darkflame89
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Copper carbonate
I trying to synthesize copper(II) carbonate..Any ideas as to how? The area around my house hardly as any good common chemicals i can use. I think the
govt. puts a tab on to these chemicals.
Anyway, i'm new
Ignis ubique latet, naturam amplectitur omnem.
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chemoleo
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Well well that's quite easy - possibly beginnings quest?.
Firstly you can buy cheap coppercarbonate from pottery supplies. See the Readily Available Chemicals site for details.
What precursors do you have?
If you have CuSO4 (the sulphate), then mix it with sodiumcarbonate (easy to get virtually anywhere) in stoichiometric amounts, i.e. CuSO4 + Na2CO3
--> Na2SO4 + CuCO3.
The CuCO3 will precipitate, filter it and wash with more water to get rid of the sulphate.
If you don't have CuSO4, check relevant threads in the forum, there are several dealing with it. I.e. by electrolysis, by chemical methods etc.
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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darkflame89
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Thx, i am now trying to boil down NaHCO3 to Na2CO3.
Anyway is there any good sites regrading the synthesis of chemicals? Cos, i dun really haave a lot of chemicals around here in Singapore. Maybe a few
drain cleaners(NaOH), plus some Baking Soda, vinegar,table salt( if you count it), and common metals to react with( copper, iron and such), ethanol,
potassium permangante..
I will try to lay my hands on every single useful chemicals, but there's a limit as i am a secondary student(high school student), therefore i
dun have a lot of money to spend buying chemicals from suppliers and such. And besides, as i am living in a flat(pretty confined), i also can;t do
anything that going to be give off dangerous fumes.
P.S Ammonia solution seems absent from the supermarkets
Ignis ubique latet, naturam amplectitur omnem.
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thunderfvck
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http://roguesci.org/megalomania/index.html
Megalomania has a lot of syntheses on his site. Good readings.
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Pyrovus
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You actually don't need to bother boiling down NaHCO3 to Na2CO3, as sodium bicarbonate will also react with copper sulphate with the bicarbonate
ion decomposing to carbonate:
2NaHCO3 + CuSO4 -> CuCO3(s) + Na2SO4 + H2O + CO2
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The_Davster
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Over this weekend I have almost perfected an all OTC method.
1. put clean scrap copper(about 1' of wire) in bleach(200ml)
2. GO OUTSIDE and add about 20-30 ml HCl-there will be chlorine gas made here also
3. After about a day there is a blue/green soultion, copper I and II chloride and hydroxide
4. Add this to 200ml more bleach
5.Wait overnight.
6. Add this solution to one of sodium carbonate/bicarbonate and filter
Unfortunatly the copper is not all converted to carbonate because either the hydroxide or chloride will not react with the carbonate and the filtrate
is still blue after filtering. But the reagents are cheap and all OTC.
BTW anyone know if Chlorine is a accumulative poison or if it just leaves your system shortly?
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Theoretic
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Simple chemicals mostly leave your system shortly, but they need not do this to be cumulative - e.g., nitrogen dioxide - leaves promptly - damage
stays! I don't think that's the case with chlorine though.
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hodges
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rogue chemist
Over this weekend I have almost perfected an all OTC method.
1. put clean scrap copper(about 1' of wire) in bleach(200ml)
2. GO OUTSIDE and add about 20-30 ml HCl-there will be chlorine gas made here also
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But once you acidify the bleach, it will change to chlorine and sodium chloride pretty quickly. I think you will get better results using 3% hydrogen
peroxide (also OTC). I dissolved a copper penny (pre-1982) in dilute H2SO4 + 3% H2O2. Took about a week for the whole thing to dissolve.
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The_Davster
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When the HCl was added it sunk to below the bleach and copper and as the chlorine rose out of the solution it passed to copper and instantly corrroded
it. So it could have been the chlorine bubbles acting as the oxidizer
[Edited on 8-3-2004 by rogue chemist]
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darkflame89
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What a good idea!! I'm going to try this out as soon as possible. I will
just have to be very careful about the MASS production of chlorine gas. Actually, how much chlorine is produced?
Ignis ubique latet, naturam amplectitur omnem.
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darkflame89
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oh ya, and an additional request: What is the chemical reaction going on in this method?
Ignis ubique latet, naturam amplectitur omnem.
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The_Davster
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Too much chlorine to do it inside, but not like in a WWI movie with the massive clouds of chlorine at ground level, I did this in the evening so I was
not able to see much chlorine gas and I imagine that during the day not much would be visible. After you have added the acid just go inside and wait
for a while. This reaction is easy to do if there is a slight breeze and if not it still would work, just don't sniff the reaction vessel for
prolonged periods of time. 
