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Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide

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underground - 15-6-2015 at 23:55

Have you neutrilized it ? I had the same results with hmtd but after the acid removed with carbonate and washed again, it was much more better.

KesterDraconis - 16-6-2015 at 17:36

That is probably it. Since I used the 6ml I make in my batches the day they are finished I didn't think it would be necessary, but thinking on it now that would probably help a lot.

underground - 16-6-2015 at 20:47

:D:D:D

NedsHead - 17-6-2015 at 02:10

How you are containing the MEKP while attempting to detonate it could be the answer to all your problems. What is your exact procedure in detail?

KesterDraconis - 19-6-2015 at 22:46

I take the MEKP and contain it in a small straw wrapped in aluminum foil and crimped at one end. A black powder fuse is inserted in the other end and then that end is crimped as well. I then wrap it in a piece of duct tape. I tried once with just MEKP, and then with MEKP soaked up in nitrocellulose. Both times I just got deflagarations. Out of four times trying to get a drop to ignite and explode over a candle flame (the drop is wrapped in aluminum foil of course) I only got it to explode once.

Hawkguy - 20-6-2015 at 10:28

Maybe your problem is the MEKP is contaminated with MEK and water. Can't you mix it with water to remove MEK, collect, and dry with anhydrous salts?

Bot0nist - 20-6-2015 at 11:27

Leaving raw MEKP in an open container and in a cool dry place allows both the more volatile MEK and water to evaporate quite well. Even so, it is hard to get it to preform well, even when dry.

KesterDraconis - 20-6-2015 at 14:42

Perhaps, I will try neutralizing it first however. I do not like leaving EM around under any circumstances however, I and I am cautious about drying it as you both have suggested, since that would mean an extended amount of time (a day or two), with it laying around.

(I use almost all energetic materials the day I make them at the site I make them, MEKP stretches that limit since I do it the day after I make it)

Hawkguy - 20-6-2015 at 14:43

Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
Leaving raw MEKP in an open container and in a cool dry place allows both the more volatile MEK and water to evaporate quite well. Even so, it is hard to get it to preform well, even when dry.
About the difficulty; technically, that's not a BAD thing

KesterDraconis - 20-6-2015 at 17:22

Quote: Originally posted by Hawkguy  
About the difficulty; technically, that's not a BAD thing


Which, I will add, is precisely why I am using this primary.

Bot0nist - 20-6-2015 at 18:01

An inconsistent and poorly effective primary is not, IMO, a safety feature. Consistent reliability and even backup initiators are a safety measure in their own right. This keeps people from having to approach and manipulate, or remove a secondary charge when it fails to work. Not quite the same as, but akin to approaching a dangerous firework after the fuse seems to burn out at its base.

I'm sure organic peroxides can be used as makeshift, albeit dangerous and unpredictable initiators, but they are poorly suited to this task though, compared to the plethora of superior primaries that are within the realm of possibility for the hobbiest. The fact that they are rather poor at consistently initiating unless used in relatively larger amounts, and or with very sensitive secondary materials is just one of the lessor troubles they present.

Also, MEKP being a very sensitive liquid explosive almost surely presents even another level of difficulty and danger for a variety of practical reasons.

I have in the past experimented with this compound, but if you want my opinion, and one that I'm quite sure other more experienced members share, it is that MEKP, and other organic peroxides hold little to no use other than as novelty or curiosity.

Yes, they are very simply made and the needed reagents are available to most anyone who wants them, but I think their sensitivity, unpredictability, and lack of efficacy as an initiator makes them a poor choice to contemplate, regardless of their convenience.

[Edited on 21-6-2015 by Bot0nist]

KesterDraconis - 20-6-2015 at 19:33

Neither Hawkguy nor I listed the qualities of this primary being inconsistent or poorly effective as safety features, in fact, we didn't even say either of those things regarding it in a general sense (My question is about my MEKP that I am having trouble with, not everyone and all MEKP). So I don't understand why you mentioning those qualities as not being safety features, nobody thought they were.

What we did say is that the difficulty in getting the primary to detonate (e.g. "its not extremely sensitive", not "its unreliable") is a safety feature in the sense that there is far less chance of accidentally setting it off and losing a finger or two, which I am sure is a far worse problem in terms of accidents than manipulating secondary devices, which I don't even see the point of. I mean, and maybe I am simply being a fool myself in this regard since I am not very experienced, but why would you even approach a failed device unless you definitively had to (e.g. you are EOD and don't have a robot)? Destroy it from a distance by some means for goodness sake, I wouldn't think to go and fiddle around with one.

I am curious though, what would you suggest that I use as a primary? Considering of course the availability of materials I have and my experience are not very high.

[Edited on 21-6-2015 by KesterDraconis]

Bot0nist - 20-6-2015 at 20:10

I see, and may have misunderstood, since IIRC, organic peroxides and devices employing them are notoriously sensitive and prone to accidental and unexpected detonation. I also am pretty sure there is legit documentation that compares their sensitivities to various stimuli is available.

A common fallacy with these materials seems to be that one can be lulled into complacency and false security after several first hand experiences indicate that they are not overly sensitive or unpredictable. Organic peroxides have a long and full track record of accidents. The simple fact that even during the shortages and desperation of wartime, they were only briefly considered and quickly dismissed of having any practical value.

As far as a good primary is concerned, almost any are superior to peroxides for a variety of reasons. Each has its own pros and cons of course. Mercury fulminate, lead azide, basic lead picrate, silver acetylide DS, and other are all not unreasonably difficult. DDNP, and azo-clathrates seem to be excellent, but more difficult.

