Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Short question / quick answer - Thread

Short question / quick answer - Thread

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DennyDevHE77 - 30-11-2023 at 20:42

The oddities of plastic explosives. Recently I made plastic (on PETN) on polybutylene once again. 90\10. If earlier this composition was like a very steep dough with high density (1.6 g/ml), now the plastic explosive turned out to be very easily compressible, at the same time it crumbles easily and has low density (1.3). I have not seen this before, even 95/5 compounds were easy to crumble but hard to compress.

The fractional composition is very different, from manually ground into flour, and the smallest crystals obtained by rapid infusion of hot acetone into water, to quite distinguishable crystals.

So far, my only assumption is that most of the PETN is just too fine and a coarse fraction should be added, but I could be wrong.

Has anyone ever encountered anything like this? When the plastic looks like kinetic sand?

greenlight - 1-12-2023 at 06:09

How have you stored the polyisobutylene? Away from heat, moisture and direct sunlight?
The only thing I can think of at the moment considering the PETN has been prepared the same way is that the PIB has somehow gone bad.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 1-12-2023 at 08:05

Denny.....I think you made a mistake when mixing the PIB : Oil ratio. Because PIB is usually added as a 10% solution of PIB in gasoline. But the oil is added as a 100% solution. A very common mistake is that someone mixes 1 part PIB and 1 part oil. In that case, the effect you described will occur. Flowing lump...... :cool:

DennyDevHE77 - 1-12-2023 at 09:28

I use mouse glue as a source of polymers. Its composition is polybutylene - 80.83% , polyisobutylene - 9.60% , cyclosan - 9.57%. What the latter is, is not clear, perhaps they are low molecular weight polymers, or a trade name for a crosslinker.... But I think it is just low molecular weight polymers to give the finished product (glue), more liquid consistency. Or maybe it's really some kind of oil with sebacic/phthalic acid esters. As far as I understand, production of low molecular weight polymers is not economically feasible, it is much cheaper to dilute high molecular weight ones. The result will be the same.

I don't use gasoline, as I mix it with my hands, like kneading dough, and then roll it out with a rolling pin. And I don't use oil, because I think that would make it really snotty.

Right now, to illustrate my words with a photo, I decided to make a small sample of plastic. But I took an old tube of glue. And this time, the same PETN came out with a normal plastic explosive. Much harder, requiring a strong hand pressure for molding. I measured the density, it came out 1.56.

Apparently, I got a defect. And the new mouse glue is apparently too liquid.

In any case, I now have to either check the glue after purchase, or try to heat it so that all the volatile from it evaporated ....

I still want to put a second coarse fraction of crystals into the plastic. But the problem is that the crystals in it are 0.25-0.5mm. I'm afraid that such large crystals can trivially not detonate.....

[Edited on 1-12-2023 by DennyDevHE77]

MineMan - 3-12-2023 at 23:41

Quote: Originally posted by DennyDevHE77

I use mouse glue as a source of polymers. Its composition is polybutylene - 80.83% , polyisobutylene - 9.60% , cyclosan - 9.57%. What the latter is, is not clear, perhaps they are low molecular weight polymers, or a trade name for a crosslinker.... But I think it is just low molecular weight polymers to give the finished product (glue), more liquid consistency. Or maybe it's really some kind of oil with sebacic/phthalic acid esters. As far as I understand, production of low molecular weight polymers is not economically feasible, it is much cheaper to dilute high molecular weight ones. The result will be the same.

I don't use gasoline, as I mix it with my hands, like kneading dough, and then roll it out with a rolling pin. And I don't use oil, because I think that would make it really snotty.

Right now, to illustrate my words with a photo, I decided to make a small sample of plastic. But I took an old tube of glue. And this time, the same PETN came out with a normal plastic explosive. Much harder, requiring a strong hand pressure for molding. I measured the density, it came out 1.56.

Apparently, I got a defect. And the new mouse glue is apparently too liquid.

In any case, I now have to either check the glue after purchase, or try to heat it so that all the volatile from it evaporated ....

I still want to put a second coarse fraction of crystals into the plastic. But the problem is that the crystals in it are 0.25-0.5mm. I'm afraid that such large crystals can trivially not detonate.....

[Edited on 1-12-2023 by DennyDevHE77]

I don’t know.

dettoo456 - 6-12-2023 at 11:37

If the material is acting like kinetic sand you probably have too low viscosity/too much liquid-like material instead of rubbery solids in your mix. Also, dropping the particle size will probably help to make your PBX more malleable as it’ll increase the surface area on which the binder (PIB rubber) can adhere to. High MW PIB can be hard to find, especially in consumer products and the rat glue probably isn’t even high enough MW. One source of PIB that I found might work is the glue/adhesive tape on steel drum (like 40 or 55 gal) lids. It’s used to hold the rubber gasket/seal to the lid. If you pull the gasket off you should be able to see it.

C4 used to use EXXON Vistanex which has a really high MW - even higher than any BASF PIB. The PBX mainly relies on high MW rubber loadings with mineral oil (or some low viscosity PIB) and DOS to give malleability.

dettoo456 - 11-12-2023 at 11:36

Quote: Originally posted by dettoo456

If the material is acting like kinetic sand you probably have too low viscosity/too much liquid-like material instead of rubbery solids in your mix. Also, dropping the particle size will probably help to make your PBX more malleable as it’ll increase the surface area on which the binder (PIB rubber) can adhere to. High MW PIB can be hard to find, especially in consumer products and the rat glue probably isn’t even high enough MW. One source of PIB that I found might work is the glue/adhesive tape on steel drum (like 40 or 55 gal) lids. It’s used to hold the rubber gasket/seal to the lid. If you pull the gasket off you should be able to see it.

C4 used to use EXXON Vistanex which has a really high MW - even higher than any BASF PIB. The PBX mainly relies on high MW rubber loadings with mineral oil (or some low viscosity PIB) and DOS to give malleability.

Pardon my earlier post, the adhesive used to hold gaskets in 55gal drums is actually likely Styrene-butadiene. The styrene-butadiene itself can still be used in PBXs though, it just needs a suitable solvent.

MineMan - 12-12-2023 at 01:04

I thought silicone worked well? Wesson smith used it

dettoo456 - 12-12-2023 at 13:10

I believe Wesson smith used HTPB and/or lithium grease in his formulations but he may have mentioned silicone before. Silicone can be used but it will cure and you’ll be left with a rubbery puck instead of a plastic material. Also, the issue with lithium grease is that it doesn’t have any tack/binding ability, only plasticizing ability.

Styrene, HTPB, PIB, Viton, and even something like asphalt are the only real choices for a good PBX since they provide both plasticizing and binding ability on their own (high MW polymers need an oil though - to lower viscosity).

