Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Looking over the border: EU-Regulations

Looking over the border: EU-Regulations

Pages: 1 2 3

Rosco Bodine - 7-5-2016 at 09:41

Not sure why everyone thinks the EU is one single entity.

Here in Spain you can go to any supermarket for 20% HCl, Distilled water and sodium hydroxide, all cheap.

At any Ironmongers' you can buy :-
1 litre 98% H₂SO₄ for 5 euros (also at a plumber's shop).
12% sodium hypochlorite (20 litres, 17 euros)

At a Garden Centre you can buy :-
Nitric Acid (min 30 litres, 9 euros)
Phosphoric acid (min 20 litres, 26 euros)
Potassium Nitrate (min 20kg)
Ammonium Nitrate (min 25kg)
Flowers of Sulphur (1 euro a kilo)
Cannabis seeds
Bee Hives
Live chickens

It is Illegal here to keep Bees without a licence, although you can have as many chickens as you like.

In the UK you'd be burnt at an equal-opportunities stake for trying to buy Any of those items !

Seems i can have some guns and ammo as well if i want, same as Switzerland, Germany, France, Austria etc.

(i don't want one because their single purpose it to just kill things)

Good for Spain. Just hope the creeping regulator prohibitionists don't get their hooks into liberty there. The suffocating effect of it is unmistakable when the imposed restrictions arrive. The effect is oppressive and it is a gradual thing where one by one things disappear from shelves.

As for guns, well target shooting involves no killing, but if killing should become necessary for food or survival needs otherwise, guns do have utility just like other useful tools fit for the task. Nobody's opinions changes that utility to nullify that fitness, and even though the most important purpose would be to kill things, there are times when that is precisely the correct action.

XeonTheMGPony - 7-5-2016 at 10:27

Quote: Originally posted by aga

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

Young people of e.g. 2020 ... are put off.

Repression invariably leads to an excess of that (thing:implied)* you wish to repress.

May as well ban Sex or Breathing - people always find a way, because they want to do the things that they want to do.

[Edited on 26-3-2016 by aga]

I blame my parents for why I am so boring, they encouraged and gave me a very wide berth to do what I wanted, alcohol wasn't some evil substance, chem was encouraged as was building mechanics electronics.

So by the time I was 15 I had no desire to "party" drink or do drugs or any such thing, as it was nothing special or interesting, instead I was engineering electrochemicle cells and such

More you say it is bad the more they want to do it. So the choice is simple, have people doing things properly and safely and "Gasp" LEARNING or have people doing things wrong, dangerously and doing damage whilst learning nothing!

XeonTheMGPony - 7-5-2016 at 10:35

Quote: Originally posted by Chem Rage

Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston

At this rate, we'll soon have to resort to isolating everything from nature.
Back to the middle ages.

[Edited on 8-4-2016 by phlogiston]

It is very wrong to paint everyone with the same brush, which is exactly what these blanket bans and restrictions do. How patronising it is to be treated like a little kid who needs Nanny State to keep you safe :mad:

That's becuase we stopped natural selection, when you try to protect the stupid from them selfs we all lose out!

Soon it will be illegal to wipe your rear with out a permit and a safety course!

Herr Haber - 7-5-2016 at 11:22

Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony

Words of wisdom for the weekend. Especially the conclusion because that's when accidents happen !
(Which then of course brings us a harder legislation)

XeonTheMGPony - 7-5-2016 at 12:04

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony

Words of wisdom for the weekend. Especially the conclusion because that's when accidents happen !
(Which then of course brings us a harder legislation)

Indeed it saved me allot being able to ask befor I tried some thing potentially dangerous, part of that is how I learned to all ways check my material compatibility befor making some thing.

When one can actually ask with out fearing being jailed or things taking away from them, they are much more inclined to ask, and with every question is an opportunity to educate!

As they learn and succeed the more they desire to learn more! This is how we make experts, soon we will have barely functioning dunces the way we punish curiosity, and discourage critical thinking.

BJ68 - 7-5-2016 at 21:34

Quote: Originally posted by aga

Not sure why everyone thinks the EU is one single entity.
Here in Spain you can go to any supermarket for 20% HCl, Distilled water and sodium hydroxide, all cheap.

Fine and nice for you, but remember at the postings from woelen....the things can be go bad very fast....and look at the Art 18 of the regulation:

Quote:

Article 18 Review

1. By 2 September 2017, the Commission shall present a report to the European Parliament and to the Council examining:
(a) any problems that have arisen as a result of the application of this Regulation;
(b) the desirability and feasibility of further strengthening and harmonising the system in view of the threat to public security caused by terrorism and other serious criminal activities, taking into account the experience gained by Member States under this Regulation, including any detected security gaps, taking into account the costs and benefits for Member States, economic operators and other relevant stakeholders;
(c) the desirability and feasibility of extending the scope of this Regulation to cover professional users, taking into account the burdens imposed on economic operators and having regard to the objective of this Regulation;
(d) the desirability and feasibility of including non-scheduled explosives precursors in the provisions on reporting of suspicious transactions, disappearances and thefts.

2. By 2 March 2015, the Commission shall present a report to the European Parliament and to the Council examining the possibilities to transfer relevant provisions on ammonium nitrate from Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006 into this Regulation.

3. If appropriate, in the light of the reports referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2, the Commission shall submit a legislative proposal to the European Parliament and to the Council with a view to amending this Regulation accordingly.

So I think you are in a grace period at Spain....and have you cecked the Spanish government sites for new laws regarding this issue?

Bj68

"It's time to start hoarding before TSCA kicks in"

Magpie - 16-6-2016 at 18:03

This is the title of two letters submitted to the editor of today's Wall Street Journal. Here are two excerpts:

"...After all the glowing articles about the bipartisan revisions to the Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA), what this means is that they need to hustle to the nearest home center and purchase a lifetime supply of acetone, MEK, lacquer thinner, etc., as these products will start disappearing from store shelves due to our new enlightenment. I hope you don't need these products in the future. Steve Helmreich, Colorado Springs, Colo."

"Just because a thing is overwhelmingly bipartisan doesn't mean it is right or even good. The unelected "experts" at the EPA and related groups have been given even more power to control every inch of our existence - in the name of helping, of course. Michael Moussourakis, Long Island City, N.Y."

Edit 1:

Here's a paper that shows whats on TSCA's hit list. Note the table. I didn't see much that was of concern to me. I presume that the EPA is only concerned with these chemicals contained in consumer products. Ie, we will still be able to buy chemicals through suppliers like Elemental Scientific, LLC. Please correct me if I am wrong.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-01/documents...

Some chemicals that jumped out at me:

TCE (already impossible or hard to get)
CCl4( " " " " )
benzene
cadmium & Cd compounds
chromium & Cr compounds
barium carbonate (wtf)
naphthalene
DCM

[Edited on 17-6-2016 by Magpie]

[Edited on 17-6-2016 by Magpie]

Brom - 13-9-2016 at 04:22

Saw this on the DHS website.

So it looks like we are going to let terrorism win by letting the actions of maniacs dictate what freedoms we are allowed. Sounds a lot like the reach program in the EU

Magpie - 13-9-2016 at 08:50

I would hate to see the US go the way of the EU, but it probably will eventually.

Some day we are all going to have to make fundamental reagents ourselves from innocuous family friendly precursors.

Let's see where this might go:

1. nitric acid from air, water & electricity
2. acetone from rubbing alcohol
3. hydrogen peroxide from water & electricity (a guess)
4. NaOH and bleach from salt & electricity
5. H2SO4 from sulfur, air, and water

Remember, some congressman wanted to ban sodium bicarbonate as it was useful to drug cooks!

I think they should forbid that asshole from any baked goods made with sodium bicarbonate.

Deathunter88 - 14-9-2016 at 07:18

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

I would hate to see the US go the way of the EU, but it probably will eventually.

Some day we are all going to have to make fundamental reagents ourselves from innocuous family friendly precursors.