I believe the reaction is either the hypochlorite ion acting as the oxidizer or the chlorine in the solution, and the reducing agent is the copper
metal. The copper metal is oxidized to primarily the Cu(I) but the addition of bleach in step 4 oxidizes some copper(I) to copper(II). Any unreacted
copper(I) will still react with the sodium bicarbonate to make copper(II) carbonate.
Im really beginning to like my reduction half reaction table from my chem course.
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darkflame89
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Anyway before i tried this wonderful method(in my opinion), i have this solution in which i reacted copper with ethanoic acid(vinegar) over the
course of one week. The resulting solution was blue. Then i decided to try again, this time with NaCl added to the viengar. After 3 days, the whole
solution turned green. After checking it out in my book, this is due to the chlorine ligand, forming a copper tetrachloride(II) ion.
Does this affect the reaction with NaHCO3 in anyway to produce copper carbonate?
Ignis ubique latet, naturam amplectitur omnem.
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The_Davster
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I'm gonna have to try that copper tetrachloride(II).
If you react this mix with the sodium bicarbonate i think that you will get copper tetrachloride(II) carbonate but I'm not really sure. I have
almost no experiance with that type of cation.
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darkflame89
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That's what i did, i reacted NaHCO3 with that cation, got a precipitate which i filtered and dried. I then got a sort of olive green solid quite
unlike the normal bright green copper carbonate from CuSO4.
Ignis ubique latet, naturam amplectitur omnem.
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The_Davster
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Thats odd(to me), a green copper carbonate. Mine was blue when it precipitated, and on heating turns green. Am I right to assume that the blue is
copper(II) carbonate and the green is copper (I) carbonate?
btw this MSDS lists copper carbonate as a "green or blue powder"
http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/CO/copper_II_carbonate.html
[Edited on 12-3-2004 by rogue chemist]
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Quince
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| Quote: | Originally posted by rogue chemist
I'm gonna have to try that copper tetrachloride(II).
If you react this mix with the sodium bicarbonate i think that you will get copper tetrachloride(II) carbonate but I'm not really sure. I have
almost no experiance with that type of cation. |
Will this copper chloride react with lead to produce lead chloride, or can the copper chloride be changed to copper acetate?
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12AX7
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Once you make copper chloride you could react it with lead metal, but it might passivate. Boiling will increase solubility and should allow it to
proceed, but then you've got to reflux it or whatever...
You can always precipitate hydroxide and dissolve in acetic acid, or use the other methods in the PbO thread.
If you just want to oxidize lead, do it electrolytically. I have a cell running right now, with mainly KClO3 as the electrolyte. ClO4 would probably
be safer, too bad I don't have any. This run I'm trying it with some NaAc too.
Tim
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Quince
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I electrolyzed lead in some copper-salt based electrolyte (lead was the anode), and it turned black with white speckles. WTF?
I'm actually after lead acetate. I think I'll try making copper carbonate from copper sulfate and sodium carbonate (roasted baking soda),
and adding vinegar to get copper acetate, and then mixing in lead shavings. I'm still going for trying that patent for diffusing the platinum
plating into the surface of the tungsten, and it says there should be a bit of lead acetate in the electroplating solution. But I'll have to
find a cheaper source of platinum, as I only have 0.3 g.
[Edited on 12-6-2005 by Quince]
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YT2095
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*Bump*
I`ve also made copper carbonate over the last few days, using the copper cladding off gouging rods (it`s fairly pure) dissolved nitric acid, I had
half a litre of saturated copper nitrate at this point.
since I May want some of this to be Pyro grade and sodium free, I used a strong soln of Potassium Carbonate, now the strange thing happens when mixing
these, adding the k carb to the Cu nitrate instantly there is a light PPT, if you go Over and add excess K carb the clear liquid start s to turn Blue.
I made 2 pots of this mix, the one that read as neutral PH, was an olive/moss green color, the ppt in the more Basic soln is a lovely turquoise blue.
these colors remain so even when Dry.
thus far the nearest thing I can think of is that the Blue is related to Azurite, and the Green closer to Malachite.
I can`t be certain yet, but I beleive both should be viable for the most part as a copper ion doner and should react reasonably well with benzoic acid
or anything else I may with to throw at it.
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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Mason_Grand_ANNdrews
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A probelme is that copper carbonate is copper(II)hydroxide
carbonate, CuCO3 * Cu(OH)2.
Do you think this is right with copper ? The process works
with silver correct. A saturated silvernitrate solution will give
a precipitate of silvercarbonate that can be filtered when it is
diluted with dilute sodium carbonate solution. The following
formulas are very interesting. Silver oxide and HNO3 give
besides silver nitrate.