DennyDevHE77 - 1-1-2024 at 07:21

Do you think it is possible to grind PETN in a coffee grinder as follows. Mix PETN and, for example, sugar in a ratio of 20 to 80. We grind it in several steps (as the mixture gets noticeably warm when grinding for a long time), and then just dissolve it in hot water, all the sugar goes into the water, and the PETN is filtered out.

Do you think such a mixture can detonate at all?

If anyone has played with PETN like this before, please write back (you survived, right?).

dettoo456 - 1-1-2024 at 11:30

Don’t blend any explosive in a coffee grinder. Insensitive oxidizers and fuels (kept separate of course) can be ground; i.e. KNO3 or Al. If anything, a slurry of PETN in water may be run in a ball mill at low speeds but definitely not a coffee grinder. PETN may release oxygen and other nitrogen oxides at higher temperatures when being physically broken down, these can oxidize the reducing sugar and potentially cause a deflagration or detonation. Not to mention, if the seal between the cutting blade and the inside of the grinder isn’t tight enough, some powder may fall in and make direct contact with the grinder’s motor and internal circuit, potentially causing a fire, and/or a detonation from DDT.

PETN crashed out via the anti-solvent method (Acetone or alcohol into water) should yield plenty small enough crystals. If that doesn’t work, try to buy a TLC sprayer and spray a solution of PETN onto a cooled sheet of something like PTFE, then carefully scrape off the dried powder.

Plenty of methods to yield small particle EMs exist, but the mechanophysical methods are usually the least safe.

[Edited on 1-1-2024 by dettoo456]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 2-1-2024 at 01:38

dettoo has truth....Methode acetone or alcohol / water provide plenty small crystals itself (agglomerates) . Maybe you can use stainless sieve 1x1 mm. For bigger parts. In water bath you can PETN slowly crushed thru sieve under water level..... :cool:

DennyDevHE77 - 5-1-2024 at 05:07

Thanks for your previous replies, I still don't think petn would explode at a 20 to 80 ratio, but the fact that it could start decomposing doesn't make me happy, because that's a loss of yield.

But here the following question has arisen, how to make up optimal ratios of nitric acid (57%) and phosphorus pentaoxide for distillation? It would seem that it is not easier, just take the molar ratios of the reaction. But this way is obviously not optimal, because during distillation pyro and meta phosphoric acids will be formed, which pull water even stronger than sulfuric acid, so in the end the amount of phosphorus pentaoxide can probably be significantly reduced. But I have no idea how to calculate that.

dettoo456 - 5-1-2024 at 15:30

P2O5 will dehydrate HNO3 all the way to N2O5, which isn’t even needed for PETN or any other aliphatic nitrate ester. You can use either WFNA or NH4NO3/H2SO4 for PETN and you won’t need to waste P2O5.

Metaphosphoric acid (obtained from aggressively heating H3PO4 at around 500C until white fumes are emitted and a gel is left over) can dehydrate H2SO4 to SO3/H2SO4 but I haven’t seen the same reaction demonstrated with HNO3 -> N2O5/HNO3. You can try to do this, but IMO it’s a waste if you have access to nitrate salts, H2SO4, and/or 69% HNO3. The Metaphosphoric acid dehydration pathway is only useful if you have already high concentration mineral acids and need close-to-anhydrous acids; which most people don’t. Plus, if you can get P2O5 for cheap, you’d likely be able to find NH4NO3 as well, and that’s much more useful in EM synthesis.

DennyDevHE77 - 6-1-2024 at 01:09

Well, I have access to NH4NO3, but I use it most often as a component of mixed explosives. Sulfuric acid is relatively cheap to me, but it is sold sub-accountably. Phosphorus pentaoxide, like nitric acid (58-70%) is sold absolutely freely, although P2O5 is three times more expensive than sulfuric acid. Of course, if I could get tens of liters of sulfuric acid, I would not ask myself this question, but I can only get tens of kilograms of phosphorus pentaoxide, and sulfuric acid is more limited for me.

Yes, P2O5 dehydrates nitric acid to N2O5, but only anhydrous, if it is an azeotrope (68%) then water will be removed first, either directly or the resulting N2O5 will react with water.

DennyDevHE77 - 8-1-2024 at 11:55

Guys, could someone please point me to the critical diameters of cast ETN, TNT, and picric acid? I found only for TNT, and that, in different sources it is indicated from 25 to 40 mm.

OneEyedPyro - 13-1-2024 at 07:44

Quote: Originally posted by DennyDevHE77

Guys, could someone please point me to the critical diameters of cast ETN, TNT, and picric acid? I found only for TNT, and that, in different sources it is indicated from 25 to 40 mm.

ETN is 8 to 10mm depending on who you ask. I can't really say about TNP but given its higher power and sensitivity I'd guess lower than TNT. I remember seeing a diagram where pressed picric acid was used as a booster in impact fuse assemblies for small mortars by some country back in WWII (France maybe?). In any case, the diagram showed the booster portion being relatively small in diameter, maybe 20mm.

DennyDevHE77 - 28-1-2024 at 20:19

Quote: Originally posted by OneEyedPyro

ETN is 8 to 10mm

I'm a little surprised. pentolite (50% PETN, 50% TNT) has a critical diameter of 6.7 mm. On the other hand, pentolite is not homogeneous in its consistency, so maybe this has an effect.

Sir_Gawain - 29-1-2024 at 16:32

Small irregularities such as bubbles and cracks greatly increase the sensitivity of an explosive. Also, my EBW detonators have a 6.4 mm ID with pure ETN, and they definitely go high order.

OneEyedPyro - 30-1-2024 at 14:22

Quote: Originally posted by Sir_Gawain

Small irregularities such as bubbles and cracks greatly increase the sensitivity of an explosive. Also, my EBW detonators have a 6.4 mm ID with pure ETN, and they definitely go high order.

I've made little caps with pressed ETN and SADS in those stirring straws you get with coffee or at a bar with mixed drinks. They're maybe what, 2.5mm inner diameter? Too small for a standard visco fuse to fit inside.
I still got a full detonation every time, but I only made several. Had I tried dozens I'm sure some would have failed. Had the straw been 20 meters long instead of 2cm long the detonation would have certainly fizzled out before reaching the end.

ManyInterests - 12-3-2024 at 14:01

I have a question about storing liquid explosives such as nitroglycerine, ethylene glycol dinitrate, propylene glycol dinitrate, and diethylene glycol dinitrate.

Is it safe to store such material in PET bottles? The same bottles that water and soda is stored in? I plan on makying DEGDN since it is safer to handle than NG and also even less volatile (from Urbanski's books), but is hygroscopic, so drying it and storing it to stop any moisture absorption will mean I will need to stop it in a semi-open bottle in another container. Does it need glass or will any plastic suffice?

dettoo456 - 12-3-2024 at 14:51

I definitely wouldn’t store in glass, simply due to the risk of shrapnel in a DDT situation (though rare). If you dissolve it in something like DCM though, glass might be alright as long as you vent it every once in a while.

