| Pages:
1
2
3 |
xxxxx
Hazard to Others
Posts: 116
Registered: 21-5-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
1908 siberia explosion
there have been speculations that the 1908 siberia explosion was caused by a chunk of antimatter. the problem i have with this idea is that space is
not entirely empty. i was wondering how far a piece of antimatter one meter in diameter and specific gravity of 1.00 could travel through interstellar
space before it was completly neutralized by the miniscule quantities of hydrogen present in interstellar space, but i don't have the information to
calculate the variables.
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5126
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If it were antimatter there would still be leftover radioactivity. There isn't so it wasn't.
If you had a lump of antimater flying through space the energy released by destroying less than a thousandth of it would spread the rest out into a
vapour cloud with a bigger area. This would then hit even more normal matter...
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
IIRC, it was a small comet that collided with earths atmosphere under a shallow angle.
The explosion has been the subject of numerous conspiracy theories though, the Tesla experiment is one of them.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
neutrino
International Hazard
Posts: 1583
Registered: 20-8-2004
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: oscillating
|
|
>If you had a lump of antimater flying through space the energy released by destroying less than a thousandth of it would spread the rest out into
a vapour cloud with a bigger area. This would then hit even more normal matter...
Outer space is a very high vacuum. Slow heating due to matter / antimatter collisions would probably reach an equilibrium of sorts with blackbody
radiation. Granted, near the Earth's atmosphere it would probably fly apart, but in the vacuum of interstellar space I imagine it would be quite
stable.
edit: Now I can't stop thinking about how the math of this works out...
I'm sure I'll have something tomorrow.
Chemistry ... astronomy ... physics ... calculus ... brain overload...
[Edited on 14-6-2006 by neutrino]
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5126
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Typically the amount of heat needed to vaporise something is very small compared to the heat released by anihilation.
So, on a long time scale the heat would destroy it unless the heat is radiated away.
At the exact location where the mass was destroyed there would be a couple of gammas produced. Statistically, one of these will plough into the rest
of the antimatter. I guess it's possible that this energy would get a chance to be lost before it built up enough to boil the stuff, but some stuff
will be spalled off into space.
Of course, because it's in a ludicrously high vacuum, the boiling point would be a lot lower than normal too.
(OK, I don't know what happens with proton + antiproton reactions but it won't be any more gentle)
How good is the vacuum in interstellar space? (and how does anyone know?)
|
|
|
JohnWW
International Hazard
Posts: 2849
Registered: 27-7-2004
Location: New Zealand
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
As I recall, it happened on 22 May 1908, in a very remote and uninhabited area of Sibera in imperial Russia. It flattened trees for 50 or more miles
around, the direction of the fallen trees (many of which still remain, due to the cold climate) indicating the epicenter of impact, although there
was no impact crater. Rivers in the area (which were still partly frozen at that time of year near their Arctic Ocean mouths, which frequently causes
flooding upstream) burst their banks. I read somewhere that eyewitnesses who saw the object just before it exploded said it was "shuttle-shaped", i.e.
a long cylinder. For days after the explosion, the sky was luminous at night in northern Europe and Asia and North America. I have also read that
explorers who found and examined the epicenter of the explosion years afterwards found that the pattern of fallen trees indicated a shallow-angle path
for the object, and that small spherules of metal (unspecified) were found in the area. An explosion of an alien UFO is one of the other postulated
causes.
|
|
|
lordmagnus
Hazard to Self
Posts: 92
Registered: 10-1-2006
Location: Webster, TX
Member Is Offline
Mood: No longer annoyed ( I found a new girlfriend)
|
|
Explosion of a UFO is where the anti-matter idea came from, the ships power core containment failed as it broke up in our atmosphere (think of the
COLUMBIA when the plasma infiltrated the inner hull). There has also been some theories of alien ship remains in that area, I think FATE magazine once
had article about local indians exploring the area after the explosion, and the found odd mechaincal remains, after sleeping the night there many
developed rashes, and burns on their skin (radiation exposure), the soviets supposedly tested some nuclear warheads in that area as well, and the
explosive yeild was way more tahn it should have been, (secondary fission, something fissionable was exposed to fast nuetrons {soviet warhead} and had
an additional effect on the test). Then there is the BPRD's stance on it, it was the obolisk that the OGDRU'Jihad sent to earth for HELLBOY to unlock
(with the right hand of doom), so they could be freed from their crystal prison.
