AlphaDecay
Hazard to Self
Posts: 60
Registered: 20-3-2014
Location: Uranium-238
Member Is Offline
Mood: Emitting Helium-4
|
|
Sodium Sulfate from Aluminum Sulfate
Has anyone tried this synthesis? It uses only easy acquiring chemicals:
3Na2CO3 + Al2(SO4)3 -> 3Na2SO4 +
Al2(CO3)3
Aluminum carbonate would precipitate, leaving sodium sulfate in solution, but I also found out that Aluminum Carbonate decomposes to carbon dioxide
and aluminum hydroxide in water. Is it right? Any tips?
(Please do not tell me to buy the sodium sulfate, I want to synthesize it)
[Sorry for english mistakes]
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4332
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
You won't get aluminum carbonate, you'll get aluminum hydroxide and carbon dioxide. But the sodium sulphate should still form.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
AlphaDecay
Hazard to Self
Posts: 60
Registered: 20-3-2014
Location: Uranium-238
Member Is Offline
Mood: Emitting Helium-4
|
|
Yes, I actually need only the sodium sulfate, Al(OH)3 will be a by-broduct...
|
|
|
Justin Blaise
Hazard to Self
Posts: 82
Registered: 5-10-2011
Location: Parts Unknown
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Filtering Al(OH)3 might prove difficult, as it tends to be gelatinous. If you have sodium carbonate, why not react it with some sulfuric acid?
|
|
|
Amos
International Hazard
Posts: 1406
Registered: 25-3-2014
Location: Yes
Member Is Offline
Mood: No
|
|
At pharmacies and grocery stores you can buy Epsom Salts (magnesium sulfate heptahydrate, it's ludicrously cheap) in pretty large quantities. By
reacting solutions of magnesium sulfate and sodium carbonate, with a definite excess of sodium carbonate, you can precipitate magnesium carbonate and
be left with a solution of sodium sulfate that contains just a bit of sodium carbonate. Neutralize the excess carbonate with some dilute sulfuric
acid(battery electrolyte works fine), and you can evaporate the solution to grow pure crystals of sodium sulfate.
|
|
|
AlphaDecay
Hazard to Self
Posts: 60
Registered: 20-3-2014
Location: Uranium-238
Member Is Offline
Mood: Emitting Helium-4
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Justin Blaise  | | Filtering Al(OH)3 might prove difficult, as it tends to be gelatinous. If you have sodium carbonate, why not react it with some sulfuric acid?
|
Well, here where I live concentrated H2SO4 is pretty hard to acquire and it is expensive too, so I searched for readily available chemicals to make
Na2SO4.
Actually isn't this the chemical reaction [Na2CO3 + Al2(SO4)3] that happens in pools to decant solid particles?
|
|
|
AlphaDecay
Hazard to Self
Posts: 60
Registered: 20-3-2014
Location: Uranium-238
Member Is Offline
Mood: Emitting Helium-4
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by No Tears Only Dreams Now | | At pharmacies and grocery stores you can buy Epsom Salts (magnesium sulfate heptahydrate, it's ludicrously cheap) in pretty large quantities. By
reacting solutions of magnesium sulfate and sodium carbonate, with a definite excess of sodium carbonate, you can precipitate magnesium carbonate and
be left with a solution of sodium sulfate that contains just a bit of sodium carbonate. Neutralize the excess carbonate with some dilute sulfuric
acid(battery electrolyte works fine), and you can evaporate the solution to grow pure crystals of sodium sulfate. |
I may try that someday, thanks for suggestion.
|
|
|
Artemus Gordon
Hazard to Others
Posts: 178
Registered: 1-8-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by AlphaDecay | Has anyone tried this synthesis? It uses only easy acquiring chemicals:
3Na2CO3 + Al2(SO4)3 -> 3Na2SO4 +
Al2(CO3)3
Aluminum carbonate would precipitate, leaving sodium sulfate in solution, but I also found out that Aluminum Carbonate decomposes to carbon dioxide
and aluminum hydroxide in water. Is it right? Any tips?
(Please do not tell me to buy the sodium sulfate, I want to synthesize it)
<b>Artemus Gordon here: I'm glad nobody did tell AlphaDecay to go buy some, but the fact that AlphaDecay has to say this reflects badly on this
forum. Don't do this, people!</b>
[Sorry for english mistakes]
|
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Highly confused by that remark Artemus. What do you mean ?
All i can add is that Aluminium Hydroxide is a real PITA to deal with, so best avoided.
|
|
|
AlphaDecay
Hazard to Self
Posts: 60
Registered: 20-3-2014
Location: Uranium-238
Member Is Offline
Mood: Emitting Helium-4
|
|
I didn't understand that also, and what is the thing with Al(OH)3?
Perhaps I am missing something, and I would like to know what is it...
