| Pages:
1
2 |
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 702
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
Biuret ?
I saw this chemical from wikipedia and it looks interesting for nitration! Has anybody play with that ever ? It may have some good properties as an EM,
Maybe some di/trinitrobiuret or whatever...
[Edited on 13-1-2014 by underground]
|
|
|
Dany
Hazard to Others
Posts: 482
Registered: 3-8-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
take a look on this PhD thesis (2005):
PhD thesis
search in the Pdf for biuret.
Dany.
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 702
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
The link does not work for me. I can not open the pdf file
|
|
|
Dany
Hazard to Others
Posts: 482
Registered: 3-8-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
download from here:
http://www45.zippyshare.com/v/34298528/file.html
Dany.
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 702
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
Firstly a big thanks to Dany, a really good pdf file!
By the way,we have some good points here. Dinitrobiuret it looks like a little bit sensitive EM, i guess something close to ETN, but it looks stable
in air, i guess it will be also stable in storge, with positive OB and with VoD of 8660, almost as RDX. The positive OB may also help to further
increase the VoD with some addition fuel. Also, some salts can be formed. I bet that the ammonium salt of Dinitrobiuret shoud have a really high VoD
!! Or even better the guanidine salt of Dinitrobiuret!!
[Edited on 13-1-2014 by underground]
|
|
|
DubaiAmateurRocketry
National Hazard
Posts: 841
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: In research
|
|
Biuret have a very high negative heat of formation, therefore its less advantages compared to some other similar compounds such as guanidine and
carbohydrazide however, i believe biuret is more dense, and it can probably form salts such as biuret dinitrate.
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 702
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
I bet biuret will form more stable and storage salts than those of guanidine and urea, a really big advantage...
[Edited on 13-1-2014 by underground]
|
|
|
DubaiAmateurRocketry
National Hazard
Posts: 841
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: In research
|
|
Dinitrobiuret seems like it does not have a high impact sensitivity. some links for more info on DNB
https://www.google.ae/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&a...
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a547366.pdf
I still wonder if nitro-guanidine cation exist.
http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.16372117.html
such as one stated in this picture, it have similar OB with dinitrobiuret however it should be more energetic since the C=O group on dinitrobiuret
causes high negative hof.
|
|
|
VladimirLem
Hazard to Others
Posts: 204
Registered: 24-5-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have no fear <Vlad> is here.
|
|
sweet....very interesting stuff
but how to make the MonoNitro-compound?
simple synthesis with, lets say, 65% HNO3 ?
8660m/s and 33.9GPa sounds preety interesting...
they wrote that the performace of it will be between PETN and HMX !!
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 702
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
Also how biuret can be formed from urea ? and how can we separate it ?
Update:
Biuret It is formed during urea production upon heating urea at 80 Degree C and higher, especially above its melting point according due to the
following reaction release of ammonia:
2 CO(NH2)2 → H2N-CO-NH-CO-NH2 + NH3
[Edited on 13-1-2014 by underground]
|
|
|
DubaiAmateurRocketry
National Hazard
Posts: 841
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: In research
|
|
Umm.. I also think diamino guanidine, triamino guanidine, carbohydrazide competitive.
Elemental analysis of diamino guanidine compared to guanidine shows spectacular differences in its nitrogen content.
Diamino guanidine H2NNHC(NH)NHNH2, 13.5% Carbon, 78.6% Nitrogen, 7.9% Hydrogen,
Guanidine, CH5N3, 20.3% Carbon, 71.1% Nitrogen, 8.53% Hydrogen.
Carbohydrazide, CH6N4O, 13.3%Carbon, 6.7% Hydrogen, 62.2% Nitrogen, 17.7% Oxygen.
Biuret C2H5N3O2, 23.35%Carbon, 41% Nitrogen, 4.9% Hydrogen, 31% Oxygen
Urea, CH4N2O, 20% Carbon, 6.7% Hydrogen, 46.6% Nitrogen, 26.6% Oxygen.
Biuret has lowest nitrogen/highest carbon content with lowest heat of formation which is unfavorable to be used in EM which is most likely why its
less investigated, I am interested in carbohydrazide and diamino guanidine salts. They both can form 2+ cation. Diamino guanidine dinitrate [CH8N4O]2+
2[NO3]- (CH8N6O7) might have a good VoD.
Triamino guanidine nitrate (this mono nitrate version is not good)
http://www.explosia.cz/en/vupch/download/tagn.pdf
Dinitrate salts of above triamino, diamino, amino guanidine, and some others are mentioned in this patent. I still look forward to the didinitramide
version
http://www.google.nl/patents/CA2342366A1?cl=en
Also wonder if Urea dinitramide is ever synthesized.
[Edited on 14-1-2014 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 702
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
Also there is triuret out there.... What about triuret dinitrate ?
And one more think, how can i form different tipes of salts with dinitrobiuret as an cation, like ammonium dinitrobiuret ?
[Edited on 15-1-2014 by underground]
|
|
|
Motherload
Hazard to Others
Posts: 245
Registered: 12-8-2012
Location: Sewer
Member Is Offline
Mood: Shitty
|
|
I was thinking .... How Di Nitro Urea is used in Keto-RDX synth ....
What impact would it have if it was to be replaced by Di Nitro Biuret ??
Keto-HMX perhaps ?
"Chance favours the prepared mind"
"Fuck It !! We'll do it live !!"
|
|
|
DubaiAmateurRocketry
National Hazard
Posts: 841
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: In research
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Motherload  | I was thinking .... How Di Nitro Urea is used in Keto-RDX synth ....
