleable without crumbling but this does require a lot of work and quite some practice to get it right. This also depends on what materials you will be using though.

2-EHN

Laboratory of Liptakov - 19-4-2016 at 08:52

Has somebody experience with fuel 2-ethylhexyl nitrate? (2-EHN diesel booster) in mix with any oxidizer? As explosive material, of course. Is available on Ebay. Slightly expensive, but has universal using. OB = - 196. Thanks,.. :cool:

...LL

a nitrogen rich explosive - 19-4-2016 at 10:16

60:40 tetranitromethane:2-ethylhexyl nitrate will create an extremely powerful and very sensitive liquid binary explosive... TNM + miscible fuel is generally considered bad news.

PHILOU Zrealone - 20-4-2016 at 04:06

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

60:40 tetranitromethane:2-ethylhexyl nitrate will create an extremely powerful and very sensitive liquid binary explosive... TNM + miscible fuel is generally considered bad news.

Owing to the large alcanic counterpart, the density of 2-EHN will be low and so detonic performances aswel...
Better work with denser fuels of the aromatic type...
Hexamethylolbenzene hexanitrate (C6(-CH2ONO2)6)/ TNM (or HNE) would be a much better choice...

PHILOU Zrealone - 20-4-2016 at 04:11

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Has somebody experience with fuel 2-ethylhexyl nitrate? (2-EHN diesel booster) in mix with any oxidizer? As explosive material, of course. Is available on Ebay. Slightly expensive, but has universal using. OB = - 196. Thanks,.. :cool:

...LL

Isopropyl nitrate or Ethyl nitrate would be denser and more explosive (better OB)...the density of 2-EHN will be low (0.9-1.0) and its hydrogen content will depress detonic performances...better get an unsaturated system with double bonds or triple bonds (or aromatic) to increase density and energy output per volume.

a nitrogen rich explosive - 20-4-2016 at 04:40

Purification of nitromethane

Does anyone know how to purify nitromethane from oil and additives? Laws in my country restrict nitromethane above the ratio of 1:3 nitromethane:fuel, and I have 1 litre of 25% NM. Any ideas?

PHILOU Zrealone - 20-4-2016 at 05:02

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

Purification of nitromethane

Does anyone know how to purify nitromethane from oil and additives? Laws in my country restrict nitromethane above the ratio of 1:3 nitromethane:fuel, and I have 1 litre of 25% NM. Any ideas?

Depends on the fuels...
Evapo-condensation/distillation (<105°C) will take all volatiles (alcools (methyl, ethyl, isopropyl), water, aceton, ... and NM) the remainder will be heavy oils or less volatile compounds.
Then if needed water dilution to take all alcools, aceton away the unsoluble oïl should be NM.

A simple carreful distillation at 95-105°C should get you nearly pure NM.

DrEvil - 20-4-2016 at 23:30

Dont know if posted before, tryd to search but did not find the awnser..

I mixed kclo3/xylene ones and left it a closed zipper bag and left for 1 and a half days and worked great when i used it.

Made the same agein with same ratio and left for maybe 30min and it dident go off..

Is it possible that it needs to sit for a while and soak for a day to work properly?
And is it like this with an Also? Couse same happend with my an/xylene mix when left for about 30min before trying to detonere it.

[Edited on 09-09-2015 by DrEvil]

a nitrogen rich explosive - 21-4-2016 at 01:52

It is certain. Surely, by common sense it must be? If it detonates after one day soaking and not after half an hour, it needs to soak.

Scientific technique?

And, just so you know, 66:25:9 NaClO3:DEG:water/xanthan gum is a plastic explosive. Thanks Liptakov. I think that it might also work with ethylene diamide (PLX-100)

By the way, do YOU think that NaClO3 would work better than KClO3, and if so why?
[Edited on 21-4-2016 by a nitrogen rich explosive]

[Edited on 21-4-2016 by a nitrogen rich explosive]

DrEvil - 21-4-2016 at 04:59

Well yes but i was just asking sence i am new to this.

a nitrogen rich explosive - 21-4-2016 at 07:40

That's fine.
By the way, make sure that all your chemical equations are properly capitalised: naclo3, NaClO3 and NACLO3 mean very different things.

In short, use sodium chlorate instead of potassium chlorate, as sodium chlorate is highly hygroscopic and will absorb the fuel quicker than KClO3. Instead of xylene, use diethylene glycol or ethylene diamide.

Are you sure you're ready for this?

[Edited on 21-4-2016 by a nitrogen rich explosive]

PHILOU Zrealone - 21-4-2016 at 09:18

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

That's fine.
By the way, make sure that all your chemical equations are properly capitalised: naclo3, NaClO3 and NACLO3 mean very different things.

In short, use sodium chlorate instead of potassium chlorate, as sodium chlorate is highly hygroscopic and will absorb the fuel quicker than KClO3. Instead of xylene, use diethylene glycol or ethylene diamide.

Are you sure you're ready for this?

If your fuel is hydrophilic, yes (NaClO3) otherwise it depends but in general no (--> KClO3)!

What is the ethylene diamide (PLX-100) you spoke about?
Do you have a chemical formula for it?

a nitrogen rich explosive - 21-4-2016 at 12:05

Sorry for the typo: autocorrect is a bitch. I meant ethylenediamine.

PLX-100 is a liquid explosive comprised of 95% nitromethane and 5% ethylenediamine. VoD is around 6300 m/s. I don't have very much experience with it (I don't like liquid explosives.) It looks pretty brisant, although I don't have any specific tests to cite.