Ag2O + 2 HNO3 -> 2 AgNO3 + H2O
Ag2CO3 -> Ag2O + CO2 (decomposition)
Ag + 2 HNO3 -> AgNO3 + NO2 + H2O
2 AgNO3 + 2 NaOH -> Ag2O + 2 NaNO3 + H2O
2 AgNO3 + Na2CO3 -> Ag2CO3 + 2 NaNO3
I belive copper(I)oxide or a copper oxide wire in 70% HNO3
give a useful copper nitrate solution.
Cu2O + 2 HNO3 -> 2 CuNO3 + H2O
Cu + 2 HNO3 -> CuNO3 + NO2 + H2O
Copper(I)oxide is available as a dark red powder from chem
suppliers. (CAS-Nr. 1317-39-1)
I have some suggestions to the copper hypochlorit and
copper carbonate separation. I don´t know the result is
copperchloride hypochlorit or copper hypochlorit hydroxide.
CuCl(OCl) * H2O or rather
Cu(OCl)2 * Cu(OH)2
Add 4,4 g copper powder or a grindet copper pice to
100 ml water and 36,4 ml 25% HCl in a 1000 ml beaker
and heat the water to 60 °C. In very small portions stir
10 g of calicum hypochlorit powder, prepared from calicum
hypochlorit tabs, in the water, wait for react and stir until no
chlorine will bubble off. This acords a 50% calicumchloride
hypochlorit solution over the reaction time. At next, hold the
temperature and bubble CO2 gas through the mix until no
fumes of chlorine will bubble off, filter the precipitate and
wash the filtrate with 3000 ml water to remove the
remainders of calcium hydroxide and calcium chloride. The
copper(II)hydroxide carbonate can be dryed on the filter
paper. You can use 400 ml water instead of 100 ml what
give a around 10 - 14 % calicumchloride hypochlorit after
adding HCl.
Ca(OCl)2 + 2 HCl -> CaCl(OCl) + Cl2 + H2O
Cu + 2 CaCl(OCl) + 2 HCl -> CuCl(OCl) + 2 CaCl2 + H2O
2 CuCl(OCl) + H2O + CO2 -> CuCO3 * Cu(OH)2 + Cl2
I don´t know this is correct with 6 - 14% sodium hypochlorit
solution instead of calcium hypochlorit, only one electron.
May be anyone have some infos about the maximum
saturation of calcium hypochlorit in water.
Cu + 2 Na(OCl) + 2 HCl -> CuCl(OCl) + 2 NaCl + H2O
I think this work with sodium hydrogen carbonate instead of
CO2 gas. I mean the copper hypochlorit solution should give
copper(II) hydroxide carbonate and NaCl when it reacts with
sodium hydrogen carbonate, you need 5,9 g sodium
hydrogen carbonate.
2 CuCl(OCl) + 2 NaHCO3 -> CuCO3 * Cu(OH)2 + NaClO +
NaCl + CO2 + Cl2
Maight this is a similar way with sodium carbonate, you need
around 20 g soda.
4 CuCl(OCl) + 2 Na2CO3 + 2 H2O -> 2 CuCO3 * Cu(OH)2
+ 2 NaClO + 2 NaCl + 2 Cl2 + O2
I would guess the reaction can work backwards with a
chlorination in some water. This should give copperchloride
hypochlorit and copper (I)chloride.
CuCO3 * Cu(OH)2 + 2 Cl2 -> CuCl(OCl) + CuCl + CO2 +
HCl + 2 H2O
Have someone any hints to the copper sulfide reaction. I
belive this can help to prepare copper carbonate. You starts
with anhydrous coper(II)sulfat and carbon to reduce the
coper(II)sulfat to copper sulfide by heating the mix. Then
prepare a slurry of the result and water and bubble CO2
gas through the mixture until no copper carbonate
precipitates. I belive this can be calculated by weight.
CuSO4 + 2 C -> CuS + 2 CO2
2 CuS + 2 CO2 + 3 H20 -> CuCO3 * Cu(OH)2 + 2 H2S + CO2
Might that copper sulfide will give copper carbonate with
soda or sodium hydrogen carbonate.
Excuse for some errors in the formulas. Seems not easy. I
will correct them later when i have found.
I have uploaded the corrected post to the copper carbonate.
When anyone can found some errors, please comment.
[Edited on 25-11-2006 by Mason_Grand_ANNdrews]
[Edited on 26-11-2006 by Mason_Grand_ANNdrews]
[Edited on 26-11-2006 by Mason_Grand_ANNdrews]
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