I meant no offense if I came off as.terse or scolding. I was only trying offer what I could from my experiences and from all I've gleaned on the subject reading and discussing in my few years on the forum. By all means, keep experimenting, have fun, and stay safe.

Best of luck,
Bot.

[Edited on 21-6-2015 by Bot0nist]

NedsHead - 21-6-2015 at 00:42

I think Hawkguy's right, your MEKP May still be saturated with MEK/water and your problem might be solved by thoroughly neutralizing, washing and drying.

It's odd to me that people are having trouble initiating their MEKP reliably as I have found it to be TOO sensitive to flame and shock, although I did once test sensitivity of a fresh batch without proper drying, absorbed into paper towel and all I observed was mild popping, fizzing and smoking.

Another thing to note is I have never tested straight MEKP, only always absorbed into cellulose, paper towel or sawdust, all detonated easily and reliably with shock, open flame and electric igniter.

Have you tested shock sensitivity?

KesterDraconis - 21-6-2015 at 12:09

Don't worry, you didn't offend me Bot0nist, and honestly if I need scolding then go ahead and do so. I won't deny that I am an ignorant eighteen year old who still has much to learn.

I've been considering mercury fulminate actually. Primarily because I do have the breathing apparatus to keep me safe and I understand the process for the synth, I simply need the mercury.

Ned, I have only his my MEKP with a hammer when its absorbed in a paper towel. Then it went off somewhat easily (easier than the nitroglycerin I tested with it, which was to give me a sort of reference material). However, lighting one of these towels only results in a violent deflagaration (it is quite flammable), rather than a detonation. I will probably try again tomorrow, as I will once more have access to my testing site, however I am considering simply abandoning it for all the trouble it is, and following Bot0nists advice. (besides this, I have some interest in fulminates, which I've not yet synthesized)

[Edited on 21-6-2015 by KesterDraconis]

NedsHead - 21-6-2015 at 13:32

I think that's a wise decision KesterDraconis, there are more reliable, safer options out there that are also more challenging and rewarding to synthesize than MEKP.

Ammonium nitrate + MEKP solution

Akira990 - 23-8-2015 at 09:39

I guess we all know many types of ANFO (ammonium nitrate + fuel oil) , i've been making ANFO with diesel as fuel oil. I know about ammonium nitrate + nitromethan (or ethan) ANNM and i guess you can combine AN with anything flammable to make some explosive. I recently found some MEKP solution, it is from Turkey so not much information but i think it is 60% solution. I can only guess dimethylphthalate is used as solution for MEKP so what i am thinking maybe i can use it as substitute for diesel in ANFO mixture.. I am thinking to make some changes and use 10% of this MEKP solution with AN insted of regular 95% / 5% ANFO.. Anyone tried something like this ?

Bot0nist - 23-8-2015 at 11:04

Not sure about commercial MEKP solutions for use in ANFO, but members have made improvised "dynamite" by soaking dry and finely ground nitrate salts (ammonium, potassium) in homemade MEKP. I can't recall what proportions were used to achieve detonation via fuse, as if it were a primary, or initiation with a primary as if it were a secondary. The search engine may yield more information on this.

I have no experiance with commercial MEKP solutions, but I would be extremely cautious trying to sensitize ammonium nitrate with it for use as a blasting agent, knowing the reactivity and unpredictability of pure MEKP. Many other fuels can and have been used with ammonium nitrate, all of which have a history of use and supporting data.

[Edited on 23-8-2015 by Bot0nist]

Akira990 - 23-8-2015 at 14:38

Bot0nist, thank you for your answer and help. I am not trying to sensitize AN i am just trying to make ANFO mixture which is more poverful than original (AN + diesel)
I know ANNM (nitromethan or ethan) is more sensitive than regular ANFO with diesel and also produce more poverful detonation but nitromethan or nitroethan is not something you can find easily and cheap in my country. I have tried to synthesize nitroethane from sodium ethyl sulfate but it proves to be very difficult and not worthy so i am searching for alternatives. I also know i can add aluminium powder to regular ANFO but i am currently looking for best option as fuel for ANFO, when i say best i mean easy to obtain, not too expensive and better results than original AN diesel mixtures..

PHILOU Zrealone - 24-8-2015 at 02:34

Nitroaromatic fuels are also good options:

Nitrobenzene, DNB, TNB
Nitrotoluens, DNT, TNT
Nitronaphtalenes, DNN, TNN, TeNN
...

Akira990 - 24-8-2015 at 07:45

TNT, yea thats good option for fuel i can probably try to synthesize but in that case i would go straight for RDX..

I am looking for something that is easily obtainable and can be used as fuel oil in mixture with AN and one more thing to be much effective than regular diesel. I would probably go for nitromethane or nitroethane and Al so end product would be ANNMAl but that staff is hard to get in my country and even if i get it i would be on drug manufacturer list, i will try MEKP 60% solution it cant be worse than regular diesel i only hope it prove to be much better something like ANNM..

Praxichys - 24-8-2015 at 08:09

The mixture with MEKP might perform worse than diesel fuel.

