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Cou
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I'm getting the texas DPS permit for glassware
I decided I would rather get the permit for glassware, than always live in fear of a SWAT team breaking in at 3 AM. Has anyone here had experience
with this permit, and where can I read more about it? I've heard that it takes 60 days for the permit process to complete, but I'm not sure about
this. And even home chemists can get it, not just businesses. You have to let DPS officers inspect your lab area before getting the permit, and the
permit only applies for one glassware order, where you must list the quantities of every piece of glassware. This means that if you need another
glassware, and you want to order more, you have to send another form. No, I can't just move out of Texas, because college is cheaper with state
residence. The permit also applies to controlled substances like red phosphorus (https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RegulatoryServices/narcotics/narcprecursor.htm). Not sure how it would work with other useful substances on DEA
lists, such as acetic anhydride and acetone, but I might find this out when they call me (one user on this board got a phone call when getting this
permit, and they said that he had to have a locked cabinet to keep the glassware in, for which DPS officers were sent to make sure that he had one).
Yes, the bureaucracy is strong here. But I need to do some official research in organic chemistry, which would help me get in college.
On a random side note, can someone recommend a good organic glassware set I can order online?
[Edited on 4-4-2015 by Cou]
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Magpie
lab constructor
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Quote: Originally posted by Cou  | ... (one user on this board got a phone call when getting this permit, and they said that he had to have a locked cabinet to keep the glassware in,
for which DPS officers were sent to make sure that he had one)....
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That's encouraging. This, in a way, is giving tacit approval of a home chemistry lab. I don't recall ever hearing of this before.
In the EU they now have a permit process for obtaining proscribed chemicals. But it doesn't look like any home chemist well ever get the permit.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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gdflp
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This is interesting, now I'm curious as to whether the DEA has a similar license. Technically I suppose that if you buy a heating
mantle, then you aren't breaking the law as they misspelled it.
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Cou
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Permit doesn't do much good though, when I need a vacuum filtration apparatus, and those are so expensive that only high schools have them. But
wait... can't do chemistry at high school, outside of in-class labs that are part of the curriculum. Cause you don't want kids showing actual interest
in a subject like chemistry outside of just making good grades... that is the sign of a FUTURE TERRORIST! 
[Edited on 4-4-2015 by Cou]
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aga
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Avoid owning a heating Mantulé.
They work great, yet you can get by just fine without one.
A Permit will put you in a strange position, in that you'll be on a List.
Anything Odd happens, even remotely related to chemistry, guess where they will go look.
The Park ? The local Mall ? No. The List of known people with chemistry stuff.
Personally i think that the Authorities are doing less than their Best to detect and control wrong-doers, and that the systems being put in place will
simply distract them from detecting criminals, and waste a lot of time and money.
On the other hand, if you do not register, then you'll look a lot more like a wrong-doer in the event that you get raided.
It's a choice : believe in yourself and your freedoms, or believe in the systems designed to remove your freedoms.
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Magpie
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I don't live in Texas (thank Science) but if I did I wouldn't apply for the permit for the reasons aga mentioned.
(...all my ex's live in Texas...)
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Zombie
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Give Texas back to Mexico, and move all the Texans to New Jersey.
What's fair is fair.
Oh yeah... Get the permit. but you can't. Minors can not hold state permits.
Chemistry is trying to drive you insane Cou. I'd switch to computer science if I were you.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Cou
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | Give Texas back to Mexico, and move all the Texans to New Jersey.
What's fair is fair.
Oh yeah... Get the permit. but you can't. Minors can not hold state permits.
Chemistry is trying to drive you insane Cou. I'd switch to computer science if I were you. |
My parents are getting the permit, not me.
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Zombie
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I am still not sure that will cover allowing YOU access. I would be sure to verify this.
I'm not trying to discourage you Cou but once you do get involved with State, and Federal agencies... They share info.
Something you or your parents may not have considered is LOCAL fire codes for storing chemicals, and Home Owners Insurance NOT covering your home in
the event of a chemical accident.
Receiving a cancellation notice from the Insc. company may just be an un-expected result of obtaining said permit.
I went thru all of this when I started dreaming of a home lab.
The easiest hurdle was having to add a second means of egress from the lab. (door to back yard). The toughest was dealing with "The good hands
people".
Going legit means there are a lot more "I"s to cross, and "T"s to dot.
[Edited on 4-4-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Cou
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Well, I have no other choice.
Doing actual research on an obscure compound such as isopropyl salicylate, or the other higher salicylates, and publishing the info, would REALLY help
with getting in college. Colleges like to see students who really like academia, and aren't just high-grade asians without personalities.
But the catch is that while doing chemistry research is easier in college, it's damn difficult and embarrassing to try to get access to a high
school's CHEMISTRY LAB outside of an in-class lab due to fears of "16 year olds playing around with acids and blowing stuff up". So that's a catch 22,
doing chemistry research on a subject you're passionate about will help you get in college, especially if you make all 100s in HS chemistry classes,
like me but you can't do chemistry at all if you aren't IN college.
