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m1tanker78
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Soooodddddiiiiiuuuummmm!
Finally raked in some satisfaction today. I decided to fire-up my small scale sodium experiment and see how much I'd end up with. At ~5 grams: not too
terribly well but not too shabby for a half hour. I cut it short because my collection tube is unfortunately mounted way too high so the Na solidifies
half way up the stack. Couple more inches and it'd be able to slide down the chute and land in a soothing oil bath.
The contraption is crude but works some of the time. as an added bonus, I pulled out some calcium metal too - about 1 gram; unmistakable red flame.
That's strange, I though CaCL2 didn't participate in the reaction, only bring the melting point down. Either way, I'm ditching CaCL2 from now on
because all it seems to do is bring the melt morale downl
Bottom line, I have 5+ grams of metallic sodium sitting in my shop in a container filled with the cheapest, nastiest motor oil money can buy. Well,
make that 4+ grams. My neighbor and I couldn't resist  .
I'm going to put some ideas on paper and see how they would theoretically perform. Then on to the fab.
Tom
[Edited on 2-12-2011 by m1tanker78]
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woelen
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Which sodium experiment?
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Fleaker
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Pictures?
Neither flask nor beaker.
"Kid, you don't even know just what you don't know. "
--The Dark Lord Sauron
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entropy51
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Sworn affadavit?
5 ounces in 30 minutes? I think that would require 357 amps. I would indeed like to see pictures of this rig.
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peach
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I think he's talking about a retort of some description, with the mention of the stack, chute and collecting tube, yet no mention of power supplies or
electrodes.
But yes... pictures!
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UnintentionalChaos
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To me, it sounds more like a downs cell, the sodium being forced up a collecting tube by it's much lower density than the fused salt mixture.
Department of Redundancy Department - Now with paperwork!
'In organic synthesis, we call decomposition products "crap", however this is not a IUPAC approved nomenclature.' -Nicodem
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m1tanker78
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@Fleaker: I didn't take any pics because I didn't expect it to produce much Na. Most of the Na has gone to Heaven due to experimentation but I managed
to snap a few pics of the leftovers with my cell phone. I'll post 'em when I figure out how to upload them from my phone.
@woelen: The main experiment was testing the setup to see if I could extract small quantities of Na (which surprisingly it did). It isn't easy to
simply take a Downs Cell and just scale it down. Several problems arise such as:
1) SAFETY(!!!)
2) The container material.
3) Electrode material.
4) How to orient the electrodes.
5) Choice of salt(s).
6) How to isolate and collect the newly formed Na from the melt.
7) How to deal with the chlorine gas that is evolved - this is a biggie. (Lime has been good for me)
8) Power supply.
9) Material choice for partially isolating Cl and Na in the melt.
And a lot of others. It's not as easy as sticking 2 electrodes in a salt bath and having an ice cold beer while the crucible fills with Na. One can
dream, though
Anyway, my challenge was to collect a little Na in a steel tube with the electrodes introduced from the TOP of the cell. The collection tube was not
part of the circuit. It would've been nice to collect the Na in a continuous manner - maybe next time.
Oh and using NaCl was the other main personal challenge (high MP, chlorine evolution). NaOH is much easier to work with but considerably expensive
compared to NaCl. I ran some quick calculations and the lower MP of NaOH doesn't offset the extra energy required to fuse NaCl. The 'cheap' NaOH
around here has a lot of foreign crap in it - including bits of aluminum catalyst.
I didn't know sodium peroxide could form in air. I thought it had to be formed in an O2-rich environment. If I quickly heat (burn) the Na, I get
sodium oxide. If I indirectly warm the Na, I get sodium peroxide. I also see that it doesn't take much Na to drastically raise the pH of water.
Tom
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m1tanker78
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Sorry for the confusion. I meant to say *grams* in my original post, not ounces. That's what happens when you post at 2a.m. and you're raised with
imperial units. If I had 5 ounces of Na I would have taken a quick trip to the lake 
Now that I know that this works to some degree, I promise to snap some pics on the next round (hopefully later today). I need to modify the rig so
that more of the stack is submerged in the salt so the Na will remain molten further up and be able to decant. Or maybe modify the cathode to where it
passes through the stack (easier said than done!). Plus, when the stack begins to fill with Na, it will effectively chathodize the stack meaning most
Na would form on the outside. If there were some way to passivate the outside of the steel stack....... been there, tried that, failed.
The power supply is a DC inverter welder (200 or 225 amp). I manually modulate the amperage from between 20 to 80-ish amps though to try and strike a
balance between melt temp/production/anode deterioration.
