| Pages:
1
2 |
Organikum
resurrected
Posts: 2337
Registered: 12-10-2002
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: frustrated
|
|
Nuclear Reactions
I am more and more concerned about how nuclear power is provided to the public.
I am on a loss why it is told that centrifuges and shit are necessary to build a working reactor or bomb.
It is known that uranium enriched to about 30% with sufficient shielding is to make a bomb.
30% is about natural in certain ores.
Am I on a loss here?
|
|
|
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
|
|
Rich uranium ores could contain ~30% elemental uranium, but I don't think there are any natural materials that contain U-235 enriched to ~30%. Without
enrichment, you can make a self-sustaining reaction for power production or transmutation, but it needs to use a very good neutron moderator like
high-purity graphite or heavy water. If the uranium is isotopically enriched by centrifuge or otherwise then it can be used in a light water reactor.
I don't think it is at all possible to make a nuclear bomb from uranium without heavy isotopic enrichment. It's possible to split natural uranium with
fast neutrons for a great release of energy, but the only neutron source intense enough to make a usable weapon that way is a thermonuclear explosion,
which itself needs a fission trigger. So it is possible to build a reactor without uranium enrichment, but it is less common. It is not possible to
make a uranium fission weapon without isotopic enrichment.
[Edited on 4-12-2006 by Polverone]
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
|
|
|
a_bab
Hazard to Others
Posts: 458
Registered: 15-9-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Angry !!!!!111111...2?!
|
|
The U235 which is the lighter explosive izotope it's always found in a 0.7% percentage, no matter what ore from what region of the world.
|
|
|
leu
Hazard to Others
Posts: 368
Registered: 13-10-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Disposal of nuclear wastes remains a rather troubling problem, centrifuge separation remains the only feasilbe process for commercial production of
enriched fissile material. Some links with some facts and opinions that may be helpful:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/printable_information_pape...
http://www.uic.com.au/nip33.htm
http://www.llnl.gov/str/Hargrove.html
http://www.llnl.gov/str/Strauch.html
http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/uranium.htm
http://www.fas.org/RLG/v095pcwp.htm
http://www.earthisland.org/yggdrasil/uep11_01.html
http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/russia/exports/rusiran/nukede...
http://www.nti.org/db/china/uenrich.htm
http://www.francenuc.org/en_chn/enrichment_e.htm
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/ref/nuclear_fuel_cycle
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/ref/isotope_separation
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Israel/
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq6.html
http://www.photonics.com/content/spectra/1997/October/tech/7...
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/v37_1_04/article_04.shtm...
http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/week/041109.htm
http://www.wise-uranium.org/eproj.html
[Edited on 12-4-2006 by leu]
[Edited on 12-4-2006 by leu]
Chemistry is our Covalent Bond
|
|
|
MargaretThatcher
Hazard to Self
Posts: 54
Registered: 21-3-2006
Location: Tonga
Member Is Offline
Mood: Handbagging
|
|
Natural uranium like the other elements from which we are composed is the leftovers of a supernova. Hence metorites etc. have the same ratio as found
on earth. The only natural places on earth where the isotope ratio is different are the natural reactors such as in Gabon.
The enrichment necessary to sustain a chain reaction depends on the moderator used: with a graphite or heavy water moderator, natural unenriched
uranium can be used (as used by Fermi in the first man-made reactor and Chernobyl). With a water moderator, the isotope ratio needs to be several
percent as it was a 1.5 billion years ago, allowing natural reactors to occur in uranium deposits.
Uranium enriched to 3.5% for use in water moderated reactors is not weapons grade. Weapons grade is at least 85% 235U, but 20% is sufficient though
very inefficient for a bomb.
The reformative effect of punishment is a belief that dies hard, I think, because it is so satisfying to our sadistic impulses. - Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
12AX7
Post Harlot
Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline
Mood: informative
|
|
I want a few tons of natural uranium (in whatever form, oxide pellets would be fine), and about as much graphite. And some boron or cadmium. It
would be fun to make backyard plutonium.
