metalresearcher
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Cellulose with KNO3 and KClO3 : the differences
Here I tried face cleaning pads of cellulose with nitrate and chlorate.
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Any opinions on this ?
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Bot0nist
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Chlorate is obviously the winner, ehh.
For a better effect try dissolving the oxidizers in water and soaking the cotton with it for better distribution of oxidant to fuel. Allow the cotton
to dry without squeezing the solution out of it. The reaction will proceed much faster, especially the chlorate soaked one.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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Blasty
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If you use nitrocellulose soaked in a solution of the oxidizer salt, removing the excess solution from it and allowing it to dry, you get quick &
violent flashes. Oxidizing salts of barium and strontium will give colored flashes.
For obvious reasons, chlorates are not recommended for this. Traces of nitric/sulphuric acid in not adequately neutralized nitrocellulose could ignite
the mixture spontaneously.
[Edited on 2-4-2011 by Blasty]
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The WiZard is In
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Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  | Chlorate is obviously the winner, ehh.
For a better effect try dissolving the oxidizers in water and soaking the cotton with it for better distribution of oxidant to fuel. Allow the cotton
to dry without squeezing the solution out of it. The reaction will proceed much faster, especially the chlorate soaked one. |
Not as spectacular as KClO3 but a lot faster. Sprinkle on a little
sodium peroxide and add a drop of water.
Byda NaNO3 - 1gm 2.8ml water, KClO3 -1gm 16.5 ml water.
"Dissolves slowly."
Try sodium chlorate. A little sodium chlorate.
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mewrox99
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I suggest not putting your ungloved finger inside the bottle of KClO3 to scoop it out. It's bad lab practice and chlorates are rather toxic
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White Yeti
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It's really quite simple. Two moles of nitrate yields one mole of oxygen, two moles of chlorate yields 3 moles of oxygen. Which one do you think is
better?
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by White Yeti | | It's really quite simple. Two moles of nitrate yields one mole of oxygen, two moles of chlorate yields 3 moles of oxygen. Which one do you think is
better? |
Better? The one the releases oxygen more easily. Quantity
has nothing to do with it.
djh
----
The most singular properties of this
salt consist more particularly in the violent
mode of action it exhibits with combustible
bodies. This may even be considered as
surprizing, when compared with those
afforded by all the other known
saline substances. The super-oxigenated
muriate of pot-ash seems to include the
elements of thunder in its particles. A
chemist can produce effects almost
miraculous by its means, and nature
seems to have concentrated all its
power of detonation, fulmination,
and inflammation in this terrible
compound.
Antoine-François de Fourcroy (comte)
A general system of chemical knowledge,
and its application to the phenomena of
nature and art.
Volume 3 Section fifth
Concerning Alkaline and Earthy Salts
1804
[Edited on 2-8-2011 by The WiZard is In]
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White Yeti
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"Better? The one [that] releases oxygen more easily. Quantity
has nothing to do with it."
With all due respect, still I think KClO3 is better, no matter how much less reactive it may be. In terms of its use as a rocket fuel, you can cram
more oxygen into a given amount of space (2.34g/cc vs. 2.11g/cc). You also carry around less mass that doesn't contribute to combustion:
KCl--> 39+35.5= 74.5g/mol
KNO2--> 39+14+2(16)= 85g/mol
It may seem like a small difference, but scale this up to 1Kg of pyrotechnic awesomeness and all of a sudden, your rocket engine is 100s of grams
lighter.
Besides, at temperatures exceeding 800C found in rocket engines, it doesn't matter if nitrate releases oxygen more easily, both substances would give
up their oxygens just as fast.
Personally, I would use perchlorates for making rocket boosters instead of chlorate, but that's just me.
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by White Yeti | "Better? The one [that] releases oxygen more easily. Quantity
has nothing to do with it."
With all due respect, still I think KClO3 is better, no matter how much less reactive it may be. In terms of its use as a rocket fuel, you can cram
more oxygen into a given amount of space (2.34g/cc vs. 2.11g/cc). You also carry around less mass that doesn't contribute to combustion:
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Good greif. I strongly implied that la chlorate was better,
being much-much more reactive.
Ammonium perchlorate is used in rockets - think Space Shuttle
for the obvious chemical reason.
djh
----
The Space Shuttle Booster Engines,
produce as much pollution as burning
tens of thousands of ..... rubber tires!!
1989 use of ammonium perchlorate
was 18.8 million pounds.
Chemical and Engineering News
August 8, 1988
At that time it was estimated use by
1990 for rockets would reach 68 million
pounds.
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White Yeti
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Your last post made it sound like nitrate was more reactive, even though it has less available oxygen, and is thus better than chlorate. My apologies.
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Adas
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In fact, KNO3 can release more than one oxygen atom, watch this:
2 KNO3 ----> 2 KNO2 + O2
2 KNO2 ----> K2O + NO2 + NO
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White Yeti
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Given the right conditions, it will lose most of its oxygens, but the energy needed to separate the oxygens from KNO2 would be greater than the energy
released when the oxygens are used up through the combustion of fuel.
"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
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hissingnoise
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When BP burns, the bulk of potassium appears as carbonate with smaller quantities of sulphate and sulphide - so you're mostly talking rubbish.
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AndersHoveland
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I tried cotton soaked in boiling KNO3 solution, that was then evaporated. When ignited, it burnt fairly rapidly, similar to a burning fuse but not
quite so rapid and easily. I also tried ammonium nitrate dissolved in 91% isopropyl alcohol on the cotton. It was allowed to evaporate in an oven on
low heat. But when the cotton treated in this way was ignited its burning was almost no different than regular cotton. It fizzed a little, but nothing
notable.
I also tried this with ammonium perchlorate, but the effects were not impressive, probably because NH4ClO4 has such a low solubility in water. Simply
mixing cotton with NH4ClO4, without soaking, only made an intense flare
One idea would be to start with partially nitrated cellulose, then treat with a hot solution of KClO3, then evaporate.
While KNO3 can give up "2 and a half" of its oxygen atoms, the salt seems to be somewhat reluctant to decompose unless there is also some sulfur in
the composition. I have done several pyrotechnic experiments in the past, and NaNO3 compositions always burned much better when some sulfur was added.
The formation of K2O is not extremely favorable.
(4)KNO3 --> (2)K2O + (2)N2 + (5)O2
(2)KNO3 + S --> K2SO4 + O2
(4)KNO3 + (2)S --> (2)K2SO3 + (3)O2
K2O + CO2 <==> K2CO3 [intense heat]
Some of the K2O will react with CO2 to form K2CO3, but potassium carbonate would tend to decompose under such heat, absorbing energy as it does so.
The exact reactions are somewhat complicated. But chlorate is certainly better than nitrate.
(2)KClO3 --> (2)KCl + (3)O2
KClO4 --> KCl + (2)O2
Perchlorate has even more oxygen than chlorate, but it also decomposes at a moderately higher temperature. The net effect seems to be a
slower burn rate, but more energy released. My personal observations are that ammonium perchlorate compositions seem to burn faster than potassium
perchlorate, which is just the opposite trend observed with the nitrates. Whereas potassium nitrate will certainly act as an oxidizer (often only
burning reluctantly), ammonium nitrate appears to be essentially useless in pyrotechnic compositions. It just absorbs too much heat as it is
decomposing. Even magnesium powder burning with NH4NO3 did not burn very fast compared to other typical compositions, it just flared and produced
plenty of white smoke.
[Edited on 7-12-2011 by AndersHoveland]
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