Gun Propellants: Single, Double and Tripple based

Something about size

Maybe very slow evaporation is the way

Quote: Originally posted by specialactivitieSK

Maybe very slow evaporation is the way

Quote: Originally posted by dettoo456

I don’t currently have the exact numbers with me at the moment but in terms of sensitivity and synthesis EGDN edges out NG in that it’s safer to produce and initiate when you want it to but is much more volatile and degrades with the presence of impurities more readily in storage if I remember correctly. OB% is also slightly higher with NG too which really matters for propellants when taking burn rate catalysts and stabilizer OB%’s into effect. So NG is better than EGDN for performance but worse than EGDN for safety reasons; pick your battles with that one. PGDN’s synthesis is similar to other nitrate esters and although I don’t have the numbers right now, I’m pretty sure its mechanical sensitivities are at least lower than EGDN (and by proxy lower than NG) from the addition of an extra CH3 group. OB% is of course lower as well in PGDN. https://ipo.lukasiewicz.gov.pl/wydawnictwa/wp-content/upload... ^ Some useful info PGDN’s vapor and storage behavior. “Nitrate Esters Chemistry and Technology” is a good book for finding info on nitrate esters and their properties although some info gets lost in translation from mandarin. The “big players” (if you will) like BTTN and TMETN will always outshine the simple esters and if you have some spare malic acid and Pt hydrogenation catalysts, or propionaldehyde and formaldehyde then you can try with them but other than that the classic NG is proven and capable for most propellants applications so I’d recommend it over EGDN or PGDN.

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests

Yes I have learned about the volatility of EGDN and PGDN (PGDN is slightly less volatile than EGDN) but NG's volatility is non-existent.

From personal experience, NG volatility may be considered TRIVIAL in regards to all going away under decent storage conditions- But several splitting headaches I've experienced say it does exist.

The couple of tries I made at classic low freezing dynamite mixtures long, long ago with the method of nitrating mixed glycerin + EGDN gave me a formidable headache very quickly during the final processing with dry ingredients, I'm quite sure it was vapors rather than skin contact, I wore gloves and was careful- At least it went away faster than an NG headache too.


BTTN and TMETN?

BTTN = 1,2,4-Butanetriol Trinitrate





TMTEN = Nitropentaglycerin; 1,1,1-trimethylolethane trinitrate




[Edited on 9-2-2022 by Bert]

[Edited on 9-2-2022 by Bert]

Second attempt at slow evaporation. I need to find suitable kitchen utensils with a completely flat bottom.

Quote: Originally posted by specialactivitieSK

Second attempt at slow evaporation. I need to find suitable kitchen utensils with a completely flat bottom.

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests

Those look really good. If they can be more stable and higher performing than NG

If you are talking chemical stability then just overdo the washings.
Wasnt a bottle made by Ascanio Sobrero himself regularly tested for decades or a century showing no degradation ?

If you want more usability, a few strands of NC will make a gel. There, you might consider another source of possible degradation assuming home made NC will always contain tiny amounts of acid.

The other thing is: you're trying to get a bigger bang. NG, EGDN are pretty easy to set off. Before the mercury fulminate detonators black powder was used. Urbanski books basically teach you that the better the initiation, more complete is the reaction (More CO2, less CO essentially better vod etc.).
So a good number 8 is better than a firecracker even if they both work.

Not only that, but even for something easy to initiate (NG) you still need confinement and diameter. Urbanski has charts with pipes of different materials, diameters, wall thickness.
Pretty interesting stuff as is all his material.

His section on the manufacture of all the different types of double and triple based propellants is quite extensive. But what to expect from someone who writes about cellulose alone for 60 pages

Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests   Those look really good. If they can be more stable and higher performing than NG If you are talking chemical stability then just overdo the washings. Wasnt a bottle made by Ascanio Sobrero himself regularly tested for decades or a century showing no degradation ? If you want more usability, a few strands of NC will make a gel. There, you might consider another source of possible degradation assuming home made NC will always contain tiny amounts of acid. The other thing is: you're trying to get a bigger bang. NG, EGDN are pretty easy to set off. Before the mercury fulminate detonators black powder was used. Urbanski books basically teach you that the better the initiation, more complete is the reaction (More CO2, less CO essentially better vod etc.). So a good number 8 is better than a firecracker even if they both work. Not only that, but even for something easy to initiate (NG) you still need confinement and diameter. Urbanski has charts with pipes of different materials, diameters, wall thickness. Pretty interesting stuff as is all his material. His section on the manufacture of all the different types of double and triple based propellants is quite extensive. But what to expect from someone who writes about cellulose alone for 60 pages

Sorry, when I mean stability sometimes I am referring to sensitivity. NG is really sensitive stuff and I would rather work with similarly powerful but less sensitive stuff. There's a reason why I spent so much time trying to make NHN and CHP to use as primaries.

