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symboom
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reaction with Potassium Peroxymonosulfate (oxone)
My new favorite chemical useful in quick isolation of chlorine bromine and iodine just add water :-)
Mixed with sodium chloride made chlorine gas
Mixed with sodium bromide made bromine liquid
Mixed with potassium iodide made solid iodine fast
I guess this makes sence it has an acid and oxidizer
I wonder what would the reactions be with ammonium hydroxide it does make a gas?
Mixed with calcium hypochlorite
I think it makes chlorine dioxide? Am I right
Or chlorine monoxide
If this is true what would form with potassium chlorate
Or perchlorate for that matter
Which is great if you need that was trying to figure a way to mix a salt that gives off oxygen
If mixed with ethanol would it form acetylehyde ethyl acetate or acetic acid how far could it oxidize
Or even acetone would be oxidized to? which I would be afraid of it forming acetone peroxide
[Edited on 15-12-2016 by symboom]
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Melgar
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That seems a very likely route to me, considering the standard synthesis uses sulfuric acid, peroxide, and acetone. Never made it myself, only read
about it, but it's definitely something you want to avoid accidentally making.
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zed
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Well, you might be able to form Acetone Peroxides with Oxone, if you went off the beaten path. I dunno.
The combo of Oxone-Acetone is very good for some known reactions. It can perform some very clever oxidations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyldioxirane
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MeshPL
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I guess you could turn chlorate to perchlorate with oxone. Not a very useful reaction, but if you need perchlorates and onlu have chlorates...
Mixing oxone with calcium hypochlorite may produce... singlet oxygen? If the reaction procedes analogously to simple hydrogen peroxide + hypochlorite
than yes. If differently, than maybe you will get chlorine dioxide, chlorites, chlorates or something. You need to check this, to check singlet oxygen
hypothesis mix reactants in dark, red glow indicates singlet oxygen turning to triplet via chemiluminescent reaction.
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symboom
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Thanks for that I had no idea
Also reaction with methanol and isopropanol
Has no reaction although the methanol became clowdy
Also added water after I saw no reaction thinking that oxone does not desolve well in alcohols many sulfates have that property
MPS is a versatile oxidant. It oxidizes aldehydes to carboxylic acids; in the presence of alcoholic solvents, the esters may be obtained.
[Edited on 3-1-2017 by symboom]
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symboom
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Oxone with isopropanol forms yellow liquid insouble in the solution
I hope this is not a peroxide
also added sodium bicarbonate and noticed a reaction thinking I made sodium acetate also
[Edited on 5-1-2017 by symboom]
[Edited on 5-1-2017 by symboom]
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JJay
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Is oxone available OTC, or do I have to get it from a chem supplier?
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symboom
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Great question oxone is avaliable as non chlorine shock for pools you probally notice ive been experimenting alot with it seeing what its capable of.
Also sodium hydroxide decomposes oxone to oxygen gas
Now this is interesting
Oxone reaction with sodium carbonate oxygen gas produced and noticable heat
Oxone with sodium bicarbonate CO2 produced solution turned colder didn't seem to allow for a brighter burn may have produced oxygen too but not as
much
Oxone and calcium hypochlorite makes oxygen at first because alkalinity decomposes oxone then I think it makes
chlorine dioxide correct me if im wrong.
[Edited on 5-1-2017 by symboom
[Edited on 5-1-2017 by symboom]
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JJay
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Quote: Originally posted by symboom  | Great question oxone is avaliable as non chlorine shock for pools you probally notice ive been experimenting alot with it seeing what its capable of.
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Cool. I usually try to pick up at least one new chemical and a new piece of equipment every month. It looks like this month it will be a burette and
some oxone.
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symboom
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| Quote: Originally posted by MeshPL | I guess you could turn chlorate to perchlorate with oxone. Not a very useful reaction, but if you need perchlorates and onlu have chlorates...
Mixing oxone with calcium hypochlorite may produce... singlet oxygen? |
to answer your question at first it
does produce oxygen but not in the excited state no it does not just a face full of chlorine oxides/chlorine still not sure which.
In the dark I tried your suggestion
Oxone with
sodium hydroxide
Sodium carbonate
Sodium bicarbonate
All decompose oxone with no light produced
Percarbonate with oxone no light produced
Also tried percarbonate oxyclean with calcium hypochlorite no singlet oxygen
I will definatly try to see if it will make perchlorate from chlorate
Thanks for the suggestion.
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symboom
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Update potassium perchlorate from chlorate
It seems that it sodium does form potassium perchlorate I have a percipitate formed after putting it in the freezer anyone that can double check that
this is indead a route to form potassium perchlorate.