If you store pure, HDPE should work. It is pretty much the standard for storing dry EMs and would likely be fine with liquids. I couldn’t find much info relating to storing EGDN, but, on page 7 of the attached doc, the author mentions potential issues of HDPE relating to interactions of nitrate esters w/plasticizers.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/AD0778207.pdf

I’d test at small scale before storing anything >1g, just in case.

ManyInterests - 12-3-2024 at 20:24

I never intend to store anything but pure. But if storage is an issue, then I will make as needed.

underground - 27-3-2024 at 10:19

Does Calcium Cyanate (CaOH and Urea reaction) and Hydrazine Sulphate produce semicarbazide ?

[Edited on 28-3-2024 by underground]

Nemo_Tenetur - 2-4-2024 at 06:57

Anyone here with carbodihydrazide synthesis experience? I require a larger quantity as precursor for different energetic materials and I don´t want to buy it because I´m a cheapskate. Fisher scientific sell it for 450 Euro per 500 gram, that´s a ripp off.

There are different routes, phosgene as precursor is out of question. Cyanuric acid and Propylene carbonate are mentioned in patents as better yielding and purer product than urea, but the latter is unbeatable cheap (about 100 euro / 50 euro per kilo versus less than 2 euro per kilo for fertilizer grade).

The yield ist not decisive for me, but the purity (or more precise, the ease of purification) of the final product. The available information is pretty sparse about purity and purification with respect to the different routes. So input and comments about the different routes are welcome. I have enough glassware, fume hood, two stage vacuum pump etc. and 80% hydrazine hydrate in stock.

dettoo456 - 2-4-2024 at 07:25

The propylene carbonate route may yield propyl carbazate impurities, so an excess of N2H4 and long rxn time would be required. But I’d say that’d be easiest method. Dry Hydrazine Sulfate & NaOH can be refluxed in n-propanol or isopropanol to extract the Hydrazine, then that propanol solution can be decanted and refluxed with propylene carbonate while distilling off the excess solvent. I haven’t heard of the cyanuric acid route though.

I also know a Russian supplier who has carbohydrazide for 2400₽/kg, but I don’t know how sanctions are where you live, and their payment provider isn’t very secure. I’ve had to cancel a debit card due to fraud payments after a purchase from them in the past, even though my order arrived fine to me in the US - it was Red P that cleared customs too

. I’ll send the info via U2U if you’re interested.

Nemo_Tenetur - 2-4-2024 at 09:22

Thank you for fast reply and information. There are plenty sanctions here in the EU and try to import something from Russia at present time is like asking for trouble, at least will raise a big red flag.

Additionaly, there are so much overhead costs and paperwork associated with such a transaction that I´ll avoid it whenever possible. About 20 years ago I´ve bought an exotic amine from TCI in Japan. I´ve paid additional 550 Euro for air freight, tax, hazmat fee, ATLAS fee etc.

underground - 2-4-2024 at 13:13

Quote: Originally posted by Nemo_Tenetur

Anyone here with carbodihydrazide synthesis experience? I require a larger quantity as precursor for different energetic materials and I don´t want to buy it because I´m a cheapskate.

What do you have into your mind. You can buy it from ali for a relative good price

Nemo_Tenetur - 4-4-2024 at 14:05

I have no experience with ali (baba or express?) and I´m not sure if such a parcel with white powder (hazmat) will raise a red flag at the EU border. Do they ship in compliance with dangerous goods regulations?

Trashcanman - 4-4-2024 at 15:09

Quote: Originally posted by Nemo_Tenetur

I have no experience with ali (baba or express?) and I´m not sure if such a parcel with white powder (hazmat) will raise a red flag at the EU border. Do they ship in compliance with dangerous goods regulations?

A few years ago I bought 3 americium ionization chambers from aliexpress.
Those things have radiation warnings on them and I think those packages were opened after crossing the EU border because the packages looked as if someone cut them open and sealed them again. I don't know what will happen if some overmotivated customs officer opens a parcel with white powder that was sent from china xD.

But that's just my two cents

Yorty2040 - 15-4-2024 at 17:47

What adhesives resist 95% NM/5% Ethylenediamine PLX?

dettoo456 - 15-4-2024 at 20:14

What do you mean by adhesives? Are you trying to gelatinize PLX with a polymer? If so, that might cause some issues since NM could simply dissolve a wide range of polymers and ethylenediamine is a fairly aggressive base that could attack esters & olefins.

Yorty2040 - 15-4-2024 at 21:16

I might need to glue the blasting cap in place, and need a glue that can withstand contact with PLX. If there is no such glue, I'll need to get creative with solder, which will present its own issues.

dettoo456 - 16-4-2024 at 11:25

Sorry, I don’t think there’d be a clear answer to that query.

You’ll probably just need to test on a small scale to figure out the best glue or somehow mount a fitting with plastic screws to hold a detonator in place.

dettoo456 - 16-4-2024 at 11:28

This inert version of a binary mix (https://inertproducts.com/product/texpak-binary-explosive-se...) uses a custom molded case to partially surround the detonator.

So you might be able to just tape your cap directly to the bottle of PLX and achieve full detonation.

Yorty2040 - 29-4-2024 at 17:37

Has anyone done any work on the nitration of hydantoin? The dinitramine looks like it might make an interesting energetic.

There are papers about the use of 5,5-dimethyl dinitrohydantoin as a nitration agent for arenes, but the synthesis involves the use of triflic anhydride, which is a bit pricey.

I reckon that the nitrate salt of hydantoin, plus acetic anhydride, ammonium nitrate, and fuming nitric acid, might form the dinitramine, but I can't find any references for the dinitration of unsubstituted hydantoin.

dettoo456 - 30-4-2024 at 07:47

Mononitration at the 1 position likely wouldn’t be too difficult but the dinitration would definitely prove harder due to how bulky those carbonyls are. And the product (either mono or dinitramine) probably wouldn’t be too stable. Nitrourea compounds and related nitroamides are not known for their fantastic hydrolytic stability; they tend to hydrolyze very quickly even at rt and in neutral conditions. Plus, pure hydantoin isn’t very commercially available. BCDMH is, but it’s still expensive on its own. And Ac2O is hard to get as well.

A better use for hydantoin could be through di-oxidation (if possible) and subsequent oxidation to just the dinitroimidazolidine. But hydroxylamine is expensive too.

Yorty2040 - 30-4-2024 at 13:36

I think hydantoin can be made from glycine hydrochloride and potassium cyanate, via the Urech hydantoin synthesis. But if the product of the dinitration hydrolyzes rapidly in water that would be a problem. Do you think MeCl2 could extract the product from the nitration mixture?

dettoo456 - 1-5-2024 at 17:20

DCM will dissolve nitric acid very readily, though I don’t know how soluble the hydantoin is in DCM either. And it’s not that it might hydrolyze in a water solution, but likely in trace amounts of water and/or acid. It doesn’t seem like a very good EM candidate from a price, stability, or ease of manufacturing perspective.

dettoo456 - 9-5-2024 at 07:13

Although there doesn’t seem to be much info on it, the detonation velocity (from the few sources I’ve seen) of TEGDN is around 2000m/s. This seems extremely low considering that EGDN is 6600m/s and DEGDN shouldn’t be much lower than that.

