| Pages:
1
2 |
DDTea
National Hazard
Posts: 940
Registered: 25-2-2003
Location: Freedomland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Degenerate
|
|
Introduction to "Novichok" Agents
While doing some research on the internet concerning Novichok agents, I came across an unusually informative review on Amazon.com for the Handbook
of Chemical and Biological Warfare Agents. Being rather impressed by the liberal use of references and detailed information, including some
formulas, I took it upon myself to edit the review (rephrased some things; basically put it in better English, since it was written by a Russian) and
took the time to draw the formulas in MS Paint. I will not bother linking to the review itself, but will instead include my "improved"
version, in MS Word form. It serves as a useful introduction to the "Novichok" series of Nerve Agents, and includes useful references (I
suspect most are written in Russian..). I don't know if this is any new information to you, but it was new to me 
Attachment: Novichoks, Dusty Agents, GV and GP agents.doc (38kB)
This file has been downloaded 7841 times
|
|
|
DDTea
National Hazard
Posts: 940
Registered: 25-2-2003
Location: Freedomland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Degenerate
|
|
Just from looking at the structure of these agents, my guess to precursors are Phosphorus Oxychloride, Phosgene Oxime, some Fluorinating agent, and
maybe Ethylene Chlorohydrin (looking at the second Novichok structure). The only other question is how to get the third group attached to the central
Phosphorus-- the C-CC-X .
My guess is the synthesis would look something like this...I'm just throwing out ideas now to get discussion
HON=C(Cl2) + F --> HON=C(Cl)F + Cl
O=PCl3 + HON=C(Cl)F --> O=PCl2(-ON=C(Cl)F ) + HCl
O=PCl2(-ON=C(Cl)F) + HO-C2-Cl --> O=PCl(-ON=C(Cl)F)(-O-C2-Cl) + HCl
I'm thinking along the lines of the simple Tabun synthesis using Phosphorus Oxychloride, where the various groups are simply attached as shown
above, with HCl or NaCl being the usual side-products. Following this logic, this could perhaps be a "simple" Novichok agent whose
synthesis should not be much more complex than any G-Agent's:
O=P(-O-CC-Cl)(-O-N=C(Cl)(F))F
Another aspect of Novichoks worth noting are the unsaturated and halogenated side-chains. Perhaps this could explain their special toxicity, because
they allow for multiple leaving-groups. However, I don't believe the Dihaloformaldoxime group is an active group--but rather a
"stabilizing" group (I just made that term up, but it gets the point across).
One thing that is often brought up about treatment of Nerve Agent poisoning with Oximes-- the threat of forming highly toxic Phosphorylated Oximes.
So to me, it looks like the Novichok agents play on this, but at the same time prevent Oxime treatment (as there is already an Oxime group attached).
What I am wondering is why two different halogens are used on the Dihaloformaldoxime group. Do you think that they are trying to take advantage of
the difference in reactivities of the halogens, whereas if there is a F along side the Cl, the Cl may more readily react?
|
|
|
DDTea
National Hazard
Posts: 940
Registered: 25-2-2003
Location: Freedomland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Degenerate
|
|
Well, i've found some data related to toxicity-- just estimates and assumptions and some, you will seem, are a bit off.
| Quote: |
"Novichok 5 estimated to exceed effectiveness of VX by 5 to 8 times. Novichok 7 estimated to exceed effectiveness of soman by 10 times.
"
"Very rapid [action]"
"[symptoms] Assumed to be similar to the effects of other nerve agents listed above "
"Assumed to be similar to treatment methods for other nerve agents listed above"
|
The part that i can safely say is false is the treatment... Oxime treatments do not work against Novichok poisoning. As for Atropine, I don't
know.
I'm assuming the structures listed by the Amazon.com reviewer are Novichoks 5 and 7... simply because information on Novichok is so limited. As
such, I am assuming he used the structures of the Novichoks most well known-- and so did
http://www.stimson.org/cbw/?sn=CB2001121893#5. where I found the above information.
|
|
|
fritz
Harmless
Posts: 49
Registered: 29-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Oh, nice!
This is intresting! The first time I got something special like a formula about novichok agents!
I did so many searches about novitchok agents already but my results were not very promising. some years ago I had an intresting report about secret
russian CW-agents researchs but unfortunatelly I lost it!
So I´ll try to resume my search results about and will post it here ASAP!