Tim
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Ofcourse the nuclear weapons threat is bull. Unless you believe that the US will supply India with special centrifuges that can in no way be used for
malevolent enrichment. But you would still have to answer the question why they wouldn't be selling those to Iran.
Anyway, the whole debate is pointless as Iran will be attacked by the neocons anyhow, nothing is going to stop that. Iraqi and Irani citizens, will,
as usual, pay the price.
Meanwhile oil prices skyrocket which means more money for the Bush clique. Smart, isn't it?
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
MargaretThatcher
Hazard to Self
Posts: 54
Registered: 21-3-2006
Location: Tonga
Member Is Offline
Mood: Handbagging
|
|
Yeah vulture, Iran is years away from enriching enough uranium to make a practical bomb. Even if it had a bomb, it would be more of a defence against
US and Israeli aggression than an offensive thing. One way to stop them building such a weapon would be to be nice to them and stop threatening them.
The reformative effect of punishment is a belief that dies hard, I think, because it is so satisfying to our sadistic impulses. - Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
12AX7
Post Harlot
Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline
Mood: informative
|
|
Yeah, but they've been hate-mongering for *decades*. I mean, just about everyone is Muslim, and just about everyone goes to a mosque where several
times daily the people are told to hate Americans. At least, that's what they said on the History Channel, a rather partial channel as television
goes. Whether or not you believe it, hearing it that much is going to warp your mind.
Tim
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by MargaretThatcher
Yeah vulture, Iran is years away from enriching enough uranium to make a practical bomb. Even if it had a bomb, it would be more of a defence against
US and Israeli aggression than an offensive thing. One way to stop them building such a weapon would be to be nice to them and stop threatening them.
|
It is for certain that Iran already has a nuclear weapon and its inert remains are guaranteed to be found as evidence amidst the rubble from the
preemptive strike which will be necessitated to prevent its use ....just in the nick of time , you see . So it was never a matter of preventing them
from developing it , but from using it .....that thing they should have never even thought about . After all we are the thought police , so people
should be careful what they are thinking or we might get ideas of our own . Regime change is what is needed in Iran . Hey here's an idea , lets not
invade Iran on the pretext of any noble cause ....but simply for the joy of raping and pillaging . Sounds like a plan 
[Edited on 13-4-2006 by Rosco Bodine]
|
|
|
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
|
|
This started out as a technical question but seems to be teetering on the edge of Shit Canyon like a few other threads we've just had. Please keep the
political fisticuffs to the designated forum.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
|
|
|
Marvin
National Hazard
Posts: 995
Registered: 13-10-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Iran maybe years away from enriching enough uranium to make a bomb, but if you are going to develop nuclear weapons in defience of the US you do it
the way the UK did it when it developed nuclear weapons in defience of the US.
Build a reactor, poison the villagers and make a plutonium bomb. Didnt half make the US upset, they imposed trade restrictions when they found out,
tried to throttle the UK economically the way the rest of the world was throttling Iraq. Of course, its not popular to remind people of this anymore.
The US is embarrased it ever tried to the stop the UK getting nukes - but only now they have them, and the UK is embarrassed the air cooled reactor
it resorted to on the basis of time contraints caught fire or leaked lethal clouds of dust from the core so many times.
The main thing is that everyone that gets nukes wants to be the last. Noone thinks anyone other than themselves can be trusted with them. The sad
fact is, every country that wants them will get them eventually. The best long term solution would be to lead these countries to the path of
stability as they aquire them, not invade everyone that blinks twice when whichever inbred hick of a US president says nu-cu-lur.
|
|
|
MargaretThatcher
Hazard to Self
Posts: 54
Registered: 21-3-2006
Location: Tonga
Member Is Offline
Mood: Handbagging
|
|
"Build a reactor, poison the villagers and make a plutonium bomb. Didnt half make the US upset, they imposed trade restrictions when they found out,
tried to throttle the UK economically the way the rest of the world was throttling Iraq. Of course, its not popular to remind people of this anymore.
The US is embarrased it ever tried to the stop the UK getting nukes - but only now they have them, and the UK is embarrassed the air cooled reactor it
resorted to on the basis of time contraints caught fire or leaked lethal clouds of dust from the core so many times."