[Edited on 27-7-2014 by AlphaDecay]
|
|
|
TheChemiKid
Hazard to Others
Posts: 493
Registered: 5-8-2013
Location: ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Aluminum hydroxide traps huge amounts of water in it forming a gelatinous mass that takes forever to filter. Even then, huge amounts of water (and
your product) are trapped in the Al(OH)3.
When the police come
\( * O * )/ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
|
|
|
AlphaDecay
Hazard to Self
Posts: 60
Registered: 20-3-2014
Location: Uranium-238
Member Is Offline
Mood: Emitting Helium-4
|
|
Oh, I see. Okay then, I will be trying something else...
|
|
|
TheChemiKid
Hazard to Others
Posts: 493
Registered: 5-8-2013
Location: ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Good idea. I recommend the epsom salts (MgSO4) method or mixing ammonium sulfate (if you can get it as a fertilizer) and sodium hydroxide,
carbonate, or bicarbonate (whatever is easiest to get).
When the police come
\( * O * )/ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
|
|
|
AlphaDecay
Hazard to Self
Posts: 60
Registered: 20-3-2014
Location: Uranium-238
Member Is Offline
Mood: Emitting Helium-4
|
|
Nice! Ammonium sulfate is easy to get. Reacting it with Sodium Carbonate would produce Ammonium carbonate, or ammonia and carbon dioxide? Or even
(NH4)2CO3 would decompose to ammonium bicarbonate and ammonia? Any suggestion is well accepted.
|
|
|
TheChemiKid
Hazard to Others
Posts: 493
Registered: 5-8-2013
Location: ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It would decompose to ammonia, water, and carbon dioxide.
If sodium bicarbonate is used, it will produce the same chemicals, but there would be more water and carbon dioxide, and the same amount of ammonia.
If sodium hydroxide is used, it will only produce ammonia and water.
When the police come
\( * O * )/ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
|
|
|
AlphaDecay
Hazard to Self
Posts: 60
Registered: 20-3-2014
Location: Uranium-238
Member Is Offline
Mood: Emitting Helium-4
|
|
I see. But now I've gotten 2kg Al2(SO4)3, any interesting uses for it?
|
|
|
TheChemiKid
Hazard to Others
Posts: 493
Registered: 5-8-2013
Location: ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You could:
Make double salts, specifically alum.
Make other aluminum sulfate.
Decompose it first to form water, then sulfur trioxide.
When the police come
\( * O * )/ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
|
|
|
AlphaDecay
Hazard to Self
Posts: 60
Registered: 20-3-2014
Location: Uranium-238
Member Is Offline
Mood: Emitting Helium-4
|
|
I mixed the two chemicals(Na2CO3 and [NH4]2SO4) and I didn't see any gas driving off the solution, also no smell of ammonia gas... I think I'm gonna
try the reaction with Calcium Sulfate, the by-product, CaCO3 is less soluble than CaSO4.
|
|
|
Johnny Cappone
Hazard to Self
Posts: 74
Registered: 10-12-2020
Location: Brazil
Member Is Offline
|
|
What if, instead of carbonate, we used sodium chloride?
I am in need of Na2SO4, and although dilute sulfuric acid and caustic soda are available reagents for me, aluminum sulfate (reasonably pure, I
suppose) is also available as a flocculant to treat pool water. A package with 2kg of Al2(SO4)3 would cost me only 3.60 USD.
Given the characteristic solubility curve of sodium sulfate, I believe that it could be crystallized without major difficulties simply by cooling the
solution. AlCl3 would continue to be dissolved and could also be recovered later (any interesting use for hydrated aluminum chloride?) My concern lies
in the possibility that some sodium alum (NaAl(SO4)2·12H2O) is formed.
Therefore, I would like to hear a second opinion on this approach.
|
|
|
njl
National Hazard
Posts: 609
Registered: 26-11-2019
Location: under the sycamore tree
Member Is Offline
Mood: ambivalent
|
|
It would really be best to have one product be insoluble. The leftover aluminum trichloride hydrate isn't very useful except for preparing other
aluminum salts.
Reflux condenser?? I barely know her!
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5126
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If you powder and dry the sodium carbonate in air for a while until it stops losing weight then you will have pretty pure Na2CO3. H2O with a molar
mass of 124 and probably better than 95% pure
And the Epsom salts (molar mass 246.47 g) on sale will also be better than 95% pure. (Much better if it's pharmaceutical grade).
So, if you weigh out the correct ratio of the materials you will end up with a suspension of magnesium carbonate and a solution of sodium sulphate
which should also be better than 95% or so pure.
You can then filter that liquid and evaporate the water to give crystalline sodium sulphate.
That's possibly good enough for your purpose but, if it isn't then it's a simple enough matter to recrystalise it.
On the other hand, filtering solutions containing Al(OH)3 is very frustrating.
|
|
|
rockyit98
Hazard to Others
Posts: 283
Registered: 12-4-2019
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline
Mood: no mood is a good mood
|
|
NaHSO4 can be found in pool chemical shops along with Na2CO3, the rest is no brainer.
"A mind is a terrible thing to lose"-Meisner
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