Let's see where this might go:

1. nitric acid from air, water & electricity
2. acetone from rubbing alcohol
3. hydrogen peroxide from water & electricity (a guess)
4. NaOH and bleach from salt & electricity
5. H2SO4 from sulfur, air, and water

Remember, some congressman wanted to ban sodium bicarbonate as it was useful to drug cooks!

I think they should forbid that asshole from any baked goods made with sodium bicarbonate.

H2SO4 might have to come from roasting a sulfate salt, sulfur has been banned here as it is a precursor to explosives.

BJ68 - 4-2-2018 at 23:11

a) Overview:
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/crisis...

b)
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-is-new/work-in-progre...

Quote:

An open public consultation has been launched on the dedicated Commission website. The aim is to gather the views and concerns of all interested citizens, authorities and organisations. If you want to contribute to the open public consultation, please submit your reply by 14 February 2018.

Link to the survey:
https://ec.europa.eu/eusurvey/runner/EUexplosivesprecursors

Edit: Have read the survey...heretic question (ketzerische Frage): Can it be that the questions in that survey are only in one direction?

Bj68

[Edited on 5-2-2018 by BJ68]

CobaltChloride - 24-4-2018 at 06:31

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

- a selection of very commonly used pure chemicals (e.g. graphite, methanol)

Graphite and methanol?? So we are saying goodbye to pencils and windscreen fluid??
Anyway, thank God that here in Romania people found a way to evade the EU restrictions: all shops which sell these regulated chemicals only market to professionals and call themselves "professional shops" even though they sell to individuals. For example, naphthalene and hydrochloric acid are no longer in the products they should be (moth balls, concrete etchants) and can't be found in big hardware stores, but you can buy them at these professional shops (called "metalo-chimice") under the chemical name, not the consumer name. The same goes for sodium carbonate, leaded solder, petroleum ether and many more.

DrP - 24-4-2018 at 07:00

Quote: Originally posted by CobaltChloride

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

- a selection of very commonly used pure chemicals (e.g. graphite, methanol)

Graphite and methanol?? So we are saying goodbye to pencils and windscreen fluid??

Presumably that is bulk industrial purchases of powdered graphite that will be banned for the general public.... not pencils, which are still legal as far as I can tell here in the UK. I don't think they have used methanol in screen wash for ages... they use IPA due to the fact it is non toxic.

All these restrictions are for the public's safety and are a good thing in general imo. I think they go to far with some of it.... the new TiO2 classification as a class 2B carcinogen for example is too much... It is based on a test in the 80's where TiO2 was injected into the blood of rats at high doses... the mice got tumours... but you get the same results with any non soluble powder - it isn't TiO2 exclusive. To ban it in paints (which is what they are talking about) is way too far and totally stupid presuming they haven't lied to us for decades about it's non hazardousness.. If you have to put a cancer warning on a tin of low VOC water based paint (which is harmless) then how will people know when to actually take a warning seriously when it really is a carcinogen? - where are all of the paint mixer workers with lung cancers then?.... apart from the smokers there aren't any.

[Edited on 24-4-2018 by DrP]

CobaltChloride - 24-4-2018 at 07:54

I agree with the fact that the public should be protected, but that doesn't mean that even the ones aware of the dangers of the chemical (like us, amateur chemists) should not be allowed to buy it.

I think they also went too far by removing boron salts from shelves (as mentioned above).

Fulmen - 24-4-2018 at 08:46

Quote: Originally posted by DrP

the mice got tumours

If I was experimenting on rats and ended up with mice I would put a warning on that chemical, tumors or not :-)

LearnedAmateur - 24-4-2018 at 09:31

Quote: Originally posted by DrP

I don't think they have used methanol in screen wash for ages... they use IPA due to the fact it is non toxic

My mum’s got a few new aerosol cans of screen wash/ice remover (I don’t drive so I have none of my own) and it definitely contains methanol alongside IPA, ammonia, and ethylene glycol:

https://travisperkins.scene7.com/is/content/travisperkins/Au...

Magpie - 24-4-2018 at 10:43

Have the bureaucrats in Europe all become paranoid cretins? Worse than the ones we have in California?

I used to work in a fine papermill where we made high grade paper for annual reports and advertising in magazines. TiO2 is an excellent brightener and opacifier. We used it by the ton, receiving it in 50 lb bags. It is also used in toothpaste as an abrasive.

I freely buy methanol sold as a gasoline deicer. In Minnesota I had my car come to a complete stop in an isolated area due to ice in my filter. My boss then advised me to add a pint of Heat at each fill up. I don't need it in Washington but it is readily available here also.

[Edited on 24-4-2018 by Magpie]

woelen - 24-4-2018 at 12:25

Methanol still is available here, but only from chemical shops. You cannot find it anymore in hardware stores and other general consumer-oriented shops. The same is true for borates, boric acid and perborates. These disappeared well over a year ago. Again, these still can be purchased from chemical suppliers.

Remarkably, new chemicals are appearing as well. It becomes easier to find oxone and peroxodisulfates. Also all kinds of phosphorus compounds and elemental phosphorus itself (only the red variation) are becoming easier to obtain. So, it is not only bad news over here

aga - 24-4-2018 at 12:32

Last time i checked, it all seemed the same here.

No craziness in either chemical rules, people driving cars into crowds, blowing things up or shooting a lot.

USA & UK are kind of a linked unit, so maybe the US tries out experiments in the UK.

Very glad i left UK for ES.

Magpie - 24-4-2018 at 12:53

I buy sodium borate decahydrate as a laundry aid in 5 lb boxes. It's great for washing your hands after working on greasy car parts.

There's no reason to restrict phosphorus in the US anymore. Those that want to make methamphetamine don't use it. But once a law gets on the books the bureaucrats never take it off. There's hardly any homemade meth, at least where I live. Mexican super-labs make it much more efficiently. So why bother.

aga - 24-4-2018 at 12:57

Sadly over there in the "Land of the Free" they use the meth excuse to make you less free, day by day.

The evidence points to the US Gov being in collusion with the Mexican super labs.

[Edited on 24-4-2018 by aga]

DrP - 25-4-2018 at 02:31

Quote: Originally posted by aga

Last time i checked, it all seemed the same here.

No craziness in either chemical rules, people driving cars into crowds, blowing things up or shooting a lot.

USA & UK are kind of a linked unit, so maybe the US tries out experiments in the UK.

Very glad i left UK for ES.

Spain is full of its own problems... and ex pat Brits. My next door neighbour keeps harping on about how she loves it there and wants to go there to stay.... she says there are too many foreigners here and the UK is sinking... I wish she would just fuck off to Spain too with her ignorant brexiteering and anti foreigner fear mongering. She won't be happy wherever she ends up, she'll always find something to moan about or an immigrant to blame all of her woes on.

LearnedAmateur - 25-4-2018 at 03:43

How ironic, the one complaining about foreigners ‘invading’ the UK wants to become a foreigner herself.

DrP - 25-4-2018 at 04:06

Quote: Originally posted by LearnedAmateur

How ironic, the one complaining about foreigners ‘invading’ the UK wants to become a foreigner herself.

A lot of these Brits abroad are staunch brexiteers that are happy to be immigrants in another country but complain and moan (usually using false statistics or even blatantly invented on the spot ones) about immigrants that are 'coming over here, taking our jobs, spreading TB, raping and mugging, selling drugs..etc' - You get shit in any community - I guess they just pick a scape goat or something - it is depressing. They get VERY angry about immigrants and immigration and anyone (bleeding heart libtards especially) who suggests that they check their supposed 'facts'. They cannot seem to comprehend ANY positives from immigration at all. More people than you think believe all this (mainly because they read it in 'The Sun' or 'The Daily Mail' who seem to delight in spinning headlines to enrage the public).... I have 2 sets of friends and they are both in their own echo bubbles for info - half of them couldn't imagine why anyone could or even would vote to stay in the EU and those that can't comprehend why people would vote to leave unless they are totally racist.