From what I have gathered, the MEKP is diluted with various phthalate esters and methyl ethyl ketone. Diesel fuel is just a hydrocarbon with C-H bonds, which rearrange to CO2 and H2O in an explosion with an oxidizer. The esters and ketones in MEKP already have C-O and C=O bonds, which will reduce the total energy output. MEKP may make the mixture more sensitive though. Also, the density of diesel is ~0.75g/cc and the MEKP mix is ~1.12g/cc, so there may be some help there.

100% MEKP and AN are very powerful and surprisingly brisant:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=20#pid...

http://www.axson-na.com/MSDSs/MSDS%20-%20MEKP%20Liquid%20Har...

Akira990 - 24-8-2015 at 10:20

That is why i asked here, before i try it myself and waste AN and other materials on this. I have just one little correction 60% MEKP is diluted with dimethylphthalate, there is no methyl ethyl ketone just methyl ethyl ketone peroxide and dimethylphthalate.

I am also thinking if there is good way to obtain 90%+ methyl ethyl ketone peroxide from this solution ?

dimethylphthalate boiling point is ~280 C and MEKP flash point is just 82 C so that way is not possible. Melting point of dimethylphthalate is 2 C and MEKP between -5 and -10 C..

So if i put this solution to 0 C dimethylphthalate should freeze and MEKP stay liquid ?

Praxichys - 24-8-2015 at 11:06

Thanks for the clarification. I have posted some images so others can visualize the players in this game.
MEKP: Dimethyl phthalate:


Thinking out loud, you might be able to run an acid/base extraction if you could acid hydrolyze the phthalate in water without destroying the MEKP. It seems possible in theory but may not work at all in practice.

Also, I think you might be confusing flash point with autoignition temperature. Flash point is the temperature when the liquid produces enough vapor above it to be ignitable with an open flame. The autoignition point is the temperature where something bursts into flames by itself. Personally, however, I would never heat MEKP past even room temperature.

Bert - 24-8-2015 at 12:41

Google is your friend...

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=20&...

Rosco Bodine - 24-1-2016 at 12:34

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Quote:
Originally posted by Zinc
I have heard that MEKP and a solution of AP in MEKP do not need to be neutralized and that in fact residual acidity makes them more stable. Is that true? I have 65 grams of 50:50 MEKP/AP sitting in a measuring cylinder so I would like to know what is the safer thing to do before storage.


I have a half liter of the 50/50 separated straight from
synthesis , unwashed , no neutralization , put into storage
in a cool and dark location , and showing zero decomposition after several years . No change whatsoever is evident .


Recently I disposed of the original 50/50 MEKP/AP sample which had been stored for almost 13 years and the material showed no sign of decomposition whatever. What to make of others reported different observations about the stability and sensitivity I don't know, except to attribute differences to unknown impurities or unidentified byproducts. My original sample was still absolutely water clear and unchanged after more than a decade of storage underground.

The material was first described here
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=470&am...

A time capsule storage experiment :D

ill behaviour - 18-5-2016 at 11:10

Hello all these are my observations making MEKP/AP

This is the first time I have made explosives. I really wondered if what you people were saying was true and since it would only cost less that $30 i went for it.

I followed Mr Roscoes method.
I made 3 batches as to use all the chemicals.
First batch was not end product as described. It did have 2 layers but the bottom layer was hundreds of tiny bubbles that varied in size. I believe I made a mistake letting the peroxide/ MEK/Acetone get warmish and chems were not measured perfectly but by eye.
2nd batch I used my mums glass measuring cup to get accurate measurements I did not allow Peroxide/MEK/Acetone to rise in temp. The reaction did not start until the 4th acid addition 15 minutes later reaction was complete I believe as even though I left jar for 24 hours there was no increase in yield. The 2 layers were clearly visible this time but the top layer fairly clear and bottom layer was cloudy. Where I made a mistake was adding the acid whenever I felt like it not every 15 minutes.
3rd batch I was took extra care to follow procedure to the letter and to my amazement it has worked like clockwork.
2 layers formed top layer was cloudy and bottom layer crystal clear like water and what a yield. bottom layer was at least 80% of the jar.
Thank you all very much I am looking forward to impressing my brothers with some real detonations much cooler than the dull soda stream or chlorine booms they make.


glymes - 23-5-2016 at 05:13

You made MEKP with grammar like that using the chemicals BY EYE? Are you insane? You must have some kind of death wish, or you are a kewl. If I were to bet, I'd go for the latter. You need to get off this forum.
I'm starting with energetics at the moment: I'm 14 as well. I'm starting with a simple perchlorate mix! Either change your attitude or get off the forum. This isn't a YouTube comments section: you will learn the hard way that stupid people get very bad press very quickly. I found that out the hard way.

[Edited on 23-5-2016 by glymes]

PHILOU Zrealone - 23-5-2016 at 06:26

Quote: Originally posted by ill behaviour  
Hello all these are my observations making MEKP/AP

This is the first time I have made explosives. I really wondered if what you people were saying was true and since it would only cost less that $30 i went for it.

I followed Mr Roscoes method.
I made 3 batches as to use all the chemicals.
First batch was not end product as described. It did have 2 layers but the bottom layer was hundreds of tiny bubbles that varied in size. I believe I made a mistake letting the peroxide/ MEK/Acetone get warmish and chems were not measured perfectly but by eye.
2nd batch I used my mums glass measuring cup to get accurate measurements I did not allow Peroxide/MEK/Acetone to rise in temp. The reaction did not start until the 4th acid addition 15 minutes later reaction was complete I believe as even though I left jar for 24 hours there was no increase in yield. The 2 layers were clearly visible this time but the top layer fairly clear and bottom layer was cloudy. Where I made a mistake was adding the acid whenever I felt like it not every 15 minutes.
3rd batch I was took extra care to follow procedure to the letter and to my amazement it has worked like clockwork.
2 layers formed top layer was cloudy and bottom layer crystal clear like water and what a yield. bottom layer was at least 80% of the jar.
Thank you all very much I am looking forward to impressing my brothers with some real detonations much cooler than the dull soda stream or chlorine booms they make.



