| Pages:
1
2 |
Zinc
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
CCl4/Al
I have heared many times that a mixture of carbon tetrachloride and aluminum powder can detonate.
Is this true and if yes what would be the velocity of detonation and how difficult would be it to detonate it (does it need a detonator and a
booster)?
|
|
|
mantis
Harmless
Posts: 38
Registered: 17-7-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The reaction between Mg+Tetra is very energetic, so it is possible that the mix with Al can detonate.
But Al is also used in smoke granates with C<sub>2</sub>Cl<sub>6</sub>.
|
|
|
verode
Harmless
Posts: 32
Registered: 22-3-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
try Na and TETRA wow!
|
|
|
21Bravo
Harmless
Posts: 1
Registered: 18-7-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Looks interesting --> interesting the bit about the aluminum oxide would make me a little hesitant seeing how all aluminum forms a protective coat of it. I really
hope you'r joking about the sodium + carbon tet btw  .
[Edited on 19-7-2006 by 21Bravo]
[Edited on 19-7-2006 by 21Bravo]
[Edited on 19-7-2006 by 21Bravo]
|
|
|
neutrino
International Hazard
Posts: 1583
Registered: 20-8-2004
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: oscillating
|
|
From that data sheet:
| Quote: | Mixtures of carbon tetrachloride with group IA, IIA, and IIB metals are explosive and shock sensitive. Carbon tetrachloride is
adsorbed by porous aluminum oxide (alumina); the process is exothermic and leads to spontaneous detonation. With cal-
cium hypochlorite, the addition of carbon tetrachloride causes an immediate explosion. |
CCl<sub>4</sub> + Ca(OCl)<sub>2</sub> = explosion? Adding an oxidizer to an already fully oxidized substance causes an
explosion? Am I missing something here?
|
|
|
DeAdFX
Hazard to Others
Posts: 339
Registered: 1-7-2005
Location: Brothel
Member Is Offline
Mood: @%&$ing hardcore baby
|
|
CCl4 + Ca(OCl)2 --> CO2 + CaCl2 + 2Cl2 ?
|
|
|
franklyn
International Hazard
Posts: 3026
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by DeAdFX
CCl4 + Ca(OCl)2 --> CO2 + CaCl2 + 2Cl2 ? |
Wrong halogen , you need fluorine for something like that to work
I thought of this, Ammonium Bifluoride and Calcium hypochlorite
2NH4F.HF + 2Ca(ClO)2 -> 2CaF + 4H2O + 2HCl + N2
This can only be a low explosive but with a lot of energy
It will also likely be to sensitive to risk making in
significant quantities.
Some alternatives along the lines you propose may be
Lithium Superoxide and Monofluoromethane
2LiO2 + 2CH3F -> 2LiF + 2CO2 + 3H2
Sodium Peroxide and Difluoromethane
Na2O2 + Ch2F2 -> 2LiF + CO2 + H2
Sodium TetraHydroBorate + tetrafluoromethane
NaBH4 + CF4 -> NaF + BF3 + C + 2H2
This last one is interesting because the supposed product of
explosion is itself combustible.
Sodium methoxide + Monofluoromethane
NaOCH3 + CH3F -> NaF + CH3OCH3 ( which is Methyl ether )
Another point is that all of these mixtures can be rendered safe
by simply venting the freon from the containment, leaving behind
the relatively inert powdered reagent. ( I'm supposing that this
won't form a complex compound )
.
[Edited on 21-7-2006 by franklyn]
|
|
|
franklyn
International Hazard
Posts: 3026
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hydrolysis of CCl4
and other chlorocarbons
http://home.clara.net/rod.beavon/hydrolys.htm
.
|
|
|
Sauron
International Hazard
Posts: 5351
Registered: 22-12-2006
Location: Barad-Dur, Mordor
Member Is Offline
Mood: metastable
|
|
Smoke grenades use hexachloroethane and Zn not Al.
|
|
|
halogen
Hazard to Others
Posts: 372
Registered: 18-4-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
"Sodium methoxide + Monofluoromethane
NaOCH3 + CH3F -> NaF + CH3OCH3 ( which is Methyl ether )"
I have a doubt on this one here.  But if so it might create a spectacular FAE for
the incredible flammable properties of dimethyl ether and volatility etc.
