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16MillionEyes
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The "undesirable" type of chemistry web pages
I know this subjected has been touched on and is of great importance to anyone doing chemistry at home. Perhaps most of us have never really seen the
"roots" of all these drug chemists so it only comes to us in a more informative type of way or so it's the usual way.
Today I was browsing for some of the contents of drain opener Sulfuric acid and by pure chance I came to a site (displayed on the search engine) that
talked about them in an unrelated type of way (as usual). After reading some of the article I went to the main directory to see if I could find
anything of importance. As it turns out it isn't your regular chemistry-fun experiments type of site it was a drug making site. What really strike me
here is that whoever wrote this page actually has some decent amount of chemistry knowledge and yet the person is doing that sort of thing. Just what
drives people to actually take on chemistry to accomplish such degrading task?
Here's the site if anyone is interested to look at it but now I don't even know just how good of an idea this is to have in your "history" files.
http://designer-drug.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/in...
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Sauron
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There are many such websites. Part of the price of freedom of expression. Censorship is no answer. Just hold your nose and surf on.
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woelen
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Sometimes you even find useful information on such sites. But indeed, best is to simply ignore them and turn to something else.
But I personally think it is a pity that such sites exist. This is the kind of sites, which make home chemistry a shady activity in the eyes of many
people. Unfortunately, for most people, sciencemadness is in the same line of shady sites as the one, mentioned above.
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Sauron
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I think that is a little unfair.
The powers that be on this site do shut down "drug cook" threads They are just a wee but lenient with chemical discussions in which the posters are
competent and can express themselves professionally as chemists.
Furthermore not everything that is illegal in one jurisdiction is illegal in all others, and this is a global site.
And finally, there is a big difference between reading about and studying any given synthesis on the one hand and actually conducting such a
preparation on the other. I study the preparation of a lot of things that I will never and would never actually undertake to make. There's nothing
wrong with that.
So I disagree that SM is the moral equivalent of designer-drugs.com (or erowid or thehive etc.) The moderators have a thin line to walk between
excluding drug cookery on the one hand and allowing free exchange of scientific information on the other.
We all ought to remember and consider that essentially everything on any of those drug cookery sites is IN THE LITERATURE and can be accessed at most
any library. No one is proposing to restrict access to the literature of chemistry, or to start ripping out pages or censoring with a black felt
marker. THAT would be a travesty. Well, what is the difference between the hard copy lit. and the cyber-lit? Nothing, that's what.
The abuse of knowledge is the fault of the people who abuse it and not inherent in the knowledge itself. Many or most drugs of abuse started out as
legitimate pharmaceuticals. Heroin was a cold remedy. Cocaine a cure for morphine addiction. Many armies supplied amphetamines to soldiers in combat
as recently as WWII, Korea and Vietnam. Today's legitimate pharm compound may be tomorrow's abuse drug of fashion. No one can say.
Look at Rohypnol and GBL/GBA/GABA, demonized in USA because of feminazi dogma about "date rape" but nowhere else in the world AFAIK. Thanks for
nothing, Hillary.
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woelen
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My previous post might have lead to some misunderstanding. I did not say that I think that sciencemadness is the moral equivalent of drug-related
forums and sites. I said that most people out there (the non-chemists, and even many chemists, affiliated with an official lab) think that
sciencemadness is a shady (maybe even undesirable) website. I wish it would be otherwise.
For me, this definitiely is NOT a shady site, otherwise I would not post over here, and I would not sponsor this site. But I'm quite sure that most
people, who accidently hit this site, will frown upon it, simply because it is clear from all posts, that many members of this forum have lots of very
scary and evil chemicals and apparatus at home (evil and scary in the eyes of the non-informed or ill-informed).
[Edited on 10-9-07 by woelen]
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Sauron
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"Evil and scary" what? Those are loaded words. I really do not much care what the ignorant might think. I do not believe that CHEMISTS of any sort
would regard possession of most chemicals and equipment as "evil and scary" and frankly, no one but chemists are in a position to have a clue.
Give me an example of an evil and scary chemical
And an evil and scary apparatus.
Is a rotavapor evil and scary?
A drying oven?
A pH meter?
A glove box?
A heating mantle?
Come on, what's evil and scary? This isn't Frankenstein's castle with a Jacob's ladder and a giant static generator and Leyden jard. (And if it were
that's not chemical, they are only evil and scary because Hollywood taught people so.)
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YT2095
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boy oh boy, you Really DO have a penchant for entirely missing the point don`t you!
evil and scary chem, look up list One stuff.
apparatus, a few test tubes and hot plate.
please RE READ: " (evil and scary in the eyes of the non-informed or ill-informed)."
Capiche?