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hasn't there been somekind of incident with a lab where these agents were being researched?
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
DDTea
National Hazard
Posts: 940
Registered: 25-2-2003
Location: Freedomland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Degenerate
|
|
It wouldn't surprise me with the numbers of accidents the USSR has had-- Chernobyl, that Anthrax release, etc. I haven't heard of a nerve
agent release, however...but if it did occur, the Russians would most likely cover it up. They were very secretive about their military, and they
still are; and this makes it all the more difficult to get meaningful information about Novichok agents.
I am wondering, however: are there any Russian-speaking members on this forum, who would not mind doing a bit of translating of some of the books
mentioned in the above Word file? Or, maybe give a list of useful words in Russian related to Novichok research...i.e.: the Cyrillic spelling for
Novichok itself ( i believe it would be pronounced 'No-wee-shock' , to at
least allow us to do Google Searches? From there, we can easily Babelfish any Russian results.
|
|
|
fritz
Harmless
Posts: 49
Registered: 29-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
O.k. this is the result of my researches on novichok/foliant. I also looked up some of the informations given in Samosa´s paper.
You may regard this as a first output of information being far from complete. I I will get more intresting informations on this subjects I will
publish it here. And, yes Vulture there was an accident with this substances it is mentioned in one of the resources I used (I listed them in my word
document)
Attachment: INFORMATION.doc (61kB)
This file has been downloaded 8447 times
|
|
|
DDTea
National Hazard
Posts: 940
Registered: 25-2-2003
Location: Freedomland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Degenerate
|
|
I guess that is what we call good research . I am wondering--were most of your
sources in English, or were much of them in German or Russian? I am having a hard time finding much in English, but if you feel like using it, the
Russian word for "Novichok" is " Hoвичoк ," courtesy of my Russian friend . It is a rather common word, meaning "Rookie" or "New-Guy" , so
you may get a lot of junk results. I guess I'll have to ask for some "qualifying" words from her next time I see her.
Now, on to the information. The big area of interest here seems to be about Phosphorylated Alkanoyl Chloride Oximes, from Zhurnal Obshchei
Khimii. The Trialkyl Phosphate should be relatively easy to prepare, as it is seen in the syntheses of many nerve agents:
PCl3 + ROH --(CCl4)--> P(OR3) + RCl + HCl
As for the second reactant, X-C(R1)2-NO2, What if the two R1 groups were substituted with Cl and F, respectively? Alternately, if they were ALL
substituted with Cl, then it becomes a very familiar compound--Chloropicrin. The question then is whether or not this would react in the same way.
If so, then the reaction to produce a very dangerous Nerve Agent looks to be unbelievably simple:
PCl3 + ROH --(CCl4)--> P(OR)3
P(OR)3 + CCl3NO2 --(CCl4)--> PO4R2(N=CCl2)
The product would then be distilled out.
[Edited on 3-27-04 by Samosa]
|
|
|
fritz
Harmless
Posts: 49
Registered: 29-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
All of my sources were in english. And I was able to read the russian journal because there is an english form . unfortunatelly I´m not able to read russian so i also will have no use for russian information.
To your reaction-suggestions: Yes this synthesis looks very easy! The most complicated step seems to me the synthesis of Cl2FCNO2 or ClFC=NO. The
reaction with chloropicrin is mentioned in the J.A.C.S.-article. But it doesn´t seem to be a good way to the novichok-compounds because the reaction
is said to be very violent at -40°C  producing smoke and flames!
|
|
|
PainKilla
Hazard to Others
Posts: 306
Registered: 29-4-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
MY first post at this forum heh. I speak russian so I shall look into this if people want. Samosa/his friend is right on the meaning of Novichok.
I'll try doing a search on some search engines (russian) and see if I can get any information...
|
|
|
fritz
Harmless
Posts: 49
Registered: 29-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Oh, that´s nice and may be very useful!