F. de Lalande and M. Prud'homme showed that a mixture of boric oxide and sodium chloride is decomposed in a stream of dry air or oxygen at a red heat
with the evolution of chlorine.
|
|
|
Zinc
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
How about C2Cl6/Al?
Cold it also detonate?
|
|
|
Zinc
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by verode
try Na and TETRA wow! |
I tried it today. It didn't do anything. I then ignited Na and spilled CCl4 over it. For 1 second it burned faster and then the fire extinguished. I
also tied CHCl3 (homemade) stabilised with metanol and Na. It reacted but VERY slow.
I belive that the reactions didn't work because the Na is very old (20 years) and has a oxide coating.
I also tried CCl4/Al. It didn't work. I placed a small amount of Al powder on a zinc plate and poured a few drops of CCl4 over it. Then I tried to
ignite with with a propane/butane torch. It didn't even burn. Does anyone know why?
|
|
|
franklyn
International Hazard
Posts: 3026
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You're treating this as if it is a primary explosive mixture sensitive to heat which
it is not. The specific heat and volatility of the halocarbon precludes any mixture
can reach a needed reaction temperature since the metal would need to be near
molten. These are shock sensitive. The finer the mesh size of the aluminum the
better, a blend of stoichiometric proportions that resembles aluminum paint hit
with a hammer will explode.
.
|
|
|
Zinc
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Today I placed a small amount of Al powder on a anvil and poured a few drops of CCl4 and hited it with a hammer. It didn't explode. This mixture is
more stable than I thought. Perhaps it is only sensitive when mixed in the right ratio?
|
|
|
franklyn
International Hazard
Posts: 3026
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Seems likely this is not fireworks grade aluminum huh.
Many powders receive a coating typically of wax to inert
them to static electric ignition. To test your powder take
a pinch between thumb and forefinger and sprinkle this from
high above over a lit stove burner. You should see an aerial
fireworks display in miniature with a great many dozens of
brilliant small white flashes several inches above the flames.
If you witness this occuring only in contact with the stove's
flame then your powder is coated and inhibited for pyro use.
It's possible to wash with paintstripper then add water and
allow to settle before pouring off the solvent floating on top.
Finally adding some alchohol, filtering and allowing this to air
dry should leave you a more sensitive powder. But if you're
going to all this trouble just buy the pyroaluminum.
.
|
|
|
gm137
Harmless
Posts: 5
Registered: 4-12-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Nitrated
|
|
The tetra - Soduim reaction is particulary violent (explosive) if the sodium is burning before application of the CCl4. Maybe its a decomposition
product of tetra that reacts? (Phosgene?).
|
|
|
Zinc
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I tried it and sodium only burned faster for a second.
|
|
|
Zinc
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Today I tried the reaction of Al and CCl4 again. This time I used homemade Al powder (made from a failed Al casting with an angle grinder). I put some
Al powder on a steel block and added a few drops of CCl4 over it. And then I hit it with a hammer. The powder just disappeared but I don't think it
reacted.
|
|
|
Xenoid
National Hazard
Posts: 775
Registered: 14-6-2007
Location: Springs Junction, New Zealand
Member Is Offline
Mood: Comfortably Numb
|
|
Someone may be pulling your leg here zinc.... 
Check out a guy named Pyrene, here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_extinguisher
and "Google" ("carbon tetrachloride" "fire extinguisher")
|
|
|
chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: crystalline
|
|
Well of course they are fire extinguishers as halocarbons are very good at eating radicals. But that's a different story.
The reactivity of chlorocarbons with alkalis is well known. Zinc did you manage to generate a shiny surface on the Na, and expose *that* to CCl4 or
CHCl3?
Other chlorocarbon reactions are that with NaOH, I seem to remember that this generates highly flamable/explosive gasses such as Cl2C2,
dichloroacetylene, see https://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2063&...
Regarding the Al, it has to be very fine of course (like 600 mesh), and angle grinder filings won't do. Also, there's an oxide coat which almost
certainly prevents the Al underneath from reacting. Might I suggest to treat the Al with a very small quantity of HgCl2, or Hg, to form the
amalgamate, which will expose the Al.
