Draeger
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Ways to precipitate sodium ions?
It would be very useful for recycling waste, since that's my usual contaminant.
I wonder if it'd be possible somehow?
Collected elements:
Al, Cu, Ga, C (coal), S, Zn, Na
Collected compounds:
Inorganic:
NaOH; NaHCO3; MnCl2; MnCO3; CuSO4; FeSO4; aq. 30-33% HCl; aq. NaClO; aq. 9,5% ammonia; aq. 94-96% H2SO4; aq. 3% H2O2
Organic:
citric acid, sodium acetate, sodium citrate, petroleum, mineral oil
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clearly_not_atara
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This is very hard. Ammonium fluorosilicate comes to mind. If uranium (!) is available, Na+ can be precipitated as the triple salt sodium uranyl zinc
acetate.
Another possibility is orotic acid:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ac50154a050
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Draeger
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Woah. I didn't expect it to be that hard. Both fluorine and uranium compounds are far too dangerous for me currently, not to mention the difficulty of
finding anything radioactive here.
Orotic acid I haven't looked for yet, but I guess that's my only chance.
Thank you.
Collected elements:
Al, Cu, Ga, C (coal), S, Zn, Na
Collected compounds:
Inorganic:
NaOH; NaHCO3; MnCl2; MnCO3; CuSO4; FeSO4; aq. 30-33% HCl; aq. NaClO; aq. 9,5% ammonia; aq. 94-96% H2SO4; aq. 3% H2O2
Organic:
citric acid, sodium acetate, sodium citrate, petroleum, mineral oil
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CharlieA
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If you are just wanting to treat your Na ion waste before discarding it, why not just evaporate the waste to dryness and put the waste in a plastic
bag and discard it in the trash? I assume that your sodium waste will not contain especially hazardous salts of sodium.
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Ubya
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maybe not precipitate, but you could use a cation absorbing resin to switch Na+ with H+. By later washing the resing with dilute acid you'll get the
sodium ions in solution
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Whathappensif
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I was going to suggest an ion exchange resin (e.g. for water softeners) but see that Ubya beat me to it 
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unionised
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Quote: Originally posted by Ubya  | | maybe not precipitate, but you could use a cation absorbing resin to switch Na+ with H+. By later washing the resing with dilute acid you'll get the
sodium ions in solution |
And an even bigger volume of waste containing sodium ions...
The world produces something like 250 million tons of salt per year.
Your contribution to sodium ion sin waste streams isn't going to be a problem.
Incidentally, while it's not what's usually thought of as a "precipitate" you can sometimes recover sodium sulphate by crystallization, especially if
the weather is cold.
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outer_limits
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To be honest, sodium ions are harmless for environment in laboratory scale, and I think that you will waste your money and time (or even health if
you'll use a dangerous compound) to reduce it's amount.
If it was mercury or lead (for an instance) you should handle the waste in proper manner. But sodium? Flush it and forget.
Or boil the water, melt precipitate and get sodium metal by electrolysis.
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wg48temp9
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| Quote: Originally posted by Ubya | | maybe not precipitate, but you could use a cation absorbing resin to switch Na+ with H+. By later washing the resing with dilute acid you'll get the
sodium ions in solution |
Could I wash the resin with a copper salt to convert say sodium hypophosphite to the copper salt assuming the copper salt is soluble?
I am wg48 but not on my usual pc hence the temp handle.
Thank goodness for Fleming and the fungi.
Old codger' lives matters, wear a mask and help save them.
Be aware of demagoguery, keep your frontal lobes fully engaged.
I don't know who invented mRNA vaccines but they should get a fancy medal and I hope they made a shed load of money from it.
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Ubya
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| Quote: Originally posted by wg48temp9 | | Quote: Originally posted by Ubya | | maybe not precipitate, but you could use a cation absorbing resin to switch Na+ with H+. By later washing the resing with dilute acid you'll get the
sodium ions in solution |
Could I wash the resin with a copper salt to convert say sodium hypophosphite to the copper salt assuming the copper salt is soluble?
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not with 100% conversion rate but i think it could be done
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wg48temp9
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Thanks, I will give it try with water softener resin.
I am wg48 but not on my usual pc hence the temp handle.
Thank goodness for Fleming and the fungi.
Old codger' lives matters, wear a mask and help save them.
Be aware of demagoguery, keep your frontal lobes fully engaged.
I don't know who invented mRNA vaccines but they should get a fancy medal and I hope they made a shed load of money from it.