May I ask if you have already some informations about this class of chemicals?I have to admit that I´m a bit confused by the informations I have. It
is said that the manufacture of these compounds should be very easy. But the chemistry-journals I looked up couldn´t confirm this! In fact the
synthesis looks very difficult and uses some very strange compounds (e.g. Cl2FCNO2)
|
|
|
PainKilla
Hazard to Others
Posts: 306
Registered: 29-4-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Well as you are I am sort of lost :/. Looking through various forums and articles I have gotten mixed results ranging from synthesis from simple and
readily avalible substances like fertilizers and other things. But I have also
read that it requires special equipment and it's not something as easy as that. Most sites however list them as being made from fertilizers
(hence the secrecy since it's easy to hide production if it's made so simply) Some sites say soldiers carry the 2nd product with them and
add alcohol.  Not good for soldiers heh... I am still trying to see if the
scientist who revealed this added any information through the years (Vil Mirzayanov)
|
|
|
DDTea
National Hazard
Posts: 940
Registered: 25-2-2003
Location: Freedomland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Degenerate
|
|
Looking at more Amazon.com reviews, I came across our old friend Anatoly Kuntsevich...
| Quote: | More details would be fine, November 16, 2003
Reviewer: Anatoly Kuntsevich from Moscow, Russia
Although this book does not reveal the precise chemical formulas for the Novichok class of nerve agents it introduces into the hidden world of russian
chem-bio weapon designers. The intelligence still fears to make public that Novichoks belong to organophosporus compounds containing the double
halogenated oxime like -O-N=C(F)Cl group and that beside P.P.Kirpichev also I.V.Martnov and Yu.A.Kruglak from GosNIOKhT developed the principle of
these extremely toxic OP oximes during the mid 60's already (and published also) which resist reactivation by other oximes. These
chemicals an be made by heating only of substituted 1,3,2-dioxaphospholanes indicated slighly in this book . Hopefully int'l
organizations will make public more details for the protection of other citizens than just army soldiers soon. |
My understanding of the nomenclature of OPs isn't so great, so could someone explain what 1,3,2-dioxapospholanes would look like?
Do a quick google search on Anatoly Kuntsevich... He is quite an interesting character. He is a former General and is the head of the Committee for
Problems of the Chemical and Biological Weapons Convention. Beyond that, he was Boris Yeltsin's personal adviser on Chemical Weapons and was
later assigned to abolishing Russia's Chemical and Biological Weapons program. I'm sure there is much to be learned from him; maybe if we
could find an e-mail address or something (since he seems to frequen Amazon.com...), we could find something neat
|
|
|
souran
Unregistered
Posts: N/A
Registered: N/A
Member Is Offline
|
|
I'm sorry, I'm russian and I will speak russian.
Дело в том, что отзыв,
написаный Кунцевичем
недоставерен. Анатолий
Кунцевич умер в 2002 г. Что
касается Новичков, то
очень сомнительно, чтобы
ацетонитрил мог
участвовать в синтезе
фосфорилированных
оксимов. Если интересно,
пишите.
|
|
|
souran
Unregistered
Posts: N/A
Registered: N/A
Member Is Offline
|
|
1,2,3-Диоксофосфоланы, это
пятичленное кольцо, в
котором атомы кислорода
находятся в положении 1,3.
Фосор в положении 2.
Нуклеофильнок
езамещение в
ацетонитриле идет по
атому углерода.
Образуется вероятно
иминоэфир. Если исходный
ОР-compound содержит связь Р-Cl, то
реакция идет по атому N.
Образуется
имидофосфорильное
соединение.
|
|
|
FritzHaber
Harmless
Posts: 16
Registered: 14-5-2004
Location: europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by souran
1,2,3-Диоксофосфоланы, это
пятичленное кольцо, в
котором атомы кислорода
находятся в положении 1,3.
Фосор в положении 2.
Нуклеофильнок
езамещение в
ацетонитриле идет по
атому углерода.
Образуется вероятно
иминоэфир. Если исходный
ОР-compound содержит связь Р-Cl, то
реакция идет по атому N.
Образуется
имидофосфорильное
соединение. |
gee...my russian isn't
perfect, but as far as my poor cyrilic reaches, I can see, this one says like 1,2,3-dioxophospholanes are...
"heterocyclopentane (five-membered ring) derivatives, namelly those, having C1 and C3 substitued by an O atome, the C2 beeing substitued by a
P(3+) atome, ...O-P(X)-O..
