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plante1999
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how extrac nickel
how i can extract nickel from copper nickel alloy?
thanks!!
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Sedit
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Tweezers, really little tweezers.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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plante1999
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....i see. i want to extrat it chemicaly to make nickel sulfate.
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bbartlog
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Not all that easy. There are already threads here on separating nickel and copper in solution; so you could dissolve the cupronickel in HCl (with
oxidizer, i.e. bubbled air or H2O2) and use one of the methods discussed there (many of these revolve around reducing the copper to precipitate it as
a cuprous salt).
There is also the Mond process which involves using carbon monoxide to selectively remove the nickel as nickel tetracarbonyl, but I imagine it would
be hideously dangerous to do at home, and anyway I'm not sure it would work so well on a substrate that was mostly copper.
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Sedit
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OK ok, you can get some of the copper out atlest appearent from my experiment with it where I left the sulfate of US nickle coins out for sometime,
(months) after along time I was left with a green solution and on the bottom was large(1inch and up) copper sulfate crystals all along the bottom.
I know that the mother liquid was now more concentrated in Nickle sulfate now but am unsure how much more concentrated.
I also tried (aq)NH3 which may have merit but I never fully investigated it. Copper forms a complex and Nickle precipitates as the hydroxide/oxide?
However Nickle can also form a complex but since copper does not precipitate in this manner after a few washes I was able to clean the precipitate and
convert it to the chloride using HCl and it proved to be Nickle chloride. I call the experiment incomplete because I never obtained data on yeilds or
correct concentration of ammonia solution in order to get the best purity and yeilds.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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blogfast25
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There are countless threads on this.
1. Dissolve coins in dilute NITRIC acid (HCl is useless for Cu AND Ni). Takes minutes, depending on acid strength.
2. Separate Ni from Cu on the basis of the difference in solubility of CuS and NiS (solubility products respectively 6 E-39 and 3 E-19). You need to
adjust the pH of the solution to the right value, then saturate the solution with H2S. Copper drops out as black CuS, Ni2+ stays in solution. Filter,
acidify filtrate and boil to get rid of sulphide. DO NOT KILL yourself with H2S poisoning.
Which pH exactly you need can be calculated and the calculation is available on this forum. Search and yee shall find! Look also for a Ni/Cd
separation thread: same principle...
Edit: a quick calculation showed that at pH < 2 the copper will still precipitate as CuS but the nickel stays in solution as Ni2+.
At that pH the concentration of S2- is simply too low for the solubility constant of NiS to be reached...
[Edited on 7-2-2011 by blogfast25]
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Wizzard
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Easiest way is the Mond process. BBart is right, but it's not that dangerous.
1. Granulate the alloy as small as you can.
2. Seal the alloy and carbon monoxide (generated by Zn+CaCO3->ZnO+CaO+CO in a sealed glass vessel with heat) in a long glass vessel (for a
temperature gradient). Consider a lower-case H, with your alloy in one leg, the CO source in the other and the heated end up top. Seal off the CO
source leg after the vessel is pressurized, and you will want to get at least some kind of vacuum in the chamber to suck out the atmosphere, but I
dont think it will tamper with your reaction much (especially if you're just making nickel sulfate, and not seeking pure nickel).
3. Heat one side to at least 75*C, and the other side (decomposition) to 250*C.
The nickel and only the nickel will be deposited on the hot side- Just be careful when you open the vessel, do it outside! CO is toxic!
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blogfast25
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Quote: Originally posted by Wizzard  | Easiest way is the Mond process. BBart is right, but it's not that dangerous.
1. Granulate the alloy as small as you can.
2. Seal the alloy and carbon monoxide (generated by Zn+CaCO3->ZnO+CaO+CO in a sealed glass vessel with heat) in a long glass vessel (for a
temperature gradient). Consider a lower-case H, with your alloy in one leg, the CO source in the other and the heated end up top. Seal off the CO
source leg after the vessel is pressurized, and you will want to get at least some kind of vacuum in the chamber to suck out the atmosphere, but I
dont think it will tamper with your reaction much (especially if you're just making nickel sulfate, and not seeking pure nickel).
3. Heat one side to at least 75*C, and the other side (decomposition) to 250*C.
The nickel and only the nickel will be deposited on the hot side- Just be careful when you open the vessel, do it outside! CO is toxic!
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Got a convenient source of CO, do you Wizzard? ;-)
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ScienceSquirrel
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Nickel carbonyl is far more toxic and nastier than carbon monoxide, making it at home with improvised equipment is just plain stupidity.
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blogfast25
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If you’re looking for a cheap source of Ni, use scrap Nichrome wire. Cr and Ni are relatively easy to separate, on account of Cr’s amphoterism.