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
|
|
|
Zinc
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by chemoleo
Zinc did you manage to generate a shiny surface on the Na, and expose *that* to CCl4 or CHCl3?
|
No I didn't do that. Probably it didn't work because of that.
| Quote: | Originally posted by chemoleo
Might I suggest to treat the Al with a very small quantity of HgCl2, or Hg, to form the amalgamate, which will expose the Al.
|
How can that be done? Dissolving HgCl2 in water and adding Al powder to it and boiling? Or is there some other way?
|
|
|
chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: crystalline
|
|
Good question - add some HgCl2 powder to Al powder (like 10 mg in a few grams), and mix for a fair while, let it sit, and mix more. Or use DMSO (not
water, it'll react and coat the Al once again) to dissolve the HgCl2 if that's possible. The idea is to expose as much of the powder to the Hg as
possible. Then let it sit with drops of CCl4. I'd bet after some time you'll have production of AlCl3. Even if you can't see it.
I must say, the Al powder in paints should be very good for this. It is extremely fine, and can be extracted using even water for acrylic paints- but
be quick because, as I discovered, it reacts with water forming a nice sludge of aluminium hydroxide, and even using EtOH instead does not prevent
this....
[Edited on 29-12-2007 by chemoleo]
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
|
|
|
halogen
Hazard to Others
Posts: 372
Registered: 18-4-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm not entirely sure, but perhaps HgCl2 or Hg2Cl2 are directly soluble in CCl4?
However, the safety of then adding Al is dubious as there is a chance for Hg(CCl3)2 or HgCl(CCl3) which though would not form in large quantities if
any, would nonetheless be extraordinarily toxic. And if dimethyl sulfoxide, I'm sure there's some way for those Me groups to find the Hg...
edit: funny typo
[Edited on 2-1-2008 by halogen]
F. de Lalande and M. Prud'homme showed that a mixture of boric oxide and sodium chloride is decomposed in a stream of dry air or oxygen at a red heat
with the evolution of chlorine.
|
|
|
Zinc
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Sorry to bring up an old thread.
So for it to work Al has to be in suspension in CCl4. How to prevent it from settling? Is there something that could be added to the mix to stabilize
the suspension?
Also could trichloroethylene be used instead of CCl4?
|
|
|
Axt
National Hazard
Posts: 794
Registered: 28-1-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Attaching abstracts on CCl4 + Al explosives. Also check US4233094. I've previously mentioned using CCl3NO2 in place of CCl4 but as far as I know it
hasn't been tried. I'd previously attached a <a
href="http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?action=attachment&tid=5112&pid=58293">CCl4 + Na article</a> into the "novelty
explosives" thread.
<b>Explosion of carbon tetrachloride and aluminum powder</b>. Lindeijer, E. W. Chemisch Weekblad (1950), 46 571. CODEN: CHWEAP
ISSN: 0009-2932. Journal language unavailable. CAN 46:46818 AN 1952:46818 CAPLUS
Abstract
A mixt. of CCl4 and powdered Al provoked a fatal explosion. Sheet Al is not, or is only slightly, attacked by CCl4. The sensitiveness to detonation
of certain mixts. of a nonexplosive liquid and a nonexplosive solid is discussed. In general, an ultimate explosion is to be anticipated when a
strongly exothermic reaction may occur between intimate mixts., especially if one of the components is a liquid or a gas.
<b>Explosive properties of the compositions CCl4 + Al + ZnO</b>. Syczewski, M. Dep. Chem., Warsaw Univ. Technol., Warszawa, Pol.
Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics (1994), 19(2), 87-9. CODEN: PEPYD5 ISSN: 0721-3115. Journal written in English. CAN 120:326929
AN 1994:326929 CAPLUS
Abstract
The CCl4 + Al + ZnO mixts. were prepd. in order to investigate their ability to detonate. The detonation velocity dependence on the charge d. was
established. The increase of d. >1.8 kg/dm3 leads to quick inhibition of detonation ability. At d. 1.3 kg/dm3, particle velocity could be
measured. Extraordinarily low parameters of detonation were explained by the special peculiarity of the explosion products. The compns. have
application as smokescreen generators.
[Edited on 5-5-2008 by Axt]
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
