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freedompyro
holmes1880
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MHN Soluability
Anyone know what MHN is soluble in besides Acetone? Perhaps ethanol or methanol heated to 60C might also do?
70C is probably the limit on what you would want to heat that stuff to during recrystallization. Beyond that I have read it gets more sensitive than
NG.
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quicksilver
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What are the various sources you have looked through & what were the results thus far?
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freedompyro
holmes1880
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Well... Everyone I have talked to is using Acetone recrystallization via evaporation.
I just looked through COPAE again and it specifies that it is only soluble in "boiling" alcohol.  That explains a lot... However, rumor going around is that hot acetone recrystallization yields the highest
sensitivity crystals possible that can nearly DDT from a fuse... I can't see how hot ethanol vs hot acetone would yield different sensitivity
crystals... Hmmm
Never synthesized it myself yet. A year ago I discovered a way to get ETN recrystallized at upto 59C to DDT from a fuse with confinement. MHN might
provide a more reliable primary alternative.
[Edited on 23-6-2011 by freedompyro]
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quicksilver
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Neither are primaries however. Whether a material will under go a DDT is a multi-faceted phenomenon which, frankly, cannot be relied upon. In a
sensitive secondary, energy must be transmitted in some form that provides shock initiation. This is why a common design EBW cap uses a high (Joule)
energy level to "snap" that bridge-wire. To observe the bridge-wire itself receive that amount of energy, you may even hear a slight pop just from
that wire alone.
Flame initiation is actually a slow format. The transmission of energy w/ flame must take advantage of surrounding physical elements to reach a
threshold of energy dump. That why the heated test-tube exploded. The surrounding areas of glass, the air within, & the principal (secondary)
itself all came together to form an avalanche of surrounding heat.
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The WiZard is In
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Quote: Originally posted by freedompyro  | Anyone know what MHN is soluble in besides Acetone? Perhaps ethanol or methanol heated to 60C might also do?
70C is probably the limit on what you would want to heat that stuff to during recrystallization. Beyond that I have read it gets more sensitive than
NG. |
  
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holmes1880
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@silver
Simply put, the fuse isn't hot enough to rapidly create DDT reaction in ETN or MHN- with reliability, that is. One k3wl on YT was using sparkler with
MHN wrapped in Al foil. Very k3wl, but demonstrates the principle.
I am 90% positive a magnesium strip used as a fuse will cause DDT in pressed MHN with a high degree of reliability. Ideally you'd want to have it in
the center of the mix, but it can be on the side of the pressed mix, to make pressing easier. This may work with ETN too, but unlikely to be as
reliable. Another important detail to note is the density of your base mix- it cannot be loose. If the powder is too loose it will melt faster
creating more air space within, reducing confinement, which can result in burning, i.e. not what you want.
You don't need an extra sensitive MHN or ETN using magnesium strips.
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freedompyro
holmes1880
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| Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880 | @silver
Simply put, the fuse isn't hot enough to rapidly create DDT reaction in ETN or MHN- with reliability, that is. One k3wl on YT was using sparkler with
MHN wrapped in Al foil. Very k3wl, but demonstrates the principle.
I am 90% positive a magnesium strip used as a fuse will cause DDT in pressed MHN with a high degree of reliability. Ideally you'd want to have it in
the center of the mix, but it can be on the side of the pressed mix, to make pressing easier. This may work with ETN too, but unlikely to be as
reliable. Another important detail to note is the density of your base mix- it cannot be loose. If the powder is too loose it will melt faster
creating more air space within, reducing confinement, which can result in burning, i.e. not what you want.
You don't need an extra sensitive MHN or ETN using magnesium strips. |
Depends... I use to use "American Visco" fuse to reliably DDT ETN every time. It of course requires VERY thick casing... And the fuse has to run
through half an inch of the loosely compressed ETN crystals... Which are then followed by half an inch cast ETN in front to insure proper
pressurization/power.
All this talk has got me to thinking about slow magnesium flash powder without heavy confinement...
[Edited on 23-6-2011 by freedompyro]
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holmes1880
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Well, your copper detonators were working on a different principle of DDT reaction. Instead of causing DDT in the immediate area of the contact of
fuse and powder, the powder ETN would burn, and being strongly confined, it would undergo detonation transition. I am talking about a DDT reaction
that causes dense ETN that is in contact with the fuse to undergo this process immediately, without much deflagration occurring.
About a week ago I did a test where I threw tiny ETN pieces on the stove, and when the stove was almost red, ETN detonated instead of the usual rapid
deflagration. This is what is desired in a DDT system. Immediate detonation due to rapid overheating. I believe magnesium ribbon can deliver that
without building up too much pressure.
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freedompyro
holmes1880
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| Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880 | Well, your copper detonators were working on a different principle of DDT reaction. Instead of causing DDT in the immediate area of the contact of
fuse and powder, the powder ETN would burn, and being strongly confined, it would undergo detonation transition. I am talking about a DDT reaction
that causes dense ETN that is in contact with the fuse to undergo this process immediately, without much deflagration occurring.
