| Pages:
1
2
3
4 |
Zyklon-A
International Hazard
Posts: 1547
Registered: 26-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorine radical
|
|
Electrolysis of alkali salts at STP
In this book, (on page 53) a process is mentioned were lithium chloride is electrolyzed at room temperature, dissolved in an organic solvent, like
acetone or pyridine. Such a procedure is also mentioned in the unconventional sodium topic.
Of course the acetone (I don't have any pyridine) will need to be dried, this method will do.
Anyway, has anyone ever tried this? It seems like it could be the easiest method possible. Well... maybe it's tied with versuchschemie method for potassium.
Either way, I would like to try it, does anyone have any information that would be helpful? And does anyone know weather or not it would work with
other cations, like sodium?
[EDIT, changed subject]
[Edited on 5-3-2014 by Zyklonb]
|
|
|
elementcollector1
International Hazard
Posts: 2684
Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline
Mood: Molten
|
|
Note that in the experiment, amyl alcohol (not easy to find) was recommended, and the lithium was actually reacting with the alcohol - just slower
than it was being plated out.
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
|
|
|
Zyklon-A
International Hazard
Posts: 1547
Registered: 26-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorine radical
|
|
Yes, apparently lithium reacts with acetone too, albeit, very slowly.
This too mentioned Li with acetone.
But, my question remains, Can this be done with sodium? And if not, Why?
|
|
|
elementcollector1
International Hazard
Posts: 2684
Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline
Mood: Molten
|
|
It's not nearly as soluble as lithium chloride, apparently.
Try propylene carbonate. Fairly easy to make, all things considered.
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm sceptical: if a I has a penny for each prescribed 'easy', room temperature method for the preparation of Li metal I'd have quite a bit of beer
money.
At a minimum, try and dig up the references of that section of the paper, before trying anything...
Wiki offers this link:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00608791
[Edited on 4-3-2014 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
Oscilllator
National Hazard
Posts: 659
Registered: 8-10-2012
Location: The aqueous layer
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
its probably worth mentioning than LiCl or other lithium compounds should be able to be electrolised in propylene carbonate, and that the Li might
not react since propylene carbonate is an aprotic solvent. I posted an attempted synth of this somewhere in the organic chemistry section.
|
|
|
Metacelsus
International Hazard
Posts: 2539
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble
|
|
It's harder than you think (urea + propylene glycol gives ~9% yield, which must be separated out of a tarry mess.) It might work better on larger
scales, though.
|
|
|
elementcollector1
International Hazard
Posts: 2684
Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline
Mood: Molten
|
|
Adding a catalyst of ZnO is supposed to give 98% yield...
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You have a reference for this synthesis and catalysis?
|
|
|
BromicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 3246
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
Member Is Offline
Mood: Rock n' Roll
|
|
As elementcollector1 said, the solubility of the sodium salts in non-aqueous medium is significantly worse than the lithium salts severely limiting
the number of non-aqueous options you have to work with. The classic example is the electrolysis in nitrobenzene which is often quoted but the whole
procedure is misunderstood. It is not simply an electrolysis in nitrobenzene but you must fuse sodium chloride and anhydrous ammonium chloride to get
a complex salt to perform the electrolysis, from there the material deposited at the anode is said to be explosive. Again, simple enough in theory
but dastardly difficult in practice.
With regards to the preparation of propylene carbonate from urea and propylene glycol, that is another mess waiting to happen. I have not seen (but
would be glad to be shown) anyone get anywhere near the yields claimed in the patent in actual practice. My own experience with producing ethylene
carbonate by the urea/diol/ZnO process is that you end up with a mess from that whose separation involves filtration, crystallization, followed by
vacuum distillation (BP Propylene Carbonate 242C @ ATM).
Non-aqueous routes are exciting, plus they can be tested quickly and easily with a power supply so long as you have your solvent and your salt. But
selecting the proper counter ion and solvent... that's the crux of the issue. I would love to see some of your attempts however. I myself had a
great many flings electrolyzing lithium chloride in DMSO before after quite a bit of searching I discovered I was making methyl lithium. And what
beautiful methyl lithium it was
|
|
|
Metacelsus
International Hazard
Posts: 2539
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble
|
|
The 9% yield I got was with the ZnO.
|
|
|
elementcollector1
International Hazard
Posts: 2684
Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline
Mood: Molten
|
|
Unfortunately, the old reference I had died for whatever reason. However, I did find this: http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/1451-9372/2011/1451-93721...
It uses metal carbonates instead of metal oxides.
How did you prepare your ZnO? Was it calcined?
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
|
|
|
TheChemiKid
Hazard to Others
Posts: 493
Registered: 5-8-2013
Location: ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Has anybody tried just electrolyzing in a hydrocarbon such as pentane, hexane, or heptane?
When the police come
\( * O * )/ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
|
|
|
WGTR
National Hazard
Posts: 971
Registered: 29-9-2013
Location: Online
Member Is Offline
Mood: Outline
|
|
I've tried two cations that I can remember off the top of my head; lithium, and calcium.