My other speculation was a plastic explosive alike to LL's plastics, using ED as fuel.

Bert - 22-4-2016 at 13:39

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

...LL

I recall an explosive patent for mixtures using various mixture of 2-ethylhexyl nitrate, ammonium perchlorate and azodicarbonamide (a blowing agent for plastics, occasionally used as a leavening agent in bread!), occasionally with auxiliary metallic fuels, sometimes with other oxidizers.

Some quite high velocities were claimed, I recall. Discussion was on the old roguesci.org explosives & weapons forum- I have not yet run down the patent number, but here is the meat:

Quote:

What is claimed is:

1. A multi-component explosive composition comprising a mixture of a first fuel comprising 2-ethylhexyl nitrate, a granular solid oxidizer, and an additive capable of lowering the sensitivity of the explosive consisting essentially of azodicarbonamide, said mixture forming a detonable explosive.

2. An explosive composition comprising 2-ethylhexyl nitrate in an amount of 9.65% by weight, aluminum in an amount of 9.65% by weight and ammonium perchlorate in an amount of 80.70% by weight.

3. An explosive composition comprising 2-ethylhexyl nitrate in an amount of about 13.3% by weight, azodicarbonamide in an amount of about 4.8% by weight and ammonium perchlorate in an amount of about 81.9% by weight.

VoD

Laboratory of Liptakov - 22-4-2016 at 14:34

Well, thanks Bert. However I can not find anywhere nothing measurement of VoD. If is VoD (for example) under 3000 m/s, next development is nonsense. Other word, much low velocity. But nobody nothing know. Huh... :cool:

...LL

Bert - 22-4-2016 at 18:31

http://www.google.com/patents/US5811726

As you said, no hard numbers for velocity- Just a general claim that they expect it to be high, based on over pressure at a certain distance, compared to a known explosive.

DIY

Laboratory of Liptakov - 22-4-2016 at 23:52

Well, well...I read this patent minimal 5x. But it is a like reading UFO evidence. Patent is from y. 1996. Thus young. It is a big problem do it measurement VoD? I think, that patent was assigned for two homemade DIY. Even according text, which is as for childrens from basic school. Thanks Bert, ... :cool:

...LL

Bert - 23-4-2016 at 03:39

http://www.amalgamatedinc.com/news.aspx/2015/9/7/cetane-impr...

5 gallon $166.56

Here in USA, it costs about 3X the price of nitromethane in 5 gallon lots. Plenty of well documented high velocity mixtures with NM...

I have read up on Dautriche method, as well as various schemes using oscilloscopes & different detection methods, high speed photography, etc. to determine VoD. Never tried to perform the work-

2-EHN

Laboratory of Liptakov - 23-4-2016 at 08:55

Here is price 12 Libre for 1 litre pure 2- ethylhexyl nitrate: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NBS-LAKI-1-LITRE-Cetane-Booster-2-...
Huh.. Is possible, that post price is 50,4 Libre? Maybe later during a time will be tested...LL

[Edited on 23-4-2016 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

PHILOU Zrealone - 23-4-2016 at 09:22

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

Sorry for the typo: autocorrect is a bitch. I meant ethylenediamine.

PLX-100 is a liquid explosive comprised of 95% nitromethane and 5% ethylenediamine. VoD is around 6300 m/s. I don't have very much experience with it (I don't like liquid explosives.) It looks pretty brisant, although I don't have any specific tests to cite.

My other speculation was a plastic explosive alike to LL's plastics, using ED as fuel.

Yes EDA, in place of EG, why not...or ethanol amine, diethanolamine or triethanol amine.

As explained in Laboratory of Liptakov's (LL) tread I would go for glycerol because denser than EG...one may even think to melt erythritol or to mix glycerol and eryhthritol to increase density and thus VOD.

But if you are smart enough, with EDA (ethylenediamine) in hand and NH4ClO4...you better do very powerful EDA diperchlorate (O3ClOH3N-CH2-CH2-NH3OClO3)
Or if you have iron balls...EDA di-chlorate (O2ClOH3N-CH2-CH2-NH3OClO2) ...amine chlorates are much more shock sensitive than amine perchlorates...

One may even think for LL formulations to work with partially neutralised EDA with one equivalent HNO3 or HClO4...
H2N-CH2-CH2-NH3ONO2
H2N-CH2-CH2-NH3OClO4
or ethanolamine, diethanolamin or triethanolamine mono nitrate/ mono perchlorate.

PHILOU Zrealone - 23-4-2016 at 09:29

Quote: Originally posted by Bert

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

...LL

Quote:

Again if you have gold in hand, why add poor performing EHN to the mix...
AZDCA has the chemical formula H2N-CO-N=N-CO-NH2,
So the simple OB mix of AZDCA (N4H4C2O2) / AP (NH4ClO4) and Al will be very powerful without EHN...

a nitrogen rich explosive - 23-4-2016 at 10:30

@PHILOU Zrealone

Which LL thread?

EDA diperchlorate would be:

Perchloric acid+EDA solution in water until slight excess of EDA --> EDA diperchlorate

[Edited on 23-4-2016 by a nitrogen rich explosive]

kratomiter - 24-4-2016 at 03:44

Hi! I'm trying to perform the synthesis of guanazoguanazole (and guanazole as byproduct) from 2-cyanoguanidine and hydrazine sulfate. The main idea is, after around 8 hours with stirring at 50ºC, filter the insoluble guanazoguanazole. But 2-cyanoguanidine seems quite insoluble, should I acidify the solution with HCl?