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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Sauron
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I'm not in the US so List One means nothing to me. (I know what it is and what's on it but iot has nothing to do with anything here.) The PUBLIC does
not capisce List One from a hole in the ground, as you very well know.
My challenges stand.
Here's my own little list of what I think the great unwashed PUBLIC thinks is evil and scary:
Anything to do with explosives and they are unlikely to distinguish between explosives and pyrotechnics/fireworks as amply demonstrated by the case of
our member who little pvc pipe "firework" has caused him so much grief
Note that I do not share this view, but I do avoid making explosives, or pyrotechnics. As long as this site is primarily an energetics materials
amatuer chemistry site with an Ordnance bomb as its symbol, indistinguishable from an anarchist's bomb with a lit fuse circa 1890, then we will have a
little PR problem, won't we?
Unfortunate but it's the truth.
EVERY thread about TATP and every other terrorist-linked improvised explosive is a nail in the coffin of this forum.
[Edited on 10-9-2007 by Sauron]
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YT2095
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well, regardless of your feeling the need to "Challenge" anyone here, RE READ what Woelen said and IN CONTEXT!
then, just Maybe you`ll see what he was trying to say, instead of your spin and belligerents, and what you might Like to Think he was trying to say.
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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Sauron
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I read woelen's posts carefully more than once, and I am still not convinced that even woelen knows what he was trying to say. In any case it's his
obligation to write cogently if we are to understand him.
I happen to regard woelen as a friend, and I was not engaging in belligerents (or belligerance either which is what you meant to say.)
I have no need to spin-doctor anything. If woelen meant to say "The general public regards all home chemistry as evil and scary" I would have agreed
with him, except that I would propose that the staement is still valid if he drops the word HOME. The public has been conditioned to regard all
SCIENCE EVERYWHERE as evil and scary, which is a pity.
And if the institutional scientists think they can assuage the mob of luddites by conducting a pogrom against amatuers, then I suggest to them that
THEY will be NEXT and maybe they should consider where their interests lie.
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woelen
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Please let's stop making each other angry based on a few words of mine, which do not have any importance at all  .
What I mean is that possesion of any chemical in the eyes of the non-informed public is evil and scary. Use a 'difficult' word, e.g. talk about
'sodium sulfate' or even worse 'potassium ferrocyanide' and you'll understand what I mean. I once did an experiment with children, using
iron(III)chloride and potassium ferrocyanide, making 'invisible ink' and then making it blue. The kids liked the experiment very much, but one of the
parents was really scared when I told her what I used for this experiment. She was quite upset and did not want that kind of things to happen in her
neighbourhood. With some explanation I could take away the fear, but it clearly demonstrated how the general public is 'informed' nowadays.
And Sauron, what do you think will happen if a non-informed person enters your lab (e.g. service personnel for your central heating system), sees a
large number of glassware items, an even larger number of bottles, with skull and bone signs on them, signs of flames and so on? Good chance that such
a person calls the police after he has left your house.
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Sauron
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Central heating in Bangkok? Not a good example!
However: (1) I have a registered corporation its articles of incorporation include chemical research in description of purpose. (2) I have close
personal friendships with very high ranking Thai police generals as well as senior military commanders and politicians. These are outgrowths of my
former business and professional life.
As a consequence your scenario is unlikely. Thailand is not the US or the UK.
Anyway, woelen, what proposal do you have to offer (if any) to ameliorate the situation you describe?
I was not at all angry about anything you said. YT often seems to be angry at my posts, and I find his replied exasperating, but I assure you that I
was not angry with you.
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YT2095
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Some numbers Mine:
| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
However: (1) I have a registered corporation its articles of incorporation include chemical research in description of purpose.
(2) I have close personal friendships with very high ranking Thai police generals as well as senior military commanders and politicians. These are
outgrowths of my former business and professional life.
(3)As a consequence your scenario is unlikely. Thailand is not the US or the UK.
(4)Anyway, woelen, what proposal do you have to offer (if any) to ameliorate the situation you describe?
(5)I was not at all angry about anything you said. YT often seems to be angry at my posts, and I find his replied exasperating, but I assure you that
I was not angry with you. |
1: good for you
2: see above
3: WE are not IN thailand you are, your point being????
4: I`m not sure he offered one, Or that was even the aim of the thread!
5: I`m not pissed with you either (nor have been), I am an advocate or Reading what was said however, and also an adherent to Context.
and considering that English is a Second language for Woelen, there is little room for your criticism(s).
[Edited on 10-9-2007 by YT2095]
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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Sauron
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I am not at all convinced that this thread ever had a point.
Making an observation of the obvious (problem) and failing to suggest even a partial fix, is rather pointless, isn't it?
As t my status, woelen asked and I answered. If you have not covered your own ass, where you reside, in an appropriate manner then shame on you. (CYA
is a good old Washington expression, meaning, protect yourself).