I cant talk to the leavers without being called a Libtard or a bleeding heart that has been brainwashed by University and education, a traitor even and a ****** lover (some of these people are parents and actively encourage their children to get into trouble and to make trouble at school)... and if I even dare to mention the concerns of the right wingers about immigration to try and get some middle ground for the two side to talk on then I get labelled a racist by the left wingers and an idiot for even talking to people who hold these views... more people hold these right wing views than people think, probably because their beliefs are backed up by the news headlines and their mates. A plague on both your houses!

Rosco Bodine - 25-4-2018 at 05:42

Realism ....keeping it real ....where did it go?

Cultural hegemony, what is the new improved "common sense" as taught by political correctness is the only thing on EARTH that will NEVER be regulated.

A better, new improved utopianism brought about by scientism is real progress....isn't it grand....and applying all that enlightenment to eating utensils.... voila ...we are all made into more "civilized" diners...but who really even needs a spork for the genuine menu of "progress" that is one giant size universal shit sandwich?

[Edited on 4/25/2018 by Rosco Bodine]

DrP - 25-4-2018 at 06:25

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine

Cultural "common sense" as taught by political correctness is the only thing on EARTH that will NEVER be regulated.

A better, new improved utopianism brought about by scientism is real progress....isn't it grand....and applying all that enlightenment to eating utensils.... voila ...we are all made into more "civilized" diners...but who really even needs a spork for the genuine menu of "progress" that is one giant size universal shit sandwich?

[Edited on 4/25/2018 by Rosco Bodine]

That fork pic is funny.

I do agree that political correctness goes a bit too far.... but surely it is better if it goes too far rather than not far enough? A bit too far and all get are a few disgruntled right wing bigots.... not far enough and we are back too (or still there as we haven't stamped it out yet) blatant racism and hurting of people who have no choice over how they are just because of peoples prejudices. You might not think it matters... but it matters to the people being hurt.

Rosco Bodine - 25-4-2018 at 06:48

Traditional common sense that is ACTUAL common sense is not "bigotry" ....but that is the mindfuck illusion that has been the brainwashing applied to people to have them "reeducated" to discard what was good sense they had before and substitute the "new improved common sense" that doesn't correct any faulty information that was valued before....but brainwashes acceptance of the currently trending, PC endorsed and directorate approved "Big Lie" that of course serves the dystopianist agenda.

To "guilt trip" people about their non-existent "bigotry" is simply another psychological leverage technique used to persuade people to "revise" and "fix" what was not broken about correct ideas they valued before.

The dystopianist agenda can be recognized easily enough because a forefeiture of individual LIBERTY and/or individual wealth is always a MARKER for what the nanny state / police state is doing and always claiming that such sacrifices for the individual are justified for the "greater good".

The abject general SILLINESS of the "pathological altruism" of psychotic "socialism" is ALWAYS THERE as another marker. It soon becomes ridiculous what is the level of micromanagement inflicted on people's lives by the "thought police" who are proponents and constitutents of a dystopianist madness counted incorrectly for "progress". Group think replaces free thought, and society becomes a hive mind populated by drones, all of them "government issue" like clones from a clone factory.

DrP - 25-4-2018 at 08:12

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine

Traditional common sense that is ACTUAL common sense is not "bigotry" .

Quite. Obviously.

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine

To "guilt trip" people about their non-existent "bigotry" is simply another psychological leverage technique used to persuade people to "revise" and "fix" what was not broken about correct ideas they valued before.
.

It depends on why you are feeling the guilt. I had this when I was younger.... I was quite racist. I believed things about black people that were not true. Was this common sense? no. Was it because I am a racist arse? no. Was it because I had been bought up and taught by my father that blacks did this or that and acted like a or b? Partly. This mass stereotyping, although accurate in SOME cases, is clearly not appropriate to class all people of black skin. Same with homosexuals.... what business is it of mine what anyone else wants to do in their spare time with their bodies? The hatred I had for them was learnt behaviour - behaviour that I became ashamed off and left behind many years ago - I was a Christian back then and I still value the act of repenting from ones sins..... although my definition of some sins have changed.

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine

The dystopianist agenda can be recognized easily enough because a forefeiture of individual LIBERTY and/or individual wealth is always a MARKER for what the nanny state / police state is doing and always claiming that such sacrifices for the individual are justified for the "greater good".

The abject general SILLINESS of the "pathological altruism" of psychotic "socialism" is ALWAYS THERE......

You are definitely loosing me here though... 'Common Sense' would suggest a mixture of liberty and safety, capitalism and socialism designed around whatever is modern at the time. What worked 1500 years ago and was lauded as genius might be seen as barbaric and out of dater now. Looking after the sick and poor is a BASIC part of the Christian belief system - If I was still a Christian I would be ashamed at how many right wing Christians in the USA and indeed other countries champion the removal of the social safety net for the less fortunate. It disgusts me and is, in part, proof that they are not connected to this loving god they spout is so kind. If it were true we would all just get on with the loving and caring and being full of the holy ghost instead of the fighting and bitching about those less fortunate receiving what they haven't earned. Jesus paid all the workers the same rate for the day - those that were late, those that sat about and those that worked hard - take it up with him if you don't like it.

Rosco Bodine - 25-4-2018 at 14:11

Liberty was more highly valued by my ancestors than safety, and I share their "dated" and traditional values as tested and proven correct. I do not value the "new normal" for so many "modernized and revised" things which I reject on the merits for the already well proven Orwellian nonsense so much of it is. The various iterations of the "ministry of truth" have utterly failed to impress me other than to be a target of ridicule and amusement. Much of the worlds "journalism" and institutions of "higher learning" have become "group think collectives" for communal navel gazing.

What goes on for a day does not need sustainability. However what goes on for a long period of time does need to be practical and over a period of time what works and what doesn't work can be identified on its merits.

aga - 25-4-2018 at 14:24

All 'Safety' is an illusion.

Rosco Bodine - 25-4-2018 at 14:50

The "security services" of The State are the gravest threat to Liberty we face.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_de_Molinari

https://mises.org/library/production-security-0

Reboot - 27-4-2018 at 15:26

It's very easy to look at the state as our enemy, the omnipresent father figure ready to spank us for bad behavior. But a far more frightening intrusion of your rights and freedoms would happen without the legal structure of the state giving us clear common standards of behavior and effective enforcement mechanisms.

Besides, the state (in democracies) is ultimately just a reflection of us as a society. It's weird and sometimes flaky and confused because that's what we are. If you don't like what the government is, start campaigning.

Rosco Bodine - 30-4-2018 at 05:32

The present devolution of society towards dystopian atheist (Marxist) politically correct secular "ideology" marketed as modern and advanced "enlightenment" is NOTHING NEW. It is a historical repetition of ERROR that is a manifestation of NIHILISM. Even what the halfwits who are the proponents of such decadence regard as humorous is only twisted and evil. It requires having some intellect in the first place to even have an intelligent sense of humor, and what is popular as humor today is pathological, sick, and as mentally twisted as are the people amused. Nobody having good sense is laughing at contemporary "comedians".

The very same dishonesty, corruption, and violence, and all the same perversions, diseases, mental aberrations, societal, and familial dysfunctions, and lack of individual character and absent aspirations for better, are ALL conspicuous evidences that have absolute parallels and historical precedent in accounts of failed societies and destroyed empires that have ALL been collapsed in self destruction by such decadence that only perverted and moronic heathens would count as virtue. But such absolute MORONS are the first to "virtue signal" because that is simply one more expression and self identification of their absolutely profound CLUELESSNESS.

woelen - 30-4-2018 at 12:05

@Rosco: Don't start again with your whining about evil political correctness. If I see one more such post, then I'll ban you again for some period of time. I am totally done with this :mad:

Rosco Bodine - 2-5-2018 at 05:59

@woelen

What I am posting about is absolutely on topic as a societal and legal issue affecting amateur science.