EDIT: After 10 min at 70ºC the mix seems to (almost) fully dissolve without any acid added. I guess the heat and the formation of guanazole helps the remaining cyanoguanidine to dissolve. I will post results.

[Edited on 24-4-2016 by kratomiter]

PHILOU Zrealone - 24-4-2016 at 04:58

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

@PHILOU Zrealone

Which LL thread?

EDA diperchlorate would be:
Perchloric acid+EDA solution in water until slight excess of EDA --> EDA diperchlorate

Probably the one where you got the idea to replace its EG with EDA...maybe do a search into the forum with the search engine under both posters (LL and/or I) with glycerol or glycolex as keywords...

Or EDA + HOClO3 until a slight exces of HOClO3 depending on what ingredient is the more valuable to you (or the more dispandable to you).

a nitrogen rich explosive - 24-4-2016 at 07:38

Thanks PHILOU.

SPECULATIVE/THEORETICAL CHEMISTRY:

RDX is C3N3 bonded to three NO2 groups.
Would it be possible to replace the NO2 groups with NF2 groups?
I have no synthesis at all, the idea just struck me.
This would be an extremely high explosive.

Dornier 335A - 24-4-2016 at 11:36

I recall reading a report that investigated NF2 instead of NO2 as explosophore. Their conclusion was that it's only worth it if it's used to oxidise hydrogen and not carbon. HF yields slightly more energy per unit mass than H2O, but what really makes it favourable is that it dissociates at much higher temperatures.

One nearly perfect molecule I saw mentioned in some paper is bis(2-difluoramino-2,2-dinitroethyl)nitroamine - C4H4F4N8O10. As you can see, all the fluorine can form HF and all the carbon can form CO2. The last O2 is not optimal; a potentially superior compound would be the amine instead of nitroamine. Anyway, according to my calculations, this compound reaches an absolutely unparalleled 10600 m/s.

a nitrogen rich explosive - 24-4-2016 at 11:58

Okay...
Would you be able to guess a synth for this?
This really is perfect.

Imagine a compound like a per nitro alkene (like octonitropentane) with all the NO2s replaced with NF2...

Just imagine...

From personal experience with ONP, that has a VoD of 10km/s, and can be prepared from nitroform, nitromethane, trioxane, sulphuric acid, nitric acid, pyridine and acetic anyhydride... I have a paper in the process.

NF2 instead of NO2...

a nitrogen rich explosive - 24-4-2016 at 12:05

I thought it might be an idea to start a thread about this...

I just had the idea of a RDX-style explosive, with the C3N3 ring connected to NF2 groups instead of NO2 groups.

After talking to Dornier 335A:
NF2 is only really worth using when it oxidises hydrogen instead of carbon.
A near perfect compound would be C4N4F4N8O10 or
bis(2-difluoroamino-2,2,dinitroethyl)nitroamine.

Synthesis for the above?

I believe that someone else on the forum spectated on the idea of a hexamine-based NF2 explosive - can anyone else find this?

Dornier 335A - 24-4-2016 at 13:46

You missed the point. Highly nitrated alkanes are carbon rich and would thus not benefit from replacement of the -NO2 with -NF2.

And I don't believe for a microsecond that you've synthesised and measured the detonation velocity of octanitropentane...

I took myself time to calculate the properties of 1,1,2,2,3,4,5,5-octanitropentane (since you didn't specify which isomer):
Enthalpy of formation: 130 kJ/mol (using Firefly, PM3 and extrapolating from gaseous enthalpy)
Density: 2.16 g/cc (using a fragment addition method. ChemSketch gives a more reasonable 2.01 g/cc)
Oxygen balance: +14.8 %
Detonation velocity: 9323 m/s (using my own BKW implementation)
Detonation pressure: 440 kbar

PHILOU Zrealone - 24-4-2016 at 14:00

Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A

You missed the point. Highly nitrated alkanes are carbon rich and would thus not benefit from replacement of the -NO2 with -NF2.

And I don't believe for a microsecond that you've synthesised and measured the detonation velocity of octanitropentane...

I took myself time to calculate the properties of 1,1,2,2,3,4,5,5-octanitropentane (since you didn't specify which isomer):
Enthalpy of formation: 130 kJ/mol (using Firefly, PM3 and extrapolating from gaseous enthalpy)
Density: 2.16 g/cc (using a fragment addition method. ChemSketch gives a more reasonable 2.01 g/cc)
Oxygen balance: +14.8 %
Detonation velocity: 9323 m/s (using my own BKW implementation)
Detonation pressure: 440 kbar

He was refering to its 1,1,1,3,3,5,5,5-ONP from another tread.
He likes to multipost about the same and multiply treads.
He understands quickly but we have to explain him long at large and several times

PHILOU Zrealone - 24-4-2016 at 14:03

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

Thanks PHILOU.

SPECULATIVE/THEORETICAL CHEMISTRY:

RDX is C3N3 bonded to three NO2 groups.
Would it be possible to replace the NO2 groups with NF2 groups?
I have no synthesis at all, the idea just struck me.
This would be an extremely high explosive.

Recheck what is the formula of RDX...
Maybe try H2N-NF2 that would be the most interesting.

a nitrogen rich explosive - 24-4-2016 at 23:26

That does look interesting...

