| Pages:
1
2 |
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
Aluminium Trichloride
Yes, I know that there have been many threads on this sort of thing but can never seem to work out one thing; is aluminium trichloride a solid or
liquid at RTP? Wikipedia says its a solid, but what's all this about preparing anhydrous AlCl3 with a condenser?
|
|
|
kavu
Hazard to Others
Posts: 207
Registered: 11-9-2011
Location: Scandinavia
Member Is Offline
Mood: To understand is to synthesize
|
|
Aluminium trichloride is a pale yellow solid at room temperature. Synthesis temperatures are usually so high that AlCl3 melts, hence the condenser.
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
Aluminium Trichloride
Ah, I see. I assume this is why people want to prepare the anhydrous form;
Melting Point Data for Aluminium Trichloride
192.4 °C *(anhydrous)
0 °C (hexahydrate)
But what's wrong with reacting HCl with Al foil, evaporating a little and then transferring into a dessicator for drying and possibly storage?
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8027
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
Pure aluminium trichloride is a white solid. The yellow color is due to impurities. The hexahydrate is a colorless solid.
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
That's what I thought. I read somewhere that the yellow colour comes from iron trichloride contamination.
Also, Woelen, how do I have my statement/bio come up on all my posts?
|
|
|
kavu
Hazard to Others
Posts: 207
Registered: 11-9-2011
Location: Scandinavia
Member Is Offline
Mood: To understand is to synthesize
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Hexavalent  | | But what's wrong with reacting HCl with Al foil, evaporating a little and then transferring into a dessicator for drying and possibly storage?
|
Problem is that aluminium trichloride is a strong Lewis acid. Aqueous solution of aluminium chloride contains coordinated species, such as
[Al(H2O)6]3+. Heating will lead to decomposition and formation of HCl, Al(OH)3 and H2O. Anhydrous aluminium chloride can not be obtained from aqueous
solutions.
|
|
|
peach
Bon Vivant
Posts: 1428
Registered: 14-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
There are indeed many threads.
And you have clearly not read them, at all. Made only more annoying by the fact you've referenced your knowledge of them and then opened another
thread.
For instance;
| Quote: | | But what's wrong with reacting HCl with Al foil, evaporating a little and then transferring into a dessicator for drying and possibly storage?
|
I answered that precise question, in detail, in one of those threads.
Which was it's self, a repeat of the same question.
That wiki article needs editing to include; "You cannot make anhydrous AlCl3 by boiling it down".
{edit} Hang on, it does!
| Quote: | | Hydrated aluminium trichloride is prepared by dissolving aluminium oxides in hydrochloric acid. Heating this solid does not produce anhydrous
aluminium trichloride, the hexahydrate decomposes to aluminium oxide when heated to 300 °C |
And that;
| Quote: | | Aluminium chloride is manufactured on a large scale by the exothermic reaction of aluminium metal with chlorine or hydrogen chloride at temperatures
between 650 to 750 °C |
If you'd paid a moments interest to the other many threads mentioning the fact that it is a gas when produced this way, you'd know why it needs some
form of condensing surface.
Merge or delete.
[Edited on 31-12-2011 by peach]
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
The thing is, so many people say so many different things that its difficult to keep track of what's going on with different procedures. I am
relatively new to these forums (but not to chemistry) and am unsure of how to merge threads. Help?
(Additionally, I find it totally unnecessary to word your response in an almost offensive fashion.)
|
|
|
peach
Bon Vivant
Posts: 1428
Registered: 14-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | | I am relatively new to these forums (but not to chemistry) |
Undergraduates at university (18-21 year olds) will have used AlCl3 and noted the fact that it's a solid at room temperature. I've not done chemistry
at university, and I realize it's a solid at room temperature, and know the answers to those questions you've repeated. So you can't be all that
experienced to be lagging so far behind a theory noobster like myself, who's education in chemistry beyond A-Level comes purely from this forum,
google and my own practical work at home.
Go to SIGMAALDRICH.COM
Type "AlCl3" into the search box.
What units are the packs sold in? And what's the description?
That's how hard it was.
| Quote: | | I find it totally unnecessary to word your response in an almost offensive fashion |
It is an offensive, against sheer laziness.
[Edited on 31-12-2011 by peach]
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
My sheer laziness? You have not actually answered my question in hand . . how to merge or delete posts. I am new to this forum and as home science
enthusiasts we should be helping and encouraging each other, as opposed to being rude and discouraging others.
|
|
|
peach
Bon Vivant
Posts: 1428
Registered: 14-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You can't merge threads, the moderators do it when people keep opening threads that are identical to one another.
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
Thankyou, that was the only answer I wanted and was needed.
|
|
|
Panache
International Hazard
Posts: 1290
Registered: 18-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Instead of being my deliverance, she had a resemblance to a Kat named Frankenstein
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Hexavalent | The thing is, so many people say so many different things that its difficult to keep track of what's going on with different procedures. I am
relatively new to these forums (but not to chemistry) and am unsure of how to merge threads. Help?
(Additionally, I find it totally unnecessary to word your response in an almost offensive fashion.) |
And what makes you think by opening up another thread you will not simply receive the same 'many' people saying the same 'many' different things.
The reality is most likely that you were simply too lazy to sift through the readily available information to glean what you needed and hoped that by
asking, someone would do this for you.
Except you were not honest, you would have received better reception had you said, 'hey i'm lazy can you spend time answering my question so i can
spend more time punking around with my cooljam'.
Instead when confronted about your drivel you retreat to the time honoured tradition of takers, that being, attempting to invoke sympathy via the
'poor me' approach.
Ffs get a job at reception somewhere and put all this out of your head or get some intiative.
No offense intended to anyone working in reception.
|
|
|
Neil
National Hazard
Posts: 556
Registered: 19-3-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Well said Panache.