I\'ll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he is gonna start a fair fight, or if he\'s bothrn me allot, or if I am getin payed good, or probably
over a good woman.
-Jayne Cobb (Serenity) |
|
|
IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
Member Is Offline
Mood: Discovering
|
|
Antimatter is never going to be used for star travel. Any race smart enough to travel the stars will not be stupid enough to run out of gas around the
galactic core. No antimatter gas stations anywhere. If such races existed or in general if any race contemplated star travel, I have no doubt the
energy source for multi parsec distance trips is going to be fundamentally different than any science we know or have conceived of, except possibly
for some kind of zero point generator. In short anyone smart enough to build such a ship is going to be smart enough to use an energy supply that does
not need a refill anywhere in the universe unless there is always a reserve to make it from one point to a source of a fill up. What if the antimatter
containment hit a rock while 4 wheeling? Even if the hole was patched they would still likely run out of gas, unless of course the leaking antimatter
blew up the ship.
The entire concept of antimatter power in a starship is nothing more than a leftover mindset of the 60's from the Star Trek fame. Just as in the 40's
and 50's atomic rockets were the dream. In effect the theories always reflect current science and therefore never work. Anyone remember the klystron
modulator to call home to earth from Altair in the 1956 "Forbidden Planet"? Clearly in 1956 the idea of a klystron seemed futuristic to writers and so
was the device of choice at this timeframe in our history. In the face of sheer distance, interstellar travel is not possible for us since our science
is crap. We cannot even build a battery worth shit. Since zero point energy would be available anywhere in creation it makes sense to use it, no need
for fuel stops anywhere. I did not even bring up the energy needs to maintain life support, an even bigger problem minus an inexaustable power source.
Any science capable of interstellar flight is going to include somthing like zero point energy as well as gravity neutralization, meaning the ship
could just descend or hover or whatever. Just the sheer logic of my statements here negates the possibility of an antimatter explosion from an alien
craft.
I tend to think something more along the lines of nature itself took place (some physical law or fact of nature as yet unknown to us?). Since we
really do not know all about black holes (or even if they really exist?) there could be physical properties to say a mini black hole which would allow
it to explode when striking the earth. Antimatter is quite simply impossible (as stated no radiation was around to give evidence either), the moment a
chunk of it hit a few molecules several hundred miles up, sheer radiation pressure from the anhilating matter would vaporize the whole chunk hundreds
of miles up, long before even the lower atmosphere was reached a huge explosion would have taken place leaving nothing to fall even as low as the
bottom of the ionosphere. In short I vote for a quantum black hole explosion, either above ground or at impact (one coated with debris from
interstellar flight which temporarily shielded it upon re-entry?).
Whether the mini hole was the engine core of a Romulan ship remains to be seen. As for me I love Star Trek but do not buy into it so I am for the
physical reality explanation meaning some new to us quirk of nature was the cause.
|
|
|
lordmagnus
Hazard to Self
Posts: 92
Registered: 10-1-2006
Location: Webster, TX
Member Is Offline
Mood: No longer annoyed ( I found a new girlfriend)
|
|
Oh yeah, I forgot about the quantum black hole theory of the tunguska blast. Quantum black holes (singulariies) held in a containment field would be a
source of incredible power, as matter in anhilated near the event horizon, phenomenal ammounts of energy are released as x-rays and gamma ray
emmisions. As for zero point energy, it is the ultimate power source that we can currently conceive of. A zero-point device would completely eliminate
fission, fusion, antimatter power sources, in theory it would quickly eleminate all world wide energy problems, and pollution problems, every country
would be free from the other as for energy needs. but with that much potential power some nut would probably try to use a zero point device to power a
particle beam weapon, or the godz only know what else with it for relgiious or other terrorist agendas.