Does anyone know why TEGDN is apparently so weak? Apart from its low OB%, it doesn’t make sense to me.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8154001/

clearly_not_atara - 9-5-2024 at 10:08

Extending the oxyethylene chain not only decreases the oxygen balance but also the density.

dettoo456 - 15-5-2024 at 07:39

Has anyone noticed some papers describing odd synthesis methods for EMs? The paper linked below describes using a 1:1 molar ratio of AN to Erythritol in an excess of H2SO4 to prepare ETN, but there should be at least a 4:1 ratio of AN to Erythritol, to properly convert all of the AN to HNO3 in-situ and all hydroxyl groups to nitrates, correct?

[Edited on 15-5-2024 by dettoo456]

Attachment: freye2020.pdf (3MB)
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[Edited on 15-5-2024 by dettoo456]

Yorty2040 - 17-5-2024 at 09:05

Anybody have a good synthesis of 2-imidazolidinone? The wiki says ethylene glycol and urea, but it doesn't say how it's done. Is it as simple as mixing them and boiling off the water, or is an acidic or basic catalyst required?

Most of the literature is for the ethylenediamine+ethyl carbonate procedure, which is less accessible to the amateur.

EF2000 - 17-5-2024 at 09:30

Quote: Originally posted by Yorty2040

Anybody have a good synthesis of 2-imidazolidinone? The wiki says ethylene glycol and urea, but it doesn't say how it's done. Is it as simple as mixing them and boiling off the water, or is an acidic or basic catalyst required?

Most of the literature is for the ethylenediamine+ethyl carbonate procedure, which is less accessible to the amateur.

2-imidazolidinone is also called 1,3-ethyleneurea, right? So, it appear that this article is what you are looking for: Ethyleneurea. II. Syntheses From Ethylene Glycol or Ethanolamine and Urea (or Carbon Dioxide and Ammonia) by Carl E. Schweitzer.

Attachment: schweitzer1950.pdf (440kB)
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Yorty2040 - 17-5-2024 at 18:03

Thank you! Unfortunately that synth looks like a PITA with the high pressures and temperatures, but it's still a good find.

BTW, is ammonium hydroxide basic enough to deprotonate ethylenedinitramine and form a salt, or will only alkaline metals do? I can't find a good literature value for EDNA's pKa in water or I'd answer myself.

[Edited on 18-5-2024 by Yorty2040]

Yorty2040 - 20-5-2024 at 08:47

Does anyone have any knowledge of nickel (bis-ethylenedinitramine) diperchlorate?

dettoo456 - 20-5-2024 at 09:00

Didn’t read it fully, but this may help:

[Edited on 20-5-2024 by dettoo456]

Attachment: palopoli1988.pdf (1.7MB)
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Yorty2040 - 20-5-2024 at 11:42

So it seems a bis compound isn't possible with nickel, at least via simple methods.

Yorty2040 - 24-5-2024 at 17:40

Does anyone have any information on melamine diperchlorate? Solubility, handling, decomposition temp, sensitivity, shelf life, etc?

Precipitates - 24-5-2024 at 20:43

Quote: Originally posted by Yorty2040

Does anyone have any information on melamine diperchlorate? Solubility, handling, decomposition temp, sensitivity, shelf life, etc?

I could only really find this article on Melamine Diperchlorate Hydrate.

I assume reasonable solubility, not ridiculously sensitive and relatively stable.

[Edited on 25-5-2024 by Precipitates]

dettoo456 - 28-5-2024 at 08:08

Has anyone carried out a destructive nitration procedure on a ketone before? I couldn’t find much information on them; it seems Russian chemists were messing around with the principles and kinetics in the mid 90s, but those journal entries are very hard to find, let alone translate.

As far as I can tell, it’s basically the same conditions as for the preparation of Nitroform from Acetone (or from the dehydration of IPA and subsequent nitration). Carbonyls, mainly ketones but apparently carboxylic acids as well, undergo decarboxylative nitration to yield the trinitromethyl or dinitromethyl derivative at the alpha position relative to the carbonyl.

This polynitromethyl product though, can be generated by the action of WFNA/H2SO4 with the ketone at 0C, and Hexanitroethane can even be prepared like this in up to a 75% yield from the terminal-trinitro ketone (authors reported using trinitropentanone, though I believe this was a mistake, and trinitrobutanone might have been used instead).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250556009_ChemInfor...

This abstract does not provide much insight as to the conditions (molar equivalent, addition rate, extraction), and I couldn’t find the article in the Russian Org Chem journal.

In short, is it plausible that this reaction could be applied to something like MEK, to yield 1,1,1-trinitroethane?

Yorty2040 - 14-6-2024 at 17:44

So methazonic acid (2-nitroacetaldoxime) can be produced by the base-catalyzed self-condensation of nitromethane, followed by acid workup.

Is there any info on using sodium perborate + glacial AcOH to convert it to 1,2-dinitroethane? The procedure should work, but the devil (and yield) is in the details of the procedure and subsequent workup.

dettoo456 - 14-6-2024 at 20:14

I’m assuming you’re referencing this paper (linked below) for the oxidation with perborate. As you mentioned though, the preparation will suffer in yields with the scope being so wide (small chain aldoxime already with a nitro substitutient compared to mainly aryl ketoximes reported being used).

A more sketchy method to yield 1,1,2-TRInitroethane could be the ponzio reaction; NO2 or N2O4 in ether or a suitable polar nonprotic at low temperature).

Or, some other, cleaner oxidizer like oxone or H2O2. Though, in any case, including the Perborate/GAA method, oxidation of the aldehyde to carboxylic acid and oxime to carbonyl is probably the reason for such low reported yields.

[Edited on 15-6-2024 by dettoo456]

Attachment: Oxime Oxidation to NO2.pdf (159kB)
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Yorty2040 - 17-6-2024 at 16:22

What's the technical, physicochemical explanation for why complexing the oxoacid salt of a nitrogenous base with a transition metal typically increases sensitivity compared to the uncomplexated salt?

[Edited on 18-6-2024 by Yorty2040]

dettoo456 - 23-6-2024 at 13:44

The acidity of the acid itself may contribute to instability (the free H+). Or, since the main decomposition pathway of energetics is based on BDEs (bond disassociation energies) of different groups and bonds on a molecule, if the oxoacid has a lower BDE than other groups in the complex (ionic bonds between the metal and anion), it could kickstart a decomposition process. C, O, and N intermediates may also simply be easier for a group like ClO4-, NO3-, etc to oxidize than the metal itself too. OB% factors in to this as well, along with perhaps higher densities of the materials due to packing of the nitrogenous oxoacids in the complex’s lattice; such higher densities can affect sensitivity too.