Beware of the jar...if it is glass...with a sensitive compound like MEKP or CTAP, it is like a grenade generating lethal shrapnels in case it detonates.

Note that I had a police lab report of a wet CTAP sample exploding into the police lab fridge...
It was from the investigation of a bottle found in a lake in Brussels, the environmental bureau (IBGE-BIM) had found ducks and fishes dead and a sample was sent to the lab I was working for to evaluate the potential cause...
We did a lot of conventionnal tests but the client had noticed that aceton bottle looked alike the bottle found in the bottom of the lake.
The bottle had fumed when he opened it (I told him it was not very wise to do so if he did'nt know what's in it)
I said that aceton is not toxic enought to kill ducks and fishes especially in a lake that would dilute the aceton a lot.
We found that pH was quite acidic and that it contained a lot of chloride.
I then hypothesised that aceton + H2O2 + HCl may have formed CTAP and that a kewl bomber was testing it/blasting it into the lake...the client was sceptical...until next day when he explained me that the police lab fridge had exploded during the night!

CONCLUSION:
ORGANIC PEROXYDES ARE NOT FOR FUN...they look stable and that you can handle it...but it can explode without reason even when wet, cold and undisturbed!

PHILOU Zrealone - 23-5-2016 at 06:31

Quote: Originally posted by glymes  
You made MEKP with grammar like that using the chemicals BY EYE? Are you insane? You must have some kind of death wish, or you are a kewl. If I were to bet, I'd go for the latter. You need to get off this forum.
I'm starting with energetics at the moment: I'm 14 as well. I'm starting with a simple perchlorate mix! Either change your attitude or get off the forum. This isn't a YouTube comments section: you will learn the hard way that stupid people get very bad press very quickly. I found that out the hard way.

[Edited on 23-5-2016 by glymes]

You are not wel placed to give advices to others...better keep such comments for yourself.

It is not real organic chemistry that needs much control...it is like cooking so BY EYE is OK, but you need to keep the temperature low and avoid to do it in large quantities....what is tempting because of the easyness of making... Without cooling you may gas yourself by a big lachrymatory smog of boiling chloroaceton, Cl2 and aceton what is by the way very inflamable and explosive (risk of FAE).
So you can easily make, if you don't take care 100g or more of it what is equivalent to 80g TNT --> one or two dynamite sticks....
Thus enough to blow your body and kitchen/house appart.
The substance is also very unpredictable and may detonate on its own (even when wet, in the cold and undisturbed) as proven by my true experienced story in last post!

[Edited on 23-5-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

glymes - 23-5-2016 at 06:54

I know that I'm not in the position to do safety talks... But when someone makes organic peroxides FOR THEIR OWN FAMILY I'm obviously going to forcefully make my point.

ill behaviour - 23-5-2016 at 19:54

Very sorry if I offended any of you good people.
I appreciate the concern for me and my families safety.
I conducted my experiment outside and away from the house.
I live semi rural so my danger to others was a minimum.
I disposed of the first 2 batches by dumping them in a 1 foot hole in the ground.
The good stuff was soaked into toilet paper and exploded safely and without incident except to say it was loudest thing I have ever heard and my brothers said it shook the windows and set my mums car alarm off. They asked was it was I said match heads.
They didn't believe me but I decided not to tell them because if
they had a accident I would feel I was to blame. Later today my plan is to put a charge into a rabbit burrow BTW this is a huge complex of connected tunnels with multiple entry holes/exit holes and around 30 foot by 30 foot area.

glymes - 24-5-2016 at 07:05

Ok. Fair enough.
I'm going to try 7:3 NH4ClO4:MEKP to see whether the MEKP has enough heat of formation for enough time to elevate the perchlorate to its detonation temperature.

PHILOU Zrealone - 26-5-2016 at 01:51

Quote: Originally posted by glymes  
Ok. Fair enough.
I'm going to try 7:3 NH4ClO4:MEKP to see whether the MEKP has enough heat of formation for enough time to elevate the perchlorate to its detonation temperature.

As such "Heat of formation" has little interest to increase the temperature of NH4ClO4 to detonation...The only interesting parameter here is: has MEKP enough kick (detonation strenght) to initiate NH4ClO4 to detonate.

Heat of formation (from the elements) is only interesting if it is positive (endothermic) because then, when the molecule is burned (exploded/detonated) the heat of formation of its decomposition products (from the elements) what is negative (exothermic) adds to the heat of formation of the initial molecule.

This comes from Hess law of thermodynamic:
No matter the way you go from the réactants to the products, the energy of reaction is simply the difference between the energy of the products - the energy of the reactants.
So nothing is against a passing by the elements as an intermediary point wich is a good reference since H°f (enthalpy standart of formation of compounds from the elements) is used for the purpose to get a reference scale/point of energy for energies of reactions....

I already gave you a warning about "playing" with organic peroxydes...may explode with no reason even when wet and in the cold undisturbed...
Friction sensitivity with mineral cristals like NH4ClO4 must be avoided and contact with metals like Fe, Cu, ... also.