It's a perfect compound too, H2N-NF2 --> 2HF+N2.
What would you call the NF2 group? I know that H2N-NF2 would be a primary amine with the NF2, but I can't think of a pithy name.

Synth ^?

PHILOU Zrealone - 25-4-2016 at 04:39

Already discussed here in "Short question / quick answer - Thread"

PHILOU Zrealone - 25-4-2016 at 05:29

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

Okay...
Would you be able to guess a synth for this?
This really is perfect.

Imagine a compound like a per nitro alkene (like octonitropentane) with all the NO2s replaced with NF2...

Just imagine...

1°) Octonitropentane is not a per-nitro-alcane...
"per-nitro" means that all hydrogens have been replaced by nitrogroups
--> tetranitromethane, hexanitroethane, octanitropropane, decanitrobutane, dodecanitropentane
...since octonitropentane contains stil 4 H...it cant belong to that familly. --> think even more before posting (TEMBP)
2°) Octonitropentane is not a per-nitro-alkene, because it contains stil 4 H (cf supra in 1°)) and most of all it doesn't contain a single double C-C link...reason why ONP is finished by "-ane" instead of "-ene"...
--> TEMBP

Per-difluoroamino compounds will probably be useless since the driving force of the explosion of -NF2 is the energy released from HF formation (as wel explained by Dornier 335A)...this is just like chloramines explosives (see Axt tread) ((R-)2C=N-Cl, R-NCl-R and R-NCl2) with the formation of HCl and black C smoke...
"Per"-meaning here no H's atoms --> you would get much less energy despite a big density.
Also it is not sure that like -NO2 you can put two or more on a single C atom...
--> Ever eard or read about bis-difluoraminomethane, tris-difluoraminomethane (difluoraminoform) or tetra-difluoraminomethane (per-difluoraminomethane)? Not me, I had even to invent a nomenclature for it

!
Also...maybe you get disproportionation...
(R-)2C(-NF2)2 --> NF3 + (R-)2C=N-F

PHILOU Zrealone - 25-4-2016 at 05:44

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

That does look interesting...

It's a perfect compound too, H2N-NF2 --> 2HF+N2.
What would you call the NF2 group? I know that H2N-NF2 would be a primary amine with the NF2, but I can't think of a pithy name.

Synth ^?

So RDX contains hydrogen atoms... RDX is not C3N3 with NO2 groups but C3H6N3 with NO2 groups on the N (nitramines) (those could be on the C atoms --> nitrocarbons)
-->TEMBP

Yes very cool compound...
Its name would be unsymetrical difluorohydrazine (u-DFH) by opposition to symetrical DFH (FHN-NHF), or difluoroaminamide (by relation to nitramide (H2N-NO2)).
Thinking to dinitramide, this raises the possibility of bis-difluoroaminamide (1,1,3,3-tetrafluoro-triazane or F2N-NH-NF2) and tris-difluoroaminamide (tris-difluoroamino-amine/ammonia tris-difluoroamine or N(-NF2)3)...but trinitramide doesn't exist yet (N(-NO2)3) and probably because of disproportionation what will probably apply to TDFAA...

Synthesis of H2N-NF2...maybe via H2N-Cl and Ag-NF2 or Na-NH2 in excess with NF3???

a nitrogen rich explosive - 25-4-2016 at 07:50

These are very cool compounds. However, for one to be a perfect compound, it has to create plumes of boiling HF...

My fume hood's going to have a field day!!!

a nitrogen rich explosive - 25-4-2016 at 10:05

Would diaminofurazan work as a perchlorate salt? If it did, it would have unbridled power, due to an excellent predicted oxygen balance.

Joeychemist - 25-4-2016 at 10:57

The salt of 3,4-Diaminofurazan with perchloric acid will have a (3-aminofurazanyl)ammonium plerchlorate structure and has been isolated in a "stable" crystalline state.

As for explosive and other physical characteristics I have non to offer or reference.

PHILOU Zrealone - 27-4-2016 at 02:59

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

Would diaminofurazan work as a perchlorate salt? If it did, it would have unbridled power, due to an excellent predicted oxygen balance.

Dihydrazino-furazane or -furoxane would make even better diperchlorates...

a nitrogen rich explosive - 29-4-2016 at 07:51

This has indeed been discussed above... But I just had a thought.
C3H6N3-N3F6 + 2KClO3 --> 6HF + 3CO2 + 2KCl + 3N2
This is another one that works out perfectly...

PHILOU Zrealone - 29-4-2016 at 08:28

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

This has indeed been discussed above... But I just had a thought.
C3H6N3-N3F6 + 2KClO3 --> 6HF + 3CO2 + 2KCl + 3N2
This is another one that works out perfectly...

Too bad that KCl is not gaseous...maybe try with NH4ClO4 or N2H5ClO4 instead for better detonic parameters (brisance and VOD)...

Better write C3H6N3-N3F6 in extension
--> (-CH2-N(-NF2)-)3
--> or (-CH(-NF2)-NH-)3
--> or C3H6N3(-NF2)3

a nitrogen rich explosive - 29-4-2016 at 08:47

NH4ClO4 is a much better idea.

Do you know a synthesis for this? I think that it would probably involve HNF2 (difluoroamine) but I can't work out anything else.

a nitrogen rich explosive - 29-4-2016 at 08:49

Also, on a completely different topic:

Would reacting hydrazine with iodine yield N2I4 (like nitrogen triiodide) or would the strains on the 4 iodine atoms be so much that the compound couldn't exist?

