| Pages:
1
2
3 |
Leben
Hazard to Self
Posts: 50
Registered: 9-8-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Storing lithium ingots under oil? Density issues?
I'm going to be getting my hands on some lithium ingots. These are very small, roughly 0.35g, and come packaged in a single aluminum foil fag. I'm
going to have roughly about 500g of them.
What would be obvious is to store them under oil, but if I dump a bunch of these in a jar and pour enough oil in to come cover their tops, do I risk
them all floating up to the top? Is there an oil that is less dense than lithium that I might could use?
I do not have access to Argon/Nitrogen gas, or else I would put them in a jar and saturate it with gas.
|
|
|
Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1348
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Grateful
|
|
I believe that petroleum jelly is used sometimes.
|
|
|
Leben
Hazard to Self
Posts: 50
Registered: 9-8-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I fear that could be a major source of contamination when I go to use my lithium.
|
|
|
Zyklon-A
International Hazard
Posts: 1547
Registered: 26-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorine radical
|
|
Why not stick a lead spike in your lithium. If you don't have one, it could be easily forged, as lead has a low melting point.
[Edited on 25-8-2014 by Zyklon-A]
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5126
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Zyklon-A  | Why not stick a lead spike in your lithium. If you don't have one, it could be easily forged, as lead has a low melting point.
[Edited on 25-8-2014 by Zyklon-A] |
"These are very small, roughly 0.35g, and come packaged in a single aluminum foil fag. I'm going to have roughly about 500g of them"
About 1400 lead spikes....?
You can always wash the petroleum jelly off when you need to.
|
|
|
Zyklon-A
International Hazard
Posts: 1547
Registered: 26-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorine radical
|
|
Ok, cast the lithium into a solid mass under a inert gas, in liquid candles/any high temperature boiling hydrocarbon.
Cut into a few chunks.
Stick a ball of lead with a spike into a each lithium chunk.
|
|
|
Mailinmypocket
International Hazard
Posts: 1351
Registered: 12-5-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I use a piece of metal window screen pushed into the bottle to hold lithium pieces under their oil. You only need a small square and once it's in the
bottle holding the lithium submerged it can be screwed shut no problem.
|
|
|
Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1348
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Grateful
|
|
You would use a solvent, such as diethyl ether, to wash away the petroleum jelly from the lithium.
What I recall from lab is that alkali metals are washed with hexane to remove the oil coating, and then washed with diethyl ether to remove the
hexane. IIRC.
[Edited on 25-8-2014 by Loptr]
|
|
|
Fantasma4500
International Hazard
Posts: 1681
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline
Mood: dangerously practical
|
|
supposing it could be done in a test tube, using simple butane as 'inert gas'
it is heavy and i recall seeing it used for preparing phosphorus sulfide and some other similar compound
|
|
|
MrHomeScientist
International Hazard
Posts: 1806
Registered: 24-10-2010
Location: Flerovium
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It's very difficult to find something that lithium won't float on or react with. The metal screen was an idea I had too, and seems the easiest. Woelen
stores his under pressurized butane gas, as described in his thread here: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=32593
Keep in mind that unless you completely seal the container (the bag it came in, flame sealed ampoule, etc.) atmospheric gases will eventually find
their way in and tarnish your metal.
|
|
|
Leben
Hazard to Self
Posts: 50
Registered: 9-8-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist | It's very difficult to find something that lithium won't float on or react with. The metal screen was an idea I had too, and seems the easiest. Woelen
stores his under pressurized butane gas, as described in his thread here: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=32593
Keep in mind that unless you completely seal the container (the bag it came in, flame sealed ampoule, etc.) atmospheric gases will eventually find
their way in and tarnish your metal. |
I looked into Argon gas and found that I could get 20 cubic feet for around $70, which isn't a bad deal. I think refills are around $20.
Is there a reason why I can't just put the lithium ingots in glass canning jars (with an outer plastic insulator to prevent breakage), and put argon
gas in there? Argon is dense enough that no outside gas should be able to find its way in. At this point I am thinking investing in Argon gas is my
best option. It would certainly come in handy when doing various reactions.
[Edited on 25-8-2014 by Leben]
|
|
|
careysub
International Hazard
Posts: 1339
Registered: 4-8-2014
Location: Coastal Sage Scrub Biome
Member Is Offline
Mood: Lowest quantum state
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Loptr |
You would use a solvent, such as diethyl ether, to wash away the petroleum jelly from the lithium.
What I recall from lab is that alkali metals are washed with hexane to remove the oil coating, and then washed with diethyl ether to remove the
hexane. IIRC.
