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Sedit
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Ceramic chemistry ware.
Over the past couple days I have been thinking alot about the construction of ceramic ware for resale and I wanted to get everyones take on if it
would be worth my time and money to begin such a project.
I have extensive experiance in making ceramics taking non credit college courses in the past and taking part in a variety of art shows to show
off my sculptures which is something my skills far exceed most in. Making such materials is well with in my abilitys without a doubt. I also will
reserve the right for future applications such as creating specialty materials such as high Silica carbide ceramics for use in high temperature
Microwave reaction as well as other special effects I would be able to achieve.
I'v been considering starting with the basics such as creating crucibles, test tubes, mortar pestles and various diameter tubing, all out of high
alumina porcelain. These are normally rated at temperatures of 1700 degrees C and up with a low thermal expansion coefficient which over time I would
be able to tweek the formula and decrease even more.
My main question is would there be a market for such a thing and if so would any of you be interested in buying equipment like this for use in muffle
furnaces and other high temperature reactions such as SO3 production or Phosphorus synthesis. If so, what would you all, as home chemist, like to see
created?
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Lambda-Eyde
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You won't profit from this if you only make normal ceramic labware like crucibles and mortars. If you make some special, niche items and take custom
orders, it might be viable. 
One idea for you: http://www.microwavekiln.com/
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Sedit
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Im positive that if people buy them I will profit but things like the microkiln are no doubt on my mind however I do not know if they own patent
rights for such a thing.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Sedit
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Also keep in mind I would more then likely be well capable of making custom designs if needed. I want to make some retorts for my own personal use and
thats where I started to get the idea from in the first place, as I researched various sites for ceramic chemistry ware I seen the potential to put a
skill I have to use for a change.
Also keep in mind that by buying things you will help a starving home chemist on his way to greater things  . I think if it pans out well and I indeed start making quality materials that people want I would be more then happy
to trade for glasswares and chemicals.
I would like some ideas for specialty ceramic materials. High alumina is the main goal right now and like stated above SiC ceramics are within reach.
Borosilicate ceramics will be a possibilty as well since I have a goal of reducing the thermal expansion down to the lowest factor possible. Once I
start to get materials I would like to experiment with super conducting magnets also.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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watson.fawkes
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Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  | | I would like some ideas for specialty ceramic materials. High alumina is the main goal right now and like stated above SiC ceramics are within reach.
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High alumina materials require the not-cheapest sorts of heating elements for their kilns. Do look into what
it takes to reach appropriate sintering temperatures; it's more that Kanthal resistance wire can do, at least with decent lifetimes.
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Sedit
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I have taken this in account already and have noticed commercial ware is normally glazed more then likely to avoid the high cost a comercial
application would normally have to deal with in order to reach vitrification temperatures. I have built small gas kilns in the past and I have about 4
different freinds that rent out there very large(walk in size) high temperature gas kilns out for use so reaching the 2000 degrees C, give or take, in
order to sinter the entire form is not a problem.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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peach
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I doubt they own a patent on the idea of microwave heating.
If there are patents on it, it'll be for the precise mixes for absorbing microwaves and things like that.
Watson is, as usual, correct that high alumina is usually used for lining SiC ovens, and better, meaning that making things with it is going to be
serious pain.
In fact, the liners for furnaces (I think from looking at my iron ladle lining bricks) are more like small lumps and grit mixed with a binder and then
compressed into bricks, as opposed to truly glazed solids (which is what you'd need for chemistry, or it'll be porous).
I have also spent a gigantic amount of time wondering, can I make flasks and other bits of equipment in some easier and cheaper way to help spread the
awesomeness of science. Including some very odd ideas (like cutting the components from solid blocks using water jets, or machining them from PTFE).
The answer thus far is.... no. Blown is the way. And boro or quartz.
Edit: Saw you'd replied. Remember that if the glaze melts below the point of the bulk material, it may be defeating the point to use the bulk
material. People will also likely complain about it being opaque, so it depends what you're thinking of making.