It's possible to do at home, but then you have to pay for all the glassware yourself...
Vacuum filtration can only be done in a school laboratory.
[Edited on 4-4-2015 by Cou]
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Magpie
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At my local community college high school students (might have to be seniors) can take college classes if they qualify. My college offers 1 credit
courses in chemistry that are research projects. Does your local community college have such offerings?
[Edited on 4-4-2015 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Cou
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My high school does have IB chemistry, which I will be taking next year. I hear that they make their own labs, but I'm not sure exactly how they work.
Will find out next year.
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Chemosynthesis
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For lab equipment?
It's normally just forms for restricted precursors or drugs, which do depend on your education/licensing/facility, but not for apparati themselves.
They watch some purchases such as tablet machines/presses and sometimes large purchases or rotovaps or whatever if they are deemed suspicious.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cou | Colleges like to see students who really like academia, and aren't just high-grade asians without personalities.
[Edited on 4-4-2015 by Cou] |
You have to learn something else Cou. Or maybe I should say UN-Learn.
I like you vigor Cou but no one likes hate. Try to work on this ok!
You never know where your real friends may come from.
[Edited on 4-5-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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gdflp
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| Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis |
For lab equipment?
It's normally just forms for restricted precursors or drugs, which do depend on your education/licensing/facility, but not for apparati themselves.
They watch some purchases such as tablet machines/presses and sometimes large purchases or rotovaps or whatever if they are deemed suspicious.
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No, I meant for some of the List I chems that are difficult to synthesize in experimental quantities. The
only chemical I personally find to be difficult is red phosphorus, but others may have issues due to local availability, or lack thereof, of other
non-watched compounds e.g. iodides
I suppose that since buying red phosphorus is not illegal(to my knowledge), but will put you on a list regardless of having a license, going through
the hassle of getting a license is futile. On the other hand, you may be on a less suspicious list if you get the license, but unfortunately I don't
know the internal workings of the DEA, so this is just a guess.
[Edited on 4-5-2015 by gdflp]
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Cou
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Getting a permit will put you on a watch list for sure. But would you rather have a certain chance of getting a knock on the door from the police, or
getting on the watch list the hard way, when a SWAT team gets a call from the neighbors and breaks your door down at 3 AM with guns at your head?
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Zombie
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I'd rather be trampled by turtles.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Texium
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Ok. Lots of stuff to say about this thread.
Cou: Please read this carefully and consider it, rather than tossing it aside with a one-liner, as I've put a lot of thought into it.
I would recommend that you don't get the permit. I considered it once last year long and hard, but decided not to. I thought about all of the
implications, such as how it would draw attention to me by getting me put on a list, and all of the paperwork I'd have to deal with, as well as having
to let an officer walk around in my lab and inspect everything. It would be so much of a gamble. What if they just decided to not give me a permit,
seize all of my glassware that I already have, and then arrest me? Or my parents? No. Don't apply for the permit. Instead, just act normally about it.
You can still buy equipment listed on that list with no problems. They don't actually track all of the sales unless they are between a seller and
buyer that are both in Texas. (I tried ordering from Capitol Scientific, a supplier in Austin, and they wouldn't let me without a permit). Despite
that, ordering from out of state is no problem. I've ordered tons of stuff from Elemental Scientific and Cynmar with no issues or questions asked. As
for the precursor list, most of it is so specific and non-useful for the majority of us, that if you did get raided, it would be very unlikely that
you'd get taken, as they'd probably only get truly suspicious if you had a combination of precursor chemicals and apparatus. Interact normally with
people. Tell people that you do home chemistry, and talk about what you do like it's the most normal thing in the world (because it should be!). Don't
ever bring up the legal implications. Although it may feel cool to say "Yeah... technically I could be charged with, like, three felonies..." that's
what will make normal people feel nervous about your hobby. If you end up getting busted, you won't have the sympathy of people you know working for
you, because they'll think you deserved it. When you've been warm and open to people about chemistry, and shown them what sort of interesting stuff
you've done, you're sure to have some support if you ever get into any trouble (which is still very unlikely).
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Cou
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| Quote: Originally posted by zts16 | | What if they just decided to not give me a permit, seize all of my glassware that I already have, and then arrest me? Or my parents?
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Not trying to argue, but you are supposed to get the permit before ordering glassware, not while you already have it. Having glassware before getting
the permit approved would indeed be reason for an arrest. I don't see how they could arrest you if you apply for the permit, and they come check, but
you don't have anything on the precursor substances/equipment list. I don't have any glassware right now.
[Edited on 5-4-2015 by Cou]
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Texium
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cou | | Quote: Originally posted by zts16 | | What if they just decided to not give me a permit, seize all of my glassware that I already have, and then arrest me? Or my parents?
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Not trying to argue, but you are supposed to get the permit before ordering glassware, not while you already have it. Having glassware before getting
the permit approved would indeed be reason for an arrest. I don't see how they could arrest you if you apply for the permit, and they come check, but
you don't have anything on the precursor substances/equipment list. I don't have any glassware right now. |
Should have figured that you'd focus on some stupid detail like that. I already had glassware because I was not aware of the law
when I made my first couple of orders. My real point was that there is no good reason to go through the rigamarole of obtaining this permit as an
individual minor, because there is very low likelihood that you will need it if you don't go around actively drawing negative attention to yourself.