[Edited on 25-8-2014 by Loptr] |
If you wash the oil off with chilled butane, then it will evaporate immediately once it warms to about 0C, and no further washing would be needed.
|
|
|
MrHomeScientist
International Hazard
Posts: 1806
Registered: 24-10-2010
Location: Flerovium
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Leben | Is there a reason why I can't just put the lithium ingots in glass canning jars (with an outer plastic insulator to prevent breakage), and put argon
gas in there? Argon is dense enough that no outside gas should be able to find its way in. At this point I am thinking investing in Argon gas is my
best option. It would certainly come in handy when doing various reactions.
[Edited on 25-8-2014 by Leben] |
Argon would be a good choice, but again if it's not in a completely sealed container (i.e. ampoule) outside air will eventually leak in. The time
scale of that happening may be quite long, but it's virtually unavoidable to my knowledge. Despite being heavier than air, argon is (like all gases)
miscible with air. So eventually it will find its way out of the container and come to equillibrium with the surrounding atmosphere.
Not too long ago, I filled a fish tank with sulfur hexafluoride to try to float a tinfoil boat on it. When not playing in it, I laid a lexan sheet
over top of it. Despite the very high density of SF6, I was amazed at how quickly it escaped the tank. Within 20 minutes or so. Obviously not well
sealed, but it illustrates that these things can escape quicker than you'd think.
Where do you get your Argon? I'd love to have a cylinder handy, especially for my incoming package of lithium metal.
|
|
|
Leben
Hazard to Self
Posts: 50
Registered: 9-8-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist | | Quote: Originally posted by Leben | Is there a reason why I can't just put the lithium ingots in glass canning jars (with an outer plastic insulator to prevent breakage), and put argon
gas in there? Argon is dense enough that no outside gas should be able to find its way in. At this point I am thinking investing in Argon gas is my
best option. It would certainly come in handy when doing various reactions.
[Edited on 25-8-2014 by Leben] |
Argon would be a good choice, but again if it's not in a completely sealed container (i.e. ampoule) outside air will eventually leak in. The time
scale of that happening may be quite long, but it's virtually unavoidable to my knowledge. Despite being heavier than air, argon is (like all gases)
miscible with air. So eventually it will find its way out of the container and come to equillibrium with the surrounding atmosphere.
Not too long ago, I filled a fish tank with sulfur hexafluoride to try to float a tinfoil boat on it. When not playing in it, I laid a lexan sheet
over top of it. Despite the very high density of SF6, I was amazed at how quickly it escaped the tank. Within 20 minutes or so. Obviously not well
sealed, but it illustrates that these things can escape quicker than you'd think.
Where do you get your Argon? I'd love to have a cylinder handy, especially for my incoming package of lithium metal. |
I just searched on google. A ton of sites came up. 20 cubic feet is a ton of Argon too for chemistry purposes.
Air will leak in, that is true, though the seals on those glass jars can be quite nice. And should be fairly sturdy. I will just have to be sure that
I purge the jar every use.
|
|
|
careysub
International Hazard
Posts: 1339
Registered: 4-8-2014
Location: Coastal Sage Scrub Biome
Member Is Offline
Mood: Lowest quantum state
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Leben | | Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist | | Quote: Originally posted by Leben | Is there a reason why I can't just put the lithium ingots in glass canning jars (with an outer plastic insulator to prevent breakage), and put argon
gas in there? Argon is dense enough that no outside gas should be able to find its way in. At this point I am thinking investing in Argon gas is my
best option. It would certainly come in handy when doing various reactions.
[Edited on 25-8-2014 by Leben] |
Argon would be a good choice, but again if it's not in a completely sealed container (i.e. ampoule) outside air will eventually leak in. The time
scale of that happening may be quite long, but it's virtually unavoidable to my knowledge. Despite being heavier than air, argon is (like all gases)
miscible with air. So eventually it will find its way out of the container and come to equillibrium with the surrounding atmosphere.
Not too long ago, I filled a fish tank with sulfur hexafluoride to try to float a tinfoil boat on it. When not playing in it, I laid a lexan sheet
over top of it. Despite the very high density of SF6, I was amazed at how quickly it escaped the tank. Within 20 minutes or so. Obviously not well
sealed, but it illustrates that these things can escape quicker than you'd think.
Where do you get your Argon? I'd love to have a cylinder handy, especially for my incoming package of lithium metal. |
I just searched on google. A ton of sites came up. 20 cubic feet is a ton of Argon too for chemistry purposes.
Air will leak in, that is true, though the seals on those glass jars can be quite nice. And should be fairly sturdy. I will just have to be sure that
I purge the jar every use. |
You could hedge your bets by also putting some of those iron-based oxygen getters also:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-2000cc-OXYGEN-ABSORBERS-includes-L...
