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Nevermore
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Silver acetylide/nitrate
I wonder if is possible to make double salts having silver but HNO3.
I was thinking about a preparation "on the field" of some HNO3 by mixing concentrated sulfuric and ammonium nitrate, but im not sure if what
i will obtain will be pure enough to be useful as nitric acid or if is needed nitric acid free of sulfuric, also the formation of ammonium sulfate
would interfere in the reaction?
Is it needed to make the salt neutral for storage or i can store acidic, and if yes, what should i use to make it neutral and doesn't react with?
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kingspaz
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using xNO3 + H2SO4 doesn't work in my experience. it does however make a very weakly explosive complex of silver sulphate though.
i could be wrong on this but i think it reacts with bases releasing acetyene.
as for making it neutral i think a good washing with lots of water will suffice, althoughi haven't conducted any tests yet to do with this. i
plan to next time my double salts supply runs out.
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Madog
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hm, i would try getting Ca(NO3)2 or Pb(NO3)2 and useing that to make the HNO3 and diluteing it then filtering, then disolve the silver.
the other ions are going to cause silver salts of them to precipitate and/or cause the formation of unwanted complexes. as kingspaz said
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Nevermore
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Got some carbide today, there is only one supplier left in the town, the price was rather cheap! 2 bucks for one kg first quality big rocks not even a
little white powder!
I managed some Ag2C2*AgNO3, took 50 ml AgNO3 saturated solution in HNO3 and i diluited in triple volume distilled water, then i took a small carbide
stone and bubbled all the gas inside the solution, in around 20 seconds the solution turned white, and before the gas stopped bubbling everything was
a thick white slurry, definitely a spectacular yeld.
Like Madog told me the copper impurities doesn't react, in fact the filtering liquid has still a green colour, and if i bubble again nothing more
precipitate.
[Edited on 17/10/2003 by Nevermore]
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froot
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I recently made some silver acetylide, using 55% HNO3 and silver obtained from old 3 phase electric contactors. The contact points are pads brazed
onto the copper bars and contain an appreciable amount of silver in the alloy.
The nitric acid with the 'silver' turned green and a precipitate also formed. (heating the concoction would probably speed it up). The
green liquid was separated from the solids which then turned blue after a while??? Acetylene bubbled through and bingo, the white precipitate.
Turns grey when dry and very impressive. Still testing.
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Nevermore
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one of the strange thing i saw about this sinth is this:
i made a large batch of silver nitrate in hno3, some copper was present so the solution turned a bright green, however, i made a first small batch of
about 50 ml solution, i got a fair yeld of snowy white precipitate, dusty like talc powder.
The second batch i made was approx the same amount, just i diluite more with distilled water, the yeld was more than times, but the product is not
white but dirt gray, a very thin powder..
I washed both batches and at now i am drying the second one over an hot plate (50°C) to check what is and if there is any difference with the first
one, since exactly the same procedure has been followed.
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froot
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Silver acetylide, hotplate, 50 degrees? please be careful. Especially with a larger batch. I would tend to assume the sensitivity to even existing
multiplies at higher temperatures.
I've found that with my batch there is very high sensitivity to heat, and so far nothing to friction- so far!
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Nevermore
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No difference has been seen, after a while the product turned white like usual, i wonder what it was, maybe the light?
btw my large batch are always under 2 grams, and before touching anything i let it cool down.
Anyway the salts are insensitive to friction and to hit.
sensitive to flame, but not so much to heat.
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froot
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With regards to the different yields that you're getting, a few questions immediatly come to mind.
Does C2H2 react with HNO3, therefore acetylene being redirected from making Ag2C2 to something else that inhibits some yeild.
Maybe pH plays a part. I have another batch going, and will try neutralising solution and compare yields, NH4OH perhaps?
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Nevermore
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your idea is interesting, however by bubbling acethylene in a neutral or basic solution is more likely to get pure Ag2C2 instead of double salts, i
tested with litmus and the solution i used is highly acid, ph less than 2.
I don't really know why happens to have different yelds, maybe the first time i didn't use enough acethylene, or the carbide are more
soluble in stronger HNO3..
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froot
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I assume we'd rather have double salts than pure Ag2C2. (I'm not sure how the pure Ag2C2 properties differ from DS) From what you said it
seems that the double salt/pure Ag2C2 ratio produced is very dependant on pH, or the molar amount of C2H2 that reacted.
So (theory) if you had a solution with a pH of say 3, you'd be sure to have say 70% double salt in the precipitate, no matter how much acetylene
you bubble thru. Or if the pH is above a certain level you just get Ag2C2.
And if this theory is true, would the properties of the product vary. How close can we get to the perfect primary? Just questions running through my
head.
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Nevermore
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well, for what i know, Ag2C2 and double salts are very similar, being DS a little less sensitive and giving out more gas output.
But i don't think the difference is so evident..
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froot
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I've left my second batch unfinished. After you said that neutralising makes pure Ag2C2 I decided I could probable put it to better use.