[Edited on 26-5-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]

advice

Laboratory of Liptakov - 26-5-2016 at 02:44

Glymes, if you have NH4ClO4, you can prepare TACP and copper hexamine perchlorate for pretty power detonator.
It is much more safety, than madness mix with organic peroxide. No-compatability with metals is usually problem for normal use on fields conditions. Next words, if you have AP, you can prepare almost anything from family of energetic materials. KClO4, NaClO4, HClO4 and more. However estimate, that my advice are almost unneccessary.....LL....:cool:

glymes - 28-5-2016 at 11:24

Upon heating, would NH4ClO4 decompose into NH3 and HClO4, or otherwise unspecified?

PHILOU Zrealone - 29-5-2016 at 06:03

Quote: Originally posted by glymes  
Upon heating, would NH4ClO4 decompose into NH3 and HClO4, or otherwise unspecified?

No!
Into N2, HCl, Cl2, H2O and O2.

Camroc37 - 26-8-2016 at 14:57

Quote: Originally posted by madscientist  
If the temperature of the reaction is kept low, I suppose HCl could be used.

As for adding the H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub>, I suggest diluting it prior to adding it to the solution prepared by mixing MEK with hydrogen peroxide.

I have only ever used HCl for making MEKP and it worked just the same. More must be used compared to H2SO4 of course, but it seemed that the temperature never really went up much.
I did have a question: Do you know if freezing MEKP would reduce the sensitivity? Thanks for a reply.

PHILOU Zrealone - 27-8-2016 at 04:57

"More must be used compared to H2SO4 of course"
--> WRONG!
HCl is a more than 1000 times a stronger acid than H2SO4...so despite it can only reach 35% by weight (HCl gas dissolution into water) it will always protonate much than H2SO4...except when very dilluted where the two acidities tends to nearly equal.

Dany - 27-8-2016 at 07:49

The first proton of H2SO4 is a stronger acid than HCl (see Ref. 1):

HOSO2O---H, pKa= -10

Cl---H, pKa= -7

Compared to HNO3:

O2NO---H, pKa= -1.5

Reference:

[1] Marye Anne Fox, & James K. Whitesell. Organic Chemistry, 3rd edition, Jones and Bartlett Publishers ,2004, p. 295

[Edited on 27-8-2016 by Dany]

kratomiter - 27-8-2016 at 08:26

Quote: Originally posted by Camroc37  
Quote: Originally posted by madscientist  
If the temperature of the reaction is kept low, I suppose HCl could be used.

As for adding the H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub>, I suggest diluting it prior to adding it to the solution prepared by mixing MEK with hydrogen peroxide.

I have only ever used HCl for making MEKP and it worked just the same. More must be used compared to H2SO4 of course, but it seemed that the temperature never really went up much.
I did have a question: Do you know if freezing MEKP would reduce the sensitivity? Thanks for a reply.


Freezing MEKP would be a bad idea, IDK its melting point but usually crystals are more impact sensitive than liquid explosives.

XeonTheMGPony - 27-8-2016 at 10:09

when I made a few Ml of it I washed in distilled salted water then absorbed into clean dry wood dust, then allowed to sit for several weeks to test stability, then it was fired on the spot so it needn't been handled.

It behaved well, but the synth was very care fully don with good clean chemicals and all procedures where care fully followed. Even then I did not trust it! Peroxide in of its self under goes decomp in the fridge with no light exposure!!!!!

Put simply you are playing a serious game of chance messing with them, make a few Ml to experience but then stay far far away for your own sake and the sake of relatives that may end up IDing your body

It was entertaining to make and fire but no where enough to endure the risks!

PHILOU Zrealone - 27-8-2016 at 12:03

Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
The first proton of H2SO4 is a stronger acid than HCl (see Ref. 1):

HOSO2O---H, pKa= -10

Cl---H, pKa= -7

Compared to HNO3:

O2NO---H, pKa= -1.5

Reference:

[1] Marye Anne Fox, & James K. Whitesell. Organic Chemistry, 3rd edition, Jones and Bartlett Publishers ,2004, p. 295

[Edited on 27-8-2016 by Dany]

pKa1 of H2SO4 is usually refered into pKa tables into the range -3 (at least into water) while that of HCl is 6.3 in the same context...
Maybe since the reference is for Organic chemistry the pKa is into another solvent than H2O...often DMSO is used into pKa tables also.

PHILOU Zrealone - 29-8-2016 at 02:09

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
The first proton of H2SO4 is a stronger acid than HCl (see Ref. 1):

HOSO2O---H, pKa= -10

Cl---H, pKa= -7

Compared to HNO3:

O2NO---H, pKa= -1.5

Reference:

[1] Marye Anne Fox, & James K. Whitesell. Organic Chemistry, 3rd edition, Jones and Bartlett Publishers ,2004, p. 295

[Edited on 27-8-2016 by Dany]

pKa1 of H2SO4 is usually refered into pKa tables into the range -3 (at least into water) while that of HCl is 6.3 in the same context...
Maybe since the reference is for Organic chemistry the pKa is into another solvent than H2O...often DMSO is used into pKa tables also.

Edit: Frogot the "-" sign for HCl that is -6.3 of pKa

C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2 - 16-1-2019 at 16:02

I read somewhere in this thread that MEKP is not compatible with metals. Do metallic compounds catalyze decomposition of organic peroxides (the way some metallic compounds do with hydrogen peroxide) or is MEKP simply corrosive to metals due to traces of acid in it from catalyzing the reaction. Would MEKP be okay in metal (e.g. brass) if it where neutralized first?