And what I have described observing as a general trend and huge issue affecting amateur science is a factual and verifiable observation.

There is no OCDD (oppositional compulsive / defiance disorder) psychopathology afflicting me, if that is what you mean by "this".

A righteous indignation causes the disdain (and contempt) I have for the strangling and suffocation of "amateur" chemistry by STATE REGULATORS / "license" and "permit" peddling TAX COLLECTORS who are de facto CHEMISTRY PROHIBITIONISTS. Amateur science is being incrementally taxed and regulated to death as a calculated and deliberate destruction of an individual liberty that is a hobby for many millions of people.

Even if a "majority" of people find that tyranny "acceptable" because they have no personal loss or inconvenience caused by the "safety regulations", many other people who are good citizens are being literally criminalized and having their liberty trampled because of no wrong they have done to anyone, but are being treated as "guilty by association" with persons who are criminals and terrorists.....who should not have been present in society in the first place due to their identifiable pathological and dangerous ideology that is inconsistent with ordinary liberty in what are more advanced and free societies.

The fools errand of trying to "assimilate" followers of an alien, repressive, and violent culture into free western societies is the ERROR needing regulation and "risk management" ...NOT the banning of every material or implement that can be diverted to criminal use by cut throat criminal psychopaths whose presence is the obvious actual problem. The nature of the actual security risk is being misconstrued to avoid "offending" a particular "class" of persons who ARE the danger inherently because of the dangerous ideology they OWN.

Science is being sacrificed on the altar of "social engineering" done by a Nanny State. Simultaneously the real criminals are being accorded special status as a "protected class" and the bargain is one of DHIMMITUDE for those who have lost liberty in that corrupt bargain inflicted on an entire population by a corrupt state.

The "risk management" and "security related" sale restrictions that are continually increasing to "ban chemicals" are attributable to a faulty premise that "society" can be "child proofed" (or idiot proofed) and "safety" can be achieved by an imposition of "regulations" on raw materials of ordinary commerce that can be weaponized by criminals and terrorists.

There is no JUSTICE in compelling free men to forfeit their own liberty in order to accommodate ALIENS criminal tendencies to do murder by misuse of ordinary materials. The ordinary materials are NOT the source of DANGER ....but the ALIENS who have the criminal tendencies are the RISK requiring "risk management".

My analysis on this is correct. Clearly you don't like it....and hey I don't like it either ...but still, my observation and analysis is correct. The Orwellian aspect of the present devolution of society into a thought policed dystopia is also correctly identified, and was predicted not only by Orwell but by many others who have recognized the same "progress" of "civilization" where candor has been steadily suffocated by "thought police" and speaking the truth has become a revolutionary act.

Brom - 2-5-2018 at 06:08

Its sad, but true.

woelen - 2-5-2018 at 07:22

@Rosco: You certainly have a point, and I agree with quite a lot of what you have written in the last post, but what irks me is the agressive tone of the post and the blunt generalization of a whole group of people, which you now call ALIEN.

If you communicate in a friendlier way and clearly distinguish between real terrorists and many other people from other cultures who may not have your ideology or religion, but who are perfect citizens, then things already sound very differently.

I fully agree with you that regulation of all kinds of materials, because of fear of terrorism, is not the way to go. You see it happen now. Less abuse of chemicals for nefarious purposes, but now they use vans or trucks, and in the near future they wil lfind something else which can be used to kill people. We indeed should try to minimize the presence of terrorists, but keep in mind that demonizing a whole group of people or demonizing a complete religion is not what helps. The effect may even be opposite, due to perceived (or real) hatred.

Rosco Bodine - 2-5-2018 at 07:45

Overly diplomatic and sugar coated euphemisms is a "Newspeak" semantics mind game that is involved with thought control meant for achieving behavioral modification. The PC euphemisms that seem or sound more diplomatic don't change the substance of what is being said, but is said differently to tiptoe around the conditioned "feelings" of people practiced at taking offense about something trivial every day.

Once a person has "adapted" to use of all the many Newspeak euphemisms, they are already brainwashed into acceptance of the inherent deceptions that would prevent candor. As a convert to that "enlightenment" then they become volunteer "enforcers" and vectors for the same infectious thought control that has already worked its magic on the converted PC proselyte.

For example the entirely proper term alien has been used for ages...it is proper terminology in legal and common usage and is not a slur of any kind. So are terms like deaf, mute, blind, crippled, retarded .....yet a list of "Newspeak" words that are doubleplusgood euphemisms (see Orwell) have been invented as a PC mind game used to "guilt trip" plain speaking people to achieve "mind control" over them by incorrectly identifying such terms as "insensitive" or "bigoted" ect. 100% Orwellian nonsense is exactly what that Newspeak is.

JJay - 2-5-2018 at 07:51

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine

Once a person has "adapted" to use of all the many Newspeak euphemisms, they are already brainwashed into acceptance of the inherent deceptions that would prevent candor. As a convert to that "enlightenment" then they become volunteer "enforcers" and vectors for the same infectious thought control that has already worked its magic on the converted PC proselyte.

Really? Even Orwell knew better. Try substituting "foreigner" or "primitive" (or "doubleplusbadnonfriend")for "alien" and tell me that what you have written is any less offensive or persuasive. This board is used by people all over the world; it is both crass and tactless to speak against aliens here.

Rosco Bodine - 2-5-2018 at 07:57

If I go across the border into Canada as I have done a few times....I am an alien there.

If a Canadian crosses the border into the U.S. that Canadian is an alien here.

Neither should take offense at that unless they have some mental problem.

Orwell was a Democratic Socialist. What an irony that would be the case since it would seem to be the "trendy" government model that has many admirers here on this board.

Orwell had a sense of proportion sufficient to recognize the absurdity of things taken to a hyperbolic extreme ....and Orwell gave a good bill of particulars about that extreme that would be a dystopia. It is ironic how the things Orwell so accurately described is not recognized as prophetic by others who are of the same general political persuasion as Orwell.

[Edited on 5/2/2018 by Rosco Bodine]

Brom - 2-5-2018 at 09:04

I agree with woelen. I don't demonize entire groups of people or religions. There are always exceptions. But as to the subject of this thread I agree that you can not idiot proof a society by banning potential weapons at the cost of freedoms for the law abiding. They will just use something else.

Vomaturge - 2-5-2018 at 09:17

At a risk of further sidetracking the discussion with non-chemical EU policy, I would like to ask a question. I haven't read this whole thread through, but I read that acetone was on a "toxic list" or something, and was thus regulated. I understand that solvents like toluene and xylene can cause brain and nerve damage with chronic exposure. I know that some halogenated solvents (chloroform, dichloromethane,etc) have their own toxic effects, and some are moderately carcinogenic. But acetone never struck me as being so toxic. Is it as bad as the solvents mentioned above, from a health perspective? Is it considered dangerous because its flammable?

Or is it just being regulated because it is a precursor to drugs or explosives?

Edit:Thanks for the replies! Just finished searching the thread for "acetone," and reading a lot of it. I found
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=23...
and
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=23...

It's probably regulated because it has some utility for making drugs/explosives. Shoulda searched before posting. In any case, these laws now in effect are ridiculous. I doubt they are really cutting into drugs/terror that much (this is the part that might be non-chemistry related discussion). I don't even think they are fixing a pollution problem: most of the e.g. arsenic pollution comes from large companies which will just get a license. So in my opinion this legislation's main effect will be to make things harder for amateur scientists, and anyone else who wants to do things themselves which require chemicals

I would assume they also "watch" other purchases, too. Like if you buy a suspicious amount (hundreds of grams) of sodium bicarbonate, or worse, precursors/equipment for making the illegal stuff, (say, KCl, or a big graphite electrode that could turn it into KClO3) then they probably take note, and either try to find out how you use it, or use the purchase as evidence if something else happens. Even the United States' DEA has a list of "watched," but legal chemicals. I can only imagine the extent of this in other places.