Any air leakage would be ameliorated by on-going oxygen scavenging.
|
|
|
Leben
Hazard to Self
Posts: 50
Registered: 9-8-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I just read that Lithium can react with glass and combine with it, but the example was with powdered glass. Will this reaction happen to any
substantial extent if I have the lithium floating in oil inside of a stirred flask, like when the lithium contacts the outer portions of the flask?
|
|
|
MrHomeScientist
International Hazard
Posts: 1806
Registered: 24-10-2010
Location: Flerovium
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
No. The only time I've heard of Li interacting with glass is when the metal is molten. Then it becomes quite scary.
|
|
|
Dr.Bob
International Hazard
Posts: 2732
Registered: 26-1-2011
Location: USA - NC
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
As long as the lithium is in mineral oil, and in a sealed glass jar, it should be OK. No matter how careful you are, it will slowly oxidize, but
there is enough mass there that the top pieces will act as oxygen getters.
I would rinse the lithium with hexanes in a flask to remove any oil. It is not that tough, and just keep those hexanes in another sealed jar, as they
may get specs of lithium in them, so be careful not to leave uncovered. Once you get enough used hexanes, just let them sit in a safe place, open a
short time, to quench any lithium and then you can distill them to recover most of the hexanes.
Traces of oil are harmless to most chemistry and will not affect most reactions.
|
|
|
careysub
International Hazard
Posts: 1339
Registered: 4-8-2014
Location: Coastal Sage Scrub Biome
Member Is Offline
Mood: Lowest quantum state
|
|
eBay Chinese Lithium
I bought one of those packets of 25 g of lithium ($20) from yaolihong2013 on eBay, which arrived in a double pouch.
The outer pouch is opaque aluminized plastic so you can't see what is inside, which was a clear plastic pouch with bright shiny pieces of lithium wire
(large surface area).
The clear pouch is a notched rip-open type, which I judged rather fragile, so I stuck it in a 16 oz mason jar for mechanical protection.
I figured that as long as the inner pouch was intact, that the lithium would be safe from oxidizing.
Wrong. 10 days later it has mostly blackened. Be forewarned if you get some of this.
Either do not open the outer packet (until you are ready consume it in some manner), or have a plan to store it in another container ready-to-go.
I am planning on ordering another packet, I suppose I will follow the observation that lithium pieces in jar act as their own getter, the top layer
tarnishing but protecting the bottom, and put the now-blackened lithium on top of new shiny lithium.
Those iron oxygen scavengers should work also I think. One company actually fills its packets with a mixture of finely divided iron and mineral oil.
Immersing packets in the oil should not interfere with their function.
I think these should do the trick (50 cc packets capable of de-oxygenating 400 ml container; 10 of them for $3 shipped):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/50cc-Oxygen-Absorbers-10-sachets-pac...
[Edited on 30-8-2014 by careysub]
|
|
|
careysub
International Hazard
Posts: 1339
Registered: 4-8-2014
Location: Coastal Sage Scrub Biome
Member Is Offline
Mood: Lowest quantum state
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob | As long as the lithium is in mineral oil, and in a sealed glass jar, it should be OK. No matter how careful you are, it will slowly oxidize, but
there is enough mass there that the top pieces will act as oxygen getters.
...
|
Since lithium floats, if you purge the jar with inert gas, and then invert it for storage, I wonder whether this will prevent oxygen infiltration.
Also I suggest wrapping the jar threads with PTFE ("teflon") plumbers tape.
A poster on the sodium storage thread boils his mineral oil first, which seems likely to be helpful to drive out dissolved gas and water. To really
boil it you must heat it to around 350C.
It appears that mineral oil can dissolve about 50 ppm at 20C, and that the solubility increases with temperature (200 ppm at 50C), so getting
substantially hotter than water's boiling point in going to be necessary to drive it off:
http://www.nttworldwide.com/tech2204.htm
[Edited on 31-8-2014 by careysub]
|
|
|
FireLion3
Hazard to Others
Posts: 218
Registered: 11-1-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by careysub | I bought one of those packets of 25 g of lithium ($20) from yaolihong2013 on eBay, which arrived in a double pouch.
The outer pouch is opaque aluminized plastic so you can't see what is inside, which was a clear plastic pouch with bright shiny pieces of lithium wire
(large surface area).
The clear pouch is a notched rip-open type, which I judged rather fragile, so I stuck it in a 16 oz mason jar for mechanical protection.
I figured that as long as the inner pouch was intact, that the lithium would be safe from oxidizing.
Wrong. 10 days later it has mostly blackened. Be forewarned if you get some of this.
Either do not open the outer packet (until you are ready consume it in some manner), or have a plan to store it in another container ready-to-go.
I am planning on ordering another packet, I suppose I will follow the observation that lithium pieces in jar act as their own getter, the top layer
tarnishing but protecting the bottom, and put the now-blackened lithium on top of new shiny lithium.
Those iron oxygen scavengers should work also I think. One company actually fills its packets with a mixture of finely divided iron and mineral oil.
Immersing packets in the oil should not interfere with their function.
