| Pages:
1
2 |
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
Preparation of Hydrazine Sulfate Paper
Note from bfesser:
Credit where credit is due. This write-up is <del>plagiarized</del> based heavily on work by UnintentionalChaos,
demonstrated in his YouTube videos (UC235):
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCrDttuw5co" target="_blank">Synthesis of Hydrazine Sulfate: Part 1</a> <img
src="../scipics/_yt.png" />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URIAB32Q_JQ" target="_blank">Synthesis of Hydrazine Sulfate: Part 2</a> <img
src="../scipics/_yt.png" />
Which, in turn, was based on <a href="viewthread.php?tid=15091">Preparation of Hydrazine Sulfate (Hofmann
Degradation)</a> by Magpie, and so on.
<hr width="80%" />
Could everyone please have a look at this and tell me what you think?
-Thanks
Attachment: Synthesis of Hydrazine Sulfate via the Hoffmann Rearrangement Process.pdf (173kB)
This file has been downloaded 1529 times
<!-- bfesser_edit_tag -->[<a href="u2u.php?action=send&username=bfesser">bfesser</a>: added
note]
[Edited on 2.11.13 by bfesser]
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
ScienceSquirrel
International Hazard
Posts: 1863
Registered: 18-6-2008
Location: Brittany
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dogs are pets but cats are little furry humans with four feet and self determination! 
|
|
How much gelatine did you add?
|
|
|
UnintentionalChaos
International Hazard
Posts: 1454
Registered: 9-12-2006
Location: Mars
Member Is Offline
Mood: Nucleophilic
|
|
Seriously....
Soooooo.....
You wrote up my youtube video down to the gram amounts and put your name on it, with mine 3rd, no less?
I used 0.6g of gelatine powder, Sciencesquirrel.
The only discrepancies from my prep were that you added the NaOCl/NaOH solution at a much lower rate than I did. I ran it in as quickly as my addition
funnel could, as slower addition reportedly messes up the yield. You also used way too little sulfuric acid unless you were expecting truly terrible
yields (10ml=18.4g~184mmol). Dihydrazinium sulfate is quite soluble and an excess of acid is necessary to precipitate the poorly soluble "hydrazinium
bisulfate" if you will. I used 40g of sulfuric acid. The sodium hypochlorite comprised 527mmol, putting a cap on the yield (other reagents were in
excess). The 40g of sulfuric reflected an optimistic 75% yield maximum based on this hypochlorite- a known excess based on previous experiments.
Actual yield was 53% with freshly prepared sodium hypochlorite (with a bare mimimum of excess NaOH) and 47% after it had sat for a month or so and
probably degraded a bit.
As for references, I more or less built off of previous experimenters....I looked at Rosco's and magpie's writeups and deliberately increased the urea
excess. These are originally based on Merck patent GB392845. The isolation of the product is based on Nurdrage's video utilizing the ketazine process.
[Edited on 2-16-12 by UnintentionalChaos]
Department of Redundancy Department - Now with paperwork!
'In organic synthesis, we call decomposition products "crap", however this is not a IUPAC approved nomenclature.' -Nicodem
|
|
|
Lambda-Eyde
National Hazard
Posts: 860
Registered: 20-11-2008
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cleaved
|
|
You're thirteen?! Are you sure about that?
That's some very nice work you've done there, I have only a few minor remarks:
1. You don't actually give the references. Those are normally given in the end of the document, in a list.
2. Instead of "Here is the method that was used" you should simply have a heading that says "Experimental".
3. Also, listing the steps in the reaction (with numbering) isn't customary.
But, as I said, that's some mighty fine work. What software did you use for the pdf?
This just in: 95,5 % of the world population lives outside the USA
Please drop by our IRC channel: #sciencemadness @ irc.efnet.org
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
Thanks a lot for the input. Yes, Lambda, I'm 13!
I will add references at the end, and change the sub-heading to 'Experimental'
Will also remove steps.
I actually prepared the document as a Word 2007 Document, and, when I'd finished, changed the saving options to save it as a PDF.
UC - I made my 12.5% NaClO using a different method to you and with a higher driprate I found that foam would start to flood the RBF and go up into
the condenser, hence the slower driprate.
My apologies for the acid quantities, I ran a small scale batch first and copied that amount instead.
Additionally, the yield I stated was my own calculated yield, not yours.
As for 'copying' your YouTube video, you didn't invent the synthesis . . .surely you should take pride that people like the way you present your work
and want to use and adapt it for their own purposes. If the quantities you state are the exact molar quantities needed, then why reinvent the wheel
and try and do it for myself? Waste of time if you ask me
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
Here is the edited version;
Attachment: Chem2.pdf (242kB)
This file has been downloaded 1040 times
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
zoombafu
Hazard to Others
Posts: 255
Registered: 21-11-2011
Location: U.S.
Member Is Offline
Mood: sciencey
|
|
Very nice work. It would also be nice to include some pictures if you took any.
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
I did hope to take some but my camera was being buggy . . .so you'll have to take my word for it. What are the chances of this getting into Member
Publications?