Also, 497 claimed to have had success sensitizing smokeless powder by soaking it in MEKP : https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=20... Would anyone happen to know if Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide degrades smokeless powder/NC/NG? would it become unstable or lose its power if left mixed for an hour? what about a day or a week? I know this is an old thread and a beginner question, but I couldn't find anything (on SM or otherwise) about the compatibility of organic peroxides with nitrate esters.

nitro-genes - 17-1-2019 at 00:04

MEKP is commonly used as a hardener for epoxy resins, I think going through some material safety data sheets (MSDS) will provide most of the answers you are looking for.

C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2 - 24-1-2019 at 15:08

Thanks. I looked at some, and found out some more information. According to www.illawarrasurf.com/msds/mekp.pdf the peroxide hardener is incompatible with "strong acids, strong alkalis, reducing agents"

For Crompton Hi Point 90, (www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/MSDS_TAP_MEKPC.pdf) it says "avoid contamination with any foreign substance" and "Incompatible materials Strong acids, Reducing agents, accelerators. Promoters. Other reactive chemicals."

Easy composites MSDS (https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/downloads/MSDS/EC-MSDS-MEKP...) "Do not mix with accelerators, reducing agents, strong alkalis, andheavy metal compounds..." The product must never be stored together with accelerators such as driers, heavy metal compounds etc. Avoid contact with rust..." Use clean equipment an tools of inert material such as stainless steel, polyethylene, polypropylene, glass."

"Incompatible materials such as acids, strong bases, tert amines, friedel-crafts catalysts, heavy metals, cobalt accelerators or other peroxice accelerators or promoters, rust, brass, galvanized steel, acetone, reducing or oxidizing agents, grinding dust, and dirt."

Arkema: https://www.arkema.com/export/shared/.content/media/download... "keep away from incompatible materials such as: Strong oxidizing agents, powerful reducers, acids, bases, amines, transition metal salts, sulfur compounds, rust, ash, dusts (risk of self-accelerating exothermic decomposition)..."

Norox MEKP-925 www.advanced-plastics.com/Docs/MSDS/M29_141218%20SDS.pdf "keep/store away from clothing,/strong acids, bases, heavy metal salts and other reducing substances/combustible materials..." "keep away from strong acids, bases, heavy metals, salts, reduing agents and accelerators. Contaminants (e.g. rust, dust, ash). Combustible materials, Risk of decomposition. Dimethylaniline, Cobalt Napthenate and other promoters, accelerators, reducing agents, or any hot material."

http://www.tuffstuff.co.uk/application/files/7914/4957/5131/... "keep away from reducing agents, e.g. amines, acids, alkali, heavy metal compounds (e.g. accelerators, dryers, metal soaps)." "Violent reactions may be expected with acid, alkali, heavy metals and reducing agents. Avoid contact with rust."

"Use only stainless steel 31.6. PVC, Polythene or glass-lined equipment"

Regarding smokeless powder, I could only find http://ceemjournal.org/upload/pdf/ceem-15-055.pdf "A case of severe corrosive gastritis and liver necrosis caused by ingestion of methyl ethyl ketone peroxide" by Jung Oh Chang et. al This is mainly about an emergency medical case in which someone accidentally drank MEKP resin hardener (stored in an unlabled water bottle) and died. However, it does say that "It is used as a general industrial solvent in the manufacturing of nitrocellulose coating, vinyl film, and smokeless powder."

However, I get this feeling that when talking about "a general industrial solvent" they might be confusing MEKP with un peroxided methyl ethyl ketone.

Some of the material safety data sheets did not mention metals, or only mentioned their compounds. But since some cautioned against transition metals in general (as opposed to just their salts), and one mentioned brass specifically, I think the safest assumption (to the extent that making and storing organic peroxide compounds can be called safe) would be to consider MEKP incompatible with brass.

Whether it is compatible with smokeless powder, however, remains unclear to me.

[Edited on 25-1-2019 by C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 25-1-2019 at 05:44

My opinion is, Leave the think for mixing MEKP + nitrocompounds. Exist a lot better compounds for examination, for beginners.....:cool:

Simoski - 18-5-2019 at 22:49

Quote: Originally posted by C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2  
Thanks. I looked at some, and found out some more information. According to www.illawarrasurf.com/msds/mekp.pdf the peroxide hardener is incompatible with "strong acids, strong alkalis, reducing agents"

For Crompton Hi Point 90, (www.tapplastics.com/uploads/pdf/MSDS_TAP_MEKPC.pdf) it says "avoid contamination with any foreign substance" and "Incompatible materials Strong acids, Reducing agents, accelerators. Promoters. Other reactive chemicals."

Easy composites MSDS (https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/downloads/MSDS/EC-MSDS-MEKP...) "Do not mix with accelerators, reducing agents, strong alkalis, andheavy metal compounds..." The product must never be stored together with accelerators such as driers, heavy metal compounds etc. Avoid contact with rust..." Use clean equipment an tools of inert material such as stainless steel, polyethylene, polypropylene, glass."

"Incompatible materials such as acids, strong bases, tert amines, friedel-crafts catalysts, heavy metals, cobalt accelerators or other peroxice accelerators or promoters, rust, brass, galvanized steel, acetone, reducing or oxidizing agents, grinding dust, and dirt."

