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Fantasma4500
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SC - Shaped Charge liner, glass
my question is kinda hard to sum up in one sentence, it would look weird
anyhow here it goes
when i walk around i spot everything laying around, and happened to come by a wine bottle which i recall having a dented upwards bottom
and its made of glass -- ofcourse
so i decided to wrap it in plastic bags and some cloth and smack the side in on it to try to get the bottom of the bottle free
i realised after picking the quite sturdy bottom out that it had a clear crack in it..
http://puu.sh/6rKam.JPG
http://puu.sh/6rKbs.JPG
http://puu.sh/6rKcL.JPG
the piece is approx 6cm wide and 2cm tall (measuring from 10 to 12)
i know it might take a decent load to get this turned into a SC
main question however is..
will this function even tho it has a crack or will it completely ruin it all? just get blown apart and form no plasma?
assuming a mixture of ETN and NC wettened with acetone just before use to form a gel that can easily take up shock and should have decent performance
assuming the shape is useful for a SC, ofcourse
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VladimirLem
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Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  | my question is kinda hard to sum up in one sentence, it would look weird
anyhow here it goes
when i walk around i spot everything laying around, and happened to come by a wine bottle which i recall having a dented upwards bottom
and its made of glass -- ofcourse
so i decided to wrap it in plastic bags and some cloth and smack the side in on it to try to get the bottom of the bottle free
i realised after picking the quite sturdy bottom out that it had a clear crack in it..
http://puu.sh/6rKam.JPG
http://puu.sh/6rKbs.JPG
http://puu.sh/6rKcL.JPG
the piece is approx 6cm wide and 2cm tall (measuring from 10 to 12)
i know it might take a decent load to get this turned into a SC
main question however is..
will this function even tho it has a crack or will it completely ruin it all? just get blown apart and form no plasma?
assuming a mixture of ETN and NC wettened with acetone just before use to form a gel that can easily take up shock and should have decent performance
assuming the shape is useful for a SC, ofcourse |
oh jesus...
IF you take a very strong explosive (EDGN, ETN< it will work...but you should
ask youself about the definition of "work" that piece of shit is definitifly too thick walled and the angle is so damn fucked up, i wouldnt even give
it a try with C4 and would instead just press a (50dagree shaped cone) space in the explosive and would get better results...
buy some martini-glass...they are good (wall thickness and angle) and also work with low-performace explosives like ANNM...
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Gargamel
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This is shit.
Take a new bottle and use a gas torch with a concentrated blue flame.
And prepare a bucket with cold water.
Draw a line where you want the cut, point the flame only on that point and turn the bottle steadily.
After some time, quickly put the bottle in the bucket and knock it against the walls, or just shake it violently in the water.
Ping - you got a round cut.
I used five bottles and succeeded with 3.
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NeonPulse
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To get mine off I used one of them glass shattering hammers, you know the ones at the back of the bus by the window, chipped away excessive glass and
used that. Works well with 200g ANNM on a steel tube. Plastic tube left a large pressed glass plug in the hole
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roXefeller
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Some of the demonstrations of that improvised shape gave something like 3 CD's of penetration through mild steel. The military ones do close
to 7 CD's through ballistic steel. Glass is not the greatest material since it become particulate. I like the martini glass idea. You can also find
ornamental copper bowls online.
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Turner
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I would say you would have more of an explosive formed penetrator. Probably wouldn't go through as much steel, but give a bigger hold and more like a
slug rather than a jet. I have always looked at the bottom of a wine bottle as a possible shaped charge. I hope sometime I stumble across a nice
uniform copper cone.
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Ral123
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This guy has failed with somewhat decent setup. You wont results with garbage, initiated with garbage. Go ahead, waste 80g ETN.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU3TIpoMQN4
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Fantasma4500
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damn.. yes i did suppose i would need quite the charge for it to work, martini glass i did consider, but i would need something alike a sandpaper
machine (supposing you know im talking about band-sandpaper machine)
i tried searching for smaller martini glass, and actually heard norwegians use martini glass alot, although there sadly arent any small martini glass
around
about making holes etc in glass i ofcourse happen to know some around my age which ofcourse gets creative when they need a bong, yes that what drives
young people today.. they managed to make hole in a glass bottle with a metal working tool
http://puu.sh/6sP2x.jpg
dont know name for it, basically a somewhat sharp tool used to scratching metal plates to draw persistent lines for cutting and what not, very
carefully hitting it to take chip by chip of glass off it
i also had an very heat resistant glass bottle, original coca cola which i dumped strands of rocket candy into lit, one time it cracked and i picked
it up to take a closer look, as i put it down the bottom came right off, same thing happened with a beer bottle i did same thing to, although there
might be a chance of having the bottom crack?