Fluorite - 30-6-2024 at 05:24

Can hexamine undergo hydrolysis with sodium hydroxide to form sodium formate, ammonia and methanol?

dettoo456 - 3-7-2024 at 17:56

It’d likely form ammonia (or more likely urea) and formaldehyde (the formaldehyde quickly decomposing to formate), in a reverse reaction to the manner in which hexamine itself is prepared.

A controlled hydrolysis may yield (mono, di, or tri)methylamine.

I doubt the conditions would be anywhere close to reducing enough to reduce formaldehyde or formate to methanol.

[Edited on 4-7-2024 by dettoo456]

solo - 4-7-2024 at 16:03

..how to mono aminate 1,5-Dibromopentane....solo

dettoo456 - 16-7-2024 at 17:16

Explosion welding/cladding is usually carried out on thin metal sheeting (no greater than 1” or 25mm) with minimal explosive used per sq in (<50g in most cases, and low power EMs like ANFO at that).

Would there be any way to feasibly weld 2” (50mm) or thicker mild steel with much larger quantities of explosive or higher VoD explosives?

As the size of the EM charge itself is increased, I’d assume a kicker charge design might be able to increase the total energy transferred to the witness plate from the flyer plate. But as the EM performance rises, and brisance along with it, I’d be worried about the flyer plate just being shattered or shock hardening to the point that it’d be too brittle to weld to the witness.

For context, I have lot of thick steel bar scrap and am too cheap to buy an anvil.

UndermineBriarEverglade - 30-7-2024 at 11:01

Do I need to purify monkfruit sweetener for use in ETN? I'm not able to buy pure erythritol online or find it locally. I have Lankato brand, ingredients erythritol and "monk fruit extract" (mogrosides). They don't publish an exact percent, but their website says that monkfruit is 200x as sweet as sugar and erythritol is 70% as sweet. For the mix to match sugar, this would imply 99.6% erythritol. 1.5g of crud per pound of sweetener.

If I want to avoid nitrating mogroside V, how do I get it out? Can't find solubility figures for it.

[Edited on 2024-7-30 by UndermineBriarEverglade]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 30-7-2024 at 21:53

If I were faced with the same question, I would do the nitration of 2g Lankato as is. The behavior and returns of ETNs are very well known. I would determine the usability of Lankato based on the differences in the behavior of the final product. Yes or no.... :cool:

.....Only my opinion, not more.

dettoo456 - 1-8-2024 at 11:42

Most food grade erythritol is pure enough for direct nitration. If the ingredients are just “Erythritol” then you’ll be fine. The small impurities are likely silica dust or some other agent to prevent clumping and/or hygroscopicity.

UndermineBriarEverglade - 1-8-2024 at 12:59

LL, I am considering it. I would like to store the ETN and I'm nervous about impurities causing deterioration. Easier to test immediate sensitivity characteristics. dettoo, the second ingredient is "monk fruit extract". Unfortunately I can't find food grade erythritol in my region and I'm not able to purchase it online.

Now that I think of it, one more simple question. ETN becomes much more sensitive over the melting point, so you must be extremely careful when meltcasting. When recrystallizing ETN, so putting it in solution but it's below 61C, do I need to take the same level of precaution?

dettoo456 - 2-8-2024 at 08:23

ETN in solution (Acetone, IPA, and/or EtOH) at the solvents’ bp can be dangerous if spilled on a hot surface - which is why a water bath is recommended. Though it isn’t nearly as sensitive to shock, friction, etc. as the pure melted ETN.

Monk fruit extract in and of itself shouldn’t present any problems in nitration. It is primarily erythritol stereoisomers with small impurities of other polyols, so no real concern is warranted IMO.

UndermineBriarEverglade - 4-8-2024 at 20:40

Nitrated 9g of "Lankato". Unfortunately I got <35% yield (ETN is still damp). More simple questions:

Does anyone have solubility figures for ETN in IPA?
Do US hardware stores carry methanol anymore? Are there options besides small HEET bottles?
Is there a way to gauge nitration progress? Using the nitrate salt method with KNO3, I ran it for 2 hours at 5C with continuous stirring.

Sir_Gawain - 4-8-2024 at 21:31

Quote: Originally posted by UndermineBriarEverglade

Do US hardware stores carry methanol anymore? Are there options besides small HEET bottles?

Methanol can be distilled from windshield wiper fluid. Usually the lower the temperature rating, the more methanol. Also, most “denatured alcohol” is about 50/50 ethanol/methanol which can easily be separated by distillation.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 4-8-2024 at 22:35

If you have yield 5g final pure dry ETN (from recrystallization proces), is it pretty good yield. If you used method H2SO4 + KNO3 + 9g Lankato...... :cool:

With pure reagents HNO3 / H2SO4 is yield usually 18g from pure 9g E.

charley1957 - 5-8-2024 at 03:26

I just ordered methanol from Amazon. I’m using it as a solvent for the extraction of a plant alkaloid. It came in 1L plastic containers. I think I got 8 of them. Price wasn’t too bad IIRC.

greenlight - 7-8-2024 at 08:10

Quote: Originally posted by UndermineBriarEverglade

Is there a way to gauge nitration progress? Using the nitrate salt method with KNO3, I ran it for 2 hours at 5C with continuous stirring.

Nitration is a pretty instantaneous reaction which is evident by the ice bath required for ETN. Forming bonds releases energy which is why you notice a temperature increase upon erythritol addition to mixed acids.
You will probably notice as you near the end of the additions that the temperature fluctuates much less. The majority of your product is fully reacted at this time. You will probably still have a small amount that is undernitrated and this is why you have the warming step for PETN for example before crashing into ice. The reason you xan warm this mixture at the end is because the majority of the reaction had already occurred. Try applying any warmth at the start and you will have a certain runaway.

Also, different nitrations require different conditions and baths.
For example, C-nitration (TNT, Trinitrophenol) usually involves heating and then more heating to get subsequent nitro groups attached.
O-nitration (PETN, NG) generally is done with no heat on ice and can usually be done with weaker nitric.
N-nitration (HMX, RDX) is generally done cold as well but usuallY only with highly concentrated nitric acid and no sulfuric.

That's just the basic gist of it, your 2 hours at 5 C sounds plenty. You c9ukd bring to room temperature with stirring before crashing too if you want.

UndermineBriarEverglade

7-8-2024 at 10:27

Thanks. Next time I'll nitrate the same length, but take it out of the ice bath and let it come up to room temp before crashing. After a couple days drying with silica gel my yield appears to be 32% which is far below the 70%, 60% I have seen described for the nitrate salt method.
I attempted to purify my 93.2% drain cleaner sulfuric acid by adding hydrogen peroxide to make piranha solution and then boiling until the azeotrope, but wasn't sure I boiled it long enough. I added my acid as if it was 93.2%, hoping that if all went well it would be in excess. Next time I will measure the concentration or just use it as received.