Dissolve in nitric, precipitate hydroxides with NaOH (or Na2CO3) and then leach with copious amounts of strong, hot NaOH. Chromite gets lixiviated
out, Ni(OH)2 stays insoluble. There may be easier ways to do this, but this one doesn’t take much…
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Wizzard
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Just snagged from Wikipedia, calcium carbonate and elemental Zinc 
And a small amount out in the open can't be all THAT toxic- The directions provided (sealed in glass under vacuum), with a small vessel, all it would
take is some professional caution.
I think sealing it under glass and then pulling a vacuum (and then heating said vessel) would require more caution- I dont think anybody recommends
doing these things in their living room, so I would assume the whole project would be lab/garage do-able.
Also, nickel tertracarbonyl decomposes in air, in 60±5 seconds Ref: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1980Sci...208.1029S
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ScienceSquirrel
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It is very toxic, Wikipedia has a well referenced article;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_carbonyl
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bbartlog
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| Quote: | | HCl is useless for Cu AND Ni |
Eh, it depends on the timescales you are operating on. You're right that if you want to dissolve the metal within minutes or a few hours, HCl is not
so good (maybe with 30% H2O2 it would work, haven't tried it). But over a period of days, bubbled air plus HCl can work to dissolve either copper or
cupronickel. I agree that nitric acid is preferable if you have it; it just happens that HCl is cheap and OTC where I am, whereas I haven't found an
OTC source for nitric acid. Which is why I've used it.
I like the sulfide precipitation method you propose; I actually don't remember seeing that one before.
| Quote: | | Easiest way is the Mond process |
uh. Granulate cupronickel? With what, a mortar and pestle? How is that easy? But OK, let's say you use a bench grinder and get yourself some
cupronickel dust (sounds like a PITA on any larger scale but w/e). Next step is to somehow create a sealed glass vessel in the shape of an 'H',
preferably with vacuum attachment, carbon monoxide source and stopcock. Then we get to control temperature in two places carefully. I should note that
nickel tetracarbonyl can decompose explosively, so if you screw up somehow you could end up shattering your glass apparatus and suddenly exposing
yourself to an exceedingly toxic gas.
| Quote: | | be careful when you open the vessel, do it outside! CO is toxic! |
It's not the CO you have to worry about, here. Short-term exposure limit for CO is 400ppm (for a 15 minute exposure, according to the EPA - so this is
still sort of a safe level). By comparison, exposure to 3ppm of nickel tetracarbonyl for half an hour hits the LD50, and a single good lungful at
400ppm would likely kill you. Conservatively I would say it's a thousand times more toxic than carbon monoxide. And as an added bonus, sublethal
exposures can still leave you with heavy metal poisoning, whereas most sublethal CO poisoning will not result in serious long-term effects.
I'm not particularly cautious with chemicals, but really - leave this one alone unless you have professional-level skills and equipment. I might add
that many professionals also leave it be, see for example: http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2004/03/28/thing_i_wont...
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not_important
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Simple granulating of the alloy isn't very effective, the metals need to be very fine powders else the copper will shield much of the nickle (remember
that most nickle-copper coins contain more copper than nickle).
Nickle carbonyl is extremely toxic, and not to be messed with lightly. Deposits nickle within the body, it's toxic by itself, and even seconds is
enough exposure to really hurt you. And note that the decomposition time you referenced is in a carbon monoxide free state, and the Mond process
needs an excess of CO for practical rates; if it leaks it'll hang around for longer than that minute.
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Retard-3000
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Could he not react the alloy with nitric acid to form nickel nitrate and copper nitrate then use a more reactive metal then Ni and Cu such as
Aluminium or Magnesium to displace the nickel and copper?
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blogfast25
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Bbart:
Yes, if you have days to spare, HCl is great for Cu (LOL)! Ni and Cu are very similar there BTW, see a thread I got on ‘best solvent for silver
electroplated plated nickel’. Nitric is the solvent of choice for both, whether you have it or not.
The sulphides separation methods were once standard textbook material for wet analytical chemistry. Used for separating ‘more soluble’ sulphides
(like NiS and ZnS) from 'more insoluble ones' (like CuS, HgS, CdS, Sb2S3 etc). By regulating the pH, you regulate the concentration of S2-, thereby
controlling which solubility products get exceeded and which not. Smelly but simple and VERY effective (the degree of separation is extremely high).
Still: nichrome wire, anyone?
[Edited on 8-2-2011 by blogfast25]
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kmno4
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It can be done by electrochemical method. Cu/Ni alloy as anode, electrolyte - H2SO4aq + some dissolved alloy, Cu or SS as cathode.
You will get NiSO4 in solution and Cu on cathode.
Very elegant, very simple and economic way.
(I have impression that I have already seen discussions about separation of Cu-Ni in this forum)
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by kmno4 |
It can be done by electrochemical method. Cu/Ni alloy as anode, electrolyte - H2SO4aq + some dissolved alloy, Cu or SS as cathode.