[Edited on 13-1-2011 by peach]
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Sedit
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Opaqueness is impossible to do away with, trust me on that one because between my work and the help of my teacher we tryed to get the clearest most
light transparent form of Porceline we could achive accomplished thry the use of very pure Kaoline with fluxes such as Lithium carbonate and potassium
feldspares was still far from transparent. This was due to the unavoidable microbubbles always present in ceramics.
Make no mistake about it Peach ceramics have already estabilished themselfs in chemistry and although flask themselfs are not the greatest ideas for
transparency reasons you already stated retort variations would no doubt be very useful to a number of us for production of high temperature products.
Attached is just one of the catalogs for such line of products although I would wish to expand on there selection a bit if everything worked out. Im
going to head out now and go out to my supplier to get an idea of what materials I have to work with and prices right now.
[edit]
Sorry forgot to attach the file
[Edited on 13-1-2011 by Sedit]
Attachment: AdValue_brochure2010.pdf (556kB)
This file has been downloaded 742 times
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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peach
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Well we seem to have discovered a little more about sedit today, that he is knowledgeably potty. 
You clearly know more about this than I, and I agree that a retort made from something more heat resistant, but costing less than blown quartz, would
be a great thing.
I sez, pursue this idea.
In fact, I'd make a retort the first thing you try making, as I expect quite a few people here may want one (e.g. the hot sodium method).
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Eclectic
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Sedit, Can you make large pieces? maybe 1-2 cubic feet? I'd love to have what would be basically chimney liner ceramic tile, but made with a
mullite in cordierite matrix blend....Talc, Edgar's plastic kaolin, alumina...
This would be for use as furnace muffles, smaller ones for microwave heated retorts and furnaces.
[Edited on 1-13-2011 by Eclectic]
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Sedit
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I don't see why not since my kiln has more then enough capacity for such a thing although IIRC(its been years since I fired it up) its upper limits in
temperature where around 1500 degrees C and that was before I abused the hell out of the elements experimenting with crystal glazes which produce
awsome looking crystals of Zinc silicate on the surface of the ceramics. These require long soak periods of around 3 -4 hours at peak temperature and
a long slow cool down to grow the crystals so needless to say my elements are not what they use to be and I am not 100% sure the temperatures needed
to fire cordierite, The mullite however will be a staple in the construction of most things I want to produce because porcelain has a serious srinkage
problem and adding prefired and powdered mullite to the clay allows me to produce a higher quality material that wont suffer from the cracking and
thermal stresses that porcelain has.
I attempted to contact my supplier today to get some ideas of what my best route would be and went to speak with my old teacher who also was not
around so hopefully by the end of the weekend I will have some materials to work with and a little more direction as to what I need in order to
accomplish my goals.
However the basic answer to your question is yes. My kiln has a capacity of around 2.5*3 feet or so but im not 100% sure it will handle the desired
temperatures so if I need to rent a kiln then the temperatures and size is of no issue what so ever since I have seen them produce things like
200liter pots from there kilns and being gas fired they can reach very high temperatures.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Eclectic
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I think adding talc to the body to get 30-50% cordierite would help with sintering and consolidation to minimize porosity. Service temp would be
plenty high for anything heated with Kanthal A1. Cordierite has lower melting point than mullite, and even lower thermal expansion.
[Edited on 1-14-2011 by Eclectic]
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Sedit
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I think instead of getting into some complex formulation for your uses general everyday Fireclay would be more then enough. Given its fusion
temperature of <1600C Im considering making some test tiles out of this and it may do away with my need for blending various clays and chemicals by
just using a commercial clay for most of the products. Only for Mortar pestles and Tubing where there would be a fear of contamination would I really
concern myself with precise blending.
My main concern since its one of the few areas im slightly lacking in is gathering a complete understanding of how to control thermal stress. This is
a must because if not people would have to wait for hours for there furnaces to slowly heat to avoid cracking the tube. If ya'll are anything like me
I want that think to kick up in temperature as fast as possible and that all in all is my main goal at the moment. Fireclay seems like my best bet.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Eclectic
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yup....Cordierite is almost totally impervious to thermal stress....it's just a matter of adding enough powdered talc to the body to give some
magnesium.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/h3551x72u5216x41/
http://www.science.cmu.ac.th/journal-science/351_02PreparaPh...
http://www.google.com/search?q=cordierite+mullite+body&i... fficial&client=firefox-a
[Edited on 1-14-2011 by Eclectic]
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Sedit
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Do you have access to the springerlink Eclectic? Is so could you please post it?
