| Pages:
1
2
3
..
10 |
hissingnoise
International Hazard
Posts: 3940
Registered: 26-12-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pulverulescent!
|
|
The Strange Fate of a Person Falling into a Black Hole
Whatever the circumstances, at some point we all find ourselves confronted with the age-old question: what happens when you fall into a black hole?
|
|
|
IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
Member Is Offline
Mood: Discovering
|
|
I thought it was a combination of April 15th and groundhog day repeating forever?
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
Try to find a scientific way to imagine/explain this...
The closest thing to a galaxy is what? An atom.
What happens when you collapse an atom under immense pressure?
What happens when you break atomic bonds with immense vacuum?
These are both theoretical questions so IF you can conceive of a way to make each of these real, what would happen?
Mr. Blogfast, and some other random folks believe that a black hole is created/supported by immense gravity. Nice idea.
I believe (apparently I am alone on this) that a black hole is created / supported by vacuum. Nicer idea.
If you can find a way to make each of these into "models" using an atom as the solar system, what would happen, and why.
I have ten bucks PayPal for the best thought out explanation for each concept. Seriously! Get them both made into models, and get both prizes.
Give it until June first. If more time is needed, just say so.
[Edited on 5-27-2015 by Zombie]
[Edited on 5-27-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
I need an infinite amount of time, so please invest the 10 bucks wisely so it holds it's value until then.
|
|
|
MrHomeScientist
International Hazard
Posts: 1806
Registered: 24-10-2010
Location: Flerovium
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What evidence leads you to conclude black holes are created by a/the vacuum?
Also, 'pressure' and 'vacuum' aren't things with an independent existence; pressure is caused by lots of atoms banging around in a space, and
vacuum is caused by a lack of atoms therein. So asking what would happen to an atom under "immense pressure" means you are asking what would happen to
an atom under lots of collisions with other atoms. "Immense vacuum" would be with no atoms around. Both have limits - maximum pressure would be
defined by how many atoms you can squeeze into one spot (see degeneracy pressure that I mention below), and maximum vacuum would be the absence of any
other atoms in the space of concern. Just wanted to clarify that.
An "immense vacuum" would do basically nothing to an atom. It is being held together by the strong and electromagnetic forces for the nucleus and
electrons, respectively. With no force trying to pull it apart, the atom will stay happily stable.
But perhaps you are referring to the expansion of the universe? If the accelerating expansion of space continues indefinitely, eventually we'll reach
a point where the force in the tiny space between the electrons and the nucleus will overcome the electromagnetic attraction, and the electrons will
go flying away. The same for the nucleus, at a later time, and the nucleons themselves at an even later time. In that case, the force affecting the
atom comes from dark energy (whatever that turns out to be).
Under "immense pressure", I imagine a neutron star would be a good example. The gravity there is so great that electrons and protons combine to form
neutrons, and then neutron degeneracy pressure stops further collapse. In this case, the massive gravity of all of the star's atoms trying to crush
together forms the force that affects the atom. If the mass is great enough the star will further collapse into a black hole, turning the atom into
who-knows-what. A quark-gluon plasma, perhaps? You can keep asking "But what if there is more pressure?" but at some point we have to admit we simply
don't know at this time.
Interestingly, the fate of an atom under 'immense pressure' and 'immense vacuum' (caused by cosmological expansion) might be the same, now that I
think about it as I'm writing. Ripping nucleons apart via expansion would probably lead to free quarks, just like the quark-gluon plasma final state
of crushing nucleons via gravity! But that's just my intuition, after just a few minutes of thought. Who knows what the reality is?
[Edited on 5-27-2015 by MrHomeScientist]
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Well, nobody does.
It's a fun passtime to speculate though.
Personally i find the fascination with Black Holes a bit odd.
They're just 1 of the many inexplicable observed phenomena.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
N-O-T-H-I-N-G. (No 'bonds' broken)
"Immense" vacuum no exist, No Sirreeh. Absolute vacuum only 101325 Pa lower than atmosphere on Earth, or bubble in moonshine mash.
Dispatches from Reality to Zombie's Consiousness<sup>*</sup>. Over and Out.
<sup>*</sup> Like a broken teevee, ZC sometimes needs a whack on the head to get the pixure back. 
[Edited on 27-5-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  |
Also, 'pressure' and 'vacuum' aren't things with an independent existence; pressure is caused by lots of atoms banging around in a space, and
vacuum is caused by a lack of atoms therein. So asking what would happen to an atom under "immense pressure" means you are asking what would happen to
an atom under lots of collisions with other atoms. "Immense vacuum" would be with no atoms around. Both have limits - maximum pressure would be
defined by how many atoms you can squeeze into one spot (see degeneracy pressure that I mention below), and maximum vacuum would be the absence of any
other atoms in the space of concern. Just wanted to clarify that.