Arkema: https://www.arkema.com/export/shared/.content/media/download... "keep away from incompatible materials such as: Strong oxidizing agents, powerful reducers, acids, bases, amines, transition metal salts, sulfur compounds, rust, ash, dusts (risk of self-accelerating exothermic decomposition)..."

Norox MEKP-925 www.advanced-plastics.com/Docs/MSDS/M29_141218%20SDS.pdf "keep/store away from clothing,/strong acids, bases, heavy metal salts and other reducing substances/combustible materials..." "keep away from strong acids, bases, heavy metals, salts, reduing agents and accelerators. Contaminants (e.g. rust, dust, ash). Combustible materials, Risk of decomposition. Dimethylaniline, Cobalt Napthenate and other promoters, accelerators, reducing agents, or any hot material."

http://www.tuffstuff.co.uk/application/files/7914/4957/5131/... "keep away from reducing agents, e.g. amines, acids, alkali, heavy metal compounds (e.g. accelerators, dryers, metal soaps)." "Violent reactions may be expected with acid, alkali, heavy metals and reducing agents. Avoid contact with rust."

"Use only stainless steel 31.6. PVC, Polythene or glass-lined equipment"

Regarding smokeless powder, I could only find http://ceemjournal.org/upload/pdf/ceem-15-055.pdf "A case of severe corrosive gastritis and liver necrosis caused by ingestion of methyl ethyl ketone peroxide" by Jung Oh Chang et. al This is mainly about an emergency medical case in which someone accidentally drank MEKP resin hardener (stored in an unlabled water bottle) and died. However, it does say that "It is used as a general industrial solvent in the manufacturing of nitrocellulose coating, vinyl film, and smokeless powder."

However, I get this feeling that when talking about "a general industrial solvent" they might be confusing MEKP with un peroxided methyl ethyl ketone.

Some of the material safety data sheets did not mention metals, or only mentioned their compounds. But since some cautioned against transition metals in general (as opposed to just their salts), and one mentioned brass specifically, I think the safest assumption (to the extent that making and storing organic peroxide compounds can be called safe) would be to consider MEKP incompatible with brass.

Whether it is compatible with smokeless powder, however, remains unclear to me.

[Edited on 25-1-2019 by C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2]


Thanks for the safety information.

Simoski - 18-5-2019 at 23:15

Having spent hours reading this thread I feel far less excited and a little nervous now that I ordered 1 liter for < $3.

I understand that this is extremely dangerous and can easily kill me.

Anyway I will test the fuse sensitivity aiming for reliable repeatable detonation by absorption into dry wood to start...

Then later with AN:MEKP at 2:1 as mentioned towards the start of this thread.

Simoski - 22-5-2019 at 06:09

The company that I ordered from delivered MEK and not MEKP.

There goes that idea!

johnmay - 22-5-2019 at 22:58

Quote: Originally posted by Simoski  
The company that I ordered from delivered MEK and not MEKP.

There goes that idea!


Well.. Im kinda suprised that you even expected some company to deliver such an explosive to private person in first place.

Regards,
John

underground - 23-5-2019 at 01:48

MEK is not an explosive itself. It can be used for various things.

Ubya - 23-5-2019 at 03:19

Quote: Originally posted by Simoski  
The company that I ordered from delivered MEK and not MEKP.

There goes that idea!


well it's not a surprise given the price ($3/L) and the fact that they shipped it to you. shipping 1L of explosive surely requires lots of paperwork, licenses and money.



tumblr_m44mzvDuVz1rvdh8no1_400.gif - 569kB

Simoski - 24-5-2019 at 13:16

I live in South Africa, it's the wild west of chemistry out here, Nitric acid, sulphuric acid, benzene, ammonium nitrate all available to the general public without a license and that's just to name a few.

So yes I expected MEKP and complained when I got MEK, they apologised, citing a mistake on the advert.



[Edited on 24-5-2019 by Simoski]

johnmay - 25-5-2019 at 07:12

Quote: Originally posted by Simoski  

So yes I expected MEKP and complained when I got MEK, they apologised, citing a mistake on the advert.
]


Lol,
Up in my country the guy with the package would be from security agency.
And nobody cares when you complain from behind the bars :)

Regards,
John

MineMan - 25-5-2019 at 08:31

Quote: Originally posted by Simoski  
I live in South Africa, it's the wild west of chemistry out here, Nitric acid, sulphuric acid, benzene, ammonium nitrate all available to the general public without a license and that's just to name a few.

So yes I expected MEKP and complained when I got MEK, they apologised, citing a mistake on the advert.



[Edited on 24-5-2019 by Simoski]


That sounds amazing! I would move there if it wasn’t for the white genocide and thugs with cell phone jammers going from farms to farm to take land by murder. Stay safe bud!!

twelti - 25-5-2019 at 11:15

I have family there. It can be dicey if you don't know which areas are ok and which are not.

twelti - 25-5-2019 at 11:24

I have family there. It can be dicey if you don't know which areas are ok and which are not.