Also a beach like smell arises from the mixture and I added
Sodium bicarbonate to the solution after filtering and bubbles form to check if it is acidic then I remembered it could be the persulfate decomposing
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Fantasma4500
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this compound is formed through H2O2 and conc H2SO4 which is then neutralized with potassium carbonate, this means it potentially has properties of
piranha acid, i suppose peroxysulfuric acid could be baited out from its hiding place with some sulfuric acid?
im interested mostly in turning mine into potassium sulfate to use for double displacement reactions, it says on wikipedia that it decomposes in
water, supposedly it loses its oxygen in water?
i poured a bit of 20% NaOH with a scoop of KHSO5 salt and a gas was formed, mysteriously also a bleach like smell (it could have soaked up some HCl
from being stored for so many years next to 37% fuming HCl bottles, this could maybe hint at ClO from HCl? didnt smell very pure chlorine like)
anyhow a gas was formed and a wad of cotton was stuffed in the flask, lit on fire, it lit back up once it got down in the flask making it appear
likely that it does form oxygen upon neutralization, internet suggests somewhere around 5-8% oxygen content (which, mind you is a decent portion for a
solid salt, considering gaseous oxygens density at STP)
i find chlorate to perchlorate <very> unlikely, ferrate - maybe. we have yet to prove that one, alibaba is open for selling 25kg bags of ferrate
the bromine formed, it formed liquid bromine from NaBr sol mixed with KHSO5 sol? this is very noteworthy if true
KHSO5 appears to dissolve copper metal in hot solution, i tried earlier to dissolve copper with NaHSO4 which has a pH of 11 at 1M IIRC, but no luck.
this should leave me with KHSO4, CuSO4 and K2SO4 - in which i could then ppt CuCO3*OH (basic copper carbonate) adding potassium carbonate to it, at
about 20 euro/kg being readily available it has great potential, but for once im gonna attempt to not be too much of a collector
KIO3 to KIO4 which is done with chlorine gas usually should however be doable with KHSO5, KI would as you say form iodine, but so would KI and
chlorine usually? now periodate being 0.17g/100mL 0*C, where K2SO4 is 7.4 would be doable to seperate, KHSO4 easily leeched out with solubility of
36g/100mL at 0
using this oftenly if not always mixed salt that i call "KHSO5", mean to say its about 40% of KHSO5 would prove difficult to accurately calculate
amounts with for reactions
it states that peroxymonosulfate is formed from H2O2 and persulfate - reversing that reaction could be interesting
edit: addition--v
actually KHSO5 and water could decompose followingly:
KHSO5 + H2O = KHSO4 + H2O2
now thats quite something, if you keep water levels very low you could end up with highly concentrated H2O2, 80% combusts on contact with many
organics.
KHSO5 didnt appear to react very much if at all with alcohols, i didnt try very hard however
[Edited on 5-4-2018 by Antiswat]
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symboom
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I let methanol sit for a couple of days and and it turned into paraformydahyde
Here is a post of the experiment
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=71716#...
Im glad to see other try out tge experience and i hope it helps others
Oxone is very powerful oxidizer a mix of an acid and oxidizer
It will generatee chlorine gas from sodium chloride
And calcium hypochlorite and oxone im woried to form chlorine dioxide but hopefully its oxygen
Chlorites with oxone would be interesting
A side thought fluorine gas can form potassium peroxysulfate from potassium sulfate which would be getting oxidized
If that gets you imagination
Solutions can be very concentrated due to both being solids and reaction is started by only water desolving both
[Edited on 5-4-2018 by symboom]
[Edited on 5-4-2018 by symboom]
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AJKOER
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One can activate peroxymonosulfate with mineral rich tap water, or try carbonated mineral water.
Apparently, however, one of the best way to activate peroxydisulfate (PDS) and peroxymonosulfate (PMS) is siderite, (Fe,Mg,Ca,Mn,Zn,Co)CO3, where Fe,
Mn and cobalt are the key metal ions (apparently, a trace of the toxic cobalt ions in the presence of HSO5- is capable of producing the powerful
sulfate radical anion, see "COBALT/PEROXYMONOSULFATE AND RELATED OXIDIZING REAGENTS FOR WATER TREATMENT" a thesis by Georgios P. Anipsitakis, https://etd.ohiolink.edu/rws_etd/document/get/ucin1130533674... ). The ensuing advanced oxidation process can then produce both the usual sulfate
radicals (see https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004313540... ) and the even more powerful hydroxyl radical (see "Activation of Persulfates
Using Siderite as a Source of Ferrous Ions: Sulfate Radical Production, Stoichiometric Efficiency, and Implications", at https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acssuschemeng.7b03948 ).