What impact would it have if it was to be replaced by Di Nitro Biuret ??
Keto-HMX perhaps ? |
maybe not exactly what you want to see, and not same structure with HMX, however this is also 8 membered fused ringed compound has 2 dinitrourea
group(which include 2 keto and 4 NNO2, similar to that of HMX)
http://www.iloveexplosives.com/2008/10/sorguyl-aka-tgnu-synt...
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 702
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
Here is a copy - paste message from a very good friend on this forum 
From urea, biuret is obtainable via heating at a specific temperature (a little search in freepatents online should give you some hints...presence of
biuret is observable because of the specific coloration it displays with copper salts complexation...the solution turns from the usual blue to
pink-violet. Maybe there is an isolation process playing on that property; or fractionnal cristalization.
Once you have biuret...with diluted HNO3 you would get biuret dinitrate...allow to evaporate until dry and cristaline and finaly treat the dinitrate
with >98% H2SO4 (like the system to make nitroguanidine from guanidine nitrate -or- nitrourea from urea nitrate) to get the dinitrobiuret.
The investigation of the salts of DNBiuret might lead to discovery of new primaries or propellants!
O2N-N(Z)-CO-NH-CO-N(Z)-NO2
Z being a metal (Na,K, Pb, Cu, Ag, Hg, ...)or an amine (NH4, N2H5, NH3OH)...
|
|
|
Motherload
Hazard to Others
Posts: 245
Registered: 12-8-2012
Location: Sewer
Member Is Offline
Mood: Shitty
|
|
Are you sure one would get Di nitrate and not just nitrate in one step via dil HNO3 ?
"Chance favours the prepared mind"
"Fuck It !! We'll do it live !!"
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 702
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
This is a message from an another member on this forum... he told me that and then i just copy-paste the message
Also i was thinking for something else, biuret has more oxygen and nitrogen content and it is denser than guanidine. Also aminonitroguanidine nitrate
has a VoD 9750m/s calculated but unfortunately it is not so storage stable e.t.c. Ammonium Dinitroguanidine has a VoD 9055m/s calculated. So i was
thinking for aminonitrobiuret nitrate and Ammonium Dinitrobiuret not only because their VoD i guess would be greater, but also for their chemical and
storage stability.
[Edited on 5-2-2014 by underground]
|
|
|
VladimirLem
Hazard to Others
Posts: 204
Registered: 24-5-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have no fear <Vlad> is here.
|
|
i read alot about DNB last month and im pretty sure, that when taking diluted HNO3 at the first step, you get the mono-nitro compound....
i never read about (di)nitrate stuff when reacting biuret with HNO3
[Edited on 5-2-2014 by VladimirLem]
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 702
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by VladimirLem |
i read alot about DNB last month and im pretty sure, that when taking diluted HNO3 at the first step, you get the mono-nitro compound....
i never read about (di)nitrate stuff when reacting biuret with HNO3
[Edited on 5-2-2014 by VladimirLem] |
Can you share with us your sources about Dinitrobiuret ?
|
|
|
VladimirLem
Hazard to Others
Posts: 204
Registered: 24-5-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have no fear <Vlad> is here.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by underground | | Quote: Originally posted by VladimirLem |
i read alot about DNB last month and im pretty sure, that when taking diluted HNO3 at the first step, you get the mono-nitro compound....
i never read about (di)nitrate stuff when reacting biuret with HNO3
[Edited on 5-2-2014 by VladimirLem] |
Can you share with us your sources about Dinitrobiuret ? |
i searched the shit out of google and only found a few PDFs...
"High energy density materials based on tetrazole and nitramine compounds"
"Dinitrobiuret & its Salts"
"thermal decomposition of 1,5-DiNitroBiuret"
there are very rare informations out there :/ the VoD and performace seems pretty interesting...but no sources about exact density.
Solublity (Mono, Nitro) is anywhere in the PDFs.
DNB seems to be chemical instable to alkaline compounds.
i also found a source that said, making biuret out of urea will be a damn long and inefficient process (heating for days at the decomposition
themerature of urea) so i dounbt i will ever make it and carry on with electroforming copper-lines for shaped charges (and testing some easier to make
explosives of course^^)
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 702
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
I though that biuret could easily be made out of urea,this thing change everything.
|
|
|
VladimirLem
Hazard to Others
Posts: 204
Registered: 24-5-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have no fear <Vlad> is here.
|
|
well...this source says something about a few hours, but the yield seems to be not really good...
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11814-009-0164-0...
the advantage is, that it seems to be very easy to wash the urea/biuret mixture with cold water and getting 95%< biuret, cause urea is very soluble
in water and biuret just a little bit
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 702
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
Those catalysts looks really dificult to find... Have you got any document about the temperature, the quantity of urea used, the time is needed and
the final yelds of biuret ?
|
|
|
VladimirLem
Hazard to Others
Posts: 204
Registered: 24-5-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have no fear <Vlad> is here.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by underground |
Those catalysts looks really dificult to find... Have you got any document about the temperature, the quantity of urea used, the time is needed and
the final yelds of biuret ? |
i didnt read the complete text...and by the way, i see this link doesnt work correct...when browsing from google, a pdf opens (images below)
 
|
|
|
underground
National Hazard
Posts: 702
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
|
|
So it looks like the yelds are close to 22%, This is not so bad, urea is cheap and this reaction can be used with big quantities to get as much biuret
as you like
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