I'm using steel for the cathode and carbon for the anode.
Tom
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peach
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Grams and ounces aside, still sounds interesting!
Please do get some photos!
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blogfast25
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Oookaaayyy. So this is classic electrolysis of NaCl/CaCl2 (now even minus the CaCl2!) Forget about scaling that up in a garden shed lab. Len1’s NaOH
cell is hard enough…
Want electrolytic sodium? Try a simple NaOH ‘cell’, an argon blanket to protect the nascent sodium, a gauze spoon to scoop blobs of molten Na into
an oil filled recipient. It’s not really terribly hard to do but as entropy51 pointed out, it takes lot of electron juice to make appreciable
quantities.
You pulled out some calcium pellets too? Wrong voltage, I’m guessing…
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m1tanker78
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Yes.
C'mon, now! 
If we're thinking about the same thread, I read through the ENTIRE thing, twice. Very long but interesting thread indeed. Hard? Yes. Impossible? Heck
no!
Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  | | Want electrolytic sodium? Try a simple NaOH ‘cell’, an argon blanket to protect the nascent sodium, a gauze spoon to scoop blobs of molten Na into
an oil filled recipient. It’s not really terribly hard to do but as entropy51 pointed out, it takes lot of electron juice to make appreciable
quantities. |
I'm definitely not discounting the use of a NaOH cell nor anyone else's cell design. I may very well end up using NaOH if/when I would like to extract
some Na. I like the idea of using NaCl, though. Not necessarily from a practical standpoint; more experimental than anything. My NaCl 'cell' did just
that and there are MANY improvements that can be made to it to increase efficiency as well as some autonomy. Heck, I extracted a few grams of
relatively clean Na with a welder and some junk I had laying around the shop.
Hell yes! Wrong voltage is an understatement...
@Peach: I'm uploading a few pics as well as a short video. My phone gets a case of the ass when I want to upload media. 
Tom
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entropy51
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| Quote: Originally posted by m1tanker78 | | Sorry for the confusion. I meant to say *grams* in my original post, not ounces. That's what happens when you post at 2a.m. and you're raised with
imperial units. If I had 5 ounces of Na I would have taken a quick trip to the lake |
Really? You wrote ounces three separate times in your original post. Hardly a slip.
You're also the guy who wanted to make NaOH by dissolving Na metal in H2O.
I think you were, and are still, feeding us fairy dust.
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m1tanker78
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| Quote: Originally posted by entropy51 | Really? You wrote ounces three separate times in your original post. Hardly a slip.
You're also the guy who wanted to make NaOH by dissolving Na metal in H2O.
I think you were, and are still, feeding us fairy dust. |
Yeah, that must be it. But seriously, why would I feed anyone B.S.? You're not obligated to believe it.....
I'm no chemist but:
| Quote: | Sodium reacts with water to form sodium hydroxide and hydrogen gas according to the
equation:
2 Na (s) + 2 H20 (l) ---> 2 NaOH (aq) + H2 (g) |
Practical or not, it is possible.
Tom
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m1tanker78
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Sodium pics and vid.
Here's a couple of pics of what's left of my Na and a short vid where I drop a couple of specks in some alkaline water. The pill bottle contains small
chunks/specks while the larger container has larger chunks in it. Take it for what it's worth - Na or "fairy dust" and forgive the poor quality....
  
And here's the youtube vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdgKQPPIP-A
Tom
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bfesser
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You might want to keep your work area just a bit cleaner--looks a bit too much like a meth lab to the authorities, if you don't.
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m1tanker78
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Good Lord! I hit the wrong button. I meant to post this as a reply to this thread:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=15498
Mods, can this be moved?
Tom
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entropy51
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Well, that's convincing evidence of, errr, ummm...inconclusiveness.
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Sedit
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Stop fucking trolling, you asked for proof and he gave it to everyone. Enough said, sheeesh does this place have to turn into a troll fest for
everything?
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Threads Merged
12-2-2011 at 19:11 |
entropy51
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sedit | | Stop fucking trolling, you asked for proof and he gave it to everyone. Enough said, sheeesh does this place have to turn into a troll fest for
everything? |
That would be funny if it weren't so lame. You were one of the main Troll Testers in the thread
about Pok's potassium method.
The video tells us nothing about how the sodium (?) was made. I've seen CaO give more reaction when added to water. He said he used an arc welder.
I've made more Na than he shows using a benchtop power supply.
[Edited on 13-2-2011 by entropy51]
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blogfast25
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@Sedit: look up the definition of trolling. Expressing doubt or being skeptical doesn't do it.
