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Vikascoder
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PROBLEM DETONATING PICRIC ACID
friends i have made picric acid by using powerlab's method and it works great . the problem i am facing is in its detonation . to test whether it
detonates with physical shock or not i placed it in between two coins then hit it very hard with hammer it didnt detonate it even didnt puff ,nothing
happened . what could be the problem with its detonation ?. i can surely say that it is picric acid but why it is not detonating ?. i read on google
that it needs a very strong confinement to detonate .will anyone please tell me a easy way to detonate it.
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Hexavalent
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Is it completely dry?
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
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VladimirLem
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| Quote: |
i read on google that it needs a very strong confinement to detonate |
i guess thats your problem 
u need a strong Cap (#8 or stronger) to set it off...
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Fossil
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Coins are not perfectly flat. Your picric acid may not be getting the full force of your hammer blow. Try something that has no indentations, so a
perfectly flat surface. BTW wear ear plugs, even if you are outside, it wont be pleasant for you if you don't have something to protect your ears.
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Vikascoder
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my picric acid is completely dry.@VladimirLem since picric acid is used as a booster in blasting cap then it should be easy to set it off. why it
will require no8 blasting cap? the persons who have detonated your picric acid please tell me how to detonate it.
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Bhaskar
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Hmm..
Why don't you try metallic salts of picric acid?
I believe you will have better luck in detonating them...
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Vikascoder
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Quote: Originally posted by Bhaskar  | Hmm..
Why don't you try metallic salts of picric acid?
I believe you will have better luck in detonating them...
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metallic salts are generally primary explosive i have already detonated them but they are not as powerful as TNP and i need a base charge for my
blasting caps.
which one is better idea to increase the sensitivity of picri acid .
1-- mixing picric acid with little nitoglycerine.
2-- mixing picric acid with HMTD.
3-- mixing picric acid with sulfur .
they all seems to be crazy ideas but what is the best way to increase sensitivity of picric acid
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SM2
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Bhaskars right, K picrate will probably detonate upon sufficient concussion. Trinitrophenol, no way. You need a high velocity initiator for that
one. Doesn't have to be big, just need the speed. While your at it, light up a small sample of K-Picrate, and tell us how it whistles!
Vikascoder , I'd be afraid to somehow increase the sensitivity of picric acid in this uncontrolled manner. Is a slow reaction occurring? Does the
sensitivity increase over time? So, will it perhaps explode on its own next time you open the jar, and scrape a few crystals between the jar threads
and glass? HMTD is a high enough velocity detonator to reach the activation energy of picric acid detonation. But HMTD scares me. You really have
to take extra steps to make sure it is pure. You really have to make sure it is dry, but without the use of excessive heat. Nitro is a good
initiator, and it may be fast enough to take picric off w/ it. Nice thing is it's not too sensitive, so you never have to worry about nitro going off
by accident. But nitro is god awfully toxic, and it behaves as it's own escipient. So getting a drop or two on your hands can easily put you out of
commission for up to an hour, or worse. You'll have a miserable head-ache, and feel like you went on a long isopropyl nitrite binge - yuck!
Honestly, the best luck you may have is to fill an empty CO2 or nitrous mini-cylinder with nitro-glycol, and just stick a green fuse into that. I can
almost guarantee this will bring picric acid to full orgasm, and it's even less sensitive than nitro. Your results ah may vary. Please consult
manual, light fuse, and get away.
[Edited on 6-6-2012 by Fennel Ass Ih Tone]
[Edited on 6-6-2012 by Fennel Ass Ih Tone]
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Vikascoder
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| Quote: Originally posted by Fennel Ass Ih Tone | Bhaskars right, K picrate will probably detonate upon sufficient concussion. Trinitrophenol, no way. You need a high velocity initiator for that
one. Doesn't have to be big, just need the speed. While your at it, light up a small sample of K-Picrate, and tell us how it whistles!
Vikascoder , I'd be afraid to somehow increase the sensitivity of picric acid in this uncontrolled manner. Is a slow reaction occurring? Does the
sensitivity increase over time? So, will it perhaps explode on its own next time you open the jar, and scrape a few crystals between the jar threads
and glass? HMTD is a high enough velocity detonator to reach the activation energy of picric acid detonation. But HMTD scares me. You really have
to take extra steps to make sure it is pure. You really have to make sure it is dry, but without the use of excessive heat. Nitro is a good
initiator, and it may be fast enough to take picric off w/ it. Nice thing is it's not too sensitive, so you never have to worry about nitro going off
by accident. But nitro is god awfully toxic, and it behaves as it's own escipient. So getting a drop or two on your hands can easily put you out of
commission for up to an hour, or worse. You'll have a miserable head-ache, and feel like you went on a long isopropyl nitrite binge - yuck!