9g erythritol C4H10O4 122.121 g/mol
- 0.0737 mol (call this "E")
67.059g potassium nitrate KNO3 101.10324 g/mol
- 9 * E = 0.663 mol
- I wanted an excess of KNO3 to avoid undernitration. Dugan recommends 8 mols per mol erythritol. But I see some people using the minimum 4? Nitrates are the most difficult ingredient for me to obtain.
86.738g sulfuric acid H2SO4 98.07948 g/mol
- 12 * E = 0.884 mol
- 93g of 93.2% acid
- Added more during procedure to make it more stirrable.

theoretical yield:
22.264g ETN C4H6N4O12 302.1 g/mol
- 0.0737 mol

actual yield:
7.09g = 32%

Procedure:

Slowly (20m?) poured KNO3 into freezer-chilled sulfuric acid in ice bath. Max temp ~20C
Let mixture cool to 5C. Slowly (7m) added erythritol and held at this temperature while stirring
This formed an opaque white syrup with some grains. Added 17g of 96[?]% sulfuric acid to smooth it out a bit
Stirred for two hours after adding erythritol
crashed into water and filtered to get bulk ETN
rinsed bulk ETN in water and filtered again. rinsed with 5% baking soda solution
dissolved washed ETN in acetone. filtered out some brown gunk that didn't dissolve
crashed acetone solution into water and filtered
dissolved in min qty acetone (approx 20g) and filtered out some hair and dust that had gotten in
crashed into 3.7% aqueous urea solution
filtered and dried

The syrup was so thick that my overhead stirrer wanted to pull the thermometer out of its clamp. I had to remove the thermometer while stirring and regularly insert to check temp.

The crystals from crashing the acetone solution into water were extremely annoying. Many floated or adhered to the sides of the crash bucket, and the vacuum filtering was very slow even at -25 inHg. I will try another solvent.

Also does anyone have Dugan's ETN part 2 video? Youtube took it down

[Edited on 2024-8-7 by UndermineBriarEverglade]

greenlight

8-8-2024 at 08:57

I have read that ETN is quite finnicky with wildly varying yields when multiple individuals follow the exact same synthesis methods.

I have never used the nitrate salt/sulfuric acid method, always mixed acids. I can imagine that the mixture with nitrate salt gets quite viscous, especially at low temperature.

A few ideas you can apply ne let run if you choose:

1. Try using nitric acid if available to you, doesn't have to be anhydrous.
2. I have read off higher yield success using ammonium nitrate instead of potassium nitrate if that is available.
3. Powder both the nitrate salt and erythritol before addition to increase surface area which will increase reactive surfaces and an increase of collisions within the nitration bath.
4. Constant stirring which also leads to increased rate of collisions.
5. As discussed previously, bring the reaction mixture out of the ice-bath, once the majority of the reaction has taken place, and let it warm on its own to room temperature with stirring before crashing on ice. Pay attention for any signs of runaway during the entire nitration.

If you had trouble filtering after recrystallisation I dont think it was so much the solvent being the issue if it all dissolved easily, you must have ended up with low density (fluffy when dry) final product proba ly due to the speed at which the crystals reformed. You mention it taking a long time to filter due to it most likely clogging the filter paper pores due to small particle size.

I used to achieve quite high quality PETN crystals by dissolving into hot acetone and then pouring very slowly into rapidly stirred cold water with some ice and a small amount of urea. The key was the speed it was poured in.

UndermineBriarEverglade

8-8-2024 at 12:26

Thanks greenlight. I'd read that acetone resulted in large (=sensitive) crunchy crystals so I poured quickly. The result is fluffy and insensitive to impact. Perhaps clogged filter paper ate some of my yield?

I know potassium nitrate is one of the worst choices but unfortunately it's all I can get. Decided not to make nitric acid or AN unless I really can't get the nitrate salt method working.

greenlight

12-8-2024 at 10:29

The reason for trying to achieve the more granular crystals was for preparing plastic explosive which involved a long rolling process to incorporate the binder and plasticiser.
This was with PETN though which is less sensitive than ETN.

And, yes, finer precipitates do clog the filter paper pores and become increasingly difficult to filter as the particle size gets smaller.

Urea nitrate & nitrourea

UndermineBriarEverglade

20-8-2024 at 14:46

I have built ETN caps and an EBW detonator and expect this to be reasonably reliable. Now I want to find a reliable secondary for my main interest: geometry of larger shaped charges. I don't want to make a lot of ETN since synthesis with KNO3 is tedious and that's the only nitrate I have.

I have aqueous urea. The wiki gives a route for urea nitrate: add hydrochloric acid to a hot solution of urea and potassium nitrate, heat til steaming, then freeze to precipitate urea nitrate.

With external heating called for, I assume this reaction is not exothermic. Are there any dangers?
Does urea nitrate need to be mixed with a fuel like AN or does it explode alone?
Rather than using urea nitrate, would it be better to dehydrate it to nitrourea for a higher VOD?
I read that nitrourea is hygroscopic. What happens when it hydrolyzes? Could I simply store it in a plastic bag? Are there chemical ways to stabilize it?
Does anyone know the critical diameters of urea nitrate and nitrourea?
Are both chemicals resistant to shock/friction/heat/static, in other words stable enough to carry to my test site?

Sir_Gawain

20-8-2024 at 20:22

1. I’ve done this reaction before, although with ammonium nitrate instead of potassium nitrate. It’s not very exothermic and is pretty straight forward and safe. I didn’t get a very high yield though.

2. Urea nitrate can be detonated on its own, but I would suggest mixing with ammonium nitrate to make an oxygen balanced explosive. I’ve tested this mixture, and it’s cap sensitive and fairly powerful.

3. While nitrourea is said to be more powerful, I’ve heard it has poor stability. Nitroguanidine is more powerful and stable.

4. I don’t know.

5. I successfully detonated a charge of AN/UN with a diameter of 1cm.

6. Urea nitrate is very insensitive, don’t know about nitrourea.

If you’re trying to make shaped charges, pure urea nitrate is not a good choice. It has a low detonation velocity. A mixture of urea nitrate and ETN could work. You wouldn’t have to make nearly as much ETN.

UndermineBriarEverglade

21-8-2024 at 10:55

Unfortunately I can't buy AN or high-% ammonia. I could produce AN from KNO3 but I'd first need to buy condensing equipment for ammonia. Path to NQ is long from where I am.