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95% of the time I would use 50mg of flash powder and only a quarter inch of fuse into the ETN. I can assure you there was little to no delay as the
flash was able to pressurize and superheat the inch of loosely compressed etn in milliseconds.
Not really sure there would be any improvement in switching to magnalium or magnesium flash...
What I need to test is placing a quarter gram of magnesium flash in the center of 2 grams of etn/mhn... It may DDT with the mere confinement of being
wrapped in a couple layers of tape...
Sigh... I don't have any E or M Sugar at the moment! 
[Edited on 23-6-2011 by freedompyro]
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holmes1880
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I encourage you to test magnesium ribbon because it is a sounder principal than expecting magnesium FP to thermally shock the mix every time. Ribbon
is widely available on ebay and other places.
I could be off, but there is a reason FP is not used for igniting thermite.
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freedompyro
holmes1880
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A little magnesium powder sprinkled around a fuse ignites thermite every time for me.  To make a hot magnesium burn you can do more along the lines of 20-40/70 Oxidizer/Mg.
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Rosco Bodine
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Cyanoguanidine, dicyandiamide, reportedly has excellent stabilizing effect upon nitromannite according to US2616920 Betaine may also work well but
no data is available.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=12623&...
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=195117&...
There are patents by Sylvester Large which would be of interest involving coprecipitation of nitromannite
with other nitrated materials which results in mixed crystals having improved DDT characteristics. Also nitromannite has been used in mixed
compositions with tetracene or DDNP. There are probably other similar mixtures which may have useful properties.
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holmes1880
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Mg powder for me took quite some time to ignite CuO/al thermite. In addition to that, because of fine particle size, it burns more violently. I tired
Mg on top of ETN like 8 months ago with remarkably failed results.
That's why I recommend mg ribbon through densely pressed powder. My 2 cents on this matter.
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quicksilver
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Our discussion posits a variety of variables. This is the difficulty; taking a leap of heat energy vs shock energy that would produce similar
results. Our sensitive secondary must conform to a specific physical composition (as would or experiment as a whole) to bring about CONSISTENT DDT.
While shock may provide a greater flexibility*
Primaries conform to a wonderful utilitarian usable wherein a single crystal may result in heat induced detonation. Several years back a member who
specialized in using very minute amounts of materials made an interesting presentation on what would result from (nearly) single crystal introduction
to hydrocarbon-fed flame. His materials were consistently primary. DDT's have enormous flexibility in scope of detonation. Fluids dropped upon a
heated metallic plate. The act of dropping the fluid induced a further variable. It appear (empirically) that slow transition to a heat with no drop
induced energy transfer was not consistent in result. Chlorate based energetics reach a self containment. Even when flame inducement appears to
violate this the increase in mass/ volume demonstrated a further variable. The same per / chlorate based composition showed greater variables
"Transitional" primaries (TACC & others) were assessed as being primaries, yet demanded enclosure. Commonly conditions for the study of the DDT
phenomenon make documentation of a single material difficult to define. One classic being Diazodinitrophenol, which often demands enclosure for flame
initiation However this is not frequently the case for shock based initiation.
On a secondary basis TNP, while displaying DDT explosions on occasions appears difficult to flame initiate. It is very wise to practice safety
procedures but all but the purest Picric Acid does not pop with impact (within a foil enclosure; steel to steel impact). It's DDT phenomenon is well
known in some very serious accidents, yet conditions must be met. Of the esters, NC also shows a proclivity for conditional agenda to achieve DDT. In
fat this was an old "quick & dirty" method of determining the purity of a TNP, as those w/ a high % of DNT will NOT pop when struck as a few mg
fold of foil against an anvil.
The enclosure of the capsule partially came about via this transitional study. A very wide ranging issue.
I was going to put up some links to Roscoe's and Wizard's materials on this very subject but couldn't find them.
* Theory of Combustion of Powder & Explosives - Aleksei M. Lipanov, editor 1996 (much of it Russian translation).
[Edited on 23-6-2011 by quicksilver]
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by freedompyro | Anyone know what MHN is soluble in besides Acetone? Perhaps ethanol or methanol heated to 60C might also do?
70C is probably the limit on what you would want to heat that stuff to during recrystallization. Beyond that I have read it gets more sensitive than
NG. |
Ye Old Thorpe 4th ed. 1940. P. 500-01
.... disolves in hot alcohol, ether, acetic acid, and acetone.
He also sights US Patent 1 878 652 of 1932.
PROCESS OF INITIAL DETONATING EXPLOSIVE MATTER AND FOR
THE MANUFACTURE OF DETONATING CAPS IN ACCORDANCE THEREWITH
Byda most references I have consulted borrow heavily from
Naoúm, the book has been reprinted. Wow a book I own,
albeit a reprint not available from Google.com/books !
Attachment: 1878652.pdf (150kB)
This file has been downloaded 773 times
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holmes1880
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@silver
Flexibility as in being less prone to failure given different parameters of the detonator? I guess, since you can throw a tiny stash of any primary in
a plastic straw and it will work. Heat induced detonation is extremely promising with all usable nitric esters(MHN, ETN, PETN) and I believe may even
go as far as cyclonite. Remember me asking about RDX deflagration point? Aha.....