That is rather erroneous.
The reformative effect of punishment is a belief that dies hard, I think, because it is so satisfying to our sadistic impulses. - Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
Pommie
Hazard to Self
Posts: 70
Registered: 6-2-2005
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Can someone explain what is so hi tech about these centrifuges? Surely, anything that could be built in the 40's can now be built by the average Joe
in his garage? Is it just a problem of scale thing? Also, if you get hold of a ton of Uranium and process it to get 9Kg of 235, can you then sit the
238 around the 235 and make yourself some Plutonium?
Mike.
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: |
It is for certain that Iran already has a nuclear weapon and its inert remains are guaranteed to be found as evidence amidst the rubble from the
preemptive strike which will be necessitated to prevent its use ....just in the nick of time , you see . |
You're crazy if you think Iran would use a nuclear weapon as a means of aggression. They'd maybe take out Tel Aviv and then what? They get wiped off
the face of the earth by the Israeli Nukes (which no one seems to object to) before they even could survey the damage.
They're crazy, but they're not stupid. They hatemonger against the US because it keeps the population from seeing their ineptness to lead a country,
not because they want to attack the US.
That said, what do you think will happen after a strike on their installations? Insurgency in Iraq will skyrocket along with US casualties. More
moderate islamic countries will also turn against the US.
Want to attack Iran? Fine, just don't come whining for help after you've stirred up the hornet's nest. We warned you guys about Vietraq...
Solving problems that aren't there only creates problems.
IIRC uranium enrichment centrifuges concentrate UF6, which makes it somewhat more complicated than solid centrifugation. That said, it was possible in
the 40's, so...
[Edited on 14-4-2006 by vulture]
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
I am a fish
undersea enforcer
Posts: 600
Registered: 16-1-2003
Location: Bath, United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ichthyoidal
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Pommie
Can someone explain what is so hi tech about these centrifuges? |
They aren't just any centrifuge. To isotopically seperate uranium, accelerations of the order 1,000,000g are required. This is a major engineering
feat.
The rotor in such a centrifuge will spin in excess of a thousand revolutions per second. To overcome friction, it will need to operate in vacuum, and
will require extremely advanced bearings along its drive shaft. It will also need to be extremely well balanced, as even a minute inbalance in mass
will cause a colossal imbalance in force
The materials used in the rotor are pushed to their mechanical limits and so must be of superlative quality. Forging a metal that won't disintegrate
under the strain is an engineering feat in itself (and indeed, metals of the required quality are sometimes referred to as "centrifuge grade"). If
any part of the rotor does fail, it will explosively disintegrate, with chunks of metal being thrown out at supersonic speeds.
Finally, such a device must operate whilst an extremely toxic and corrosive gas (uranium hexafluoride) is being simultaneously pumped into and out of
it.
1f `/0u (4|\\| |234d 7|-|15, `/0u |234||`/ |\\|33d 70 937 0u7 /\\/\\0|23.
|
|
|
a_bab
Hazard to Others
Posts: 458
Registered: 15-9-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Angry !!!!!111111...2?!
|
|
"Surely, anything that could be built in the 40's can now be built by the average Joe in his garage? "
I'm sorry, but that's pure crap.
Would you be able to make liquid air in your garage? It was done more than 100 years ago.
Or how about an 30 KW arc furnance Moissan used to make? Can you isolate lithium from mineral waters?
There are countless examples of old things the average Joe wouldn't be able to make, let alone in the garage. It's a matter of resources rather than
knowledge.
[Edited on 14-4-2006 by a_bab]
|
|
|
Marvin
National Hazard
Posts: 995
Registered: 13-10-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Actually a_bab liquid air woud be quite trivial in a garage, as would be an arc furnace.
Materials that will withstand 10,000rpm centrifuge operation and not be corroded by UF6 gas though are still rather exotic. Just making UF6 would
require the ability to handle fluorine.
I do wonder if single crystal steel technology would work, but thats usually limited to tiny parts inside jet engines.