Mixing is a good idea but I think it'd take too much ETN. I calculated

ETN 302.1 g/mol
C4H6N4O12→(4 CO2 + 3 H2O + N2 + 3/2 O2) 3 oxygen provided per mol
urea nitrate 123.06 g/mol
CH5N3O4→CO2 + N2 + 1/2 N2 + 2 H2O + H) 1/2 oxygen needed per mol
nitrourea 105.05324 g/mol
H2NC(O)NH(NO2) → (H2O + CO2 + N2 + 1/2 N + H) 1/2 oxygen needed per mol
nitroguanidine 104.068 g/mol
(CH4N4O2 → CO2 + 2N2 + 2 H2[O]) 2 oxygen needed per mol

So for an oxygen-balanced 100g charge:

29g ETN + 71g urea nitrate
32.4 ETN + 67.6g nitrourea
66g ETN + 34g NQ

If my math is right a 2kg charge with ETN/UN would be 580g of ETN. Although the mix would be safe to handle I don't want to manufacture such quantities of ETN. If UN must be mixed I'd rather use a cheap oxidizer. Don't want to waste my KNO3 but I wonder what calcium sulfate would do?

I think strong confinement might be able to make working shaped charges from low VOD explosive.

Sir_Gawain

21-8-2024 at 12:36

ETN only produces 1 oxygen per mole, not 3.
(C₄H₆N₄O₁₂ > 4CO₂ + 3H₂O + 2N₂ + 1/2O₂)

I highly doubt adding any calcium sulfate to an explosive composition would increase performance - it’s far too unreactive. Even if it did manage to take part in the detonation reaction, the solid byproducts would dampen the energy significantly.

UndermineBriarEverglade

22-8-2024 at 09:08

Equation contaminated by atmospheric O2!

In that case the situation is even bleaker, 2 moles urea nitrate per 1 mole ETN to be oxygen balanced.

I grabbed off a list of pyrotechnic oxidizers, looking for easy-to-obtain chemicals. Tichapondwa 2015 uses it to replace barium sulfate in slow-burning delay compositions, which is about the opposite of an explosion. I guess a more reactive oxidizer is in order. I may need to find a fertilizer source of KNO3, stump remover is pricey.

dettoo456

22-8-2024 at 11:21

NQ is far and away the best option for mixing with ETN, as it’s very powerful on its own, insensitive, and very stable. The only issue is obtaining the right crystal morphology to select for small particle size and rounded crystal shape. Even so, UN is just too weak and finnicky IMO.

If you’re not comfortable answering, don’t feel you need to, but are you in the US? If so, pyrochemsource still offers GN cheaply (a cheaper alternative than making your own if you’re doing small scale work). Then, just dehydrate with conc H2SO4, regenerate the spent acid, and then repeat the process.

Also, a shaped charge with a cone angle <90ish degrees WILL require a high performing EM with uniform density and initiation to perform correctly. If you are considering using ETN mixes instead of pure ETN, I’d recommend just looking at EFPs - easier to produce, much more forgiving in use with weaker EMs, and performs on-par with amateur made shaped charges.

To give some ideas on how to optimize performance based on different materials and charge designs: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA419413.pdf

[Edited on 22-8-2024 by dettoo456]

[Edited on 22-8-2024 by dettoo456]

UndermineBriarEverglade

24-8-2024 at 12:09

Thanks dettoo, I'll do more research into EFPs. Curious what determines the amount of "curve" of the parabolic? liners I see in videos.

(NH2)2CO + KNO3 + HCl -> CH5N3O4 + KCl

So what about using this KCl byproduct with bleach to make potassium chlorate, to mix with UN? (Maybe not NU, highly reactive with S traces from dehydration.) It would be oxygen balanced at 14:86 ratio. Wonder if it would be too sensitive.

UndermineBriarEverglade

4-9-2024 at 09:55

Think I'm not going to do potassium chlorate, probably too sensitive. Potassium perchlorate possibly, but it's additional trouble to make. KCl from UN reaction is better off poured down the drain, it's easier to buy food-grade KCl. I might just mix ETN and UN for EFPs so that I can get on with it.

I tried melt-casting a 10g cylinder of ETN but it's full of bubbles. Obviously I don't want to knock liquid ETN around to get the bubbles out. Has anybody made a vacuum chamber for melt-casting?

dettoo456

9-9-2024 at 08:01

I believe the vacuum casting has been brought up before but I can’t remember what was discussed regarding design or implementation.

In any case, you’d need plastic to avoid shrapnel (just in case). I’d say those glass dessicators could work too, but they have really thick glass which would act as a strong thermal mass, and whenever melt casting, you’ll want your heating vessel to be able to dissipate heat quickly in case of a thermal runaway.

On top of that, you might run into issues using water as a heating fluid with its higher vapor pressure. A light oil could be better.

Bender84

12-9-2024 at 10:39

Is dry PETN prone to static charge accumulation due to e.g. triboelectric effect? Is it a standard practice to wash it with an anti-static agent before drying? I'm asking this in the context of detonating cords production process. Thanks in advance.

Urea nitrate

UndermineBriarEverglade

14-9-2024 at 10:30

Made some urea nitrate. When stored at room temp it gave off acid fumes and seemed permanently damp. I thought it was supposed to be storage stable and non-hygroscopic. How do you guys dry and recrystallize it?

I pressed 20g of crystals into a 16mm tall / 36mm wide plastic cylinder (approx 1.3 g/cm³ after cap intrusion) and attempted to detonate from above with a 400mg ETN cap. Incomplete or no detonation occurred. The sides and lid of the cylinder were destroyed but the bottom face was practically unharmed and some clumps of urea nitrate remained on it. What happened?

Sir_Gawain

14-9-2024 at 11:48

Did you wash it with alcohol?

UndermineBriarEverglade

14-9-2024 at 12:19

No. I was fooled by the wiki which has the wrong value for ethanol solubility. With pure and dry product, would it have detonated in that arrangement?

Sir_Gawain

14-9-2024 at 13:08

Urea nitrate isn’t very sensitive, but I would expect it to detonate under those conditions. Maybe try adding a sensitizer, like ETN.

UndermineBriarEverglade

14-9-2024 at 14:06

Thanks. I'll probably repeat the experiment with better UN.

One more set of questions. I'm thinking about giving up on UN and its derivatives and using ETN as primary charges. I see that you can make a PBX with styrofoam+acetone, and that ETN can be melt-cast with nitrocellulose.

Instead of melting, could I dissolve ETN and NC in acetone and then let the mix dry? Seems safer than molten ETN, enough do it under vacuum to remove bubbles.
What are the properties of ETN+NC? Is it more or less sensitive than ETN?
How about polystyrene mixes?
I've also got DBSP. Dangerously sensitive over pure NC lacquer?

ATO (aminotriazolone)

underground

24-9-2024 at 12:14

Will carbohydrazine and formic acid form aminotriazolone (ATO) just like semicarbazide with formic acid form triazolone ? I am not a chemist so i am not really sure

Edit: From this paper ATO is made from carbohydrazide and triethyl orthoformate

Quote:

The ATO used in this work was prepared as follows. Appropriate quantities of triethyl orthoformate (20 ml) and carbohydrazide (25 g) in aqueous solution were put into a reaction bulb and stirred at 60–85 °C for 3 h. The water and the by-product ethanol were distilled off and the white precipitate was collected by filtration. The precipitate was washed thoroughly with ethanol and vacuum dried.