size might be a problem for SC as most of us doesnt want to start out with a 500g charge, possibly smaller wine bottles could be found?
i mean, for making a copper cone you would need either to bend a cut plate of copper then weld with TIG (assuming its possible to copper-weld?) or
heat a plate of copper followed by hammering to fit a former made of iron etc
perhaps, if there could be made a coating of copper on something that would easily slide off, then it could be heated very violently with a torch of
some sort, then be pushed off when throughly heated and melted together?
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Ral123
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From a thin sheet of copper, you can easily make a circle, then cut out a segment and fold a funnel. It can be soldered with tin. The funnel can be
quite thin and light. The charge can be with bigger diameter then the cone, with something dense and heavy for confinement. No empty spaces like on
the video, where the volume is not well filled.
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roXefeller
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Copper can be TIG welded, but its very finnicky. You're dealing with geometry and material with a Biot number that indicates isothermal response...
the heat is drawn away rapidly. When it gets to temperature, the puddle will be large. A little skill and practice will get it to work.
Will the solder trick leave an asymmetry that has poor jets forming?
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Pard
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Perhaps buy cheap martini drink glass and use dremel or cut off the stem. The stem is so thin it would not be a difficulty feat I think.
How is it that glass can work as a shaped charge? Copper makes sense to me but not glass. I can't imagine the explosive wuold heat it enough to become
like molten as copper. Is it just the way the force is forced into a small area?
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Metacelsus
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A shaped charge just means that the shockwave is focused (usually by having a conical cavity in the explosive). This is different than an explosively
formed penetrator, which actually shoots a jet of material.
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Turner
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Actually, Cheddite Cheese, a shaped charge (usually) produces an explosively formed penetrator which is the actual penetrating material.
When someone says shaped charge, you pretty much know what they mean.
Although you can make an indent in piece of explosives and call it a shaped charge (munroe effect).
Also, explosives do not melt the copper from heat in a SC, but since the copper is under so much pressure (kilo bar well into the 200-300 range) it
behaves like a fluid., Same thing for glass.
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NeonPulse
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I have a couple of videos that show the performance of the wine bottle bottoms as liners, one used plastic tube and another with steel tubing as the
casing fro the charge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW1COESSJpI&feature=c4-ov... and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKll8udGswI&list=UUYoGL6L...
As expected the steel gave much better penetration. overall i think the wine bottle bottoms performed quite well, better than i expected anyway. give
them a go. you wont be disapointed.
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Bot0nist
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There was a thread made a while back by a member who electro plated copper liners onto an aluminum fence post cap that were near perfectly shaped, and
IIRC, his tests were very successful. Many older members found this technique revolutionary as a cheap and novel way to prepare copper liners ESP
shaped charges without metal machining tools. Just UTFSE, Im sure you will find it. It is a great read. Highly recomended.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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Ral123
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Good ones, I like how PGDN preforms good, for it's energy density.
Years ago I've soldered copper sheets and tin to make cute model fuel tanks. I admit, the cone won't be perfect. How about a small light cone(may be
aluminium), with diameter smaller then the charge diameter and big amounts of cheap material like UN/EGDN dynamite. May be reduced standoff distance.
I'm convinced some penetration can be achieved even with cheap material.
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Pard
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| Quote: Originally posted by Turner | Actually, Cheddite Cheese, a shaped charge (usually) produces an explosively formed penetrator which is the actual penetrating material.
When someone says shaped charge, you pretty much know what they mean.
Although you can make an indent in piece of explosives and call it a shaped charge (munroe effect).
Also, explosives do not melt the copper from heat in a SC, but since the copper is under so much pressure (kilo bar well into the 200-300 range) it
behaves like a fluid., Same thing for glass.
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Thanks, I'd been wondering. Can they tell me how the stand off distance is figured?