MargaretThatcher, If there are specific faults with it, feel free to correct them. US refused to release details of the bomb to the countries that
helped develop it. The first windscale pile went critical in 1950, with an air cooling system later found to leak radioactive particles. When US
found out the UK were building a bomb, talks broke down and they threatened trade sanctions unless they stop. They may not have had time to apply
them, the plutonium produced was augmented with purchased plutonium from canada and 'hurricane' was detonated just two years after the first windscale
pile went critical. Just a few years later, still producing plutonium for the bomb project one of the two reactors caught fire, resulting in the
release of massive amounts of radioactive iodine and polonium (the latter being manufacturered for the bomb triggers).
All this is a matter of historical record.
If you want nuclear weapons, don't enrich! Build a pile! Its not safe, but it is fast. UK was a nuclear power before it had nuclear power and
against the wishes of the US.
|
|
|
akinmad
Hazard to Others
Posts: 245
Registered: 24-7-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Marvin
I do wonder if single crystal steel technology would work, but thats usually limited to tiny parts inside jet engines.
|
I recently translated Nuclear Material Trigger List of IAEI. This is a list by which IAEI watches if a specific country is a proliferator.
In certain parts of a very long list, there was an article mentioning about nickel alloys, which are placed in the trigger list for they are resistant
to UF6 and heavily used in both diffusion and enrichment centrifuges.
For obtaining hints about nuclear technology, I recommend taking a look at that trigger list. HTH. Regards.
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5126
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
"Actually a_bab liquid air woud be quite trivial in a garage, as would be an arc furnace."
Have you tried?
Once you have got that sorted out you might want to try making a copy of John Harrison's chronometer.
Anyway.
Surely the problem isn't nuclear weapons?
Imagine the West gave Iran a nuke as a present.
Then they reminded the Iranians that, if they ever used it, they would get wiped off the face of the earth in retaliation.
Most plausible governments would probably not want to try firing it.
Even if they did their neighbours would put a lot of effort into stopping them.
Iran can't even maintain decent roads- their rail system is shot and their healthcare isn't much better.
It simply doesn't make sense to let them build a nuclear power plant; Windscale, TMI and Chernobyl (and the French and Japanese ones that I can't
remember the names of) taught us it's difficult to build a safe one, even if you have reasonable infrastructure and good engineering. We should be
telling the Iranian people that, since they have lots of oil, they don't need nasty dangerous, expensive nuclear power. (And the first one to disagree
about the cost gets beaten to death with the slogan "too cheap to meter"). While we are at it me might ask them if they need a government that is
prepared to risk the citizens' lives for an ego trip. (er, actually, come to think of it, that probably goes for the US and the UK too)
|
|
|
12AX7
Post Harlot
Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline
Mood: informative
|
|
The physics prof at my school keeps talking about building bombs. He said one class accomplished the task of designing a bomb, inside and out,
presumably, calculating cross sections and critical mass and kinetic energy (i.e. explosives) needed to detonate this thing and whatnot. A mini
Manhattan project I guess, but without the groundbreaking physics research (it's already been done!) and unfortunately, no active materials. *Shrug*,
it's just textbook information, all you have to do is assemble it. An academic curiosity.
The best way to go about nuclear anything IMO is natural uranium, requiring a minimum of refinement, combined with a graphite and/or water moderator
(natural water could be used for cooling a graphite moderated reactor, but heavy water is preferrable because normal water tends to absorb neutrons)
and I guess boron or cadmium control rods. Let it cook for a while and monitor the activity. After a while, it should start heating up as U238 is
kicked up to Pu239, which can then be chemically refined far easier than U235 from U238.
For that matter, since H2O absorbs neutrons, you should be able to cook the whole pile with H2O and graphite and chunks of uranium fuel and, after a
probably much longer time, get D2O, Pu239 and so on.
Not to mention all those wild byproducts, ranging from oh I don't know, taking arbitrary bounds of yields, say, atomic mass numbers 85-110, and uh, a
minima around 123, and then about 127-152, corresponding to (assuming only beta decays to stable products) Kr to Ag and Te to Sm, plus little bits of
lots of stuff all around. (I think pH would generally rise from all the alkali and alkaline earth metals produced.) Probably a good bit of trouble
with residual activity of a lot of those, though. It would be neat to look through those nucleides and see which have a short half life (under a
year, say) before decaying to a mostly stable nucleide (more than 10^9 years or so), then chemically seperate them after leaving the spent fuel to
cool down for a while.