MrHomeScientist] |
Take these concepts beyond their "limits" I have said these two phrases before...
Infinite pressure, and perfect vacuum.
Where would the atoms go? When is there nothing? when is there everything so dense that not even light can escape?
These BOTH describe a potential black hole, don't they?
What IF one is the other?
The rest of your post!!! 
| Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist |
Interestingly, the fate of an atom under 'immense pressure' and 'immense vacuum' (caused by cosmological expansion) might be the same, now that I
think about it as I'm writing. Ripping nucleons apart via expansion would probably lead to free quarks, just like the quark-gluon plasma final state
of crushing nucleons via gravity! But that's just my intuition, after just a few minutes of thought. Who knows what the reality is?
[Edited on 5-27-2015 by MrHomeScientist] |
[Edited on 5-27-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aga | Well, nobody does.
It's a fun passtime to speculate though.
Personally i find the fascination with Black Holes a bit odd.
They're just 1 of the many inexplicable observed phenomena. |
It may be of more relevance to know why a homeless person will give his food or his last dollar to someone worse off than himself vs a successful
person walking past both, and saying "i don't have any change" but that one pisses me off.
Wouldn't you like to be the guy that changed the way black holes are theorized about?
Hawkins won't last forever, neither will his theories. No disrespect meant!
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
N-O-T-H-I-N-G. (No 'bonds' broken)
"Immense" vacuum no exist, No Sirreeh. Absolute vacuum only 101325 Pa lower than atmosphere on Earth, or bubble in moonshine mash.
Dispatches from Reality to Zombie's Consiousness<sup>*</sup>. Over and Out.
<sup>*</sup> Like a broken teevee, ZC sometimes needs a whack on the head to get the pixure back.
[Edited on 27-5-2015 by blogfast25] |
"Immense" vacuum was the wrong word. Perfect vacuum is all we can measure. Not good for this purpose either...
Go further. Go to where the atom is torn apart. Absolute vacuum?
Play along with me on this. You're smart enough to imagine what I am saying, and what COULD potentially happen.
One is a vacuum, and one is pressure. In either event there is an event horizon. The same for what was that "minimum" term? That's there too.
Use your imagination to make the concepts work. That's what every one of these famous theorists have done, and are doing.
Make it work, and I will release control of your television. We are exploring the Outer Limits!
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
Take a sheet of paper (space time fabric). One side is the pressure, and the other is the vacuum! In the center... they are one or neither. In MY not
so humble opinion it explains every know law in one event!
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Nah.
Way off.
The fabric of the universe isn't understood at all.
No matter how much Paper is applied, it remains a mystery.
Partly because we're the same stuff, looking at it from as many angles as we can, yet always from within.
[Edited on 27-5-2015 by aga]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie |
"Immense" vacuum was the wrong word. Perfect vacuum is all we can measure. Not good for this purpose either...
Go further. Go to where the atom is torn apart. Absolute vacuum?
Play along with me on this. You're smart enough to imagine what I am saying, and what COULD potentially happen.
One is a vacuum, and one is pressure. In either event there is an event horizon. The same for what was that "minimum" term? That's there too.
Use your imagination to make the concepts work. That's what every one of these famous theorists have done, and are doing.
Make it work, and I will release control of your television. We are exploring the Outer Limits! |
Ok but no more Faux Noise, ok?
You can tear atoms apart by high temperature which is kind of equavalent to HIGH pressure.
Vacuum is merely absence of matter, like cold is absence of heat.
Event horizon? That concept only applies to Black Holes, AFAIK. Do you understand it? Cos it ain't simple, you know? I'm not sure I fully undertstand
it.
Re. black holes, we believe they are formed when immense, immense, immense areas of matter collapse in on themselves. The intense pressure builds
near-infinite gravity and Einstein then says: 'all time stops' and Known Laws of Universe break down: SINGULARITY (Yay!!!!)       <==
representation of one Scientist driven out of his mind by thinking about it.
[Edited on 27-5-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
I can't shake the feeling that Einstein used the term 'Singularity' to mean Himself.
My few trips into the closer black holes have shown them to be unremarkable.
Certainly no 'other side', 'other dimensions' or 'parallel universes' going on.
V4641 Sgr has a Fiat Panda in it (old model) trapped at tEh+1.03298 which is unusual, but not astounding.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Did you meet G-D there? Can you tell 'Im "Ello from an agnostic"? And what's the meaning of the expression "road to Hell"?