I\'ll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he is gonna start a fair fight, or if he\'s bothrn me allot, or if I am getin payed good, or probably
over a good woman.
-Jayne Cobb (Serenity) |
|
|
IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
Member Is Offline
Mood: Discovering
|
|
My first use of zero point energy would be a weapon no doubt. It is called survival. Everyone involved in the global energy market would be out to
kill me and supress the invention if I invented a true free power source with endless potential. Therefore whoever does invent a working model is a
fool if they do not first build an ultimate weapon before they tell anyone about the free energy.
|
|
|
lordmagnus
Hazard to Self
Posts: 92
Registered: 10-1-2006
Location: Webster, TX
Member Is Offline
Mood: No longer annoyed ( I found a new girlfriend)
|
|
Good point, it's the ol' the best defense is an ultimate offense
I\'ll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he is gonna start a fair fight, or if he\'s bothrn me allot, or if I am getin payed good, or probably
over a good woman.
-Jayne Cobb (Serenity) |
|
|
12AX7
Post Harlot
Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline
Mood: informative
|
|
So what happens when you fill all the zero points with energy? 
|
|
|
lordmagnus
Hazard to Self
Posts: 92
Registered: 10-1-2006
Location: Webster, TX
Member Is Offline
Mood: No longer annoyed ( I found a new girlfriend)
|
|
One of the many theories is that the Zero Point device will slowly reach a point at wich it just quits working, at this point the device can be
scrapped for parts, and rebuilt anew. There are allot of ideas about zero point, the first original one is that a single 100 watt light buld has
enough potential energy in the vacuum contained in it to boil off all the earths oceans. So far no one has figured aaway to tap this power, although
there have been rumors of some very minor success with klein bottles, etc inside an ultravacuum, and so on, and so forth..
I\'ll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he is gonna start a fair fight, or if he\'s bothrn me allot, or if I am getin payed good, or probably
over a good woman.
-Jayne Cobb (Serenity) |
|
|
Odyssèus
Hazard to Self
Posts: 50
Registered: 7-3-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I dont know much about zero point energy, but extracting useful work out of it looks to me like trying to run a heat engine without a cold sink.
You could say a block of ice has enough heat energy to boil off an amount of liquid water almost three times its mass... but how would you go about
doing that?
Just my two cents. Dunno if comparing it to heat is accurate, though.
|
|
|
lordmagnus
Hazard to Self
Posts: 92
Registered: 10-1-2006
Location: Webster, TX
Member Is Offline
Mood: No longer annoyed ( I found a new girlfriend)
|
|
Actually you can extract heat from near freezing water (HEAT PUMP based climate control), I know a guy who's mothers house sits on a parcelof land
that has a very deep, ice cold water well on it, he uses a well pump to transfer the cold water up and into the house and through a heat exchanger, I
don't grasp the whole concept, I need to study heat pump system design more, but in winter he can still get a certain ammount of heat out of the
system to heat the house as well.
I\'ll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he is gonna start a fair fight, or if he\'s bothrn me allot, or if I am getin payed good, or probably
over a good woman.
-Jayne Cobb (Serenity) |
|
|
Odyssèus
Hazard to Self
Posts: 50
Registered: 7-3-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
A heat pump is sort of the opposite of a heat engine... one that takes mechanical energy and uses it to move heat from a cold sink to a hot sink, I
think.
You might be able to move zero-point energy out of a vacuum using energy and create sort of a zero-point battery which does work by moving zero-point
energy back in. Like the heat pump/engine it doesnt sound like you'll actually be able to extract energy from the zero-point energy itself.
But then, things are... funny at the quantum level, you never know.