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Eclectic
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No, but her is a google search that turns up more interesting links for formulating bodies using talc:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cordierite+mullite+body&i...fficial&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&q=cordierite+mullite+body+talc&
aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=cordierite+mullite+body+talc&pbx=1&fp=fd0f73886609171d
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peach
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Can you imagine how famous you'd be if you made a little retort that could make sodium or phosphorus in the kitchen microwave?
You'd be banging hollywood by the end of the week and rolling cigars with money.
[Edited on 14-1-2011 by peach]
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anotheronebitesthedust
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I always wanted a 4000ml tabletop buchner funnel. It seems like such a simple design and yet they sell for $1000-$2000.
It would be cool if you could make some 45/50 and 24/40 jointed vacuum buchner funnels.
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Gon
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I think that you could consult some of the archaic chemistry textbooks (like the ones we have in the SM library) and look at some of the older heating
appliances and apparatus that have been made obsolete today, but may be of interest to amateurs with limited budgets.
Stuff like crucible furnaces that use propane and forced air, or tube furnaces that are designed to use multiple bunsen burners.
There are techniques that have been used for centuries (and happen to be the fundamentals for the entire mining industry) that are simply out of reach
for experimenters because they cannot do a whole lot with a porcelain triangle and a ring stand.
Have you, or anyone you know, made iron from ore? It is an technique that is done regularly by prospectors and really should be something familiar to
schoolchildren.
It is a niche market, Sedit, but one that could be of interest to you given the tools and skills that you have.
When gons are outlawed, only outlaws will have gons.
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peach
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I have a 15l buchner flask, and no funnel for it. I could use it as a flower vase in the meantime I guess.
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ScienceSquirrel
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| Quote: Originally posted by peach |
I have a 15l buchner flask, and no funnel for it. I could use it as a flower vase in the meantime I guess. |
You could make a novelty bottle garden out of it. It would look nice in the corner of the lab
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ldanielrosa
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A microwave crucible for melting metal would be nice. This could involve a slew of related hardware:
a larger microwave transparent pot to hold the crucible and some thermal insulator
flask (cope and drag) for preheating or even melting right in the sprue!
reusable mold that can be melted in directly to consolidate scrap metals into uniform pieces (coin blanks, cubes, rods)
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peach
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You could look into the Fuseworks microwave kiln for that.
I think they're about $99 and come as a little kit.
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Sedit
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@Eclectic
I have requested the paper you linked to so I will hopefully be able to look thru it in the next few days.
| Quote: Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust | I always wanted a 4000ml tabletop buchner funnel. It seems like such a simple design and yet they sell for $1000-$2000.
It would be cool if you could make some 45/50 and 24/40 jointed vacuum buchner funnels. |
I was thinking about this earlier matter of fact although I can't say I thought about one that large it does seem like it would be a good thing to
make. Are you sure on that price range? That seems pretty high. I think with a little work that something like a Buchner funnel would sell ok on a
site like Ebay or what not so its no doubt within the realm of possibility.
| Quote: Originally posted by Gon | I think that you could consult some of the archaic chemistry textbooks (like the ones we have in the SM library) and look at some of the older heating
appliances and apparatus that have been made obsolete today, but may be of interest to amateurs with limited budgets.
Stuff like crucible furnaces that use propane and forced air, or tube furnaces that are designed to use multiple bunsen burners.
There are techniques that have been used for centuries (and happen to be the fundamentals for the entire mining industry) that are simply out of reach
for experimenters because they cannot do a whole lot with a porcelain triangle and a ring stand.
Have you, or anyone you know, made iron from ore? It is an technique that is done regularly by prospectors and really should be something familiar to
schoolchildren.
It is a niche market, Sedit, but one that could be of interest to you given the tools and skills that you have. |
I couldn't agree more Gon. A good example of various things to make would be in old chemistry books and even further to older alchemical text
since Im sure much of there equipment was ceramic in the first place. One prime example would be a book I have by Antoine Lavoisier that has many
detailed pictures of equipment in the appendex that would be useful.