Triethyl orthoformate from wiki

Quote:

Triethyl orthoformate is an organic compound with the formula HC(OC2H5)3. This colorless volatile liquid, the ortho ester of formic acid, is commercially available.

So my question is if just formic acid can be used instead of Triethyl orthoformate, just like the triazolone synthesis.

[Edited on 25-9-2024 by underground]

dettoo456

25-9-2024 at 04:56

I believe the terminal amines would be more reactive and the end product would either be a pseudo-polymeric, nitrogenous chain of carbohydrazide with methyl linkages, or just 1,2,4,5-tetrazine-3-one. The tetrazine though, is most often prepared with a much stronger formylating agent like Diphosgene or CDI.

So I can’t give a specific answer, but I don’t think the triazole’s formation would be very likely.

underground

25-9-2024 at 05:25

Quote: Originally posted by dettoo456

According to the attached file, carbohydrazide cyclocondensate with aldehydes to form tetrazine

Quote:

Firstly, thiocarbohydrazide (1) was prepared as shown in
equation (1) and Scheme (1)[18] in good yield (76 %)
[15]. This compound gave three special absorption bands
in FT-IR spectra at 3306, (3274 and 3203) and 1282 cm-1
refered to three functional groups NH2, NH and C=S
respectively in addition to the N-N functional group at
1489 cm-1 and C-N functional group at 1384 cm-1. While
in U.V spectra it gave two types of electronic transition
represented by n→π* and π→π* at (355 & 272 nm
)respectively [19].Thiocarbohydrazide (1) used as a
good precursor to form symmetrical tatrazine represented
by compounds 6-aryl1,2,4,5-tetrahydro tetrazine-3-thione
compounds (2-6) through cyclocondensation reaction with
substituted benzaldehyde in acidic media , and these compounds
were isolated in good yield (Table I). The reaction started
by the formation of schiff base through the action of the
electron pair of primary amino group in
thiocarbohydrazide on the carbonyl group in substituted
benzaldehyde followed by proton transfer which lead to
the intracyclization reaction between the second primary
amino group and schiff base to obtained compounds (2-6)
as shown in (Scheme 2) [11].

CHZ will first react with C=O bond of the formic acid (1:1) to form

H2N-NH-C-NH-N=C-OH
_______II ______I___
_______O ______H___
Then, if the OH group will react with NH2, tetrazine will be form.
If the OH group react with the NH group then ATO will be formed.

Now with excess of formic acid,i believe a polymeric mess may accure

Attachment: Dr.ShaymaaK.Younis.pdf (727kB)
This file has been downloaded 52 times

[Edited on 25-9-2024 by underground]

underground

27-9-2024 at 12:37

Ok after searching a bit, the amine group like to react with the C=O group forming C=NH + H20 while amides like to reach with the C-OH group forming C-NH2. A good example is semicarbazide and formic acid. The amine react with the C=O group and the amide with the C-OH group closing the ring. So most likely CHZ and formic acid (1:2) will form this

So if i am correct, it will somehow close the ring with oxalic acid forming this

Interestingly, CHZ and parabanic acid may form an analoge to glycoluril.

[Edited on 27-9-2024 by underground]

Polkem

10-10-2024 at 17:07

I plan on constructing a Mercury Fulminate and PETN det's since those are the chemicals I have precursors for, I've heard that MF does not work well with aluminium casings, and I've looked through the forums and found 2 instances of people stating to use copper or brass tubes when using MF dets, I'm just looking to verify this.

paulll

11-10-2024 at 14:30

Quote: Originally posted by Polkem

It does decompose over time and aluminium's famously vulnerable to even small amounts of mercury, so, seems legit.

Nitrocellulose Bonded Black Powder

4-Stroke

15-10-2024 at 10:49

Black powder can be granulated (when a bit of acetone (or water or isopropanol) is added to the dry black powder and then put through a sift to make individual grains which are then dried), but what I was wondering is, how will nitrocellulose affect the black powder (if it is dissolved in the acetone that gets mixed with the black powder)? Will it make black powder burn slower? Faster? Make it more water resistant? Make the grains stronger? Have no effect at all?

UndermineBriarEverglade

1-11-2024 at 19:08

I saw some short lengths of borosilicate tube for sale. Glass is harder than aluminum; would it make a more powerful blasting cap?

dettoo456

4-11-2024 at 07:31

Quote: Originally posted by 4-Stroke

It would definitely increase the burn rate, and may reduce hygroscopicity simply by coating the KNO3 granules, but will not store very long in general. Any excess moisture or acidity near the Sulfur can create minute concentrations of H2SO4 which will hydrolyze the NC.

dettoo456

4-11-2024 at 07:44

Quote: Originally posted by UndermineBriarEverglade

I saw some short lengths of borosilicate tube for sale. Glass is harder than aluminum; would it make a more powerful blasting cap?

Not likely; hardness is better to allow for an increase in the gas pressure in the tube during the combustion/detonation process, but glass is far more brittle and that would compromise any gains you might see in the pressure capacity of glass over something like Al or steel. The ductility of metals during those high-pressure phases will allow for better transfer of all of that energy when the shear strength of the metals is passed.

Also, the ductility of metal allows for much fewer fragments to be created when the tube bursts from the detonation, so the fast moving gases can be directed in only a few directions whilst keeping their pressure and speed concentrated towards a booster charge. Glass would shatter (even under low pressure) into hundreds of much smaller fragments, each one carrying away the energy of the detonation gases with them. And since the glass has a lower density than metal as well, those glass fragments would naturally have lower kinetic energies.

Glass is also just more prone to friction-generated issues that could arise with loading.

It’s an all-around bad idea IMO.

Sir_Gawain

4-11-2024 at 09:08

Glass is also likely to shatter from loading or by being dropped. The best detonator casings are aluminum and stainless steel, in my experience.

UndermineBriarEverglade

4-11-2024 at 09:19

Quote: Originally posted by dettoo456

Quote: Originally posted by UndermineBriarEverglade

I saw some short lengths of borosilicate tube for sale. Glass is harder than aluminum; would it make a more powerful blasting cap?

Would it be accurate to say that pulverizing the glass would absorb more energy than ballooning a metal cap? Or that the way the metal makes those fractal cracks releases strong jets of gas that wouldn't happen with a glass cap that burst more quickly?

If it's relevant these would be EBW caps with ETN, so not much of a combustion process happening and they don't need to be pressed particularly hard. Shrapnel isn't really a concern since I'm storing and transporting the caps safely. My aluminum caps work fine already but I was curious. (Alas, I have no easy to way to test this anyway. I'd have to set off many main charges to see what size a given metal/glass cap could detonate.)