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YT2095
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well the only question mark the OP presented was about the Motive, and Nothing (seriously Nothing) to do with "a Fix" partial or otherwise.
as for "disagreeable" then yes, not All areas of chem are agreeable to all, I don`t look in or post in the Energetics area for instance (I may have
done for the Odd post here and there, but it`s not a "Haunt" for me).
I don`t know the 1`st thing about "Drugs" either, so I don`t post in that (or even know if we Have such an area here).
the point was that Drugs = Smak, Coke, Speed, etc... but never NSAIDs for instance.
Energetics = B0mz0rz and kids missing fing0rz, never a neat color comp for a garden Fountain or firework or Stars, or even the stuff that gets the ISS
into Space/Orbit in the 1`st place.
that gets overlooked by the great unwashed.
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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quicksilver
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
=-snipped for brevity-=
My challenges stand.
Here's my own little list of what I think the great unwashed PUBLIC thinks is evil and scary:
Anything to do with explosives and they are unlikely to distinguish between explosives and pyrotechnics/fireworks as amply demonstrated by the case of
our member who little pvc pipe "firework" has caused him so much grief
=-snipped for brevity-=
Unfortunate but it's the truth.
EVERY thread about TATP and every other terrorist-linked improvised explosive is a nail in the coffin of this forum.
[Edited on 10-9-2007 by Sauron] |
IMO THAT is the object/perception/query of the OP. Does the Great Unwashed view such things in the light of present day media processed pap?
Could (or would) anyone here develop a conversation with someone who does not share a science related hobby and have them react with negativity toward
energetic materials (would they even know what that term means?) or infer that any discussion of pharmacology outside a professional research setting
is "drug cooking"?
I would side with the Great Unwashed rushing to judgment so damn fast that one would need to explain oneself to such a degree that it in itself would
appear suspicious!
Paranoia sells media-based advertising. Paranoia is what is engendered by the phrasing and descriptives used in mass communication....Perhaps starting
before the Civil War in the USA (& even earlier on the continent).
I don't believe the logo is an Ordinance Bomb however. It just looks that way due to the flames.
[Edited on 10-9-2007 by quicksilver]
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S.C. Wack
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There was a website called Rhodium? Wow, who knew.
One telling sign of how a site might be viewed by others is the sites that link to it in posts from its members, and on a links page. Links to Rhodium
here, the-hive to here, RS to here, and amateur chemistry sites in other languages to here. The SM FAQ has links to the-hive, RS, WD, APC, and
synthetikal. Now, do any "legitimate" chemistry sites link to here in their links section? No, they don't. This site is not mentioned despite the
resources that it has on certain subjects.
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woelen
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@Sauron: Your situation is totally different than my situation and cannot be compared. I have to be careful with certain things, probably much more
than you have to be. It be so. Such is life... But try to imagine how most amateur chemists are operating. No connection of high ranking, no
possibilities to buy any chemical they want, not even for high prices. You really should try to imagine how the majority has to struggle with finding
reagents and how limited their resources are, both in a practical sense (availability of reagents and equipment) and in a jurisdiction-sense (not
having any protecting high-rank connections).
I do not think that we should offer a solution to this situation. I cannot, and most people cannot. But what is wrong with discussing this situation
and trying to make such things explicit? That is my idea of what the OP of this thread intended when starting this thread.
Finally, I did not have the impression that you were angry with me, I was referring to your conversation with YT2095. But again, please stop this kind
of anger, my words are not worth making another thread with hot heads and cold hearts .
@S.C. Wack: I strongly agree with your observation. Indeed, what we see is that the home chemistry community (on the Internet) is a fairly 'closed'
community, in the sense that besides links to each other, there hardly are any links from the 'legitimate' outside world (e.g. large companies,
universities) to sites inside the amateur chemistry world. This all has to do with the image of amateur science and most particularly amateur
chemistry. A 'respected' multinational does not want to be associated with 'sciencemadness'.
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chromium
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| Quote: | Originally posted by S.C. Wack
Now, do any "legitimate" chemistry sites link to here in their links section? No, they don't. This site is not mentioned despite the resources that it
has on certain subjects. |
Those legitimate chemistry sites do not link here because this sites main concern is not explaining and retelling typical schoolbooks or doing other
things which are considered valuable by modern institutional and government controlled science. Home experimenting is not only considered unnecessary
but also weird and possibly dangerous or evil. Main reason is not that explosives are discussed here but the idea of doing complex labstyle
experiments at home without being continously controlled by government bureaucrats.
Btw there is no adult oriented home experimentation site which is linked by those "legitimate" chemistry sites.
[Edited on 10-9-2007 by chromium]
When all think alike, then no one is thinking. - Walter Lippmann
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Sauron
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So some of us feel that it is the stink from the drug cooks and their fellow travellers that make people regard this forum askance.