[Edited on 27-5-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Didn't meet anyone at any time or space point in any of the bh's explored.
Seems there's just us Apes in this universe.
Strange nobody took the Neodymium magnet thing further.
Extracting the Nd was just the starting point to building the Infinite Improbability Drive.
[Edited on 27-5-2015 by aga]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aga |
V4641 Sgr has a Fiat Panda in it (old model) trapped at tEh+1.03298 which is unusual, but not astounding. |
Besides, it was tEh+1.03297, not tEh+1.03298, so there.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Strange way to dispose of a Fiat Panda.
Scrap Yard would be a bit mundane though, so i get the general gist of your thinking.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
You can tear atoms apart by high temperature which is kind of equavalent to HIGH pressure.
Vacuum is merely absence of matter, like cold is absence of heat.
Event horizon? That concept only applies to Black Holes, AFAIK. Do you understand it? Cos it ain't simple, you know? I'm not sure I fully undertstand
it.
|
Good... Pressure itself creates heat. Just like compressed air. All you have to do is compress it, and you in turn get heat.
One factor you left out is as pressure goes up so do boiling points. What happens if you take a block of say steel, and keep building the pressure?
Infinitely!
Compare that to one atom of steel.
We all grasp that everything is mostly empty space. What happens when the pressure is so immense that the empty space is completely removed? What does
that atom become? Certainly not God! I can only imagine that the atom in question would become a constant source of energy trying to escape. Similar
to magnetic energy only infinite IF that state could be maintained.
In MY mind I see the black hole theory as backwards. Compressing matter so densely would create SOOOOO much heat that it would be completely different
than we speculate. The concept that the heat can not escape can not be correct. It would take MORE than my speculated infinite pressure. It would take
a removal of matter altogether.
That removal requires a place to go/be!
Absolute vacuum! A complete dispersion of compacted matter.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
I Don't.
From my perspective there is no 'Space' if there is no 'Matter' : they are observable parts of the same system.
With no matter to occupy it, there is no space, and vice versa.
Matter, Space and Time are one in the same thing (along with the others).
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie |
Good... Pressure itself creates heat. Just like compressed air. All you have to do is compress it, and you in turn get heat.
One factor you left out is as pressure goes up so do boiling points. What happens if you take a block of say steel, and keep building the pressure?
Infinitely!
Compare that to one atom of steel.
We all grasp that everything is mostly empty space. What happens when the pressure is so immense that the empty space is completely removed? What does
that atom become? Certainly not God! I can only imagine that the atom in question would become a constant source of energy trying to escape. Similar
to magnetic energy only infinite IF that state could be maintained.
In MY mind I see the black hole theory as backwards. Compressing matter so densely would create SOOOOO much heat that it would be completely different
than we speculate. The concept that the heat can not escape can not be correct. It would take MORE than my speculated infinite pressure. It would take
a removal of matter altogether.
That removal requires a place to go/be!
Absolute vacuum! A complete dispersion of compacted matter.
|
One big problem you have is that we don't really know what 'matter' is. We tend to go by matter as we observe it on Earth.
Look up: 'density of the core of the Sun'.
[Edited on 27-5-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
4
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aga |
I Don't.
From my perspective there is no 'Space' if there is no 'Matter' : they are observable parts of the same system.
With no matter to occupy it, there is no space, and vice versa.
Matter, Space and Time are one in the same thing (along with the others). |
Were actually pretty close on concepts. This may be where the deep end begins.
If you remove ALL matter ie: absolute vacuum does that space vanish? Where did it go?
Is that the same space as infinite pressure? What happens when you compress space so tightly? does that vanish as well? Where did it go?
Perhaps they are one in the same, and all laws apply in that "space yet none can exist because there is nothing...
Try to find one law that could not apply in such a perfect state.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aga |
From my perspective there is no 'Space' if there is no 'Matter' : they are observable parts of the same system.
With no matter to occupy it, there is no space, and vice versa.
|
Wrong. Even empty space EXISTS. Time runs through it and the Law of the Universe apply in it.
[Edited on 27-5-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
One big problem you have is that we don't really know what 'matter' is. We tend to go by matter as we observe it on Earth.
Look up: 'density of the core of the Sun'.
[Edited on 27-5-2015 by blogfast25] |
Well that is what we are going to figure out. Keep it on an atomic level, and keep the comparison to our galaxy.
Take a planet, and its moon(s) compared to one atom
Compress it infinitely or expand it to nothing.
See my above post to Mr. Aga...
[Edited on 5-27-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
..
10 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