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
|
|
Nice writeup. Some suggested revisions before it goes to Member Publications:
In the introduction you state 42% yield; it would be nice if you restated the yield at the end of the experimental section in terms of grams. You also
didn't say if the yield was based on hypochlorite or urea (I would guess hypochlorite, since urea is in excess). That also reminds me that molar
equivalents would be nice.
In describing the urea solution preparation, you say "39g of recrystallized urea was then added to a 1L single-neck RBF with 600mg (0.6g) alongside
50ml of distilled water." I think that sentence is missing "gelatine" before "alongside."
Finally, if you prepared your own hypochlorite solution, and did it in a manner different from your references, that preparation deserves its own
discussion. This is especially true as 12.5% hypochlorite solution is not so commonly OTC as weaker 3-6% material.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
Thanks Polverone.
I will include the yields at the end and will change the urea sentence.
OK, slip of words, I did not make the hypochlorite solution - I actually purchased 14-15% NaOCl;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sodium-Hypochlorite-14-15-w-w-500m...
and let it degrade somewhat on purpose.
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
Edited version with everyone's suggestions;
Attachment: Chem3.pdf (249kB)
This file has been downloaded 1565 times
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
UnintentionalChaos
International Hazard
Posts: 1454
Registered: 9-12-2006
Location: Mars
Member Is Offline
Mood: Nucleophilic
|
|
Frankly, I think that what we need for member publications is a review of the hydrazine thread (or at least the state of amateur hydrazine sulfate
synthesis), not an isolated synthetic procedure. Ideally this should contain a reference rich introduction with discussion of all reasonable methods,
especially the historically (and industrially?) important raschig process (procedure for lab scale here: http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/orgsyn/prepContent.asp?prep=cv1...). The chlorourea method that seems to present difficulties can be mentioned.
Following that, one should discuss and provide procedure for the Mr. Anonymous (Rosco Bodine's) prep at full scale. Notes should include discussion
that scale reduction, as noted by Rosco and elaborated on by others, including Magpie leads to reduced yield. Assuming we get his permission to do so,
a written preparative procedure based on Nurdrage's ketazine process video should be next.
My hybrid preparation, being largely derivative of the previous two and not particularly out of the box, but still of possible utility, should be
last. In my eyes, its merits are elimination of potential NaCl contamination and reduction in acid consumption. At no time is free hydrazine able to
leave the apparatus if a ground glass apparatus is used. The volumes of concentrated ammonia needed for the ketazine process are eliminated and
replaced by cheap urea. It's downsides are increased effort for a similar yield to a small scale Mr. A prep, and requirement for MEK (which may be
hard for some to come by), though it can be partly recycled. A bare-bones take on it could be to extract the regular Mr A. reaction mix with MEK and
boil the organic phase with aq. sulfuric acid, eliminating need for the fancy glassware (which exist largely to prevent exposure to hydrazine). While
running it in glass apparatus, the batch size is also constained by the flask size. A 1L flask only gets about 0.25mol per run.
Are there any that I'm forgetting to mention? I seem to remember something about H2O2/NH3/MEK but I don't remember if sufficient experimental details
were provided for any sort of write up.
Department of Redundancy Department - Now with paperwork!
'In organic synthesis, we call decomposition products "crap", however this is not a IUPAC approved nomenclature.' -Nicodem
|
|
|
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
|
|
UnintentionalChaos, you are right that a comprehensive review of amateur-friendly hydrazine syntheses would be nice. I hope someone will make that
wiki page when we have a forum-linked wiki. In the mean time, if you or anyone else wants to produce a standalone PDF file reviewing the topic, I
would be glad to add it to the Member Publications section. I just don't have the time to make the review myself.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
|
|
|
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
|
|
Hexavalent, I have placed your writeup in Member Publications.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
Thanks Polverone. I assume to make pure liquid hydrazine you could mix the sulfate with a stoichiometric amount of base and distill of the hydrazine?
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
bfesser
Resident Wikipedian
Posts: 2114
Registered: 29-1-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Hexavalent  | Thanks Polverone. I assume to make pure liquid hydrazine you could mix the sulfate with a stoichiometric amount of base and distill of the hydrazine?
|
 Let me get this straight, you've synthesized hydrazine sulfate, but you have
no idea how to work with it? Maybe you should finish kiddie chemistry before graduating to the big kid stuff. In all seriousness, stick to
experimental work that won't kill you or others until, your understanding has improved. However, it is not my intention to discourage you from
pursuing chemistry.
---
Be careful not to plagiarize the work of others. It would be nice to see some more primary sources in your writeup--literature references, patents,
etc. Wikipedia should </strong>never</strong> be listed as a reference. All Wikipedia articles have a list of references from which
material and facts have been drawn.