Now can you actually reply to the main substance of the post that I spent a long time typing rather than nitpicking my past uninformed decisions?
Thanks.
[Edited on 4-5-2015 by zts16]
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Aquakidney
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Cou,
You're putting yourself through the wringer for nothing here. If you're doing all this so you can pad a college application, don't waste your time.
No college on earth expects a freshman to have published original research.
I graduated high school with a less-than-spectacular GPA of 3.4 and absolutely ZERO official extracurriculars. But I had taken a few AP classes and
did particularly well on the ACT. Based on that, the local state university gave me a full scholarship. (The place is no dump, either, with an
international reputation in chemistry, CS and genetics.)
If you want to get into college, take challenging classes, hit the books, and keep your nose clean. If you want to distinguish yourself, find some
artistic hobby you like and pursue it seriously, e.g., learn to play an instrument. If you're really interested in science, let your science teachers
know that by working hard for them and not being a dick in class. When the time comes, they'll probably be happy to write letters of recommendation
for you. And whatever you do, do not apply for that permit. Dow and Baker-Hughes can afford a legal department to deal with bureaucratic nightmares;
you and your parents cannot.
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Magpie
lab constructor
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Wow, in my day a 3.4 would have been a very good GPA, verging on outstanding. Grade inflation has certainly taken over.
I read in the Wall Street Jungle that in my day 20% of the students had an "A average." Now, 50% do. I guess students have really gotten smart in
the interim! What we won't do to build up egos, avoid parental complaining, and "get into a great college." 
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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We have colleges in other states, too.
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Chemosynthesis
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| Quote: Originally posted by gdflp | | Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis |
For lab equipment?
It's normally just forms for restricted precursors or drugs, which do depend on your education/licensing/facility, but not for apparati themselves.
They watch some purchases such as tablet machines/presses and sometimes large purchases or rotovaps or whatever if they are deemed suspicious.
|
No, I meant for some of the List I chems that are difficult to synthesize in experimental quantities. The
only chemical I personally find to be difficult is red phosphorus, but others may have issues due to local availability, or lack thereof, of other
non-watched compounds e.g. iodides
I suppose that since buying red phosphorus is not illegal(to my knowledge), but will put you on a list regardless of having a license, going through
the hassle of getting a license is futile. On the other hand, you may be on a less suspicious list if you get the license, but unfortunately I don't
know the internal workings of the DEA, so this is just a guess.
[Edited on 4-5-2015 by gdflp] |
Oh. You would at least need a Form 510. I don't recall the limitations, as there are exemptions (usually government and law enforcement), but it's a
part of Bulk Chemical Manufacturing Reports. The division has its own email: BCMReports@usdoj.gov
It's all contingent on meeting state/local permits, and there are odd quirks about different arbitrary categories of precursors not overlapping, so
you may need multiple forms of the same type for different chemicals (phosphorus actually has some unique exemptions attached). It's a huge,
bureaucratic pain in the ass that applies with precursors, drugs (different forms for them), etc. But it's legal.
Edit: This is just for manufacture without complete internal use (expected distribution). Importation requires different paperwork. I actually don't
know what form you would need for manufacture and complete internal consumption. I should look into that. You do still need to report quotas of some
kind for records, so it's unfortunately not a complete exemption for hobby use. Of course, if you just purchase the chemical elsewhere, the records
and reporting onus is on them, so it is somewhat more convenient.
[Edited on 6-4-2015 by Chemosynthesis]
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Zombie
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I think Cou is just happy to be dramatic.
You're most likely a 43 year old living in your parents attic.
No offense bro but enough is enough. I thought you would be too busy, what with life long Gamma scans to attend university anyway. Enough!
Bigotry, chemophopia, cancer scares, fumed to death by metal vapors, dis-respect for law enforcement, dis-respect for teaching institutions /
teachers, disrespect for class-mates, ect...
I'm starting to think you are not who or what you claim to be.
Maybe a chat room is better suited to your banter.
I have NO RIGHT to direct anyone in any direction. Especially here at S.M. BUT~~~ reading dozens of posts attempting to help you, it appears you do
not want or desire help.
You want DRAMA.
Are you really the "resident troll" guy? Did you figure out how to use a stationary proxy?
My 28yo daughter calls me "The Child Abuse Super Hero". She does this because I Love to help kids, and have no fear of adults. In my experience (28
years) kids always respond positively. They say "Thanks" for the advice. They say "Someday I will return the kindness".
You always say NOTHING. You just move along to the next dramatic issue.
Me personally... done!
Sorry to all the members for ranting at a "kid".
Cou, If you are a kid, I owe you an apology. I hope you change your life for the better.
If you're not a kid... I hope your life changes for the better.
.If you have lived 40 some years (as I suspect) it's sad.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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