[Edited on 29-4-2016 by a nitrogen rich explosive]

aga - 29-4-2016 at 08:56

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

Would reacting iodine with ammonia with iodine yield N2I4

Makes NI₃.

N dunt have space for more than 3 bonds (see orbitals).

Adding iodine twice dunt make any difference

a nitrogen rich explosive - 29-4-2016 at 09:18

I didn't mean that. I meant hydrazine and iodine.

Anyway, what's with the 'dunt?' Something is going on here, and it isn't making me very comfortable.

aga - 29-4-2016 at 10:09

dunt = doesn't = does not

dunt = idle typing. Nothing more than that.

a nitrogen rich explosive - 29-4-2016 at 10:35

Still not convinced. Anyway, I'm not known for idle typing, and the

at the end makes me smell a rat.

annon42 - 30-4-2016 at 14:52

Hey, new member here. What is your suggestion of SAFELY setting off NG? Browsed the forums and the internet for a bit and couldn't come up with a solution. A firecracker as a primary cant set off the NG I made. On the second attempt, i've strapped 3 together in a shotgun shell filled with NG. When the firecracker went off, it pushed the shell (filled with NG) down and with enough force to shatter the container that the rest of the NG is in. I've verified that it is NG because it deflagerates and passes the hammer test.

OneEyedPyro - 30-4-2016 at 16:09

Silver acetylide is about the 'safest' primary that's easy to synthesize.

A fairly small quantity of pressed TATP will initiate NG with good design but this might not be your idea of safe. Speaking of good design, it's probably the biggest determining factor in safety and is to an extent even more important than the primary being used.

All primaries are dangerous by definition but with proper design most can be handled quite safely.

I'm not going to recommend anything in particular but whatever you do decide to do consider these things.

Keep the cap and main charge apart until you're ready to touch it off.

Obviously use a long enough fuse to get away from your device, none of that light it and run for your life BS.

If you're going to press a sensitive primary use some device to hold the tube in place that will not produce shrapnel rather than hold it in your hand (a bit of styrofoam with a hole in it would suffice), also wear eye/ear protection and use a rod smaller in diameter than the tube.

Ensure no sparks from the fuse can fall into the cap and set it off prematurely. Also make sure no sparks can ignite the fuse lower down and reduce burn time, a few wraps of aluminum foil around the lower part of the fuse is enough to help prevent this. Keep in mind some fuse can be affected by confinement and may burn much faster with the foil around it.

Use a tube that's somewhat thick and sturdy such as a bic pen tube, this will help insulate the primary from heat and physical shock.

[Edited on 1-5-2016 by OneEyedPyro]

annon42 - 30-4-2016 at 17:52

Quote: Originally posted by OneEyedPyro

Silver acetylide is about the 'safest' primary that's easy to synthesize.

A fairly small quantity of pressed TATP will initiate NG with good design but this might not be your idea of safe. Speaking of good design, it's probably the biggest determining factor in safety and is to an extent even more important than the primary being used.

All primaries are dangerous by definition but with proper design most can be handled quite safely.

I'm not going to recommend anything in particular but whatever you do decide to do consider these things.

Keep the cap and main charge apart until you're ready to touch it off.

Obviously use a long enough fuse to get away from your device, none of that light it and run for your life BS.

If you're going to press a sensitive primary use some device to hold the tube in place that will not produce shrapnel rather than hold it in your hand (a bit of styrofoam with a hole in it would suffice), also wear eye/ear protection and use a rod smaller in diameter than the tube.

Ensure no sparks from the fuse can fall into the cap and set it off prematurely. Also make sure no sparks can ignite the fuse lower down and reduce burn time, a few wraps of aluminum foil around the lower part of the fuse is enough to help prevent this. Keep in mind some fuse can be affected by confinement and may burn much faster with the foil around it.

Use a tube that's somewhat thick and sturdy such as a bic pen tube, this will help insulate the primary from heat and physical shock.

[Edited on 1-5-2016 by OneEyedPyro]

Silver acetylide seems promising. Love how it is stable when submerged and how easy it is to make. I've made TATP but pressing that scares me. Thanks for the warnings, im using electronic remote ignition and disks above the NG to stop premature ignition and det. Im thinking about ditching the fuze idea and directly tring to light via e-igniter but I will have to test that.

Nitromethane sensitizer

DrManhattan - 1-5-2016 at 01:12

Quick question. Could Ammonium persulfate act as a sensitizer to nitromethane? Since it is a salt of ammonia which does sensitize Nitromethane id assume it would work. Plus Ammonium Persulfate in itself is a strong oxidizer which may help to act as an oxidizer much like in ANNM compositions.

a nitrogen rich explosive - 1-5-2016 at 02:08

Quote: Originally posted by DrManhattan

Quick question. Could Ammonium persulfate act as a sensitizer to nitromethane? Since it is a salt of ammonia which does sensitize Nitromethane id assume it would work. Plus Ammonium Persulfate in itself is a strong oxidizer which may help to act as an oxidizer much like in ANNM compositions.

Given that it is an ammonium salt, and ammonium salts sensitise nitromethane, I doubt that it wouldn't? If you can't work that out, you probably shouldn't be experimenting with it.

a nitrogen rich explosive - 1-5-2016 at 02:13

@annon 42,

Silver acetylide is great on its own. However, from what I have found, synthesis always synthesises a silver acetylide double salt - a compound of silver nitrate and silver acetylide, which is extremely unstable and very highly explosive.
Tdep discusses it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7H0Rwz6Pd8

Personally, I always use hexamethylene triperoxide diamine in my detonators.