---
Some other notes:
-Aside from the first letter of a sentence, you should not capitalize the first letter of compound or element names. e.g. sodium hydroxide; not
Sodium Hydroxide
-If you're on a Windows machine, use the Character Map to insert a degree symbol in place of your asterisks. Meaning is important here. In MS Word
'07, select Symbol from the Insert tab. If you're on Mac, use whatever the hell it is that they offer--probably spin the wheel to the left for 4
hours, then click the single center button.  In HTML, it's
<strong>&deg;</strong>
-Quoted from Wikipedia: "The expansion is typically given at the first occurrence of the acronym within a given text, for the benefit of those readers
who do not know what it stands for." This is a common rule for chemical publications. Introduce methyl ethyl ketone before referring to MEK.
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
That seems rather rude to me. Telling me off instead of suggesting things politely like everybody else on this thread has.
Yes, I do know how to work with hydrazine sulfate and believed that it could be mixed with the base to create the liquid. I was merely confirming my
knowledge. My understanding is sufficient, thankyou.
How many more sources are necessary? The ones stated were the only ones I used, alongside my own personal experience.
Sodium Hydroxide vs sodium hydroxide . . .grammar Nazi.
Sorry about the MEK, but I think most people reading the publication would be aware of what it means. I would have done the way you said if I were
writing for a public paper, for example, where not everybody would know its definition.
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
Formatik
National Hazard
Posts: 927
Registered: 25-3-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: equilibrium
|
|
| Quote: | | I assume to make pure liquid hydrazine you could mix the sulfate with a stoichiometric amount of base and distill of the hydrazine?
|
Not something you want to try without remote controlled equipment, or a sacrificial hot plate and running like hell.
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
Yeah, I value my limbs, head and other bodily extensions too much to even attempt to make hydrazine in its liquid form. Just a bit of chemical
curiosity
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Hexavalent | ....I assume to make pure liquid hydrazine you could mix the sulfate with a stoichiometric amount of base and distill of the hydrazine?
|
You should check the forum library for the procedure for this...Brauer IIRC. There's a reason why a "silver or copper distilling flask" is specified.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
|
|
|
Nicodem
Super Moderator
Posts: 4230
Registered: 28-12-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Hexavalent | | That seems rather rude to me. Telling me off instead of suggesting things politely like everybody else on this thread has. |
First, let me congratulate for your success at such an early age. You did an excellent job. However, you should not interpret bfesser's rather direct,
but totally benign words, in such an emotional way. I understand that teenagers live in their own fragile world, but sometimes it is worthwhile to
listen the advices of elders with coldblooded rationality. You must understand that the synthesis you undertook is not appropriate for those who don't
have years of experience in practical chemistry. Therefore, it is comprehensible that many will look at every word you say very critically, looking
out for signs of kewlishness or irresponsible behavior. Bfesser gave you some good advices on how to write reports and his and the following warnings
on safety are all valid. There are many other experiments and syntheses you can perform in order to improve your skills to prepare yourself for the
more demanding ones. Killing and maiming yourself at an early age is certainly not the best way to become a (live) chemist. Listening to good advices
is much better.
PS: The wrong structure of hydrazine sulfate on the first page of the article should be corrected. References to primary literature instead of the
obsolete wikipedia link would also increase the value.
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
Thankyou Nicodem. I appreciate what you, and bfesser, have said and I genuinely understand where you are coming from.
Is this a more correct way of displaying Hydrazine Sulfate, showing that the sulfuric acid has essentially protonated the hydrazine;
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Hydrazine...
I have undergone many experiments previously and, TBH, this was what interested me next. I have done many Fischer Esterifications, have attempted the
preparation of anhydrous AlCl3 and hope to do a Grignard next with the arrival of my magnesium powder.
Infact BTW, my hydrazine sulfate will only be used as a source of hydrazine to condense 3-nitrophthalic acid with hydrazine to generate
3-nitrophthalhydrazide.
Could you suggest any other medium organic chem or advanced inorganic chem experiments that I could try? I have looked at Woelen's site and done most
of the experiments he shows that I have the materials for.
-Hexavalent
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
zoombafu
Hazard to Others
Posts: 255
Registered: 21-11-2011
Location: U.S.
Member Is Offline
Mood: sciencey
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Hexavalent |
Could you suggest any other medium organic chem or advanced inorganic chem experiments that I could try? I have looked at Woelen's site and done most
of the experiments he shows that I have the materials for.
-Hexavalent |
Do extractions. They are extremely fun and can often leave you with nice fragrant compounds. You could extract essential oils from certain plants
(just look it up on the internet), and then purify the compound (becuase often it will have other plant 'gook' mixed in.). They can be very
challenging, but very rewarding. Plus you could then even sell these compounds to someone you know that makes soaps or something like that.
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
Good idea, I have only ever done the extraction of limonene via steam distillation and (mainly) trans-cinnamaldehyde via simple solvent dissolving.
I have but one gripe - I have no sep funnel!
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
zoombafu
Hazard to Others
Posts: 255
Registered: 21-11-2011
Location: U.S.
Member Is Offline
Mood: sciencey
|
|
A sep funnel isn't 'necessary', it just makes things a lot easier. You can often just swirl in a beaker and then decant. Or you can make a sep
funnel by gluing two normal funnels together (never tried this so I can't say how well it works.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