Pyro_cat - 22-9-2019 at 16:31

Quote: Originally posted by alien14305  
Yesterday I just made 15 extra dollars in tips so i am gonna start to go buy some stuff to make some dynamite. I am going to buy wallpaper glue for the casings and some steel pipe to wrap the casing around when making it. I got the idea of a good safe way to make a detanator safely but i can't soak it into nitrates. Ok i will drill a 3/8 inch hole aboout 3 inches deep into an 10"x8"X6" solid oak block. I will crimp copper tubing shut at one end and the other end put a 1/8" steel rod it to the tube and crimp the other end of the tube around it. This will leave an 1/8" fuse hole. I will put the tubbing into the oak block and take a chemical resistant eyedropper and drip the MEKP into the tubbing through the fuse hole. When I get 1 milliliter into the cap I will then insert the fuse through the hole. I take the finished cap out of the oak block which i think will shield most of the blast if the cap does go off. I then wrap the whole cap in duct tape and help hold the fuse in. I think this will be safe to do.



"Yesterday I just made 15 extra dollars in tips so i am gonna start to go buy some stuff to make some dynamite."

After I was done laughing a bit I have had a smile on my face for a wile now after reading that.

Its sounds perfectly reasonable to me, sounds like a pretty fun way to go spend $15. Just thinking though if you were say that to "normal" (boring) people and their reaction. You are going to go do what ??

I like the idea of shielding but when I read about the oak block though I thought of that video I saw looking at pyro stuff on u tube "splitting logs with flash powder", it didn't take much.

I think you could have two or more oak projectiles if things went wrong.

[Edited on 23-9-2019 by Pyro_cat]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 23-9-2019 at 12:11

The citation is from 2002. But is it pretty funny. THe Oak block etc. Entire is it an absolute mad operation. According description. Any way, we are on the madness pages. Thus is, all OK...:cool:

Pyro_cat - 19-1-2021 at 18:25

And 19 years later

What nasty stinky stuff this MEKP is. Made with HCl got this silver liquid, the oily part that reports with hammer is like Homogenized with the rest of it, no two layers. Haven't done neutralization yet. Maybe the resulting salt will make it float ?

Mekp is a challenging project. I really want to see if what I made works to cure polyester resins. No reason it shouldn't I just like the idea I made it.

Average Joe - 29-1-2021 at 14:04

Quote: Originally posted by Pyro_cat  
And 19 years later

What nasty stinky stuff this MEKP is. Made with HCl got this silver liquid, the oily part that reports with hammer is like Homogenized with the rest of it, no two layers. Haven't done neutralization yet. Maybe the resulting salt will make it float ?

Mekp is a challenging project. I really want to see if what I made works to cure polyester resins. No reason it shouldn't I just like the idea I made it.


It has been several years, but I do not remember anything “silver” about the synthesis. MEKP was always a clear liquid, viscosity similar to vegetable oil, and separated on it’s own, but MEKP is stinky. I would be concerned about contaminants in what you describe. I suggest you inspect your precursors for impurities and consider not making MEKP.

Pyro_cat - 20-2-2021 at 19:35

Quote: Originally posted by Average Joe  



It has been several years, but I do not remember anything “silver” about the synthesis. MEKP was always a clear liquid, viscosity similar to vegetable oil, and separated on it’s own, but MEKP is stinky. I would be concerned about contaminants in what you describe. I suggest you inspect your precursors for impurities and consider not making MEKP.


It looked just like the picture on page 3 when your signed in page 11 if you not.


[img]https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/files.php?pid=163845&aid=8800[/img]


Several days in a graduated cylinder chilled and 5ml of clear thick oily liquid formed on top of the original 30 ml gray silvery stuff that behaved like what should be pure MEKP.

Soaking the end of bottle rocket sticks in it they popped with flame ignition and drops detonated easy with a hammer hit on the test plate.

Same with paper soaked in it.

Probably right my starting MEK was junk but the only photo on the thread also shows gray stuff.

Pyro_cat - 20-2-2021 at 19:47


Long gone now anyway. Adding the gray solution to water and sodium bicarb just made a much larger volume of mess. Looking back and having experimented with the gray stuff seemed like it just needed to be dried out and was mostly MEKP.

It was a fun project even if I didn't conquer it.

Average Joe - 22-2-2021 at 16:02

@Pyro_cat,
The picture you referenced looked to me like it has a cloudy/foggy emulsion of MEKP and the neutralization solution in the neck of the flask. Which, in my experience, would fully separate out into two layers within a few hours.
It's hard for me to say if your "gray silvery stuff" was an emulsion or MEKP with a solid contaminant. Filtering or more time letting the stuff settle out might have helped in determining that. Sorry that I couldn’t have been more help in identifying or determining what caused the gray silvery contaminant.
Your tests were consistent with what I would expect with MEKP.
I would say you were at least mostly successful in making MEKP.
I agree, relatively safe adventures with energetic substances can be a lot of fun.

Pyro_cat - 23-2-2021 at 19:09

My gray stuff did not float even when putting salt in the solution the first time.

I used HCL to make it because after seeing the reaction sulfuric and chlorate sugar it just seemed like better idea.

I read that as you dry things out and water leaves and sulfuric concentrates it can get set things off.

The OP says use sulfuric and no one called it out as wrong and maybe sulfuric pulling water gives a better product.

I am only a few moves away from getting it. I only tried twice and learned from that is my problem is seperating the product from the rest of it,

From my observations so far a centrifuge would have been useful. Took days for normal gravity to put that clear layer on top.

But like you said before who knows how much MEK is in that tin can labelled MEK the people that buy it only care if it dissolves what the label says it dissolves.

I guess if I want to go any further with this hobby its time to get gear to distil and recrystallize reagents.

Next project is flash powder. Got nitrates and peroxides to work chlorates is the next challenge.

Sugar rocket with a flash top.






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