Honestly, the best luck you may have is to fill an empty CO2 or nitrous mini-cylinder with nitro-glycol, and just stick a green fuse into that. I can
almost guarantee this will bring picric acid to full orgasm, and it's even less sensitive than nitro. Your results ah may vary. Please consult
manual, light fuse, and get away.
[Edited on 6-6-2012 by Fennel Ass Ih Tone]
[Edited on 6-6-2012 by Fennel Ass Ih Tone] |
i have already posted in my previous post that i have already
detonate metal picrates but they are primary explosive and i need a base charge for my blasting cap. For this purpose i made picric acid but now i am
not able to detonate. Will anyone tell me the easy way for detonating it . Or making it more sensitive so that it can be easily detonated.
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mabuse_
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I'll just quote Mr. Quicksilver on this issue:
| Quote: |
There is a simple and easy method to tell if you have TNP or a lower nitrated (DNP). Take a tiny weight such as a few milligrams (like a matchhead's
worth) and wrap it in aluminum foil - place it on a steel anvil (wear GOGGLES) and strike it with a steel hammer. If it pops like a toy cap you're in
business. if it does not react to impact stimulation, it is either DNP or has a great deal of DNP in it. Please do NOT place a heavier amount on the
anvil. IF you have TNP the bang will be unpleasant. |
Maybe your nitration did not work out so well.
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quicksilver
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To achieve a TRI-NITRATION (with the majority) care in temperature control must be maintained or else the final product will have a majority of
DI-NITRATION, which WILL function as a medium for metal picrates yet will not have much impact sensitivity. Often a clean TNP will be very light in
color. A product that is close to pure TNP will almost be a "white-yellow", the crystals will be well formed & as little as 50Mg will pop when
impact tested.
Many factors may affect this issue; temperature, time in mixed acids, quality of both precursor and acid control of nitration bath (stirring in bath
i.e. exposure & quality of acids). Many nitrations of phenols/poly-pheols) will have lower nitrations exist within the end result. The percentage
matters a great deal and can be altered by several components.
If you alter any nitration, - alter them one at a time and keep notes so that you find the problematic agenda
[Edited on 6-6-2012 by quicksilver]
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Hennig Brand
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Picric acid is very insensitive compared to most of the other explosives we experiment with. Its sensitivity is generally considered to be only
slightly more than TNT, and much less than the nitric esters. A fairly pure sample should still pop with a firm snap from a hammer on an anvil (steel
on steel). Note that even small amounts of most primary explosives will be able to generate more localized heat and pressure than a hammer blow .
Picric acid, especially if impure, is known to be stubborn to initiate. Also, even large quantities in shells driven by boosters have been known to
show incomplete detonation and/or low order detonation (yellow vapor and/or residue was often seen when picric acid shells were detonated). Picric
acid is however very storage stable and the insentivity can be a good thing from a safety perspective.
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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Vikascoder
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What about tri nitro resorcinol is it also so insensitive like picric acid or it can be easily initiated . Is there any way to make picric acid more
sensitive .
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Hennig Brand
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I have only ever used trinitroresorcinol to make lead styphnate, so I don't have any personal experience. However, according to Rosco
trinitroresorcinol is quite a bit easier to initiate than picric acid. There are posts by Rosco on this in the "Picric acid different instructions"
thread.
I don't know that much about sensitizing Picric Acid, but there has to be lots of different things that could be mixed with it that would increase
overall sensitivity. I know a very common mixture seen in some of the older books was picric acid mixed with potassium nitrate, which was apparently
easier to set off. I would have to look up the exact composition. Note, that most sensitizing additives will likely decrease storage stability and
produce an explosive with less overall power. Picric acid is probably best used in pure form in a compound cap, with a suitably powerful initiator to
set it off.
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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quicksilver
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What we are discussing is similar to Fedroff's "Hot Spot" initiation. A relatively light blow from a steel punch can produce a pop from a very low
weight.
-=IF=- you can work well with sulfonation, nitrated pheonals. Spyphnic Acid is actually easier to with with than many materials. (Resorsonol) IS a bit
tough to get but the yield is pretty good and lead styphate has a type of "flame spit" that allows it's utility to be quite flexible for many
applications. There was a great deal written and fair pictures on this but it was back in '06-'08..
IF you can't find phenols; a good source is cattle bolices (very large, nearly pure cattle aspirin, approx $7 per pound. Often experimentation is
demanded to get sulfonation is extensive and notes and mandatory.