OneEyedPyro - 1-5-2016 at 08:04

Silver acetylide is significantly less shock and friction sensitive than HMTD though, not to mention it needs less 'run up' to reach full velocity so a much smaller quantity can be used.

~100mg of SADS on top of 1g heavily pressed ETN is a good cap in terms of safety, power and reliability, it's a far better cap than just plain pressed HMTD.

a nitrogen rich explosive - 1-5-2016 at 09:18

I know, but silver acetylide double salt terrifies me... If that went off in my hand, I would embed it in the ceiling.

PHILOU Zrealone - 1-5-2016 at 09:50

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

I know, but silver acetylide double salt terrifies me... If that went off in my hand, I would embed it in the ceiling.

This is more likely to happen with HMTD!
SADS is safe if you do it right and treat it with respect (no forcing, no hammer shock, no exposure to excessive heat (>150°C) or flame!

annon42 - 1-5-2016 at 11:10

What do you think about AP? I've made AP before and when wet it seems relatively stable. Can I press AP into a shell to set off NG? And is AP more stable than HMTD? Ive tried lighting off AP semi contained (film canister) and only got a deflag.

a nitrogen rich explosive - 1-5-2016 at 11:16

And stop right there. AP - if you mean acetone peroxide - is referred to as the Mother of Satan for a reason. If you are just another random kid who wants to make TATP, fuck off this forum to the chemistry subreddit (or wherever else.) If you know anything about chemistry, you'd know that no one makes TATP because it is too dangerous.

OneEyedPyro - 1-5-2016 at 11:35

HMTD and TATP are very comparable in all respects with the big difference being at similar crystal size *HMTD is more friction sensitive*.
All organic peroxides are both poor choices but HMTD is just as bad if not even worse than TATP.

a nitrogen rich explosive - 1-5-2016 at 11:40

There's a difference. He is obviously inexperienced. Although I am definitely not the best, I count myself as good enough to be able to work with HMTD in small quantities. HMTD is more dangerous, but is a specialist chemical that requires experience. The only reason that I collapsed on him so hard is that I can see another Phone disaster - he synthesised TATP 'for fun' out of extremely easy to find chemicals with no prior experience and blew himself up. I am trying to tell him to stop for his own protection.

PHILOU Zrealone - 1-5-2016 at 11:55

Quote: Originally posted by annon42

What do you think about AP? I've made AP before and when wet it seems relatively stable. Can I press AP into a shell to set off NG? And is AP more stable than HMTD? Ive tried lighting off AP semi contained (film canister) and only got a deflag.

If by AP you meant ammonium perchlorate, or ammonium picrate, no problem.

Better explain more abreviations to avoid confusions...

OneEyedPyro - 1-5-2016 at 11:56

Quote: Originally posted by annon42

Yes, TATP pressed into a tube would work just fine if you decide to go that route.

It's very important to properly synthesize TATP though.

Everything should be kept as cold as possible at all times.

Obviously it needs to be deacidified thoroughly.

Even the acetone should be added dropwise since some heat is generated upon addition to the peroxide.

It should not be gritty in the least, when rubbed between your fingers it should be completely smooth.

[Edited on 1-5-2016 by OneEyedPyro]

a nitrogen rich explosive - 1-5-2016 at 12:37

Anyone who rubs any organic peroxide between his fingers should be taken out of the gene pool.

annon42 - 1-5-2016 at 12:46

Ok looks like neither TCAP or HMTD is a good choice. Silver acetylide it is then. TCAP and all energetic are said to be way more sensitive than they actually are (thats not an excuse to treat it that way though). I've done a lot of lurking here and know how to properly synthesize what I am making.

OneEyedPyro - 1-5-2016 at 13:09

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

Anyone who rubs any organic peroxide between his fingers should be taken out of the gene pool.

Coming from the guy who insists HMTD is preferred over SADS?... Funny

Gently rubbing a small quantity of TATP between your fingers is a much safer alternative to pressing a much larger quantity of it with an unknown crystal size.
Unless you have an alternative method of determining crystal size short of examining it under a microscope, I'd love to hear it.

a nitrogen rich explosive - 1-5-2016 at 13:44

You do have a point... From my own personal experience, HMTD>SADS. Tdep's video I linked above: the stuff blows up all over the place randomly. That's only from personal experience.
No, I don't. The best thing is not to use organic peroxides in the first place!!

a nitrogen rich explosive - 2-5-2016 at 23:18

Would this exist:
Ditetrazole azide (two tetrazole groups joined by an azide group off the carbon atom in the tetrazole ring and an NH group in the other group to form a disubsituted tetrazole?

specialactivitieSK - 4-5-2016 at 04:41

It is possible by hammer test reached the maximum detonation velocity ?
Or a full transfer of detonation waves ?

a nitrogen rich explosive - 4-5-2016 at 04:42

Detonator>hammer.

Dornier 335A - 4-5-2016 at 04:51

A high explosive with low critical diameter will reach full velocity regardless of how it is initiated. Once the shock wave is going it will accelerate up to its maximum velocity as long as there is enough material.