The siderite functions as a source of Fe2+ (think fenton with KHSO5 replacing H2O2) with the sulfate radicals as the major active radical. In place of
siderite, also consider FeS2 (Fool's Gold, see for example, https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie100740d to which I would also pump in air/O2 to expand possible reactive oxygen species creation. Further,
I would suspect adding the Bravoite variation of Fool's Gold, which contains toxic nickel and cobalt, would be favorable).
Note, the action of the sulfate radical anion, for example, on chloride (or other halogens, in reverse order of their reactivity, so the action on
iodide is faster than with bromide...) proceeds as follows:
.SO4- + Cl- --> SO4= + .Cl
.Cl + .Cl --> Cl2
On hypochlorite:
.SO4- + OCl- --> SO4= + .ClO
.ClO + .ClO --> Cl2O2 or Cl2 + O2
With chlorite, (explosive) chlorine dioxide:
.SO4- + ClO2- --> SO4= + .ClO2
On bicarbonate, the carbonate radical:
HCO3- + .SO4- --> HSO4- + .CO3-
[Edited on 7-4-2018 by AJKOER]
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DavidJR
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Chemplayer did a video on producing bromine from NaBr with a persulphate as the oxidizer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au2Hb6XKohE
I can also confirm from personal experience that NaBr + H2SO4 + H2O2 (i.e. NaBr + piranha solution)
results in very fast evolution of elemental bromine.
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RogueRose
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I found this at a local hardware store as a pool chem, so I looked for some other manufacturers and it seems that many brands list the content as 32 -
64% oxone (depending upon brand), the rest "inactive" ingredients. I did find one that listed 92%+ Potassium Peroxymonosulfate and it was actually
priced better lb/lb than the lower concentrations.
When you were testing your oxone, did you use something from a chem supplier or from pool/spa chemicals? There are a lot of "inactive" ingredients in
the pool chems, some of them containing 8+ compounds in quantities of 3 - 26%. has anyone found a relatively pure supplier of this or brand"?
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XeonTheMGPony
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cheaper ones tend to be purer htt spa chems all list just 9x purity how much that can be trusted how ever
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woelen
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Yesterday I ordered some "Bellaqua Sauerstoff Granulat" from amazon.de. If you look at the MSDS of this stuff, then it only lists one chemical (oxone:
K2SO4.KHSO4.2KHSO5) and in the section about mixtures it tells that it does not apply. So, this must be quite pure stuff. The price is appr. EUR 10
per kg, plus shipping. If you live in Germany, then you just pay a few euros for shipping, I had to pay nealry EUR 14 for shipping  . In NL you cannot buy this stuff anymore, this time not because of environmental
concerns or terrorosm, but because it only is an incomplete treatment of swimming pools and does not kill all bacteria. If people only use oxone, then
they risk trouble with their swimming pools. So, in NL we only can buy complete treatments, being all kinds of variations of chlorine-based products
(TCCA, Na-DCCA, Ca(OCl)2).
I already have very impure oxone, purchased locally as an oxygen treatment for swimming pools many years ago, but that is a blend with two ingredients
(oxone and K2S2O8). I want the pure oxone. I do not know what I will do with the blend. The blend is very stable on storage, and not hygroscopic at
all. It still is as good as when I purchased it. I hope that pure oxone also will be easy on storage.
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zed
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I saw Oxone for sale recently at Walmart.
Much less stock, than in years past.
Seems like Chlorides of Isocyanuric Acid, have become more available. While Oxone is fading away.
Though perhaps, it is just a local phenomena.
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AvBaeyer
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Useful information on the utility of oxone in organic synthesis:
http://reag.paperplane.io/00002385.htm
AvB
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woelen
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I just received oxone this afternoon and did some exploratory tests:
- with solid NaCl and a few drops of water you get chlorine gas
- with solid NaBr and a few drops of water you get bromine. The mix heats up a lot and the bromine boils away as gas and condenses on the glass and
runs back in little drops of liquid. Nice to see this violent reaction.
An interesting reaction occurs with nickel(II) at high pH, which clearly demonstrates the difference with free peroxide:
- Dissolve some nickel sulfate (or the nitrate, but not the chloride) in water.
- In a separate test tube, dissolve quite some NaOH or KOH in water.
- In a third test tube, dissolve some oxone (be sure to have excess hydroxide, relative to the oxone).