X is a (pseudo)halogene."
these are the cyclic phosphonic compounds, reacting with flurodichloronitrosomethane to yield Novichoks.
|
|
|
DDTea
National Hazard
Posts: 940
Registered: 25-2-2003
Location: Freedomland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Degenerate
|
|
As it turns out, fritz (not to be confused with FritzHaber) had this information in the little word file he uploaded... I suggest downloading it if
you have not already--it mentions quite a few useful reactions. By the way, this forum has some rules about speaking in English, if I recall
correctly... If you don't speak it well, I suggest using http://babelfish.altavista.com/ -- they have a Russian to English translator .
[Edited on 5-17-04 by Samosa]
|
|
|
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
|
|
Rules about writing in English? I don't recall any such rules. The only problem is that most of the membership here will no longer understand you
if you do not write in English, since our membership is so widely scattered.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
|
|
|
souran
Unregistered
Posts: N/A
Registered: N/A
Member Is Offline
|
|
I’m sorry for my awful English, but it's my first latter in foreign language.
It’s known, that one of the precursors OF Novichok agents is acetonitrile. How it may react with OP-precursors? Common pesticide precursors
contain P-SH, P-OH, P-Hal bonds.
For instance: COP(=O)(OC)S; COP(=O)(OC)Cl
I suggest that in the first case imidoilphosphate created, in the second: alkilidenamydophoshate created.
Additionaly, Anatoly Kuntsevich died in 2002. The review is written in 2003. This review can contain false information. Most likely that someone wrote
this review under pseudonym Anatoly Kuntsevich. I distrust that exactly syntheses of Novichok compounds are described in journal articles. Most likely
that these are related compounds. All articles of journal dated 1967-1972. Supertoxic compound, “Substance А-230” created between
1985 and 1991. The “Substance А-230” tested in only unitary form. For binary weapon a “Substance А-232”, similar
to “Substance А-230” was created. Exactly in synthesis of “Substance A-232” and (maybe) “Substance A-234”
acetonitrile may be used. I certain, that US military have already created Novichok compounds and described their properties. It may be useful to
search RTECS database for Novichoks and related compounds.
|
|
|
fritz
Harmless
Posts: 49
Registered: 29-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
whoops I must have competely overlooked this intresting converstion!
First of all i want to tell you I am preparing a new, revised information-paper about the novichok-stuff. Unfortunatelly I have too much other work
to do so you have to wait a few days (I hope not weeks!)
I agree with souran, if Mr Kutsevich was a former general I doubt he would publicate informations about classified weapons under his own name
(especially if he is dead since two years )
So I also think that care should be taken with his informations. All I read about the class of substances he described stands in opposite to the other
informations I have from more or less official sources. But it may also be he HAS in fact some true informations and uses the pseudonym Kuntsevich as
some kind of tip to his knowledge.
I have read about MeCN as a precursor but also I have no clue about how this may fit in a organophosphoros structure. Alcohols are mentioned too for
the binary compounds but I guess these may react similiar as in the binary GB/VX mixtures.
I consider the suggestion of searching the RTECS-database about these compounds as a good idea! Lets look what could be found there!
|
|
|
FritzHaber
Harmless
Posts: 16
Registered: 14-5-2004
Location: europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
well...presuming, that acetonitrile is a precursor, not solvent, I had this idea last night:
(R-)(X<sub>1</sub>-)P=O(-X<sub>2</sub> +
H<sub>3</sub>C-CN ---> (R-)(X<sub>1</sub>-)P=O(-N=C[-X<sub>2</sub>]-CH<sub>3</sub>,
where X1 = fluorine, cyanide, alkoxy, etc. radical, and X2 = chlorine, bromine, amino etc. radical, the bond P-X1 beeing more stable than that P-X2 or
even P-N=C(X2)-CH3.
this would yield certainly interresting AChE-inhibitors...
further, I would consider this type of organophosphates to be much likely potent CW agents:
1)
(R,R'N-CH<sub>2</sub>-CH<sub>2</sub>-)(F-)P=O(-N=C(F)-CF<sub>3</sub>
2)
(R,R'N-CH<sub>2</sub>-CH<sub>2</sub>-)(F-)P=O(-O-N=C(F)-CF<sub>3</sub>
anyway, someone should contact some russian military chemist and buy the detailled formula for some $1.000
|
|
|
fritz
Harmless
Posts: 49
Registered: 29-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Yes this may be a great idea! But if all the secrets are revealed we will loose an intresting topic to discuss about. How boring! Hm, but on the other
hand...
Nice first name Mr. Haber! And of course a very intresting person you got this
pseudonym off!