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Whathappensif
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Some bacteria are able to survive in pure water.
Presumably the interior of their cell must be at a higher osmotic pressure to the surrounding fluid. How do these bacteria maintain the osmotic
pressure without losing their Na+ ions?
Are there micro-organisms that can work against the osmotic pressure and concentrate Na+ from a hypotonic environment? How do they do it?
Attachment: liao2003.pdf (115kB)
This file has been downloaded 313 times
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Draeger
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I don't want to get rid of the sodium because I'm worried about it getting into nature, I just want to recover other elements that are more expensive
than sodium.
Collected elements:
Al, Cu, Ga, C (coal), S, Zn, Na
Collected compounds:
Inorganic:
NaOH; NaHCO3; MnCl2; MnCO3; CuSO4; FeSO4; aq. 30-33% HCl; aq. NaClO; aq. 9,5% ammonia; aq. 94-96% H2SO4; aq. 3% H2O2
Organic:
citric acid, sodium acetate, sodium citrate, petroleum, mineral oil
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Eddie Current
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I'm pretty sure it came from there in the first place.
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Ubya
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| Quote: Originally posted by Whathappensif |
Are there micro-organisms that can work against the osmotic pressure and concentrate Na+ from a hypotonic environment? How do they do it?
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pretty much all of them do it, you also do it. cells have active transportation mechanisms, the Na-K pump for example, the concentration of Na ions in
the cell is much lower than ambient they are in, while it is the opposite for potassium. Chloride ions concentration is also very low inside of cells.
how do bacteria survive in distilled water without exploding? probably it has to do with their cell wall, it is thick and apolar, but my knowledge
ends there
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clearly_not_atara
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In almost all cases you will find it easiest to precipitate the other components rather than sodium. Potassium and lithium can be precipitated by
bitartrate and phosphate respectively, but sodium is just the goddamn worst.
Sodium hydrogen oxalate is also relatively insoluble at low temperatures (1-2 wt%). However, practically all other oxalates are also insoluble, so you
just precipitate a mixture of oxalates. Not very useful IMHO.
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garphield
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as someone else suggested the solubility of sodium sulfate becomes very low at cold temperatures but this would only work if the stuff you want to
recover has a soluble sulfide. in all other cases its probably better to use an ion exchange resin or precipitate out the stuff you want
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unionised
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| Quote: Originally posted by wg48temp9 |
Could I wash the resin with a copper salt to convert say sodium hypophosphite to the copper salt assuming the copper salt is soluble?
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Does hypophosphite reduce copper salts to the metal?
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Bedlasky
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There are few insoluble or sparingly soluble sodium salts:
NaZn(UO2)3(CH3COO)9.6H2O
NaMg(UO2)3(CH3COO)9.6H2O
Na3[AlF6]
Na2[SiF6]
Na[Sb(OH)6]
NaBiO3
Na2U2O7
Na4[Pt3S6]
But these are good for small scale precipitation.
I don't know if there is reduction in to the metalic copper, but at least in to Cu(I) yes.
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woelen
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Hypophosphite reduces copper(II) to the hydride, you get fine crystals of CuH, when a solution of a copper salt is treated with a solution of a
hypophosphite. This reaction is slow, unless the liquid is gently heated.
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wg48temp9
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| Quote: Originally posted by woelen | | Hypophosphite reduces copper(II) to the hydride, you get fine crystals of CuH, when a solution of a copper salt is treated with a solution of a
hypophosphite. This reaction is slow, unless the liquid is gently heated. |
I recall a preparation to produce a Copper hypophosphiten(HP) solution using calcium HP and copper sulphate. So if it does decompose it must be slowly
as you stated.
The solution can be used to deposit copper tracks on a board when its heated. that's my use.
The decomposition to the hydride occurs in acid solution with some copper depending on the ph.
See Attachment: CuH-fitzsimons1995.pdf (1.1MB)
This file has been downloaded 423 times
I have now found an old thread on SM about copper HP.
I am wg48 but not on my usual pc hence the temp handle.
Thank goodness for Fleming and the fungi.
Old codger' lives matters, wear a mask and help save them.
Be aware of demagoguery, keep your frontal lobes fully engaged.
I don't know who invented mRNA vaccines but they should get a fancy medal and I hope they made a shed load of money from it.
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symboom
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Sodium colbaltinitrite is insoluble
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Bedlasky
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Sodium salt is soluble. Potassium is insoluble.
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