IodineForLunch
Harmless
Posts: 34
Registered: 28-8-2002
Location: NJ
Member Is Offline
Mood: bored
|
|
metallic peroxy salts
In my never-ending quest for stronger oxidizers, I was thumbing through my CRC handbook a while ago, in the inorganic nomenclature section, when I ran
across peroxynitric acid. HNO4. I spent a while thinking about it but decided it would be too unstable to be preactical for anything. However, a
few nights ago I was joking around with madscientist on AIM and he mentioned HOOClO3 for some reason. I immediatly snapped back to reality, and we
talked about chemicals such as this for a long time. Why not take normal oxy mineral acids, oxidize them even further with H2O2, and then convert
them to metal salts through the addition of hydroxides? Here's what I've come up with so far:
Peroxyperchlorates - active group of -OOClO3 (XClO5)
Peroxynitrates - active group of -OONO2 (XNO4)
Diperoxymanganates - active group of -OO(MnO2)OO- (X2MnO6)
Peroxyperiodates - active group of -OOIO3 (XIO5)
Anyone got any more? Tips, comments, suggestions? Any brave soul out there actually willing to mix perchloric acid with concentrated hydrogen
peroxide??
David Hansen
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I fear they are too unstable too exist, except for HNO4.
How about O-ClO2-O-O-ClO3 and similar? You get the idea, a peroxide chain between two central atoms...
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
IodineForLunch
Harmless
Posts: 34
Registered: 28-8-2002
Location: NJ
Member Is Offline
Mood: bored
|
|
Sounds good to me!
David Hansen
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
BTW, I hereby volunteer to mix perchloric acid and hydrogen peroxide. IF someone get's me the perchloric acid.....
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
IodineForLunch
Harmless
Posts: 34
Registered: 28-8-2002
Location: NJ
Member Is Offline
Mood: bored
|
|
The compound you mentioned can exist wtih a single oxygen between the chlorine atoms. That would be Cl2O7, chlorine heptoxide, a violently explosive
oil. Perhaps reacting it with H2O2 would put a peroxy chain inbetween the two chlorines.... But I wouldn't mix Cl2O7 with ANYTHING unless I had a
death wish.
David Hansen
|
|
|
madscientist
National Hazard
Posts: 962
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: American Midwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: pyrophoric
|
|
Mixing Cl2O7 with H2O2 would probably result in an equimolar mix of HClO4 and HOClO4
(sounds like a very dangerous experiment).
I highly doubt any compound containing just chlorine and oxygen, containing a peroxide chain as well, will be stable enough to exist at realistic
temperatures.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
|
|
|
bonemachine
Harmless
Posts: 47
Registered: 27-10-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
vulture you said that HNO4 is stable and i wonder if something like kno4 could be prepared.
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I have no idea....
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
bonemachine
Harmless
Posts: 47
Registered: 27-10-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Maybe the action of H2O2 to KNO3 would form KNO4 with some way?
|
|
|
Boob Raider
Harmless
Posts: 33
Registered: 15-10-2002
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: Picros
|
|
How about
Electrolysing a solution of NaNO3 in conc. HNO3. This should result in NaNO4 along with a mix of HNO3 and HNO4, since most oxy anions can be
peroxidized this way. I might try this as soon as I get some Ca(NO)3 and NaNO3. I have H2SO4. I need to make some HNO3 first.
\"Go down in a Blaze of Glory\"
|
|
|
KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun)
Hazard to Others
Posts: 254
Registered: 12-10-2002
Location: Iran (pseudoislamic dictatorship of)
Member Is Offline
Mood: exuviating!
|
|
I remember a thread on E & W forum, the topic was something like H2O2 bp. someone had wetted his black powder and when dried it was surprisingly
faster than his other batches I remember they gussed silly causes for it. may be the KNO3 had turned into KNO4 (although I have
doubt).
I'm going to react proxynitrous acid(the nitric acid isomer) with hexamine to see if RDX could form. I will do it like R salt synth except that I
will add excess amount of H2O2
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I think that blackpowder story has a more simple explanation. The KNO3 probably catalyticly decomposed the H2O2 and the escaping oxygen gas got caught
in bubbles in the blackpowder. When dry, the blackpowder had a low density with lots of bubbles which contained pure oxygen. This would ofcourse speed
up the burn.
I don't think you can make KNO4 by KNO3 + H2O2 since KNO3 will decompose H2O2.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun)
Hazard to Others
Posts: 254
Registered: 12-10-2002
Location: Iran (pseudoislamic dictatorship of)
Member Is Offline
Mood: exuviating!
|
|
neutrale or slightly acidic solutions of dichromate salts of K ,NH4 & Tl if react with H2O2 will produce bluish
purple salts which are explosive. these salts are suggested to have [CrVIO(O2)2OH]- ion so they are
related to CrO5
|
|
|
Microtek
National Hazard
Posts: 869
Registered: 23-9-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
These peroxychromates are very unstable and fragile substances. The blue colour is used in analytical chemistry to identify chrome, but you have to
observe the solution carefully because the complex is often destroyed very quickly.
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
KMnO4 decomposes H2O2!
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I know that.
Unless I am mistaken, I thought most salts speed up the autocatalytic decomposition of hydrogenperoxide?
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
N2O5 + HO-OH (conc) --> HO-NO2 + HO-O-NO2
HNO4 = peroxonitric acid
The free acid is said to be unknow and solid salts are unknown but strangely they say :
"UNSTABLE EXPLOSIVE CRISTALS" --> unknown but isolated ????
HO-O-NO is unstable isomeric with HO-NO2 some salts are more stable; it is made by in situ reaction between HNO2 and H2O2.Its oxidation power is
higher than H2O2 or HNO3 alone!!!
Alkaline solutions are more stable but the yellow peroxonitrites MOONO have never been isolated pure!
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Solutions containing up to 10% peroxynitric acid, HOONO2, have been prepared. Such solutions are unstable, gradually decomposing with a half-life of
about 30 minutes. Peroxynitric acid quickly decomposes under alkaline conditions, and salts have never been prepared.
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ic00108a007
It may be prepared by reacting nitrous acid with excess H2O2, or by reaction of nitronium tetrafluoroborate with concentrated H2O2.
Peroxynitrite salts have been prepared, NaOONO, and they readily decompose on being acidified, being extremely reactive oxidizers. There are two
decomposition routes, about 66% of the HOONO decomposes by the first route, to form hydroxyl radicals, while the remaining 34% decomposes to form
transient nitronium ions. Peroxynitrous acid has actually been used to add nitro groups to aromatics.
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
Stange that one of the major decomposition route for peroxynitrites...is not the production of the stabler nitrates...via an intramolecular (eventualy
intermolecular) oxydoredox (2 oxygen atoms going from -1 to -2 oxydation level and one N atom going from +3 to +5 oxydation level)
Na-O-O-N=O --> Na-O-NO2
Too bad those are not more stable...otherwise NH4-O-O-N=O or NH2-NH2-O-O-N=O would have been interesting unstable molecules to study; alternatively
peroxynitrate salts of amines or esters with boosted OB and enhanced densities...but sadly those are dreams until otherwise proven 
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