Reactor design wouldn't be that hard, you just need to keep everything sealed and shielded. American reactors all have very thick concrete reactor
containment buildings, not a bad idea. A sealed stainless steel vessel with an extra container beside it to divert pressure in event of shit hitting
the fan, and on top of that, another vessel sealing both in, would be pretty nice I think. Add feedthroughs for pipes, wires, etc., then wrap it with
an inch or two of lead sheet or a couple feet of concrete. Radiation hardened robotics and cameras would be a pretty good idea for manipulating
things you can't handle in the design with servos and whatnot.
Tim
[Edited on 4-14-2006 by 12AX7]
|
|
|
Chris The Great
Hazard to Others
Posts: 463
Registered: 29-10-2004
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
For the centrifuge thing:
It was done in the 40's, requiring billions of 40's money (it would be massive amounts of $$$ today) and an entire CITY and a massive industrial
commitment. Not something you can do in your garage. Centrifuging UF6 requires numerous stages and cannot be done on any sort of scale on anything
short of a massive sized industrial plant.
For fun, calculate the ENERGY required to run those centrifuges and seperate out all the UF6. You'd need your own 500kV three phase feed line to run
it!
Just because it was done in the 40's doesn't mean it is possible nowadays. I mean, if countries will massive amounts of money, engineers and such
(even a poor country can get quite a few) can't do it, you're sure as hell not going to do it in your garage unless you are a freaking mastermind with
millions of dollars and massive amounts of time, equipment and minions.
Designing the basics of a nuclear bomb, IMO, is not hard. In fact, I think all parts of a bomb, EXCEPT the crucial core of uranium or plutonium,
could be assembled by someone such as us, assuming a implosion type single stage fission weapon of roughly 10-30kT. It would be a very large
challenge but I think it could be done.
I have done a lot of research into the possibility of doing it at home, and have come to the conclusion it simply can't be done in your garage, unless
your garage is massive and you have millions of dollars to spend.
It is dissapointing, but hey, you CAN do bio weapons in your garage, so if WMDs are your thing...
|
|
|
a_bab
Hazard to Others
Posts: 458
Registered: 15-9-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Angry !!!!!111111...2?!
|
|
The implosion system for a Pu or U core is also going to be a problem. Even if you can get the 30 kg or so of RDX and a slower explosive, detonating
them in the proper time frames - now that's going to be a problem. You'll have to make very precise blasting caps, and a "AP filled christmas light
initiated drink straw" is not going to work here.
|
|
|
Chris The Great
Hazard to Others
Posts: 463
Registered: 29-10-2004
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Yep, HV capacitor initiated exploding bridgewire slapper type detonators, or something to that general effect, are needed. I never said it would be
easy, but making 100 of those, and having them fire within milliseconds of each other, is still a simple task compared to making the Pu or U core for
the device.
|
|
|
a_bab
Hazard to Others
Posts: 458
Registered: 15-9-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Angry !!!!!111111...2?!
|
|
It's not as simple since the americans worked alot on this issue while the Pu was cooking... I don't know exactly what the limit of the explosion
between the caps is, but I feel is under 1 ms.
EDIT: quote from Wiki
"The lenses must be accurately shaped, chemically pure and homogeneous for precise control of the speed of the detonation front. The casting and
testing of these lenses was a massive technical challenge in the development of the implosion method in the 1940s, as was measuring the speed of the
shock wave and the performance of prototype shells. It also required electric exploding-bridgewire detonators to be developed which would explode at
exactly the same moment so that the explosion starts at the centre of each of the lenses simultaneously (within less than 100
nanoseconds). Once the shock wave has been shaped, there may also be an inner homogeneous spherical shell of explosive to give it greater
force, known as a supercharge."
[Edited on 15-4-2006 by a_bab]
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