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Fantasma4500
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Ral123: yes that is most likely gonna work, its all about how simple it can be done with decent efficiency, but as stated just below by roXefeller..
wouldnt the shape of the plasma be slightly affected, and possible be shooting slightly sideways etc? anyways, TIG welding sheet metal is something i
find near impossible, had a go with approx 0.05mm stainless steel (unknown alloy, very shiny) and it has a much higher melting point than copper, the
problem would be that much greater control would be needed, perhaps do-able if copper plates were pressed to overlap each other..?
but yeah Pard.. a dremel should be abit cheaper than a huge sandpaper band machine.. however now i think about it, if you could simply crack it off
from the ~45* cone then the top would probably not matter than much
but yes, in amateur chemistry/energetics there is usually referred to formed penetrators when talking about SC's
i think ive been through all your videos, NeonPulse.. hard to remember who tested what tho, i think this was perhaps one of the things that backed up
my idea of a wine bottle bottom being useful for SC, although the ones you found has much more desirable shapes, they are alot taller
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f0/Obu...
like this one, alot longer than what the average amateur can get a hold of (:
infact i suppose you would get alot greater efficiency if you had the plates as one solid lump of metal, i somehow managed to discuss SC's with my
class' technology teacher who happens to have worked at a place where they make high tech military equipment, and we talked about how it is needed to
have plates seperated from each other to be efficient at withstanding SC's, even if i wanted to i wouldnt be able to think back on how we got onto the
topic of SC's
Bot0nist yes i can imagine how the aluminium could then be dissolved away with something alike HCl, that would be quite possible... aluminium foil can
be formed into something nearly as hard as solid aluminium, ill try to search for it, sounds like something that became forgotten knowledge?!
actually... can anybody explain me why its never seen that iron is used? is this something about the fourth state of matter that im absolutely blank
on or is it simply the metallic properties disallowing iron or perhaps even other materials alike lead to be used?
lead could be pressed without much force into a cone..
edit:
10 fingers club shows how to use FMJ bullets as liners
could the potentially not so smoothly formed copper cone be dipped in electroplating solution rather than soldering?
a person in another SC thread asked why not use entire bottle, good question.. it would allow the use of HNO3 / NM without having to consider its
etching properties
still wonder if aluminium foil might somehow be useful, lead could be plated on to create a H2SO4 proof coating / cone shaper better than just
aluminium foil?
[Edited on 22-1-2014 by Antiswat]
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Ral123
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I have the feeling that if the mass of the energetic material and tamping is much greater then the weight of the cone, you can get away with cone
inperfections and zero standoff distance. But you have to watch out for inconsistency in the material. No powders.
For now I'd recommend you to make a nice linear shaped charge, with high power material, good (inertial)confinement and fine linear material.
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VladimirLem
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| Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat | damn.. yes i did suppose i would need quite the charge for it to work, martini glass i did consider, but i would need something alike a sandpaper
machine (supposing you know im talking about band-sandpaper machine)
i tried searching for smaller martini glass, and actually heard norwegians use martini glass alot, although there sadly arent any small martini glass
around |
uh wat?
how about this
doesnt looks as nice as more "professionhal" shaped charges, but it will give good results...
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roXefeller
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The developers actually try different materials for their effectiveness. Aluminum cones are used for concrete targets. Copper is used for its
malleable, flowing properties at temperatures far from melting. It flows really nicely and so it forms the EFP/jet effectively. This is exploited in
the wrought copper industries. They also use the property to lathe swage copper liners for SC purposes. This was described on the other SC thread.
The glass liners don't deform as well, they tend to break apart further into particulate.
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Bot0nist
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Atiswat, the copper cone came right off the Al fence post top, and it was reused, IIRC. Try and find the thread, some really good tips on
electroplating in it. He got an nice evenly formed liner too, if memory serves.
Edit: Here you go. I UTFSE for ya. A good read. Check it out.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14093&...
[Edited on 23-1-2014 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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NeonPulse
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as far as linear SC goes does anyone know how much stand off is needed in relation to the depth and width of the liner? A quick search turned up not
alot. i read 0 standoff was recommended by someone but also the internal height of the liner was used as standoff distance im not too sure and i only
have enough HE prepped for one decent go at it. failing that i guess its back to the lab for a few hours- its getting harder these days to get a few
spare hours.... also i am going to give the electroforming liners a shot, they look like are well worth the trouble for the time spent.
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Dornier 335A
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That setup works well, as demonstrated by Boomboom314159:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZN0-bW9esA
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Ral123
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I can't get an idea of the damage. Also, if the sand was wet, the damage would've been much better. At these pressures the dry sand would be much more
compressible.
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