Also remember on the PDGN thread you mentioned an author called Conklin? I couldn't find his book, and I would also like to see Urbanski's book. If you got links to where I can download them I would be eternally grateful.

Especially if he has such extensive instructions on making double-base and single-base powders. I do want to make those for rifle, shotgun, and handgun rounds. I would love to go to the range and fire off a 100 rounds or so of ammo using homemade propellant and primers, that would be epic!

Edit: https://archive.org/details/Chemistry_and_Technology_of_Expl...

Is this the Urbanski you're talking about? He has a whole series which I will download all!

https://www.amazon.com/Chemistry-Pyrotechnics-Principles-The...

and is this the book about Conklin you were talking about? Ones that has the priming compounds?

[Edited on 2-11-2022 by ManyInterests]

Quote: Originally posted by ManyInterests

I would also like to see Urbanski's book. If you got links to where I can download them I would be eternally grateful. [Edited on 2-11-2022 by ManyInterests]

Quote: Originally posted by dettoo456

@ManyInterests Butanetriol can be formed via reduction of Malic Acid w/ Pd/C although any reducing agent capable of carboxylic acid reduction should do. https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10562-021-038... https://zero.sci-hub.se/6469/c7aee14b783dd92a5ece2a658f608b7...

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

https://www.amazon.com/Coghlans-Camp-Heat-2-Pack/dp/B000FY21... ..... Fuel really contains diethylene glycol. Great message. Thanks. DEG is super fuel for NaClO4. Details: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4076 Demonstration of efficiency here from 0:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CTB9k1l15A

Orange???

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

For security reasons (YouTube) the exact composition was not stated. Another thing is that the composition can be quite variable. As stated in the patent. Exact tested compose: NaClO4 ....(OB + 52.3) .....74 parts DEG.......( OB - 150.8)............................................26 parts dH2O.......(OB zero).............................................. 10 parts ..... (variable 8 - 15) water acrylate pigment (orange, OB -160 cca)......1 by part of weight.........(variable 0.0 - 2.... green, blue, red, yellow) Guar gum...( OB-115 cca)......................................2 parts.....(variable 0.0 - 2) Variable tested compounds: glass microballoons 2, sodium chlorate 3, Uncompatabile with any Aluminium. Bubble H2.

Unfortunately, using calcium nitrate in composition was not tested. Is possible that acetic acid catalyse better properties of guar gum as binder.
But also not tested. Measurement in cavity showing density 1.6 g/cc. Not 1.7. Composition is castable at 80 C without guar gum. Repeatedly. Composition, respectively his surface is partially hygroscopic. It was observed. Ferocene was not tested. Yes, was tested different acrylic pigment colors. Yellow, red, green, orange. Interest: This dry (any color) acrylic pigment create
with NH4ClO4 pretty explosive mixture at ratio AP 75 / color 25. Without change of nice color of pigment.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pigment+to+wall+color+paint&...
Maybe colors works as catalyseur of shockwave. (no confirmed, no measured)
But confirmed is better binding effect with acrylic colors. (acryl is binder itself)
Yes, different colors is possible use as identificator.
Else composition can looks: NaClO4 75, DEG 25, liquid pigment (red from link) 11, dH2O 4, guar gum 1. In of part by weight. 20g sensitive on No.8, confirmed.


[Edited on 10-1-2023 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

Is it slightly exotic composition, but should by works. Ba(ClO4)2 with OB + 38.06 is also soluble in acetone (OB - 220.3) ethanol OB - 208.7 on CO2. In acetone is soluble (as binder) nitrocellulose, camphor, rosin. In ethanol is soluble camphor , rosin. Testing mixture can be: 1) Ba(ClO4)2 80 + 20 ethanol, final OB - 11.29 on CO2. 2) Ba(ClO4)2 80 + acetone 20 .........final OB - 13.61 on CO2. 3) Ba(ClO4)2 75 + ethanol 20 + rosin 5 ..........final OB - 26.39 on CO2 4) Ba(ClO4)2 75 + acetone 20 + nitrocellulose/12,4N/ .... 5 ........final OB - 17.3 on CO2 All mixtures looks no hygroscopic. Problem can be evaporation of solvents. Any way, interesting idea with Barium perchlorate. It seems , that adding Alu powder is possible.

The trip can be plugged with some related thread. Thanks, Bert. Maybe after testing described mixture (on BaP base) can be serious reason create a new thread....

[Edited on 11-1-2023 by Laboratory of Liptakov]