arkoma
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Gore-Tex as a cell membrane
I love electrochemistry--a few basics (salt, vinegar, scraps of wire and an ATX PS), some ingenuity and I'm hooked. I've had a "flower pot" crisis
though; I scrounge my equipment. (If you've ever seen "My Three Sons", I'm the Uncle Charlie in this camp).
I ran across this:
| Quote: | PTFE has outstanding electrical properties and is chemically inert. Gore-Tex, porous PTFE, retains the electrical properties of that material but is
also lightweight. That is possible because electricity can move through the Gore-Tex as well as it moves through the air pockets in the Gore-Tex.
Gore-Tex can be heat sealed. This makes an infinite number of shapes possible.
http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic/sg/bpg/annual/v11/bp... |
WeIl, I happen to have a large USMC Gore-Tex outer coat shell. 
I cut the hood off 
and then I cut up a daggum water bottle to use as a crude form to wrap the Gore-Tex around. I didn't want to arbitrarily cut up my limited supply. I ran it for 6 hours as a chlor-alkali cell. Figured I'd give the
G-T a stress test.
Anodic liquid: 300 ml H2O and 50 gm NaCl with a lead electrode.
Cathodic liquid 1 l H2O and 50 gm NaCl with an aluminum electrode (locks up the +OH a bit for less caustic solution for this proof-of-concept).
12 volts out of old 250 w ATX PS.
So frar flying colors.
I've kept good notes but I'm too excited at the moment to put it all down rationally. Anyone else done this? I UTFSE"ed first no hits
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jwpa17
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I'm a little puzzled. The page you cite states, "Even though Wibert Gore imagined his new material as an insulator for wires, now pure Gore-Tex wires
are used in some situations. PTFE has outstanding electrical properties and is chemically inert." but Wikipedia gives Teflon an extremely high
resistivity - and air doesn't conduct well, either.
Are you saying that your Gore-Tex membrane is conducting? Or not?
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froot
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My theory: The porosity of the material improves it's conductivity by trapping tiny amounts of electrolyte in it's matrix, it's by no means an ion
selective membrane but it will have decent electrolyte separation properties. LOVE the idea, thanks for sharing!
We salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who remove themselves from it.
Of necessity, this honor is generally bestowed posthumously. - www.darwinawards.com |
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arkoma
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I ran this thing for 19 hours @12v 
Definitely NaOH and NaOCl produced, and the membrane no worse for the wear, and good separation of my liquids--ph 14 one side, neutral the other.
Slight bleaching
of the inside camouflage pattern The hydroxide side
I'm seeing the entire coat cut up SOON 
edit: @jwpa--the daggum reference got me thinking about it, why I included it. I'm going to check and see if the G-T conducts by itself and will get
back to you.
[Edited on 5-27-2014 by arkoma]
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Morgan
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"Gore wire and cable can withstand the heat of ignition ..."
http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic/sg/bpg/annual/v11/bp...
Construction A silver-plated copper conductor
insulated with overlapping tapes of
GORE™ Corona Resistant PTFE
(CR-PTFE), and sintered into a
homogeneous insulation.
Temperature rating From cryogenic to 180° C
continuous use temperature
http://www.bj-ribbon.com.cn/Products/GORE/pdfdoc/downf10.pdf
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Refinery
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I theoretized about this idea sometime ago, and if you get chlorine gas out from your electrolysis cell, I am very interested.
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BromicAcid
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Quote: Originally posted by arkoma  | Definitely NaOH and NaOCl produced, and the membrane no worse for the wear, and good separation of my liquids--ph 14 one side, neutral the other.
Slight bleaching
of the inside camouflage pattern |
Did you get any bubbling of chlorine? If the membrane were perfect your pH would be acidic on the anode side from elemental chlorine hydrolyzing in
the water plus I would expect chlorine to be actively evolved since that is the classic chloroalkali process.