You will get NiSO4 in solution and Cu on cathode.
Very elegant, very simple and economic way.
(I have impression that I have already seen discussions about separation of Cu-Ni in this forum) |
Voltage across electrodes, approximately?
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kmno4
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It depends, but less than 5 V if everything is OK.
It is more important not to exceed some current density.
At room temp. it is about 1 A/dm2.
In another case Cu discharging at cathode is faster than dissolution of alloy and Cu(2+) ions dissapears from solution.
At this moment voltage rises (at constant current) and cathodic Cu becomes very spongy and tends to grow in direction of anode.
This "critical" current density can be moved to higher values when solution is warm (50-80 C) + stirring.
Stirring is very important factor and can move this c.c.d to 5-10 A/dm2 or higher.
Dissolution of monel-like alloys is not very fast process but electrolysis can be conducting at low current densities without special control even for
a week.
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blogfast25
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Fairly large cathode should be an advantage to keep current density low...
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cyanureeves
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i am making nickel sulfate right now using two cupronickel coins in water/sulfuric acid solution and everything looks pretty good so far. i intend to
filter off nickel sulfate solution and ultimately make nickel acetate using vinegar.i dont know if sodium hydroxide or sodium carbonate would be
better to add to the nickel sulfate before making the acetate.i would really like to make nickel acetate from nickel oxide but i can only make the
black nickel oxide when i burn it with a torch. i have nickel sulfate but it is getting expensive to buy and nickel oxide(the yellow green one) is
twice as expensive.is the green nickel oxide pretty hard to make?is the black nickel oxide i make by burning nickel carbonate in fact nickel
oxide?nickel acetate is mainly what i want.
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blogfast25
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What electrolysis set up are you using (cathode, anode, voltage applied, current obtained, distance between electrodes...)?
Use NaOH and you get Ni(OH)2, use Na2CO3 and obtain Ni2CO3. Both dissolve well in vinegar to NiAc2.
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Sedit
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I have some good news, atlest it seems that way to me. I decided to mix up some HCl and H2O2 and place some Stainless steel flatware in it since this
is a nickle source that does not contain copper. It has been sitting for a while and of course its not dark green.
I added some to a flask and neutralized it with an ammonia solution. To my delight I got the precipitate I got from the experiments with US coins yet
this time there was no blue complex which is suppose to form with Nickle. That seems to suggest that seperation of the two is as simple as salting the
ore into its sulfates or HCl salts then mixing it with a solution of Ammonia hydroxide. The copper will stay in solution and you can recover your
nickle as a mixture of oxides/hydroxides.
There is one problem and thats the fineness of the precipitate. Gravity filtering is just a pain in the ass and will take forever and it does not
settle fast at all so decanting is also a messy operation that takes to long.
Any suggestions on how to clump up the precipitate?
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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cyanureeves
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nickel
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | What electrolysis set up are you using (cathode, anode, voltage applied, current obtained, distance between electrodes...)?
Use NaOH and you get Ni(OH)2, use Na2CO3 and obtain Ni2CO3. Both dissolve well in vinegar to NiAc2. |
i am
using 4.8 volts, distance between electrodes is about 4". the copper is all over the cathode and i just keep scraping it off. the solution is the
familiar green so far at about 4hrs of electrolyzing. i've done the carbonate before but did not plate with it because i was not sure if it was really
acetate. i will be using the hydroxide this time then.both anode and cathodes are cupronickel mexican coins and i'm getting a bonus metal precipitate
right below the annode. i believe i read mexican coins also have zinc. thank you.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sedit | I have some good news, atlest it seems that way to me. I decided to mix up some HCl and H2O2 and place some Stainless steel flatware in it since this
is a nickle source that does not contain copper. It has been sitting for a while and of course its not dark green.
I added some to a flask and neutralized it with an ammonia solution. To my delight I got the precipitate I got from the experiments with US coins yet
this time there was no blue complex which is suppose to form with Nickle. That seems to suggest that seperation of the two is as simple as salting the
ore into its sulfates or HCl salts then mixing it with a solution of Ammonia hydroxide. The copper will stay in solution and you can recover your
nickle as a mixture of oxides/hydroxides.
There is one problem and thats the fineness of the precipitate. Gravity filtering is just a pain in the ass and will take forever and it does not
settle fast at all so decanting is also a messy operation that takes to long.
Any suggestions on how to clump up the precipitate? |
“Stainless steel flatware”? What do you mean?
Strange indeed that no Ni(NH3)6 (2+) formed… You sure about this?
Freshly precipitated hydroxides can often be compacted by means of gentle simmering because they lose water: M(OH)m.n H2O (s) === > M(OH)m.n-x H2O
(s) + x H2O (l)
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