- Mix the solution of NaOH or KOH and the solution of oxone. The resulting liquid must be strongly alkaline. You see very fine bubbles of gas (oxygen)
in the solution.
- Add the solution of the nickel(II) salt.
The result is a black precipitate (really black, like carbon black) and a lot of bubbles of gas (oxygen). The precipitate remains black, also when
production of oxygen stops.
A similar control experiment was done with H2O2 instead of oxone:
- Dissolve some NaOH or KOH in water and add a few drops of 10% H2O2.
- In a separate test tube dissolve some nickel sulfate or nickel nitrate.
- Mix the two solutions
The result is a pale green precipitate of Ni(OH)2. No special reaction occurs.
I tried with a very small amount of H2O2 and an excess amount of H2O2, relative to the nickel. The result is the same in both tests.
Finally, I added a few drops of 10% H2O2 to the test tube with the black precipitate. This results in immediate destruction of the black precipitate.
Bubbles of oxygen are produced and the precipitate becomes pale green.
In a final experiment I added the liquid with green precipitate from NiSO4 and H2O2/NaOH solution to the liquid with black precipitate from NiSO4 and
oxone/NaOH solution. This also results in immediate destruction of the black precipitate and only a lot of green nickel(II) hydroxide remains.
So, one can conclude that oxone at high pH and hydrogen peroxide at high pH are very different species, which give totally different reactions with
nickel(II).
A similar result also is obtained with K2S2O8. This also gives a black precipitate with nickel(II) at high pH. This black precipitate also is
destroyed by H2O2.
Interesting stuff and a lot to be investigated: H2O2 vs. S2O8(2-) vs. SO5(2-)
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woelen
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Another interesting experiment with oxone, active ion is HSO5(-), demonstrating the difference with peroxodisulfate, active ion is S2O8(2-).
- Dissolve some AgNO3 in 50% HNO3. The AgNO3 dissolves with difficulty, some heating is required to get a decent amount dissolved.
- Allow the solution to cool down or cool it under a running cold water tap before proceeding further.
- Split the solution in two equal parts.
- To one half of the solution of AgNO3 add a small pinch of oxone: The oxone dissolves, also with some difficulty, the liquid remains colorless.
- To the other half of the solution of AgNO3 add a small pinch of Na2S2O8 or K2S2O8: The solid slowly dissolves and it makes the solution dark brown.
A deep brown nitrato complex of silver(III) is formed.
- To the colorless solution with oxone also add a little Na2S2O8: The solid partly dissolves, the liquid remains colorless.
- To the brown solution with Na2S2O8 add a little oxone: The oxone dissolves and the dark brown color almost instantly disappears. There is production
of a little amount of a colorless gas (most likely this is oxygen).
So, peroxodisulfate gives a brown complex of silver in nitric acid, while oxone does not give such a brown complex. Even more so, the oxone destroys
the brown complex.
It is remarkable that two peroxo sulfates show such different behavior, and also that there is such a difference with H2O2, while both compounds are
said to produce H2O2 when mixed with water. I cannot confirm this in my experiments. E.g. there is no formation of a blue peroxo complex with
chromium(VI) in acidic solution, not with oxone, nor with peroxodisulfate.
[Edited on 12-4-18 by woelen]
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AJKOER
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Woelen:
Some interesting experiments!
------------------------------------------
Also, just came across this study, "Oxone/Co(2+) oxidation as an advanced oxidation process: comparison with traditional Fenton oxidation for
treatment of landfill leachate", by Sun J, Li X, Feng J, Tian X.
My opinion on the use of Oxone/Cobalt(ll) as an AOP has been raised, see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19595430 . To quote:
"From this work, it can be concluded that Oxone/Co(2+) oxidation process demonstrated higher degradation efficiencies of the COD, SS and color for
landfill leachate treatment than that by Fenton oxidation process. "
[Edited on 14-4-2018 by AJKOER]
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Metallus
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| Quote: Originally posted by woelen | Another interesting experiment with oxone, active ion is HSO5(-), demonstrating the difference with peroxodisulfate, active ion is S2O8(2-).
- Dissolve some AgNO3 in 50% HNO3. The AgNO3 dissolves with difficulty, some heating is required to get a decent amount dissolved.
- Allow the solution to cool down or cool it under a running cold water tap before proceeding further.
- Split the solution in two equal parts.
- To one half of the solution of AgNO3 add a small pinch of oxone: The oxone dissolves, also with some difficulty, the liquid remains colorless.
- To the other half of the solution of AgNO3 add a small pinch of Na2S2O8 or K2S2O8: The solid slowly dissolves and it makes the solution dark brown.