I think these should do the trick (50 cc packets capable of de-oxygenating 400 ml container; 10 of them for $3 shipped):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/50cc-Oxygen-Absorbers-10-sachets-pac...
[Edited on 30-8-2014 by careysub] |
Lithium doesn't react with Oxygen it reacts with Nitrogen (and water). The black layer that forms on the outside is Lithium Nitride (a strong base),
so oxygen scavengers are unlikely to work. You will need to store it under inert gas or in oil.
| Quote: Originally posted by careysub |
Since lithium floats, if you purge the jar with inert gas, and then invert it for storage, I wonder whether this will prevent oxygen infiltration.
|
Assuming you can get a container that is fairly air tight, storing under a heavy inert gas should do the trick just fine for relatively long periods
of storage.
|
|
|
careysub
International Hazard
Posts: 1339
Registered: 4-8-2014
Location: Coastal Sage Scrub Biome
Member Is Offline
Mood: Lowest quantum state
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by FireLion3 |
...
Lithium doesn't react with Oxygen it reacts with Nitrogen (and water). The black layer that forms on the outside is Lithium Nitride (a strong base),
so oxygen scavengers are unlikely to work. You will need to store it under inert gas or in oil.
| Quote: Originally posted by careysub |
Since lithium floats, if you purge the jar with inert gas, and then invert it for storage, I wonder whether this will prevent oxygen infiltration.
|
Assuming you can get a container that is fairly air tight, storing under a heavy inert gas should do the trick just fine for relatively long periods
of storage. |
You are saying that it does not also react with oxygen at ambient temperature? The higher reactivity of oxygen, and the existence of the lithium-air
battery that relies on room temperature oxidation (with oxygen), makes that seem unlikely to me.
But if it reacts with nitrogen then oxygen scavenging is obviously not going to solve the problem.
Lithium reacts with carbon dioxide also, so "inert gas" here would be helium or argon, I guess. Helium's small, light atom makes it hard to contain
(but it might work in my suggested inverted jar storage configuration), so that leaves argon as the go-to gas.
Bloxygen, an aerosol can (containing no aerosol, just the gas) with 12 g of argon (6.7 L) is available for $12.50 shipped from Hartville Tool for
those who do not want to invest in a $90 gas cylinder. I just ordered one.
I was surprised that the argon-flushed sealed inner plastic packet did not resist infiltration for even a few days. I am not confident whether any of
my jars/bottles are intrinsically much tighter, so I want to get all the protection I can.
I will use the teflon tape trick as an assist, and I'll ship around for a really tight bottle. A Qorpak perhaps?
Mason jars, when heat sealed, do hold vacuums well (years, even decades). Perhaps I should try heating the top with a heat gun to seal it since I
don't want to autoclave the entire jar.
[Edited on 1-9-2014 by careysub]
[Edited on 1-9-2014 by careysub]
[Edited on 1-9-2014 by careysub]
|
|
|
FireLion3
Hazard to Others
Posts: 218
Registered: 11-1-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
careysub,
It was probably wrong for me to say it doesn't react with air. Lithium is very reactive and probably reacts with a lot of gases. Lithium is known for
forming a black Lithium Nitride layer on its surface when left in the air. I suppose this would be your main worry seeing as air is composed of mostly
nitrogen.
I am not sure you would need to heat seal the mason jar. If you use Argon and seal the lid decently, assuming it is not tossed around, a large
majority of the air will be kept out. Even if the seal is not complete, argon being heavier than air will keep most of the air at bay.
I am designing a container that utilizes gas-check valves. Something that I can seal, then put argon in through the 1 way in port, while the lighter
air gets pushed out of the 1 way out port. This will be an effective way to purge almost all of the lighter air out of the container. After purging is
complete, just close off the intake port, and you would have a mostly perfectly inert sealed container. - Cruicial is the lid, but I'm sure you can
figure that most. Many premade containers can be modified fairly easily to work in this manner.
|
|
|
The Volatile Chemist
International Hazard
Posts: 1981
Registered: 22-3-2014
Location: 'Stil' in the lab...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Copious
|
|
I suppose balloon helium has reactive gasses in it, I guess.
like to meet one of those.
Couldn't you just fill a jar w/ a nonreactive oil, plop the lithium in, close the jar, then flip it upside-down? I guess that defeats the ease of
using it, though.
Sounds like you got a pretty big lot of lithium! Where'd you get it?
|
|
|
subsecret
Hazard to Others
Posts: 424
Registered: 8-6-2013
Location: NW SC, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Human Sadness - Julian Casablancas & the Voidz
|
|
You could put a beaker on top of the lithium, pushing it into the oil. If the bottom of the beaker is too narrow to fit the jar, use an
appropriately-sized watch glass.
Fear is what you get when caution wasn't enough.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