There are many niche markets within this area but I also think there are some wide spread applications that could sell enough to keep a slow flow
income in the mean time like Mortar pestles, crucibles, and Buchner funnels like Anotheronebites talked about.
I do have a design concern that im running thru my head right now on how to make a retort as cheeply as possible since there is good odds that it
would be a use once type of thing due to slag. Disconnection of the top and bottom of a retort would work but when working with ceramics there is a
level of shrinkage on firing and in order to get a good fit the top and bottom of vessles should be fired together in place so that they shrink at the
same rate keeping a tight fit. Making the top and bottoms seperated would make it harder to obtain a good fit but im relatively confident with some
sort of form I should be able to make reproduceable sized fits between top and bottoms of retort pieces meaning one would only have to rebuy the
bottom slag destroyed part.
I have decided for the most part since its tax time to wait on fully attacking this project since I feel its something that deserves to be done right
and I would be able to use a small portion of my tax money to buy materials for this. I am however actively working on a very small kiln perhaps with
a 1ft square area or so in order to quickly and cheeply produce test tiles of materials. It consist of nothing more then fiberglass soaked in wet
kaoline and formed into a cylinder with a bottom portion having an electric oven element on the bottom. A simular design worked in the past in order
to achive high enough firing temperature with ease so a smaller version of it would be helpful. I will more then likely post plans if I get time. It
won't be able to vitrify the Pieces but it will be able to turn it to mullite without a problem.
Here is a couple of notes I have made on various low thermal expansion materials to work with. If you have any information on them feel free to add. I
would like to know the composition of astrositall but Im having trouble finding it. For now mullite with is a product of firing Kaoline is the main
focus but im still researching what I can.
coefficient of thermal expansion = expansion / change in temperature
Notes:
Thermal expansion generally decreases with increasing bond energy
Harder materials are more likely to have lower thermal expansion.
Thermal expansion of glasses is higher compared crystals[1]
References:
[1] A.K. Varshneya. Fundamentals of inorganic glasses. Society of Glass Technology, Sheffield, 682p. (2006).
Materials of low expansion:
MACOR is a machineable glass-ceramic
46% silica (SiO2)
17% magnesium (MgO)
16% aluminium oxide (Al2O3)
10% potassium (K2O)
7% boron (B2O3)
4% fluorine (F)
Sitall CO-115M (Astrositall)
Expansion = 0±1.5 x 10-7/°C in the temperature range -60 to 60°C
Pyrex
54% oxygen,
38% silicon,
4% boron,
3% sodium,
1% aluminium
less than 1% potassium.
Alumina
Coefficient of Thermal Expansion = 8.4
Sialon
Silicon Nitride and small percentage of alumina oxide.
Coefficient of Thermal Expansion = 3
Mullite( 3Al2O3•2SiO2)
The principle product of fired Kaoline
Coefficient of Thermal Expansion = 5.4
Aluminum Nitride
Coefficient of Thermal Expansion = 4.5
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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not_important
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sedit | ....
I do have a design concern that im running thru my head right now on how to make a retort as cheeply as possible since there is good odds that it
would be a use once type of thing due to slag. Disconnection of the top and bottom of a retort would work but when working with ceramics there is a
level of shrinkage on firing and in order to get a good fit the top and bottom of vessles should be fired together in place so that they shrink at the
same rate keeping a tight fit. Making the top and bottoms seperated would make it harder to obtain a good fit but im relatively confident with some
sort of form I should be able to make reproduceable sized fits between top and bottoms of retort pieces meaning one would only have to rebuy the
bottom slag destroyed part
....
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A design that worked for us in the past was to have a flange on the lower section of the container (retort) similar to a pipe flange, and a slightly
wider flange on the upper section, plus a slight lip that helps it stay centered on the lower. Fired face down, with a hifire round prop under the
upper one to retain the lip, and plenty of zircon/Al(OH)3 based kiln wash. After firing drizzle some SiC and water onto the lower section's flange,
place the upper onto it, and rotate away. Rinse and repeat until a good fit, then repeat with a finer grade of SiC. The flanges give lots of contact
area without issues of thermal expansion leading to frozen connections.
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