[Edited on 2-5-2018 by Vomaturge]

[Edited on 2-5-2018 by Vomaturge]

CobaltChloride - 2-5-2018 at 09:38

I think it is mostly because it is used in drug manufacture. In Romania it is listed as a drug precursor.

Magpie - 2-5-2018 at 11:06

Acetone is a main precursor in making explosives.

Rosco Bodine - 3-5-2018 at 17:29

Anybody recall a scifi movie called The Mutant Chronicles starring Ron Perlman?

An alien invasion occurred and Earth was conquered by an army of mutants who were created by the aliens from reanimated dead humans that were genetically mutated and mentally reprogrammed to be zombified killers of normal humans. All the newly dead humans would be added to the "reanimation / mutation" manufacturing process that continued producing more and more mutant zombie soldiers.

There could be some food for thought conveyed by that movie.

[Edited on 5/4/2018 by Rosco Bodine]

Rosco Bodine - 6-5-2018 at 06:20

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine

There have been MANY very eloquent historians and leaders whose wise counsel and CORRECT counsel, has simply been ignored by their ostensible "intellectual betters", concerning this matter of danger to liberty, and danger to life and limb, and danger to what is genuinely and HONESTLY by many conclusive evidences a more advanced ideology of Western civilization, more advanced by ANY criteria anyone may wish to measure "advanced civilization" Art, Science, Music, Agriculture, Industry, Engineering, Human Rights,...ect. Churchill, Gladstone and others have EXPLICITLY stated TRUTH in an unvarnished form that has conclusively proven to be reliable and confirmed correct information.

Tact, Respect, Diplomacy are things that certainly have their usefulness for persons trying to be polite. However, an honest analysis and reporting of world history that is a continuum of events that very much includes the present time is NOT something that ought to be deferential and biased by "sensitivity" and "political correctness" so that a "sanitized" and propagandized version of history is a work of FICTION that obscures reality.

History has its bad actors, its butchers, and slavers, its abusers of individual rights and human rights, that have appeared as one form or another of tyrannical murderous oppression, and that would include reigns of terror by violent MOBS acting out "democracy".

Indeed there are very different societies and religions and cultures in different NATIONS around the world, and some of those societies and cultures are absolutely SUPERIOR to others in various ways that would include the extent of individual liberty for the citizens of those nations. Citizens of different nations are in FACT different and are ALIENS when they are present in a different nation from what is their home country. For some societies where the differences are small, the extent of "alienation" is negligible ...but it is still there. For other societies, where the differences are profound and extreme, the "alienation" is likewise EXTREME to the degree that the traveler might as well be from another planet.

That REALITY presents an insurmountable difficulty for "globalists" who are attempting to mix oil and water and use "political correctness" as the liberty destroying emulsifier that will miraculously enable mutually exclusive ideologies to coexist in the same space and in the same nation. That FAILED agenda of globalist utopianists devalues life and decreases liberty for everyone, attempting to accomplish an impossible dream that is a utopianist delusion and fantasy.

Laws and regulations can never make "safe" the world from the effect of mutually exclusive ideologies, where one of those ideologies is hell bent determined to by brute and cruel force impose its despotic domination on another to the destruction of individual liberty. There are many millions of THOROUGHLY WELL ARMED FREE MEN in the world who absolutely reject and refuse that proposition of tyrannical oppression and absolutely will forcibly resist any attempt at such domination. Individual Liberty preexisted ALL GOVERNMENT that would incrementally destroy that freedom until every human is reduced to being a cog in some utopianist wet dream of a "socially just" collectivist shangrila "machine". No FREE MAN is ever going to "submit" to being any part of that dystopianist "borg collective" where Earth has all of its nations and cultures homogenized in a "social justice" blender run by "world government" that would disarm its drone subjects and force upon them the unacceptable "coexistence" of mutually exclusive ideologies that "good global citizens" would be compelled by force to accept.

There was another scifi series called "V" that may be instructive.

Free Men, those millions of Human Beings who value individual liberty as a heritage that is their birthright are NEVER going to be "blissed" into any acceptance of a forfeiture of their right of self defense against ALL CHALLENGERS who may want to explore the FULL POTENTIAL of putting that resolve about retention of individual liberty to the test. There are men who would prefer death to enslavement, and have already decided that matter as an elemental life or death principle. There is a lion who will not be made anyone's pet lap dog but will make a shredded toy and/or meal of any who try that cute trick.

[Edited on 5/6/2018 by Rosco Bodine]

nitro-genes - 6-5-2018 at 09:30

All challengers? Traffic lights included?

Rosco Bodine - 7-5-2018 at 03:43

Hmmm......

Wright-Brothers-Smart-people-Crazy-people-Dumb-people.jpg - 81kB

Albert-Einstein-quotes-Genius1.bmp - 354kB

[Edited on 5/7/2018 by Rosco Bodine]

VSEPR_VOID - 7-5-2018 at 09:37

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

Acetone is a main precursor in making explosives.

They will have to ban egg shells and vinegar if they want to do anything about it.

This is the problem with a society that is chemically illiterate, they believe that peace is just banning one material away. People dont know you make make an explosive device out of almost anything. Politics dont care either because they are in the business of making people feel good.

Rosco Bodine - 8-5-2018 at 05:22

The problem responsible for onerous chemical regulations is NOT "chemophobia".

The onerous regulations are "security measures" (meaning security of THE STATE, and NOT security of THE PEOPLE)

The imperative for such security measures is well established historically as a SIGNATURE "security measure" of TYRANNICAL GOVERNMENT which insists upon having a MONOPOLY on VIOLENCE as an expression of POWER to dominate and control its subjects who are made defenseless, and of necessity then must place reliance upon the same tyrannical government for any personal protection and personal security.

When the individual subject / citizen encounters any violation of their personal security or any trampling of their LIBERTY by a CRIMINAL, the only EFFECTIVE recourse for the subject who has been made defenseless is to summon help from a "state authorized enforcer" who may or may not then intervene to "serve and protect" that subject.

The obvious priority for such a "scheme of government" is that the "security" of the "state authorized enforcer" is higher valued than is the security of the subject "citizen" who is EXPENDABLE as the "cost of doing business" continually paid by a tyrannical society that has DEVALUED its subject / citizens.

No One Rules.bmp - 930kB

[Edited on 5/8/2018 by Rosco Bodine]

Σldritch - 8-5-2018 at 13:14

We are supposed to be mad scientists but scientists none than less, right? Neither philosophy nor morals are scientific. Questioning the nature of political entities through those models is meaningless. Do not ask if states are good or bad but ask why do states exist at all? And maybe we should do that in another thread, not that i am any less guilty.

Rosco Bodine - 8-5-2018 at 16:38

Ph.D. is a Latin abbreviation meaning "doctor of philosophy".....
Latin, Philosophiae Doctor...or Dr.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Philosophy

Philosophy - literally, "Love of Wisdom" , synonyms are Thinking, Thought, Reasoning

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy

Doctor - Latin, literally, "teacher"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_(title)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctorate

"Doctor" is also originally a synonym for "master" as used by an apprentice student

Philosophy of Science

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science

"Scientism"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism

Logical Positivism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_positivism

Science - from Latin, scientia - literally, "knowledge"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

Demarcation Problem - What is or isn't "science"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarcation_problem

Uh oh, here is another one that knows more than they should know, and more than they can know, so what shall we do with this one?

[Edited on 5/9/2018 by Rosco Bodine]

User13579 - 9-5-2018 at 10:49

Quote: Originally posted by Σldritch

Neither philosophy nor morals are scientific

Have you heard of the term 'natural philosophy'? The word 'scientist' is quite a recent invention -- in fact it was proposed as a joke by a natural philosopher! Philosophy of nature, you see? Scientific theories, after all, are not facts per se, but evolving philosophies which are continually being developed through experimental enquiry. In my worldview nothing can be outside of nature, so certainly human morals could be subjected to the same experimental philosophic enquiry. In fact they are in deed, but I can't remember the name of the field. 'Ethology' comes to mind but I think that's an outdated term.