My experience with lithium was somewhat disappointing. Don't underestimate how dry the acetone (and lithium chloride) must
be. I was never able to get more than just a thin film of lithium at one time, just enough that it would "fizz" when I
dunked the electrode into water. Never enough to actually collect.
I tried electrolyzing calcium chloride in ethanol. That didn't work too well either, but again, I got enough to react with water
when the electrode was submerged in it. One thing I found was that the process did not work too well if the alcohol was
absolutely dry. I had to add a drop or two of water to it to get things going. The process was a clever balance between water
content, current density, and salt concentration.
|
|
|
Zyklon-A
International Hazard
Posts: 1547
Registered: 26-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorine radical
|
|
TheChemiKid, there are many criteria for it to work as a suitable solvent (e.g. it can't react, must allow salt to ionize ect.)
blogfast25, excellent link, very informative thank you.
I will buy my Propylene carbonate, I've got some $50.00 designated for this project.
| Quote: |
At a minimum, try and dig up the references of that section of the paper, before trying anything... |
I read all the references that he listed pertaining to the subject.
| Quote: |
My experience with lithium was somewhat disappointing. Don't underestimate how dry the acetone (and lithium chloride) must be.I was never able to get
more than just a thin film of lithium at one time, just enough that it would "fizz" when I
dunked the electrode into water. Never enough to actually collect.
|
Hmmm, well that's about what I would expect. I will keep the container completely sealed off, (to keep it from absorbing water.) How much current did
you use? Voltage?
At least it worked, that's incourageing.
Since I already have lithium, I may try to get sodium from NaClO3, as shown in blogfast25's link. (The reason that I
changed the subject of this discussion.) Potassium is another goal....
[Edited on 5-3-2014 by Zyklonb]
|
|
|
Metacelsus
International Hazard
Posts: 2539
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble
|
|
I prepared it by heating zinc hydroxide (from the reaction of zinc chloride and sodium hydroxide). I did not calcine it.
A full report of my synthesis is in this thread.
|
|
|
Zyklon-A
International Hazard
Posts: 1547
Registered: 26-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorine radical
|
|
Ok, I'm about to purchase this propylene carbonate. Does it look like it will be a good choice?
|
|
|
Oscilllator
National Hazard
Posts: 659
Registered: 8-10-2012
Location: The aqueous layer
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I dont see why not. Don't be surprised though if the electrolysis does not work at first, since there will no doubt be water and other contaminants
that react with the propylene glycol.
|
|
|
Zyklon-A
International Hazard
Posts: 1547
Registered: 26-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorine radical
|
|
No doubt, I will have to dehydrate my propylene carbonate and whatever salt that will be electrolyzed (probably not the right term.) All experiments
will be controlled in a dedicator, and will be handled only occasionally, and briefly.
I couldn't find any information on dehydrating propylene carbonate. .
|
|
|
Oscilllator
National Hazard
Posts: 659
Registered: 8-10-2012
Location: The aqueous layer
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I imagine that if it only contains a small amount of water you could start electrolysing it, and LiOH would form until the propylene glycol was fully
dehydrated, then Li woul be produced. Its quite possible that I am wrong, but its worth a shot I think. As for how to dry it, distill over sulfuric
acid? H2SO4 at 180 degrees will dehydrate just about anything.
|
|
|
Zyklon-A
International Hazard
Posts: 1547
Registered: 26-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorine radical
|
|
That's what I would do, but I don't have a distillation setup....
It's quite close to anhydride, so I might be able to use it as is.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator  | | I imagine that if it only contains a small amount of water you could start electrolysing it, and LiOH would form until the propylene glycol was fully
dehydrated, then Li woul be produced. |
Actually, if there is water it will be electrolysed first because H<sub>3</sub>O<sup>+</sup> is much, much easier to reduce
than Li<sup>+</sup>.
So start running a low voltage that gives you some current, thus eliminating the water, then increase potential to start reducing Li.
[Edited on 6-3-2014 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
Zyklon-A
International Hazard
Posts: 1547
Registered: 26-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorine radical
|
|
That's a good idea. Thanks.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
And DO report back: I think we're all dying to know how this pans out! 
It would probably help to dry the solvent overnight over anh. MgSO4 and oven dry the LiCl at 120 C for a couple of hours, just prior to use. Oven dry
your cell too...
[Edited on 6-3-2014 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
Zyklon-A
International Hazard
Posts: 1547
Registered: 26-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorine radical
|
|
Definitely, I'll report my progress here, and in the Successful experiments topic, if it works . If not, You'll likely find it here.
MgSO4 will be used to dry the propylene carbonate. I plan on first using NaClO3 to make sodium, to avoid have to buy another
chemical. (I don't have any LiCl.) NaClO3 may prove to be hard to dry.... A day in the oven should do it.
[EDIT] Damn, I just ruined my 500th post.... International Hazard! 
[Edited on 6-3-2014 by Zyklonb]
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
4 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