I have a theory -again- that hopefully the real chemical folks could help us with.
A while ago I read the (Mr. Anonymous: azo-clathrate primaries) thread presented by Pulverone - exellent thread!- and I thought maybe concepts there
could be used here.
Either while synthesising Ag2C2.AgNO3 or substituting one of the precursers in that thread with the above?!!?
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Nevermore
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you can acidify easily by some HNO3
DS are great, if they had a better yeld and if silver was less expensive then they were my only det!
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unionised
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I seem to remember an old chem. text book saying that you should destroy acetylides by treating them with HNO3.
Ag2C2 +2 HNO3 --> 2 AgNO3 + C2H2
(This is the equivalent of disolving a carbonate in acid)
The only time I made the copper and silver salts of acetylene I used a solution of the metal (as the monovalent ion) in aqueous ammonia.
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hodges
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When making silver acetylide, would it be possible to simply drop a bit of CaC2 into a dilute AgNO3 solution, as opposed to creating an aparatus to
bubble the acetylene through? It seems to me this should work. A direct replacement may occur, with silver nitrate plus calcium carbide producing
silver carbide plus calcium nitride. If this does not occur, the CaC2 would simply react with the water to produce acetylene, which would bubble
through the solution to produce silver carbide. The calcium oxide would react with the the liberated nitrate to again produce calcium nitrate.
Calcium nitrate is quite soluable whereas silver carbide is not, so I think this should work. Any thoughts?
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chemoleo
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I don't see why it shouldnt work.
Normally acetylene is bubbled through the AgNO3 solution, so why not adding calcium carbide directly?
The only bigger problem I can see is that CaC2 is normally delivered in big chunks. Adding this to a bucked of AgNO3 solution will almost certainly
lead to the explosive evolution of gases (not literally explosive). So if you try it, add TINY grains, one at a time, until it has disappeared.
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forundretfrede
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"Direct method"
If you dump the carbide directly into your solution, you will get problems.
The carbide reacts to produce calcium hydroxide, this will neutralize your acid, and then you will have a precipitate of moderately insoluble
hydroxide mixed with the product you want. When you use the gas from a separate generator, you wont have this problem.
By the way, technical grade carbide is NOT a clean substance, so youll allso have sand and other impurities as well.
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hodges
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I made about 0.15g of Ag2C2 using a NH4OH/AgNO3 solution. I bubbled the C2H2 through the solution using a small tube, and didn't try adding the
CaC2 directly to the solution.
I got a lot of spongy gray precipitate. I let two small pieces, about 0.01g each, dry. While still drying I set one of them off with a barbecue
lighter. The dry part detonated with a weak bang; the wet part did not. Once completely dry the pieces shrank considerably. Each was really just a
speck, but when ignited made a very loud bang.
I destroyed the rest of the the Ag2C2 by adding HCl until no more C2H2 was evolved. I never felt unsafe with the substance, its just that even the
smallest amount I could use still makes a very loud bang, and I don't wish to annoy my neighbors and/or call attention to myself. With other
energetic materials such as Ag3N and NI3 I have been able to get the bang down to something reasonable (like that of a toy cap) by using very small
amounts. But it seems Ag2C2 is loud no matter how small the amount. Which is pretty amazing given that no gasses are evolved by the reaction.
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Nevermore
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also you can easily find that is very weak, sometime not able to pierce light cardboard...
this compound has the interesting quality of detonating in a very small amount..
Other compounds usually detonate only if the weight is up a minimum, but this doesn't 
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hodges
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Actually, all the explosive silver compounds seem to do this (detonate even in tiny amounts). Silver acetylide, silver nitride, silver fulminate....
Likewise with the gold compounds. Must be a thing about heavy metals.
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Dream of the iris
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Silver Acetylide
I'm thinking about synthing this explosive soon, since I just recently got some silver and calcium carbide. Anyone have any expirence with this?
\"Woah! Ok, you\'re now shooting your imaginary friend in front of 400 gallons of nitroglycern!\"
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stricnine
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Yep: bubble the acetylene through a silver nitrate solution. Precipitate forms. Filter the stuff and dry it (NOT with a flame! - or the joy will go
off not where you want). The thing is DARN sensitive, so be careful. The dry silver acetylide will explode by scratching it gently with a glass rod.
Try with small quantities to learn about it. Heard of a guy who took a test tube full of it to school in his chest pocket, and then they had to remove
the glass shrapnel from his lungs. What a waste of a test tube!
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pihop
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I wouldn't even get close to any kind of acetylides.
You can always fill a baloong with acetylene and light it with a long stick.
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Dream of the iris
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I thought this explosive was less sensitive then AP. I'm trying to find another primary to use instead of AP and SA seems like a fitting choice,
unless it's more sensitive then AP.
[Edited on 22-12-2005 by Dream of the iris]
\"Woah! Ok, you\'re now shooting your imaginary friend in front of 400 gallons of nitroglycern!\"
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