[Edited on 9-5-2018 by User13579]

[Edited on 9-5-2018 by User13579]

[Edited on 9-5-2018 by User13579]

Σldritch - 9-5-2018 at 13:02

It seems we are not talking about the same thing, science to me is a model to make other models which is based on some fundamental assumptions which are (if i can remember correctly):

1. The universe is real.

2. We can affect the universe.

3. The universe has predictable behavior.

From these assumptions we can deduce other things and create better scientific models, the culmination of which is modern science. Philosophy can be considered a early scientific meta model. Theoretically there should be some line of reasoning and experiments that lead to our current models but in reality it is more messy as people are not "perfect". Where the word comes from does not really matter. Of course science can mean different things to different people which you have proven very well though also very redundantly.

The point is: approach politics as a any other problem. Do not make dubious assumptions. What i wanted you to do was research political science for your self because i think people are easier to convince if they research their own sources. Especially politics because it is misleading by nature. You seem to have no such reservations though so ill just recommend you De Mesquita's books on politics.

Considering the scientific theory's roots, would not a philosophy forum be fitting? If there is any place on the internet which could have civilized discussion about such topics it should be here. It is too bad political science is so hard to discuss, it is such an interesting subject.

Rosco Bodine - 10-5-2018 at 03:52

Where any word comes from assuredly does matter.

Actual "science" has much more depth and a much broader meaning than the constrained marginal definition that is a common error of many who incorrectly assert what is actually "scientism" (that is a corrupted Newspeak definition of science) is instead supposed to be "science", however what is actual science has a much broader meaning as valued practical "knowledge".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology

Scientific language makes heavy usage of Latin, and to a lesser extent Greek.

Liberty is a derivative of Latin, liber - "free"

Being free from despotic oppression by government is an important aspect of liberty, to pursue science or art or any endeavor.

To recognize and identify correctly that science or any other pursuit of LIBERTY is being obstructed or prohibited by tyrannical and despotic government as part of some grand "social engineering" that DEVALUES liberty for ALL in order to "improve security".....
is NOT "politics".....but is simply stating what is the FACT being observed.

Those who value "cultural diversity" and "political correctness" as some kind of utopianist "enlightenment" to be prioritized and prized so highly that a great LOSS of individual LIBERTY is simply the FAIR PRICE that must be PAID BY ALL in order to facilitate and accommodate what is a truly INCREDIBLE and PREPOSTEROUS "theory" of utopianist social engineers who literally "bet the farm" that mutually exclusive ideologies can be FORCED to "coexist" .....will happily FORFEIT all of their individual LIBERTY to THE STATE as their "price to be paid" and "ethical duty" to "society".
Those "good citizens" of THE NEW WORLD ORDER will become good little drones in the hive mind collective of PC clones who no longer are able to exercise free thought or free action, because
they have become sycophant adherents in the global PC cult and
every LIE it teaches has become adopted by the BRAINWASHED as their own noblest VIRTUE and HIGHEST TRUTH.

That is the "cultural hegemony" that Antonio Gramsci identified. It is also the Orwellian FACT that is too much upon the entire world as a dystopian reality in the present time. The mechanism by which this dystopianism has been implemented is PROPAGANDA which has instead of being correctly identified as advocacy has been misidentified as "knowledge". So much of what too many people "think they know" is pure propaganda they have incorrectly counted as being knowledge. After all, it is what they were "taught" and "learned" well to "believe", without ever testing or confirming what was complete propaganda and was adopted as their "ethic".

Those who DO NOT accept such "social engineering" are refuseniks who are the individuals who more highly value LIBERTY and refuse to comply with the COLLECTIVE. Any authentic virtue is theirs. Such refuseniks are the PATRIOTS and the honorable men.

Statists and their sycophant hive mind following are actual CRIMINALS of a sort that have been around since the beginning of the world, having the same grand utopianist schemes which have been burned down every time they appear throughout history.

[Edited on 5/10/2018 by Rosco Bodine]

BJ68 - 22-5-2019 at 22:42

New Draft: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/wh...

Please read page 19 number 6 and 7 and have the new list in mind: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/wh...

Updated Links for the outlook:

CoRAP
https://echa.europa.eu/information-on-chemicals/evaluation/c...

RMOA
https://echa.europa.eu/understandng-rmoa

PACT
https://echa.europa.eu/pact

bj68

Herr Haber - 23-5-2019 at 03:12

It's time to stop being a member of the general public and make a business.

I suppose a Youtube channel about science and experimentations would be enough. The licenses for the public will certainly be even harder to obtain than in the UK.

BJ68 - 24-5-2019 at 01:27

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

It's time to stop being a member of the general public and make a business.

I suppose a Youtube channel about science and experimentations would be enough. The licenses for the public will certainly be even harder to obtain than in the UK.

Can be a solution, but with a business, the question is, what restrictions will be made from the authorities?

E.g. storage of chemicals or that your equipment is "state-of-the-art" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_the_art#Tort_liabilit... which is mostly not the case, if you use "used" equipment.
I know from some chemistry boards people with home laboratories which are very nicely equipped, they have GC, HPLC, fume hood, fire proof storing cabinets and other stuff. But none of that labs will be approved from the authorities, if one of that guys registers a business, because it is not "state of the art".

The other point is that if you have a business the whole REACH-Complex and here in Germany TRGS https://www.baua.de/EN/Service/Legislative-texts-and-technic... kicks in....included inspections from TÜV, fire police, factory inspectorate (Gewerbeaufsichtsamt). Will be a difficult way and honestly I have my doubts that authorities will accept this and not to try to find reasons to shut down the business forcefully, because for them this is a red rag.

bj68

Herr Haber - 24-5-2019 at 05:00

True, but I am interested in the status of "independant researcher" which is a blanket word here.
I've been looking and looking for a catch and found none.

Maybe other countries have similar status.

woelen - 24-5-2019 at 07:27

If these new regulations become active, then of course they are quite annoying for doing experiments, but they do not make things impossible. Most annoying is the limit of 15% H2SO4. For many experiments, however, this concentration is OK, and if you need higher concentrations for a specific experiment you can boil down a little of the acid and increase its concentration. You can even go to 90+ % concentration if you have good pyrex glassware. By boiling down 100 ml of acid you can make nearly 10 ml of such concentrated acid.

These rules prevent someone making large amounts of explosives from gallons of 96% H2SO4 or 65% HNO3, but they still allow me to do experiments on a small scale (milliliters) with concentrated acids because I can make these from the dilute acid. Making a little concentrated HNO3 is possible from boiled down H2SO4 and e.g. KNO3.

The only really difficult thing is nitromethane. We should accept that experimenting with this will be beyond reach of most home chemists.

Of course, I would prefer the system they use in the US, where people can buy certain chemicals (like KClO3 or KClO4), but only limited quantities (IIRC max. 1 lb per year). If limits of e.g. max. 1 liter per year would be used for the concentrated acids, then things would be easier for genuine hobbyists, but as I said above, the regulations do not make experimenting impossible, they only make it less convenient. A really determined hobbyist does not stop experimenting

I have a double feeling with this kind of regulations. In an ideal world we would not need such things, but recent history has proven that unfortunately there are mad people around who use all kinds of materials for killing people. If a certain regulation makes this very hard or impossible, then that is a good thing. Unfortunately there is some collateral damage in the sense that people who use these materials for legit purposes are affected as well and experience inconveniences in doing what they like.

phlogiston - 24-5-2019 at 15:34

Considering that the concentration of sulphuric acid in lead-acid batteries is around 30% (w/w), a 15% limit is surprising. Anyone with a car would be in violation. The previous limit was 40% IIRC, which made more sense in that respect.
I find the 4% limit on nitric acid especially inconvenient myself.
I enjoy refining precious metals, and 4% is useless for dissolving base metals or making aqua regia. I now have resort to alternatives, which result in much more (toxic) waste and higher expenses.
As Woelen says, an annual limit on any chemical seems like a great system. It restricts access to dangerous quantities of certain chemicals, yet allows for smal scale experimentation. But the EU seems to have chosen this path, it expect it will be extremely difficult to accomodate this in future legislation.