In any good thread the writers have likely taken hours out of their days on several occasions to fact check and add comprehensible usefull data. Peach
and his posts. Hours? I have a feeling it takes him tens of hours to condense his picture sessions and likely hours more to do the write ups. This is
ignoring the dozens of hours of reaserch that he would have done to have his little photo session and the dozens of hours to set up everything and
verify it won't kill him. Really SM is just lucky that he has not realized that he could make more money and have more fun taking pictures of
appreciative naked ladies.
Ever climbed a mountain? Home chemistry is a mountain. We all struggle to find what we can, asking to be spoon fed is like jumping on a sherpa(yes
Peach, you are now a sherpa) and prodding him with your heels while pointing up the mountain and saying "giddy up"
Besides the disrespect of having onces previouse work being dis-regarded there is a safety aspect. No one here wants to inadvertantly contribute to
someones injury or injury of others via that individuals ignorance. Anyone who can not read up on a couple of freelygiven pages of know-how/what can
not be trusted to go out and gather all relivant safety data before mixing thing. Any such mishaps reflect very harshly on the whole of home science
and can bring about further restriction. I wouldn't get pissed at Peach, I would just do more leg work next time and as Panache said, own your
mistakes and intentions.
Almost every forum member here did the same thing as you when they started on the forum - they ether learned and are still here or they got upset and
left. Those that stayed are often brilliant in there own way and are accepted.
[Edited on 3-1-2012 by Neil] Edit: miss hit end while still writing
[Edited on 3-1-2012 by Neil]
|
|
|
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
how to make aluminum trichloride
I had an idea for making anhydrous aluminum chloride. Place a piece of aluminum foil into ethyl ether. Then bubble in chlorine gas that has been
passed through loose calcium chloride to remove any traces of moisture. The chlorine gas should react with the aluminum (without needing to be
heated), and the resulting aluminum trichloride will dissolve into the ethyl ether. "Solutions of Aluminum Chloride in Ethers", Gordon G. Evans,
Thomas R. P. Gibb Jr., J. Kevin Kennedy, Frank P. Del Greco
A similar procedure is already used for making anhydrous zinc chloride.
|
|
|
peach
Bon Vivant
Posts: 1428
Registered: 14-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I tried that with dichloromethane and hydrogen chloride.
I was not able to check the results well enough and it could have benefited from better drying (e.g. drying the DCM over calcium hydride). However,
the solid material I did recover was fuming to some extent.
I recall suggestions of activating the aluminum with iodine or mercury chloride. I may give it another try, this time with one of those present.
Within the masses of information already posted there have also been mentions of drying it by co-distillation.
The solvent method would be particularly nice if it can be made to function as it would be easy to generate it in place - within the flask where it
needs to be - avoiding the need for special distillations, extremely hot tube reactions, recollecting the solid and then transferring it through the
air, where it'll start reacting again en route.
However, as with many theorized methods, I do agree with Len and the others that less talk and more action is required. So won't speculate any further
on it until it's actually been run again in front of me.
|
|
|
neptunium
National Hazard
Posts: 990
Registered: 12-12-2011
Location: between Uranium and Plutonium
Member Is Offline
|
|
i was going to bubble dry chlorine gas in carbon tetrachloride with aluminum powder (500mesh) suspended and stirred constantly....i have yet to make
CCl4 from chloroform and chlorine....
|
|
|
entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fissile
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland | | I had an idea for making anhydrous aluminum chloride. Place a piece of aluminum foil into ethyl ether. Then bubble in chlorine gas that has been
passed through loose calcium chloride to remove any traces of moisture. |
My recollection is that ethyl ether
is not inert to chlorine. I vaguely recall something about explosive products being produced.
|
|
|
neptunium
National Hazard
Posts: 990
Registered: 12-12-2011
Location: between Uranium and Plutonium
Member Is Offline
|
|
sounds like a set up! run!!!!!
|
|
|
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by neptunium | | i was going to bubble dry chlorine gas in carbon tetrachloride with aluminum powder (500mesh) suspended and stirred constantly....i have yet to make
CCl4 from chloroform and chlorine.... |
The aluminum chloride would have to be soluble in CCl4, which I am not sure that it is, otherwise the reaction would not be able to proceed.
Chlorine gas does not react with ethyl ether, at least not in the dark. But it is probably not a good idea to leave ethyl ether in contact with
chlorine for more than an hour, as chlorinated products will tend to form.
Ethyl hypochlorite, however, can be formed by passing chlorine into a solution of water, ethyl alcohol, a limited quantity of sodium hydroxide. Methyl
hypochlorite is a dangerously sensitive explosive.
Journal of the Chemical Society, Volume 50, p607
Ethyl hypochlorite reacts with sulfur dioxide to form ethyl chlorosulfonate, CH3-CH2-O-SO2Cl, which is similar to ethyl sulfate in reactivity,
although I am not sure if it is as hazardously toxic.
[Edited on 4-1-2012 by AndersHoveland]
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5128
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Mixtures of Al with CCl4 can be detonated.
|
|
|
neptunium
National Hazard
Posts: 990
Registered: 12-12-2011
Location: between Uranium and Plutonium
Member Is Offline
|
|
glad i didnt try it then...i`ll pass Cl2 onto Al in a glass chamber then!
|
|
|
Neil
National Hazard
Posts: 556
Registered: 19-3-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You might want to read the mentioned threads first.
|
|
|
neptunium
National Hazard
Posts: 990
Registered: 12-12-2011
Location: between Uranium and Plutonium
Member Is Offline
|
|
yup
[Edited on 5-1-2012 by neptunium]
|
|
|
peach
Bon Vivant
Posts: 1428
Registered: 14-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You forgot to warm it up?
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
