chemrox
International Hazard
Posts: 2961
Registered: 18-1-2007
Location: UTM
Member Is Offline
Mood: LaGrangian
|
|
tryptamines in RCG
I got a call for papers from a wetland science org I belong to. I have planned to study Phalaris arundinacea to see whether reports of it's
containing psychoactive tryptamines are true. If it does, is it subspecies dependent? Location dependent? Time of year? The last will have to wait
until I've gathered more data but I was planning on doing a month long study using ultra simple techniques. I understand a good solvent for
N,N-dimethyl tryptamine is ethyl acetate. However diethyl ether is cheaper and easier to work with so I plan to use it as the extraction solvent. My
1.5 liter extractor is missing the bottom screen so I will have to fabricate. I have a reference sample of 5-meo dmt so I will have a spot for
comparison. Obviously I don't have dmt but I am looking for any published rf values I can use. Any feedback on solvents (or anything else) would be
appreciated. Also I don't have a lot of refs yet. A good application for scifinder...anyway; if you know some please pass along. If the alleged dmt
content turns out to be more than a bio-suburban legend I will present the finding as a possible solution to the growing populations of RCG.
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
|
|
|
Diablo
Hazard to Others
Posts: 113
Registered: 17-9-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: Autodidactic
|
|
Phalaris arduinacea aontains in varying amounts N,N-Dimethyltryptamine 5-meo-Dmt, 5-oh-dmt, gramine and some others. Alkaloid content can be
increased by stressing the plants and seem to be concentrated in the leaves. Xanthydrol can be used to determine the dominant alkaloid present as it
will change color in their presence although I am having trouble finding the color chart again.
Usually either N,N-DMT or 5-meo-dmt is the dominant alkaloid present in most phalaris species.
Also gramine has been found to have an ld50 of around 50 mg/kg in mice, which if tre for humans would likely not be a concern considering that 70 mg
of alkaloid is a high dose.
Some subspecies of Phalaris arundinacea have higer concentrations of alkaloids, I have also read that shaded plant produce a higher concentration of
alkaloids.
When running an acid base extraction on phalaris a defatting step is highly recommended.
[Edited on 29-6-2012 by Diablo]
|
|
|
bbartlog
International Hazard
Posts: 1139
Registered: 27-8-2009
Location: Unmoored in time
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You can get ethyl acetate pretty cheap at Lowe's (as MEK substitute), and it's 100% ethyl acetate according to : http://www.wmbarr.com/ProductFiles/1636%20KS%20MEK%20Substit... . Was about US $6 per liter as I recall.
As for references, did you follow up the links from Wikipedia? Couple of steps shows you:
Smith, T.A. 1977. Review: Tryptamine and Related Compounds in Plants. Phytochemistry 16 171-175.
...as the source for the claim of dmt content.
The less you bet, the more you lose when you win.
|
|
|
chemrox
International Hazard
Posts: 2961
Registered: 18-1-2007
Location: UTM
Member Is Offline
Mood: LaGrangian
|
|
refs
Yes-I should have mentioned having those refs. They're pretty old.. same ones Shulgin cited and I'm a little skeptical. A lot of sketchy stuff
happens in academic biochemistry when publication deadlines come due. Anyway (self slap on hand) there are regional variations and time of year
variations in phytochemistry. Maybe all the rich silt in the Willamette Valley makes them too 'happy' to make much dmt or maybe they make all kinds.
Thanks for the information on et-acetate. I still lean toward ether just because it flashes off so quickly. It's not like I'm expecting grams of dmt
per run.
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
|
|
|
Nicodem
|
Thread Moved
29-6-2012 at 22:54 |
Adas
National Hazard
Posts: 711
Registered: 21-9-2011
Location: Slovakia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sensitive to shock and friction
|
|
I think that the presence of the toxic gramine is not worth the DMT extraction.
Rest In Pieces!
|
|
|
Diablo
Hazard to Others
Posts: 113
Registered: 17-9-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: Autodidactic
|
|
Gramine might not be toxic in recreational dmt doses.
|
|
|
White Yeti
National Hazard
Posts: 816
Registered: 20-7-2011
Location: Asperger's spectrum
Member Is Offline
Mood: delocalized
|
|
Perhaps the gramine can be selectively degraded by using a carefully engineered bacterium?
"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
|
|
|
Adas
National Hazard
Posts: 711
Registered: 21-9-2011
Location: Slovakia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sensitive to shock and friction
|
|
Or just engineer the plant to produce no gramine and more DMT 
Rest In Pieces!
|
|
|
White Yeti
National Hazard
Posts: 816
Registered: 20-7-2011
Location: Asperger's spectrum
Member Is Offline
Mood: delocalized
|
|
That's definately a possibility. Let us know when you've succeeded
Does anyone know of a biochemical pathway used to degrade gramine specifically? Monoamine oxidase is not an option, as it would degrade DMT as well.
"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
|
|
|
Adas
National Hazard
Posts: 711
Registered: 21-9-2011
Location: Slovakia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sensitive to shock and friction
|
|
I think no one does  I don't think there was any research on this. But we can
probably lower the gramine : DMT ratio by evaporation - Wikipedia says (I don't know whether it is legit or not), that MP of gramine is around 120°C
and that of DMT is around 40°C. If this is true, their boiling points also differ greatly, so we can just evaporate DMT and catch its vapors, while
gramine remains in the container.
[Edited on 11-7-2012 by Adas]
Rest In Pieces!
|
|
|
Diablo
Hazard to Others
Posts: 113
Registered: 17-9-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: Autodidactic
|
|
There's always chromatography.
|
|
|
bbartlog
International Hazard
Posts: 1139
Registered: 27-8-2009
Location: Unmoored in time
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'd be skeptical that gramine has a higher bp than DMT. It's a similar but slightly smaller molecule. Quite possible that wikipedia has the melting
point wrong as well.
The less you bet, the more you lose when you win.
|
|
|
Adas
National Hazard
Posts: 711
Registered: 21-9-2011
Location: Slovakia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sensitive to shock and friction
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by bbartlog  | | I'd be skeptical that gramine has a higher bp than DMT. It's a similar but slightly smaller molecule. Quite possible that wikipedia has the melting
point wrong as well. |
But I have seen another sources, stating te same...
Rest In Pieces!
|
|
|
Diablo
Hazard to Others
Posts: 113
Registered: 17-9-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: Autodidactic
|
|
According to some research done on another forum, gramine is practically insoluble in cold limonene and naptha.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