BJ68 - 27-5-2019 at 04:45

The problem with boiling down or concentration of weak acids, is the fact, that (so far I see) there is no exceptional regulation for small amounts and according to the new draft there should made no exemption see:

Quote:

(6)Members of the general public should not be able to acquire,
introduce, possess or use those explosives precursors at concentrations at or above certain limit values. However, it is appropriate to provide for members of the general public to be able to acquire, introduce, possess or use some explosives precursors above that concentration limit for legitimate purposes, only if they hold a licence to do so.

(7) Licences may only be provided for substances in concentrations not exceeding the upper limit set by this Regulation. Above that upper limit, the risk in relation to the illicit manufacture of explosives outweighs the negligible legitimate use by the general public of these explosives precursors, for whom alternatives or lower concentrations can achieve the same effect.

That means your lab book, your notes and even your products can used against you...

See how it works e.g. in Austria:

Quote:

Members of the general public are not allowed to acquire, introduce, possess or use those explosives precursors at concentrations above the limit values.

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/wh...

If you get caught in Austria the fine will be minimum 500 Euro and the items (plus equipment) will be sized and destroyed.

Edit: and if you have a firearm licence (or other licences), you should think twice....

BJ68

[Edited on 27-5-2019 by BJ68]

[Edited on 27-5-2019 by BJ68]

[Edited on 27-5-2019 by BJ68]

woelen - 27-5-2019 at 09:38

I boil down small quantities and do experiments on a ml-scale. Do you really think that someone, who makes 10 ml or so of concentrated acid from standard available materials and uses that up in small-scale experiments will get caught by police?

Similarly, I made a small quantity of KClO3 from KCl by means of electrolysis (see my webpage on a miniature chlorate cell, useful for making chlorates on a mini-scale of tens of grams on a desk, not suitable for making kilos of it). I still have some 40 grams around of this.

I also have HClO4 and NH4ClO4, which can be purchased, although they are expensive. When I use these in experiments, such as making transition metal salts with a non-coordinating counter-ion, then I do not throw away the waste. I add some KCl and then KClO4 precipitates, almost quantitatively. It's a pity to discard the precious perchlorate, hence my recycling. It also is better for the environment to give the waste a second life, and it can be used for some little fun demos. At the moment I think I have a few tens of grams of recycled KClO4.

I recycle quite a few chemicals, giving reagents a second life in non-critical but funny demos, e.g. for kids, in order to make them fascinated about the subject of science and technology.

[Edited on 27-5-19 by woelen]

BJ68 - 27-5-2019 at 21:24

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

I boil down small quantities and do experiments on a ml-scale. Do you really think that someone, who makes 10 ml or so of concentrated acid from standard available materials and uses that up in small-scale experiments will get caught by police?

Similarly, I made a small quantity of KClO3 from KCl by means of electrolysis (see my webpage on a miniature chlorate cell, useful for making chlorates on a mini-scale of tens of grams on a desk, not suitable for making kilos of it). I still have some 40 grams around of this.
[Edited on 27-5-19 by woelen]

Directly not, if you think at "caught in the act", but if you get a "home visit" with search warrant e.g. because you triggered a red flag with some chemical orders and they find nothing, then it´s very likely that they use this things to justify the search warrant otherwise they have to pay compensation.
Know one case in Germany, where the guy got a house search. because he had ordered HF over the internet. They found nothing illegal, but they insisted to scan his computer for pirated material (illegal software) to get some accidental discoveries, which can be prosecuted in Germany.

The other point is, that I have a bad feeling with this lists (and the other things REACH and Co.), because they will be expanded and the supply of chemicals more and more restricted for the general public and this tendency has to be combated.

bj68

Schleimsäure - 16-6-2019 at 14:56

With the burocrats in Brussels in 10 years you will need a license to buy table salt.

Pumukli - 17-6-2019 at 01:46

"this tendency has to be combated"

Yeah.
And who will do the combatting and how?

Herr Haber - 17-6-2019 at 04:08

Quote: Originally posted by Pumukli

Yeah.
And who will do the combatting and how?

hiperion42 - 6-10-2019 at 07:50

Quote: Originally posted by BJ68

New Draft: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/wh...

Please read page 19 number 6 and 7 and have the new list in mind: https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/wh...

The draft was dated 04/2018 and it would apply 1 year after publication.

Any guess on the effective implementation timeline?

greetings

[Edited on 6-10-2019 by hiperion42]

BJ68 - 28-12-2020 at 13:11

At least the german authorities made a complete ban for all precursor chemicals, WITHOUT the option for private citizens to get a permit to use higher concentrations which are called "3. Upper limit value for the purpose of licensing under Article 5(3)". That means for nitric acid the highest concentration is 3%, for sulfuric acid 15%.....see "2. Limit value" in
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

Here are the two drafts in german:

http://dipbt.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/19/235/1923565.pdf

Addition changes: http://dipbt.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/19/241/1924122.pdf

The "interesting" § is §13....in short: The preparation, use, possession of the chemicals with higher concentrations as mentioned in Point "2. Limit value" can be penalized with financial penalty or imprisonment up to 3 years.

bj68

valeg96 - 28-12-2020 at 13:26

The next step is going to be a EU-wide ban on compounds with free chlorine, like NaClO, Ca(ClO)2, ClO2 and so on. I can bet my ass on that; bleach is already virtually impossible to find in Germany.

After all, you can make chlorine bombs with those.

Funny thing is, a good chemist could probably turn anything into a dangerous device. Just quietly blow a bunch of chromatography silica gel into a building's ventilation system and enjoy everyone getting lung cancer after 30 years. Will they ban sand for personal use? I guess it's going to be hard to recall all european beaches before 01/01/2030.

[Edited on 28-12-2020 by valeg96]

dawt - 30-12-2020 at 02:48

Quote: Originally posted by BJ68

Here are the two drafts in german:

http://dipbt.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/19/235/1923565.pdf

Addition changes: http://dipbt.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/19/241/1924122.pdf

The "interesting" § is §13....in short: The preparation, use, possession of the chemicals with higher concentrations as mentioned in Point "2. Limit value" can be penalized with financial penalty or imprisonment up to 3 years.

bj68

Shit.

teodor - 30-12-2020 at 04:21

What I don't see and what I expect to see in the documents is reference to some analysis how this ban can impact society. They say "we eliminate such and such dangers" and I can find references to actual cases of terrorism if I have a patience/use a search and follow links. It is good. But it is "pros" section. Where is "cons" section in the analysis? Of course everybody will vote to support "pros" if he don't see any "cons".

And it looks unprofessional like the people who made the document have no idea what is it about.

What I see is just some trend to ban chemicals . By some reason they like to ban chemicals. Everybody respect you if you ban. You don't know what to do with terrorism in the country but surely you know that people don't need any chemicals.

[Edited on 30-12-2020 by teodor]

BJ68 - 30-12-2020 at 05:50

Quote: Originally posted by teodor

Where is "cons" section in the analysis?

It´s very easy....please read (7) in https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...
which notes: [...]For some restricted explosives precursors at concentrations above the limit values provided for in this Regulation, there exists no legitimate use by members of the general public.[...]

But e.g. in the book "Colouring Bronzing and Patination of Metals A Manual For Fine Metalworkers, Sculptors And Designers" you fill find recipes which are using potassium/sodium chlorate, ammonium nitrate, hydrigen peroxide for this purpose.....

So the phrase "there exists no legitimate use by members of the general public" is simply a lie.....and if you take ohther things etching of copper or making silver nitrate for photography you need concentrated acids and that is a legitimate use for the chemicals....even for members of the general public.....

valeg96 - 30-12-2020 at 07:28

Quote: Originally posted by teodor

And it looks unprofessional like the people who made the document have no idea what is it about.