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arkoma
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I could smell Cl and see bubbling at the anode and cathode both. I'm running somewhat ghetto (but I'm having a blast and trying to do good science);
my indicators consist of cabbage, rose, and red petunia solutions absorbed on coffee filter. I get a good yellow on them with saturated NaOH solution
so I can say "ph 14" with good certainty. Neutrals a bit more "iffy". My SD reader is acting up this evening--I've been taking bunches of pictures
which i will share along with my data when i slow down a bit; I'm like a 6 year old boy excited at the moment!
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elementcollector1
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Hey, this is some great research! Gore-Tex is a lot easier to come by than Nafion - I wonder if I could just stick a glove in my cell and use that?
On a side note, what about separation? Can the Gore-Tex membrane hold water?
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
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Zyklon-A
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You have gloves made out of Gore-Tex?
A plastic rain coat might work as well. I have an old chlor-alkali cell, that I made a long time ago, I'll try with a "rain coat membrane." Might just
work.
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arkoma
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After running a piece of my coat through the washer, I realized I could split the layers.
 
Clobbered up another "chlor-alkali" cell, and I think the proof is in the pictures. Used the "white" layer of the material. Cell has been running
less than an hour.
  
Anodic liquid 
Cathodic liquid 
I'm fully expecting one of the very sharp young people we have here to take off and RUN with this
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jock88
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Have you got anything against the auld blunt fellas?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sheet-of-DPM-Gore-tex-Gortex-Goret...
This would make a good cell?
Nice piece of work arkoma.
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arkoma
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Yeah man. Looks just like my old USMC jacket. And I am an "auld blunt fella"
*update* DON'T split the membrane, it leaks then. grrrrr.
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HollowMan
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Has anyone tried a successful electrochemical reduction with the Goretex membrane? (as cell divider)
[Edited on 26-3-2017 by HollowMan]
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Jstuyfzand
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This stuff is dirt cheap and is called G R tex, it seems to be made out of polyester but it has the membrane type properties advertised.
Page is in dutch tho, get Google Translate ready!
http://www.actiefstoffen.nl/voering-inlaystof-watten/INTERLI...
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RogueRose
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Arkoma - how many layers did the gortex have? I've found 1-3 layer fabric as well as single layer ripstop that is pretty thin. I'm wondering if
single layer would work or if each layer has different pourosity. How many layers did yours have? You mention seperating so it had at least 2. Was
the material ripstop that you used?
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Tsjerk
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I used goretex as membrane, without success but that was not because of the membrane, and mine had two layers. One with holes that looked like a
supporting layer and a white closed layer which must be the PTFE layer. I let them be together.
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RogueRose
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Has anyone tried Tyvek as a membrane? I remember reading about this having potential but never heard of anyone testing it.
I'd be happy to be the one that tests this but I'm not sure how to make the cell - basically what material can be used for the container/vessel and
how to afix the membrane across the middle of it. I'm wondering if something like the disposable Ziploc plastic containers would work and hot glue to
seal the Tyvek across the middle. The glue I have melts at 245F so it won't melt even in boiling water and I think it holds up under caustic solution
fairly well. This setup would only be for a test run to see if the membrane works, not for production.
As for anode and cathode, I have Cu, Al, graphite plates, Zn plate, stainless, and lead. which would be better for this?
[Edited on 26-3-2017 by RogueRose]
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Tsjerk
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I used a tube as container for the anolyte. The membrane is cut in a circle and folded around the outside of the tube and hold in place with tape. The
membrane was folded out a bit at the bottom so it forms sort of a bag, for bigger anolyte contact area on the inside.
The tube is than placed hovering in a bigger container holding the catholyte.
I had my compound to reduce in the bigger volume catholyte, but you can of course change the two compartments if you are oxidizing something.
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HollowMan
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Hm so none of you tried an electrochemical reduction with the Goretex membrane?
Would be great if this works.
Let me know
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Tsjerk
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For me it seemed to work, nice conductivity and as far as I could seen there was no mixing between anolyte and catholyte. I just don't have a product
to prove the functionality.
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HollowMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk | | For me it seemed to work, nice conductivity and as far as I could seen there was no mixing between anolyte and catholyte. I just don't have a product
to prove the functionality. |
Maybe I should give it a try.
But how about your anode pH? should it react acidic after cl2 evolution?
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