[Edited on 10-6-2012 by quicksilver]
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Vikascoder
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Quicksilver I have made picric acid But the problem comes in increasing its sensitivity . Will any one please give valuable knowledge no the topic
how to increase the sensitivity of picric acid so that it can be easily initiated without providing lots of confinement.
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meaniac
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Not my field of expertise, but knowing that lead picrate is a primary explosive, perhaps a very low concentration in the PA would increase sensitivity
enough to be useful but not become dangerous. Uniform concentration would be the key.
Perhaps recrystallise the PA from hot water containing some small amount of heavy metal?
Some explosives have sensitivity depending on crystal size (tiny crystals = less sensitive). Slower cooling generally gives larger crystals. That may
help.
Good luck with those experiments. Lots of people have lost vital bits of themselves messing with this stuff.
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Hennig Brand
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The solubility of lead picrate is extremely low compared to picric acid. They would most likely have to be mixed after they were made. Mixing lead
picrate with picric acid would definitely increase sensitivity and of course reduce safety as well. There was a document posted in the "Picric acid
different instructions" thread about initiating picric acid with only lead picrate. It involved mixing lead picrate with picric acid in certain
proportions and made claims that picric acid could be initiated with just lead picrate alone. The whole thing sounded very improvised and I never got
around to trying it (though I meant to).
Slow cooling of a slightly less than saturated solution of picric acid will produce larger crystals. Large picric acid crystals are known to be more
sensitive to initiation. Even with large crystals, initiation of picric acid still requires a fairly potent initiator, I have found.
Something to keep in mind is that the critical diameter for picric acid is much more than for most of the other suitable candidates for a base charge.
When initiating a picric acid base charge in a larger diameter casing, in order to maintain the same initiator charge height as was had with the
smaller diameter casing, more initiator must be used.
A little extra confinement can also make a huge difference, especially with small charge weight (like in a cap).
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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Bot0nist
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I doubt your picric acid is fully nitrated. The nitration is not trivial to get right, and there is no real easy way to determine if you have the DI
or TRI variety. It took me many tries and a lot of notes to get the nitration to give me good, consistent yields of TNP. The determination that it was
TNP and not mostly DNP was made with an impact testing apparatus. Wrap a small bit of TNP tightly in foil, place it on a smooth steel surface, and hit
it with a smooth steel hammer. If it is TNP it WILL make your ears ring. If it is mostly DNP, you will not be able to make it pop, even with a very
hard hit from the hammer. Note, the steel surfaces must be smooth. Anything bumpy or purpose will not work well for impact testing.
Before you worry about sensitizing your product, you need to get the synthesis worked out. Like I said, it is really easy to get DNP and a bunch of
oxidized red crap, but when you finally get it right and get TNP, it will respond to the impact testing. I promise.
Get your synthesis right and it will pop.
[Edited on 12-6-2012 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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Ral123
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Is the sensitivity same as RDX? I can make little rdx go off without foil from a nice hammer hit. Is the not fully nitrated product storage stable?
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caterpillar
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| Quote: Originally posted by Ral123 | | Is the sensitivity same as RDX? I can make little rdx go off without foil from a nice hammer hit. Is the not fully nitrated product storage stable?
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Picric acid is less sensitive than RDX. I do not think, that making TNP more sensitive is a good idea. Make a detonator- TATP or double salt- silver
carbide-nitrate. Or make some lead picrate and use it to wake TNP up, but NEVER make sensitive secondaries.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Vikascoder
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I need to make picric acid more sensitive for my purpose . You are correct caterpillar that in detonator it should be used as it is . But for my
purpose i need to make it more sensitive . So please suggest some ways to make it more sensitive
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Ral123
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Pour with egdn (I would never waste nice material like picric like that)... Why you need it more sensitive btw? You need less critical diameter or
what?
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caterpillar
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| Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder | | I need to make picric acid more sensitive for my purpose . You are correct caterpillar that in detonator it should be used as it is . But for my
purpose i need to make it more sensitive . So please suggest some ways to make it more sensitive |
Convert TNP to kalium picrate- it explodes, been ignited in confinement and is less sensitive than lead picrate. Or add some lead picrate to picric
acid. But it will be dangerous mixture.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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VladimirLem
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| Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder | | I need to make picric acid more sensitive for my purpose . You are correct caterpillar that in detonator it should be used as it is . But for my
purpose i need to make it more sensitive . So please suggest some ways to make it more sensitive |
hm...maybe some percents of ammonia nitrate ?
hm...TNP is an acid...could be a bit dangerous?!
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