I thought of a similiar way for the use of MeCN before I got the original literature. I thought of using it for creating the oxime function suggested
in samosa´s paper. But I came to no solution of the problem because I don´t know how to get the oxygen between N and P.
|
|
|
souran
Unregistered
Posts: N/A
Registered: N/A
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by FritzHaber
well...presuming, that acetonitrile is a precursor, not solvent, I had this idea last night:
(R-)(X<sub>1</sub>-)P=O(-X<sub>2</sub> +
H<sub>3</sub>C-CN ---> (R-)(X<sub>1</sub>-)P=O(-N=C[-X<sub>2</sub>]-CH<sub>3</sub>,
where X1 = fluorine, cyanide, alkoxy, etc. radical, and X2 = chlorine, bromine, amino etc. radical, the bond P-X1 beeing more stable than that P-X2 or
even P-N=C(X2)-CH3.
this would yield certainly interresting AChE-inhibitors...
further, I would consider this type of organophosphates to be much likely potent CW agents:
1)
(R,R'N-CH<sub>2</sub>-CH<sub>2</sub>-)(F-)P=O(-N=C(F)-CF<sub>3</sub>
2)
(R,R'N-CH<sub>2</sub>-CH<sub>2</sub>-)(F-)P=O(-O-N=C(F)-CF<sub>3</sub>
anyway, someone should contact some russian military chemist and buy the detailled formula for some $1.000 |
To buy a state secret for 1000$ is daring idea. I am afraid to disillusion you but corrupt military chemists are so greedy for the most part. 1000$ is
not quite sufficient. Moreover, I suppose the secret is sold already.
I mostly agree with Mr. FritzHaber, but if X2 = -OH, SH, amino I guess the reaction would look like this:
(CH3O)2P=O(SH) + MeCN --> (CH3O)2P=O(-S-C(CH3)=NH)
If X2 = Hal reaction would look like:
(CH3O)2P=O(Hal) + MeCN --> (CH3O)2P=O(-N=C(CH3)(Hal))
The product of first reaction is related to compound (CH3O)2P=O(-S-C(CH(CH3)2)=NH-CH3) which is highly toxic (http://wcb.ucr.edu/wcb/schools/CNAS/entm/tmiller/1/modules/p...)
Here are more examples of highly toxic related compounds(in ChemSketch smiles):
COP(=O)(OC)\N=C1/SC(CO1)C
CCOP(=O)(OCC)\N=C1/SCCS1 (Phospholane)
Clc1ccc(cc1)OP(=O)(Oc2ccc(cc2)Cl)\N=C\C (Phosacetim)
It is known two-step reaction of cholinesterase reactivation:
1. (R1-)(R2-)P=O(OR) + R3-CH=N-OH --> (R1-)(R2-)P=O(-O-N=CH-R3) + R-OH
2. (R1-)(R2-)P=O(-O-N=CH-R3) --> (R1-)(R2-)P=O(-OH) + R3-CN
May MeCN react with P-OH containing compounds?
[Edited on 28-5-2004 by souran]
|
|
|
souran
Unregistered
Posts: N/A
Registered: N/A
Member Is Offline
|
|
Is anybody here in this topic?
-------------------------------------------
Do NOT DEMAND answers please. People may or may not reply to your reply, usually it takes some time. The forum is not a
chatbox.
[Edited on 25-6-2004 by vulture]
|
|
|
Reverend Necroticus Rex
Hazard to Others
Posts: 196
Registered: 15-6-2004
Location: Right behind you.......
Member Is Offline
Mood: Poisonous
|
|
I just searched on novichok agents, came up with this:
http://66.102.11.104/search?q=cache:v9FPKVzfKaAJ:www.cisworldservices.org/publications/CSM_FALL2002.pdf+novichok+agents&hl=en
Refers to "aconitrile", most likely, given the tone of the previous messages to be acetonitrile, mixed with the ubiquitous "common
pesticide" in what is hinted to be something like a one-step procedure.
Could lead to a one pot synthesis of one of the nocichok agents maybe
Edit: found this, could someone maybe link to the references if they have access to the full article?
http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/app/home/contribution....
[Edited on 8-9-2004 by Reverend Necroticus Rex]
The sun is shining on a brand new day
Blackened corpses burn where they were slain
Self-flagellation prompts him to confess, Bless me father, for I made this mess.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