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freedompyro
holmes1880
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Does anyone know if MHN has any reported reactions to common metals? Copper, Al, Magnesium, etc?
Have not seen anything on it anywhere...
In fact, I have only seen info on peroxides reacting to metals...
[Edited on 24-6-2011 by freedompyro]
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quicksilver
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| Quote: Originally posted by holmes1880 | @silver
Flexibility as in being less prone to failure given different parameters of the detonator? I guess, since you can throw a tiny stash of any primary in
a plastic straw and it will work. Heat induced detonation is extremely promising with all usable nitric esters(MHN, ETN, PETN) and I believe may even
go as far as cyclonite. Remember me asking about RDX deflagration point? Aha..... |
No actually heat is the least promising because it has attendant variables. If you read the post over, you'll see that it's shock that has the
greatest promise of consistency. in the widest selections of materials.
however.....an amine is different than an ester and it's not appropriate science to make a sweeping generalization in any area. But heat per se' has
attendant demands for initiation. This is actually another issue that can be learned from the "exploding test-tube" affair. If the same heat levels
were applied via a water bath we may not have seen the detonation. There were many issues that drove that heat application (in that example) which may
not have been there in a bath (as an example).
What's more a single focused heat source may function for a DDT or it may not; yet this depends on still other variables such as density level, form
design,defusment of heat, etc.
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holmes1880
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An extreme heat even in weak confinement can be as effective as a shock. By extreme heat I mean like a jump from 25C to 500C in 1 second and then to
1000C in 2 seconds. Even most stable secondaries may not tolerate, especially confined.
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Rosco Bodine
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As a practical matter it is unlikely that any heat gradient can be produced more suddenly more conveniently and simply than by the impact caused by a
primary explosive. The closest thing to the action of a primary would be an electrical discharge, and that scheme requires as an external component an
electrical source as well as the conductors and some nearly instantaneous means of switching. The shock of such stimuli peaks in microseconds where
potential energy is released as kinetic energy then transformed to heat at the event horizon for impact on the target material.
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holmes1880
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I will say that ETN or MHN cannot handle a 300C/second jump in temperature 99.9% of the time, when confined. Been verified. As far as convenience
goes, sure, it is most convenient to put a tiny amount of LA or any other primary and skip along without any worries. The price of that is a risk of
static or some minor mechanical accident. I don't want to get ahead of myself just yet, but RDX or HMX may not be immune either to these thermal
onslaughts. A solely RDX based initiator - you can afford to be careless.
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Rosco Bodine
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Using primary explosives correctly in an intelligently designed firing train
is not careless. I have said it before and I will say it again, the so called
"safety detonator" concept which is predicated on the idea of a primary explosive free firing train is to a very large extent and in a highly
qualified way a sales pitch for a solution in search of a problem to solve .....but it is a "problem" that actually isn't a problem. If the idea is
to make explosives idiot proof well good luck on that one.
[Edited on 24-6-2011 by Rosco Bodine]
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holmes1880
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How long have you been in denial, ever since you failed to come up with it yourself? Why do you think the first EBW inventors came up with the idea-
nobody likes to work with primaries. I remember clearly reading that they "thought it was a problem needed solving". Why are there NPED caps,
patents, etc?
It comes down to your nervous system. If you blast quite a little bit, then being alert all the time will take its toll. It's never a pleasant feeling
inserting the cap into the booster when it has a primary in it. It's not a comforting feeling. It's kinda like holding a loaded gun to your head- it
won't go off without reason, but still makes you anxious. You catch my drift?
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Rosco Bodine
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Fear sells. Look at the world we have and you will know that is true.
Do you think all the fears which can have a basis predicated on a really unlikely
event are well reasoned and valid or are many such fears basically bullshit paranoia?
With regards to primary explosives firearms ammunition is a good example.
How often does a cartridge of ammunition "fire itself" during any normal
storage or handling? Okay ...the same is true for a detonator of the original
compound variety having a primary and a base charge. They are remarkably reliable and well proven when handled properly. The idea of an NPED is
to sell something much more expensive to address exaggerated fears in
response to unlikely scenarios. It is exactly the kind of crap that gets
regulated into existence by people who really don't know what they are doing
and don't care what it costs. Such a philosophy is a lot more burden on
my digestion and my nervous system and has its collateral costs in the
unintended consequences that seem to always appear sooner or later.
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gregxy
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There are many differences in what is useful to the amateur and in the industry. A "thermal initiation" mechanism without a primary or strong
electrical input like EBW will require much more secondary since the DDT ramp up will be slower. If you are making thousands of caps you will want to
minimize the explosive content since it will reduce the cost and make them safer to store. In some applications detonation with millisecond timing is
needed. Finally the cap needs to perform reliably and predictably. There are already patents >50 years old on pyro type mixtures to replace the
primary. This is a well researched field, the best solutions are already being used.
As far as the amateur is concerned, there is still plenty of danger with secondaries. I seem to recall a member that lost his hand and eye making NG.
(I think he was fairly careful and experienced too). I don't see why ETN is any safer than NG.
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