PHILOU Zrealone - 4-5-2016 at 07:17

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

You do have a point... From my own personal experience, HMTD>SADS. Tdep's video I linked above: the stuff blows up all over the place randomly. That's only from personal experience.
No, I don't. The best thing is not to use organic peroxides in the first place!!

Don't confuse... it's not your personnal experience, its Tdep's one!

Also in the video, I don't see Tdep saying what you are trying to say... the stuff blows eventually up all over the place...but only if unconfined coarse powder and put loose on a Al foil heated by a flame from beneath...

Any primary treated that way will inflame, deflagrate or detonate.
SADS is interesting in that it detonates even in the open and in minute amount.

Allowing SADS to go into sunlight is not a good idea!
Tdep says that it deactivates the SADS, but in fact it is some AgNO3 that sets some Ag free upon UV light exposure...
The dark SADS (of the Moon

) is more sensitive than the light coloured one!

Search my advices with the search engine on the making of white/light grey silver acetylide nitrato complex.

[Edited on 4-5-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

PHILOU Zrealone - 4-5-2016 at 07:27

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

Would this exist:
Ditetrazole azide (two tetrazole groups joined by an azide group off the carbon atom in the tetrazole ring and an NH group in the other group to form a disubsituted tetrazole?

NOPE.
Azide is -N3 and is monovalent so you can't put (covalently) two things on it!
Eventually AZO is -N=N- and is bivalent...

PHILOU Zrealone - 4-5-2016 at 07:32

Quote: Originally posted by OneEyedPyro

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

Anyone who rubs any organic peroxide between his fingers should be taken out of the gene pool.

Coming from the guy who insists HMTD is preferred over SADS?... Funny

I would add from the guy who wanted to make for a first trial 20g of solid ultrasensitive benzodiazonium perchlorate out of a 45 ml batch.

a nitrogen rich explosive - 4-5-2016 at 08:58

That's because I didn't take into account the high mol weight of the perchlorate ion.

a nitrogen rich explosive - 4-5-2016 at 08:59

@PHILOU Zrealone,

It is my personal experience. Tdep's video I thought illuminated this and showed in a video what I cannot say. I don't know if it was an impure batch, but my SADS was stupidly sensitive (think azidotetrazole sensitive.)

PHILOU Zrealone - 5-5-2016 at 04:48

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

@PHILOU Zrealone,

It is my personal experience. Tdep's video I thought illuminated this and showed in a video what I cannot say. I don't know if it was an impure batch, but my SADS was stupidly sensitive (think azidotetrazole sensitive.)

Then the problem might be in the process or in the operator handling...
What did you do exactly?

PHILOU Zrealone - 5-5-2016 at 04:55

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

That's because I didn't take into account the high mol weight of the perchlorate ion.

You are simply careless and you don't inform yourself enough of the dangers before attempting a synthesis!

Because even if you "forgot" the perchlorate mass, it only takes 49% of the mass off...
and 10.4 g is stil like 10 cm³ of a friction sensitive primary explosive.
Imagine the power and devastation of 10 cm³ of SADS equivalent HE in a lab glassware swirled by your hand...

No more comment to add! :mad:

a nitrogen rich explosive - 5-5-2016 at 08:32

And no more hands to write with... Stupid error.

Today's Test

MineMan - 7-5-2016 at 16:00

All,

Is it possible to start a "Range Test" Thread, where test can be described or shown?

I did a test today with an FEL licensed friend. A firm putty was made from Al powder, potassium chlorate, smokeless powder and Nitromethane in a (10,60,5,25 ratio). About 15 grams of this was the size of my thumb, it went off very nicely with a .3gram NPED containing a mixture of magnesium, ETN and potassium perchlorate. The putty was tested for sensitivity (because of the potassium chlorate, with a hammer on a large rock. It tooker a stronger blow than ETN to detonate, and usually only part of the sample would detonate. The 15 gram sample broke a 3.5" hardwood branch in half. and produced a white to yellowish explosion about 3' in diameter.

Has anyone else experimented with potassium chlorate, nitromethane, smokeless powder mixture?

The purpose of this test was to compare the sensitivity of a AN based putty vs a potassium chlorate based putty. The AN putty did not detonate completely with a 1 gram cap.

[Edited on 8-5-2016 by MineMan]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 7-5-2016 at 22:40

Very interesting attepmt. NPED detonator, also very good the way. However, nitromethan is always problem with huge evaporating. ...LL... :cool:

a nitrogen rich explosive - 8-5-2016 at 01:49

Magnesium, potassium chlorate, NM and MnO2 in 10-56-25-7 or so is the closest I have got to this... Interestingly, it is quite sensitive and a plastic explosive.

MineMan - 8-5-2016 at 07:34

Laboratory of Liptikov, you are right, a few ml of NM have to be added every few minutes to keep from drying out, but if you plan to use right away it is not a huge issue. It could be stored in an airtight container or wax paper... but it may be a little to sensitive to store.

Nitrogen, I would imagine that mixture you did is very similar to what I tested, you are right, more sensitive than we would expect for a plastic! I am thinking of replacing the aluminum with silicon, same energy, but should increase the stability... I think.

PHILOU Zrealone - 9-5-2016 at 05:09

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan

All,

Is it possible to start a "Range Test" Thread, where test can be described or shown?