And others suspect that it is the very focus on energetics that causes the alleged ill repute.
It is just a matter of opinion.
The former, isn't likely to change. A quick look at current threads will show that some members are still bemoaning the passing of The Hive and
Rhodium, and praying to the drug gods for their return. Meanwhile few if any of us want to see draconian censorship imposed. I think the proprietor of
the forum has struck a decent balance. Blatant "cook" threads get trashed. Not so blatant ones get tolerated. We can all live with that.
It is VERY unlikely that the emphasis on energetics is going to be dropped, that is simply a non-starter.
This being the case, aren't we just sitting and wringing our hands about the subject? This seems to me to serve no useful purpose.
Woelen encountered a neighbor who was offended by his hobby, apparently she heard the word "ferricyanide" and went off. Perhaps he should have said
hexacyanatoferrate instead and let her eyes glaze over? Or make up gobbledigook like hexanitriloferrate. His neighbor is unlikely to be a JACS peer
reviewer or sit on the IUPAC Nomenclature Committee. What I am saying is that this was a self inflicted wound.
She probably has more evil and scary chemicals in the cabinet under her kitchen sink.
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16MillionEyes
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Well, after looking through some of the replies here, my intention of this thread wasn't to cry out a sign of awareness of an inherent 'evil' that
must be stopped.
I was simply pointing out two things: first finding sites like this seems a relatively easy task even if you're not looking for them and second that I
found somewhat surprising just how well informed these "cooks" are on their chemistry. Other than that I asked for opinions on just what drives
regular amateur chemists to start up on drug synthesizing and nothing else.
I hope this sort of clarifies the purpose of this thread.
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Sauron
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Isn't it obvious?
1. Greed
2. More greed
3. Avarice.
The fellow who was chemist for the Aum Shin Rikkyo made their stuff because they built an $11 Million lab for him and he had better facilities than
he'd had at his university.
I bet succesful drug cooks have nice labs too.
The rest want to grow up to be like that.
Consider the chemist who was making acid for the Deadheads in an abandoned missile silo. He was apparently quite competent and talented. Now he's
rotting in a federal pen.
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YT2095
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| Quote: | Originally posted by __________
I asked for opinions on just what drives regular amateur chemists to start up on drug synthesizing and nothing else.
I hope this sort of clarifies the purpose of this thread. |
I have No Idea, I think it`s very likely Money related as stated by sauron, but suspect that there are many other factors too, I don`t think a Good
Chemist could be easily persuaded to do this without exceptional circumstances and I also suspect that each of dope dealers has their own sob story
too.
I don`t think you get a person in a home Lab that thinks "What If....?" and then tries it, because they would soon be shut down or killed by gangsters
quickly or recruited if they tried (territory and stuff).
I have a Drug Phobia anyway (I got Spiked once, and fear them now), so I`m prolly NOT best qualified to answer.
but I`ll bet there is no ONE single reason, but rather dozens of excuses.
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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woelen
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| Quote: | I asked for opinions on just what drives regular amateur chemists to start up on drug synthesizing and nothing else.
I hope this sort of clarifies the purpose of this thread. |
I don't think those are regular amateur chemists.
A regular amateur chemist certainly could touch upon something drug-related, but a regular amateur chemist does not synthesize drugs and nothing else.
You could make drugs for personal use (and besides be interested in chemistry in general), but then I still would not call such a person a cook. Sad
if an amateur chemist goes in that direction (I know of one, who tries all kinds of things on himself), but this is quite different from someone, who
makes drugs for the purpose of earning a lot of money with that.
[Edited on 12-9-07 by woelen]
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Sauron
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No matter what their motivations are/were, they (the drug cooks) bring down these draconian laws on all of our heads and brand us all with the bad
name of their kind. Was not the position taken at the start of this thread that the general public and even many of our fellow chemists look askance
on this forum just as they do on dedicated abuse-drug forums?
Over and over again I get the same question from friends who are not chemists: "But what are you making?" In their minds I MUST be making SOMETHING.
They cannot imagine that someone would just want to wander through the carbon universe more or less at random like browsing shelves in a large and
well stocked library. It's beyond their comprehension, they just assume that I must have some APPLIED goal. Nothing could be further from the truth. I
go where the muse of chemistry leads and that's that.
The problem is that the public thinks each and every one os us MUST be making SOMETHING and they fill in the blanks with things they fear: drugs,
explosives, maybe CW. Like the woman who went off at woelen because he mentioned ferriCYANIDE. All she heard was CYANIDE. Like woelen must be
manufacturing Zyklon-B in his garage to supply to the neighborhood neo-Nazis. Hah.
[Edited on 13-9-2007 by Sauron]
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