A deep brown nitrato complex of silver(III) is formed.
- To the colorless solution with oxone also add a little Na2S2O8: The solid partly dissolves, the liquid remains colorless.
- To the brown solution with Na2S2O8 add a little oxone: The oxone dissolves and the dark brown color almost instantly disappears. There is production
of a little amount of a colorless gas (most likely this is oxygen).
So, peroxodisulfate gives a brown complex of silver in nitric acid, while oxone does not give such a brown complex. Even more so, the oxone destroys
the brown complex.
It is remarkable that two peroxo sulfates show such different behavior, and also that there is such a difference with H2O2, while both compounds are
said to produce H2O2 when mixed with water. I cannot confirm this in my experiments. E.g. there is no formation of a blue peroxo complex with
chromium(VI) in acidic solution, not with oxone, nor with peroxodisulfate.
[Edited on 12-4-18 by woelen] |
The dark brown compound you obtained with reacting AgNO3 with Na2S2O8 is reported to be a mix of silver I
and III oxide with the formula Ag4O4 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver(I,III)_oxide . You saw no formation of this compound with the oxone alone, but observed that adding the oxone
to the brown solution would bleach it. The presence of transition metal ions (such as Ag2+) in solution catalyses the decomposition of the
oxone to give sulfate and oxygen. The brown complex is a mix of Ag I and III, but the compound is solube in nitric acid as Ag2+. This would
explain why you see the decomposition of the oxone when you mix it to the brown complex, but see nothing when it's mixed with the simple
Ag+.
http://www.cruso.es/FICHAS/33Oxone.htm
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279889195_The_free-...
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ic50218a012
As to why the oxone bleaches it, I would innocently think that the H2SO5 behaves as a mix of H2SO4 +
H2O2 where the latter acts as a reductant in those conditions. H2O2 has a very wild behaviour depending on
the situation and this has troubled me very often. However, recently I came across a paper that erased most of my doubts about it.
You have carried out experiments on nickel (II) salts and observed the different behaviours between oxone, H2O2 and
Na2S2O8 in basic medium. I would think that the oxone and peroxodisulfate are strong enough even in basic
environment to oxidize NiII (green) to NiIII (black) but the H2O2 alone might not.
While in acid solution one might even consider H2SO5 (which is the result of acidification of the oxone) to behave as a mix of
H2SO4 + H2O2, in basic solution I'd imagine that the peroxide is "locked" on the sulfate ion, since it's
present as a salt. Afterall oxone is sold as the potassium salt of H2SO5 because it is more stable. This would explain why the
oxone behaves differently from H2O2 in basic solution (where there is no formation of peroxosulfate ion), but similarly in
H2SO4 medium; after all during your last test (the bleaching of the brown complex with H2O2), you had
H2O2 in a solution of HNO3 and sulfate ion SO42- (originating from the reduction of the
Na2S2O8). You have H+, NO3-, HSO4- and
H2O2 + some leftover neutralized salt that remains in solution. Isn't that basically the same situation of an acidified solution
of oxone? This would explain why in acidic environment in the presence of H2SO4 (no matter how it's originated), oxone and
H2O2 give out the same reactions.
There is still one unanswered question: if acidified oxone and piranha solution (H2SO4 + H2O2 mix) are
indeed equivalent as I claim above, why did you observe different reactivity with CrVI (no formation of the blue complex)? In order to
answer this, I'd like to ask some detail about your experiment, because when I was playing with dichromate and hydrogen peroxide back in the days,
there were some situations in which the blue complex would not form at all and the solution would turn instantly green. This usually depended on the
acid concentration or in the order in which I added the reactants (e.g. 1 drop of H2O2 in a pool of acidified dichromate or
viceversa).
By the way, something we can certainly agree on is that the peroxodisulfate is another beast and behaves very differently (e.g. it works perfectly
even in neutral solution and is way more stable than it may look like. Even its reactions aren't as violent as the ones you get with classic
oxidizers)
[Edited on 19-4-2018 by Metallus]
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AJKOER
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Apparently, H2SO5 behaving like a mix of H2O2 + H2SO4 can be a problem as H2O2 can interact with H2SO5 in the presence of select metals like platinum.
See discussion at https://www.researchgate.net/post/Can_water_be_a_reducing_ag... , and in particular reference to, “The effect of colloidal platinum on mixtures
of Caro’s per-sulphuric acid with hydrogen peroxide.” by Thomas Slater Price and John Albert Newton Friend, Proc. Chem. Soc., London, 1904, 20,
173-212 (p 187).
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