Since when the average bureucrat in Bruxelles is professional, competent and/or educated? Except for a few folks, most of them are elected among the very same ignorant scum that fills our national parliaments.

The EU has brought us amazing environmental, food safety, work laws, stuff that many national governments would have never bothered to deal with (or, think about the utter lack of workers' rights in the US compared to here). But also a load of bullcrap.

[Edited on 30-12-2020 by valeg96]

Fyndium - 30-12-2020 at 08:49

Still, the restrictions are trivial to circumvent by simply getting a business number. I don't see this as a big deal as in most countries it should be just filling out a single paper. I just guided a couple of friends getting one for their online gaming stuff.

Someone from Germany cited that they need some sort of business chamber approval, but I highly doubt that just getting a simple company with vat number filing would need such a mess. Perhaps, distributing hazardous materials could need some special stuff, but at least in here it only concerns the storage and handling of them, but the quantities are way beyond any reasonable measure to stress with. For sulfuric acid, for example, the limit is 5 tons.

In UK, if you establish an official license for some sort of hazmat, unscheduled visits may result, but likely purchasing the stuff as company should not be an issue without such licenses, as they concern the public.

And then there are these certain suppliers that can get you most anything in decent prices, probably only excluding pharmaceuticals and energetics. There will be new grey market for these reagents for various uses, since they now command a much higher price.

[Edited on 30-12-2020 by Fyndium]

BJ68 - 30-12-2020 at 08:57

Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium

Still, the restrictions are trivial to circumvent by simply getting a business number. I don't see this as a big deal as in most countries it should be just filling out a single paper. I just guided a couple of friends getting one for their online gaming stuff.

No....read this:
[...]
(11)
The distinction between professional users, to whom it should be possible to make restricted explosives precursors available, and members of the general public, to whom they should not be made available, depends on whether the person intends to use the explosives precursor concerned for purposes connected with that person’s specific trade, business, or profession, including forestry, horticultural and agricultural activity, conducted either on a full-time or part-time basis and not necessarily related to the size of the area of land on which that activity is conducted. Economic operators should therefore not make restricted explosives precursors available either to natural or legal persons who are professionally active in areas in which the specific restricted explosives precursors tend not to be used for professional purposes or to natural or legal persons who are engaged in activities that are not connected to any professional purpose.
[...]

That will change....

bj68

valeg96 - 30-12-2020 at 09:28

Whatever will be eventually decided to be the procedure to obtain a permit, company number or not, it will most likely, at some point in the process, go through and/or be approved and/or checked and/or recorded and/or archived by some local law enforcement agencies. And this, everyone, is a FACT. We're not talking about a permit to buy chemicals listed as herbicides, we are talking about a permit to build chemicals listed as "explosive precursors".

Getting a license to buy and use explosive precursors in italy is rather easy (with a tough exam) but you're basically submitting all of your information to a commission of police officers, army officers, and chemists/engineers.

By requesting any permit to use explosive precursors you're indirectly putting yourself under the spotlight. Which means your name will be filed, somewhere in our country's archives, along with the words "explosives", "precursors", "person that wants to blow stuff up".

This is what I hate about this approach to problems the EU has chosen. It forces people to submit themselves to checks, permits, exams, trials, to expose yourself to bureucratic and legal trouble, while people who actually want to blow up things and sympathize for ISIS won't be affected by any of this. We all know how a citizen can be made hopeless by any public agency. It just takes a pissy public servant for your documents to be rejected, you can all imagine what a pissy police officer can do when they get your paperwork for such permits.

[Edited on 30-12-2020 by valeg96]

[Edited on 30-12-2020 by valeg96]

Fyndium - 30-12-2020 at 18:11

Quote: Originally posted by BJ68

No....read this:

I'm quite aware of that. The official purpose is of course the stated business entity, for example metal treatment like anodizing, etc. I see the forms to be filled as a reverse instructions how to do things. You answer whatever they want you to answer to get what you want. Fight bureaucracy with their own rules. If you file an insurance report, you first read the instructions(terms of the insurance contract) how to phrase it.

Generally, the best approach to minimize risks of getting listed is to purchase reasonable amounts (like 5-25L, for a company it is more common to purchase 25L canister(s) or 200L drum instead of bottles) at once, and leave it sit for long time, even over years. If someone is watching, they will show up quickly, at most within few months. I have used this approach a couple of times over the years, purchasing a lot of stuff at once, putting them away and waiting over a time if someone comes asking. If one would be doing something that is actually risky, it would be wise to use a middleman for purchases.

Another exception is if some sort of scandal happens, for example after the norway case farmers were raided because of ordinary fertilizer purchases - when something happens, similar stuff must be prevented at all costs to save the face on politics, and then they can go through these lists for any potential risks whatsoever and excuse warrants and other unnecessary legal stuff, so if something hits the news, it's time to check that everything is in order in case of surprise visit.

What I fear in the future is as data processing is getting more and more easier and people's privacy is narrowing, it is much easier to get on some sort of lists of potentially hazardous person, only because of being interested in some sort of non-common thing that can have cross-reference into something that is considered a threat. At the same time, legal powers are constantly increasing so that eventually even studying or possessing mere information can be used as an excuse for warrant or other legal action. If you do anything else except work, eat and watch tv, you can have an unscheduled visit because of something.

I'm not getting into the Orwellian dystopias here, but the general consensus has seem to be in the last decade or two is that basically everything needs to be banned or controlled, and god I hate the concept "ordinary honest people don't need x". There are few if none cases where individual rights, freedoms or privacy have been actually increased. Actually, the spirit has been that saying those three words out loud is starting to sound silly, because no ordinary honest people actually NEED rights, freedoms or privacy.

[Edited on 31-12-2020 by Fyndium]

teodor - 31-12-2020 at 04:33

The most important impact which I see is the new limitation of rights to do scientific experiments / research without registration/accreditation etc. Our opponents can ask "what are those important (for our society) discoveries which were made by individuals in the last 10 years?". But I will ask another question. "Where you will get new scientists in 10-20 years in your county? Are you ready to import those scientists abroad, from the countries which now wisely don't limit selling of H2SO4 and HNO3 for home-scientists? Or would you prefer to buy products/technologies made in other countries?"

[Edited on 31-12-2020 by teodor]

NaK - 15-1-2021 at 01:48

Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium

god I hate the concept "ordinary honest people don't need x".

The most annoying thing about it is that it's not even true! People used to mix their own RC fuel from methanol, nitromethane and oil. Hunters use hydrogen peroxide to bleach antlers. Ordinary people need these chemicals as much as we do

[Edited on 15-1-2021 by NaK]

Fyndium - 16-1-2021 at 07:15

Just as it happens, there were huge national headlines how police discovered a potential bomb-maker because he had a couple of these precursors mentioned. I just thought, what kind of headlines it would cause when they bust any long-term amateur chemist, who generally have a stockpile extending far beyond all the way from A to Z.

I'm mostly afraid what happens to that valuable property, does it have any protection from confiscation? Amateur can have several thousands of € worth of equipment, and it all could be gone in a blink of an eye, when they discover you have ordered super-corrosive caustic soda which could do a lot of damage if misused.

dawt - 26-4-2021 at 05:49

Here's another regulation that seems to have gone unnoticed by most of us: Red phosphorus is now a precursor under Regulation (EC) Nr. 273/2004, placed in category 2A alongside acetic anhydride. That means owning, using, buying etc. is still legal, but transactions are limited to 100 g per year (!) without a registration. Now the good part is that it's only a registration, so no governmental approval is necessary. However, at least where I live it costs € 90 and needs to be renewed periodically, and more importantly my usual suppliers don't seem to offer red phosphorus anymore.

pneumatician - 31-5-2021 at 17:55

the war against borax is not new...

https://nexusmagazine.com/?s=boron&v=04c19fa1e772

https://nexusmagazine.com/product/the-borax-conspiracy/?v=04...

Pages: 1 2 3