@m1tanker78: making NaOH by reacting Na with water is the naffest idea since Mozes. They practically pay you for buying it!
Even more so because NaOH is in fact produced by electrolysis of NaCl brine. If you’re interested (and serious) I’ll provide more info.
Re. your current sodium, I doubt if there’s 5 g there. I know what 5 g of potassium globules looks like and it’s a helluvalot more than that.
Next run: capture your Na in kerosene, paraffin (light) oil, paraffinic baby oil (but not silicone oil) instead of cheap motor oil…
[Edited on 13-2-2011 by blogfast25]
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Fleaker
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I was interested in seeing his idea of a Downs cell. I experimented with that about the time I joined this forum as Fleaker. My setup was in a coffee
can that I had coated with kaolin. The whole setup was heated in a small furnace I had made out of a stainless steel stock pot and perlite+1600 C
castable refractory. It was propane fired. The salt had to be melted and consistently kept hot, I used the same CaCl2/NaCl eutectic that this fellow
did. Temperature control was almost impossible. I remember getting chlorine, but I can't remember if I ever got any sodium. I used black iron piping
with a reducing adapter (bell-shaped) to collect the sodium.
Seeing as that was 7 years and several computers ago, I don't remember much more about it except that I concluded it was impractical to do on the
small scale because success was limited. I suppose a small unit could be built if one has electric heating and does it in a kiln. For the small size
of what I was doing, resistive heating of the bath was not sufficient to keep it liquid. I should have pictures or maybe a drawing in MS Paint of the
system. Now that sodium is (for me) cheap and readily available, this is of academic interest.
Neither flask nor beaker.
"Kid, you don't even know just what you don't know. "
--The Dark Lord Sauron
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blogfast25
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Talk about a homemade Downs Cell: cop a load of this, the link below is about the design of a Downs Cell, planned to operate at about 8 V and
400 A (!):
http://4hv.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?1987
Notice the size of the anode! And note also that the thread goes dead in mid 2008... Sadly because the design is exquisite!
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Sedit
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Blogfast I was expressing doubt and skeptism in Poks Sodium thread. Thats how its done, Not once did I come right out and tell pok hes a liar only
that I had suspicions he may be.
Expressing concerns then Asking for pictures only to still complain even after the person supplies them is trolling. His intent was to get a reaction
from M1 and had nothing to do with furthering the thread or expressing any concerns. To many threads are getting derailed lately and it should stop.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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blogfast25
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Sorry, but I saw no derailment here. Nor was anyone called a liar. M1’s initial reporting was shoddy: to claim 5 ounces and then backpeddle to 5 g
is (was) indeed suspicious, as is the claim ‘I pulled out some calcium metal too’. How pray, tell? Sodium contaminated with calcium, possibly.
Calcium and sodium are (apparently) only partly miscible so it’s not impossible…
The video is worthless: it doesn't even show the apparatus.
This experiment is worth a hell of a lot more skepsis that pok's did. Pok's description was clear as a bell, as crispy as his photos. At least so
far... Here we have lots of jubilation but little explanation.
[Edited on 13-2-2011 by blogfast25]
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m1tanker78
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@Blogfast: I agree about NaOH from Na + H2O is silly. I had to try it for myself, though. Now that I've done it, I can put it behind me. Although I
did get some very CLEAN NaOH...
As for the oil situation - you should have seen the look on my face when I switched off the power supply and pulled that stem out after the bath
cooled some. My choices were motor oil, WD40, dirty kerosine (lamp oil), or chain oil. The exposed Na was burning so I grabbed the motor oil and
dunked the entire stem in it. Oddly enough (or not) the oil now smells strongly of NaOH and the Na has tarnished quite a bit so I'm going to look for
one of the other oils you mentioned before the next run.
@Fleaker: I'd be interested to share notes with you about your previous attempt if you could dig them up.
@All: Some of this shit -IS- borderline trolling. It defeats the purpose of sharing ideas and thoughts. Having doubts isn't trolling but if you're
going to doubt everything then why even follow the thread? Discount the thing and move on if you don't believe it or if it's child's play to you...
One other thing. What's the deal? Do people come on here and make fake claims about stuff? I've been lurking the forum for a while and none come to
mind.
I was trying to show that an amateur (like me) can extract a considerable amount of Na from plain old NaCl without going over 100 amps (less,
actually). If you don't want to believe it then move on! You're not obligated to believe and I'm not obligated to bend over backwards to prove it.
Right?
Simmer down people!!!
Tom
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