I did a test today with an FEL licensed friend. A firm putty was made from Al powder, potassium chlorate, smokeless powder and Nitromethane in a (10,60,5,25 ratio). About 15 grams of this was the size of my thumb, it went off very nicely with a .3gram NPED containing a mixture of magnesium, ETN and potassium perchlorate. The putty was tested for sensitivity (because of the potassium chlorate, with a hammer on a large rock. It tooker a stronger blow than ETN to detonate, and usually only part of the sample would detonate. The 15 gram sample broke a 3.5" hardwood branch in half. and produced a white to yellowish explosion about 3' in diameter.

Has anyone else experimented with potassium chlorate, nitromethane, smokeless powder mixture?

The purpose of this test was to compare the sensitivity of a AN based putty vs a potassium chlorate based putty. The AN putty did not detonate completely with a 1 gram cap.

[Edited on 8-5-2016 by MineMan]

Very nice mixture!
Nothing against its use since all chems are compatible but to put into closed hermetic recipient (avoid too big air gaps that would allow NM to evaporate and condense)

Maybe would be good to test,
-NaClO3 variant (more hygroscopic than KClO3 but you need less per weight for the same effect)
-KClO4 variant
-NaClO4 variant
-NH4ClO4 variant

PHILOU Zrealone - 9-5-2016 at 05:11

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

I didn't mean that. I meant hydrazine and iodine.

Iodine is not compatible with hydrazine.
I2 turns into HI and N2H4 into N2.

PHILOU Zrealone - 9-5-2016 at 05:14

Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive

Magnesium, potassium chlorate, NM and MnO2 in 10-56-25-7 or so is the closest I have got to this... Interestingly, it is quite sensitive and a plastic explosive.

Plastic? I hardly think it could be.
You forgot a plastifiant into your mix...in Mineman receipt there is NM and Nitrocellulose (smokeless powder) that forms a gel.

NM on its own is way too fluid to allow for a plasticity of your mix.

MineMan - 9-5-2016 at 09:30

Philou,

I plan to do some more tests with this mixture, although it may be a bit too sensitive, as a light to moderate hammer blow will detonate small samples placed on a hard rock. The NM gelling works quite nice, it has the consistency of silly putty... till it started evaporating.

Philou, I don't have any of those oxidizers unfortunately.... but yes "the dream" would be to try it with lithium perchlorate, or another similar oxidizer with a super positive OB%.

The mixture was quite more powerful than expected, maybe it is time for some videos...

If anyone decides to make this please perform your own sensitivity tests rather than relay on mine. For example the particle size could effect the results...Thank you.

NM - mix

Laboratory of Liptakov - 9-5-2016 at 12:42

I'm not a fan of nitromethane mix. But I have LiClO4. ( expensive a Dream ) And everything else, of course. You can design composition. The ratios. And I'll try it on the anvil. And I do (I can do) test 20 grams. Against the steel plate. For 20 g suggest, I recommend about 6 mm sheet or 2 x 3mm. As a square profile. So double target. Double target is best target. Is possible do it as video, or only text output research data. With pictures of deformation , for example. It is much easily, of course. Against video. However for samples on the anvil is better video. ...LL... :cool:

recommend

Laboratory of Liptakov - 10-5-2016 at 01:37

Here is recommend. Your mix was Aluminium 10, KClO3 60, gunpowder 5, nitromethan 25. OB this mix is + 3,32. It is slightly positive, but still good. According this table: Aluminium -88, g.powder - 30,9, KClO3 +39,15 NM -39,3. Power of this plastic explosive is according main explosive compound, thus nitromethane. Therefore is better, if will be more NM as main explosive. Better will be is decrease content Al on 5 %. And decrease content oxidiser, if we have LiClO4 with OB + 60,13. Here is recommend mix. : Al 5, LiClO4 40, shotgun powder 5, NM 50. OB mix = - 1,54. However, nothing is sure. Is necessary try it. Is there some reason for big content aluminium 10%? Dr...LL... :cool:

Only my recommend. All can be else, according you... :cool:

MineMan - 10-5-2016 at 10:24

That Sounds good LL,

I just like a lot of aluminum because of the increased energy, and increased duration of the max detonation pressure. 5% is great, I think that is what I send you in the U2U message.

Looking forewords to the results!

Eosin Y - 10-5-2016 at 10:33

Just out of interest: if Al, why not Mg? Wouldn't its higher reactivity make a more explosive mix (as well as the fact that it could act as a sensitizer, eliminating the need for MnO2?

Al

Laboratory of Liptakov - 10-5-2016 at 11:23

Mg is sometimes much reactive in contact with strong oxidizer. Arises MgO surface. But this is question for a chemical experts. Bert, Philou and similarly. In 90% patents of EM is used Al, no Mg. For attempt will be used Aluminium Bright, color type. .LL.. :cool:

MineMan - 10-5-2016 at 15:29

Al releases more energy per weight and volume than Mg.... But if the mixture is not sensitive enough with Al than Mg would be a good next step.

PHILOU Zrealone - 11-5-2016 at 12:11

Or Al-Mg alloy used in some car wheels and some vehicles metallic parts to allow for lighter structures (airplaines).

Minemanit

Laboratory of Liptakov - 11-5-2016 at 21:50

Well, results are on the World. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyCohWrcSoc&feature=gp-n...
For some next attempts I recommended use some different composition, ratios, because with LiClO4 is material much soft, as porridge. And even expensive. Important is, that it was worked. It is not for NM mixture never of course. From classic detonator. Maybe will be better, used again only KClO3. Material will be more density for better manipulation. And much cheap, of course. Problem can be high reactive KClO3 in any mix. But it is question next examination. ...LL... :cool:

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