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8013
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
| Quote: | | In short I vote for a quantum black hole explosion, either above ground or at impact (one coated with debris from interstellar flight which
temporarily shielded it upon re-entry?). |
Why in need of such a weird explanation. I just believe it was a ball of ice/stone, maybe remains of a small comet, which (almost) completely
vaporized in the atmosphere, with a trememdous blast of energy quite close to the surface. This explains why there is no creater, while at the same
time, a center of explosion can be derived (because of all these trees, bent in a radial way).
A black hole, interacting with earth, would leave more traces. In that case, there also would be a lot of radioactivity. Atoms are broken apart, when
falling towards a black hole and a lot of radiation and all kinds of funny exotic particles would be spewn out, contaminating the area with all kinds
of radioactive matter. There are no traces of such things.
|
|
|
neutrino
International Hazard
Posts: 1583
Registered: 20-8-2004
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: oscillating
|
|
Someone a few posts up mentioned the object's shape from eyewitness accounts. I have to doubt these descriptions for two reasons.
First, an object entering the Earth's atmosphere usually comes in at such a high speed that it travels through the entire troposphere in a matter of
seconds. That means that it would only be visible to someone not looking at it with a powerful telescope for only a tiny fraction of a second. How
anyone could make out the shape of a small object in a few milliseconds I don't know.
Second, how could anyone have gotten close enough to this thing to see the object clearly and live to tell about it? Anyone close enough would
probably have been killed instantly by the massive explosion.
My two cents.
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: |
Second, how could anyone have gotten close enough to this thing to see the object clearly and live to tell about it? Anyone close enough would
probably have been killed instantly by the massive explosion. |
Exactly. The very few eyewitnesses, as it is an extremely remote area and we're talking 1908, were killed. Only earwitnesses were left. Ofcourse some
of them were probably deaf afterwards 
/pun
Antimatter/whatever would have left radiation traces and should have left clear evidence on the trees.
As for bizarre metal tools...Meteors are known to contain fair amounts of both Nickel and Iron. Metal getting vaporized instantly usually gives funny
shapes after cooling.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
lordmagnus
Hazard to Self
Posts: 92
Registered: 10-1-2006
Location: Webster, TX
Member Is Offline
Mood: No longer annoyed ( I found a new girlfriend)
|
|
Humm,
Well, adn of the following would leave traces; ANTIMATTER, FUSION explosion, FISSION explosion, QUANTUM SINGULARITY, etc. They would all leave
some forms of radioactivity, and evidence of atomic transmutation as well.
I\'ll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he is gonna start a fair fight, or if he\'s bothrn me allot, or if I am getin payed good, or probably
over a good woman.
-Jayne Cobb (Serenity) |
|
|
IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
Member Is Offline
Mood: Discovering
|
|
"So what happens when you fill all the zero points with energy?"
You get $200 for passing go.
I remember reading once that the normal traces of Ir and Ni among other elements was not there which suggested it was not rock. Woelen's ice ball is
likely the culprit but the esoteric weird black hole/alien explanations are more interesting to talk about. Ice is boring.
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Ice is not boring in interstellar space. I wonder how rapidly it sublimes in stellar vacuum.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
franklyn
International Hazard
Posts: 3026
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=8741&a...
.
|
|
|
Waffles
Hazard to Others
Posts: 196
Registered: 1-10-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
From everything I've heard, the only two reasonable explanations for the Tunguska event are a small meteorite/large comet vaporizing or the small
black hole theory. Given the huge explosion and shockwave, no trace of radioactivity, and no crater or ejecta whatsoever, these are the only
non-conspiracy theory explanations.
\"…\'tis man\'s perdition to be safe, when for the truth he ought to die.\"
|
|
|
Nerro
National Hazard
Posts: 596
Registered: 29-9-2004
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Whatever...
|
|
If a ball of matter completely evaporates in the earths atmosphere before it hits the ground it can cause a violent explosion. Probably violent enough
to cause the trees to fall over. The greatest mistake a scientist can make is to look for explanations that are more complex than is required.
#261501 +(11351)- [X]
the \"bishop\" came to our church today
he was a fucken impostor
never once moved diagonally
courtesy of bash
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
