raistlin
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Adenosine Triphosphate
There are two goals of this thread. One, to determine if it would be possible for the human body to use Adenosine Triphosphate
(C<sub>10</sub>H<sub>16</sub>N<sub>5</sub>O<sub>13</sub>P<sub>3</sub> as a substitute for conventional food, durring times of shortage, or as a substitute
for food in places where it would not be feasible to carry ordinary food. Second, to come up with a method of producing raw ATP.
The idea of using direct use of ATP in the human body is similar to the 'cannibal theory'. Basically, cannibals would eat another of their
own kinda (just say human eats another human) They realized that it would give them 'extra' energy. It was simply because it is easier for
the body to break down proteins and use them if they arealready in a state useful to that organism. Anyways, my idea is the same, only using pure
ATP, or ATP in a form that is easily broken down by the body in hopes of preserving more energy for the body.
Ive done some research on the first part. It appears that there are some sites that sell ATP as a remedy for certain ailments, and the methods for
taking them are intramuscular injection, and sublingual (under the tounge) absorbtion. It also says that you should not swallow the ATP, but Im
assuming that this may be because of the possibility of it passing directly through the body. So, in an effort to prevent this, would it be possible
to 'lock' the ATP in a sucrose polymer? That takes away from the thought of direct ingestion, but sucrose is easily broken down by the
body, so I dont see that it would cause too much of a drop in energy transfer..
For the second part, Im not too totally sure.. Im not exactly a chemistry whiz, so this is where I really need input. Im honestly clueless on this
part. I know that that its basically a format like this for the ATP- Adenine + Phosphate group + energy(electrical possibly?) ---> ATP
EDIT-
As soon as I figure out how to do so, Ill add a picture of the chemical format of ATP.
[Edited on 20-1-2004 by raistlin]
\"To ignite, or not to ignite, that is the question.\"
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Al Koholic
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As far as ingesting ATP and actually reaping energetic benefits from it....well lets say I'm far from holding my breath.
Firstly, ingested ATP should be destroyed by conditions in the stomach as it is easily hydrolysed especially in acid conditions. Individual ATP
molecules within a cell are not particularly long-lived, being constantly broken down (for a purpose) and reformed. I have a lot of trouble believing
that even if it were possible to ingest ATP and have it maintain its structure through some modification, that it would be admitted to the internal
workings of a given cell that could use it. The membrane would probably block the ATP from entering but could perhaps, respond to the ATP breakdown
products (ie: ADP primarily) and trigger some sort of response. This type of feedback is very common in cellular metabolism and presenting high
levels of ADP to cells could trigger increased metabolism (glycolysis) as you might trick the body into thinking that ATP levels are dropping.
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ziqquratu
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As Al has said, the main reason that ATP can't be taken by swallowing it is that the acid environment in the stomach would hydrolyse it,
rendering it useless for your purposes.
I think that the closest thing you can get to ATP for taking orally is creatine phosphate. As you may know, our tissues store creatine phosphate as
the first line of energy production... if memory serves, it can be hydrolysed in exactly the same way as ATP to provide energy. Creatine is generally
consumed by the cells before glycolysis begins. It can be taken orally (whether because it isnt as easily hydrolysed or because it reforms the
phosphate after absorption into cells i'm not sure).
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chemoleo
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I agree with both what Ziqquratu and Al Koholic said.
ATP, being an extremely polar molecule, would be hard pressed to move across unpolar (remember they are made of lipids) cell membranes, even if it did
happen to enter intercellular spaces (i.e. via intramuscular injection - the oral route is unlikely to work for the reasons mentioned above). For this
purpose there would have to be some kind of ATP-transport channel on the outer membrane of a cell. I doubt one exists as all the ATP is produced
intracellularly, in the mitochondria. Surely there are some processes outside the cell that require ATP, and they will get ATP from the inside of a
cell, again via an ATP channel or so. But there is no need for a reverse process however.
On the synthesis of ATP - it requires adenosine monophosphate or diphosphate (AMP or ADP). In cells, Adenylate kinase converts AMP to ADP, and the
energy conversion system inside the mitochondria convert ADP + Pi to ATP. I am sure there are classical chemical routes to the synthesis of ATP, but I
should think they are very expensive, bacterial sources are cheaper (just for shits and giggles, Sigma sells ATP for 2000$/kg - and this is the lowest
possible grade).
Creatinephosphate is a much more likely candidate for a cheap energy donor. I happen to remember that the immediate amount of ATP at any given time
lasts you to move (that is, physical movement involving muscular contraction) 3 (!!) seconds. The energy metabolism (conversion of glucose to energy
and H2O/CO2) takes considerably longer to get turned on, however. Essentially, that would mean, after three seconds you would be dead if you suddenly
started to get up and run.
This is where creatine phosphate comes in- it is a molecule that *reversibly* accepts or releases a phosphate group. Guess where the phosphate comes
from? From ATP of course. ATP is thereby converted to ADP. Creatine phosphate (CP) is accumulated during periods of inactivity, if surplus creatine
and surplus ATP is present.
Creatine phosphate works by donating the phosphate group to ADP, which then form creatinine and ATP. ATP is then used for muscular activity.
Anyway, I think you can buy CP in certain shops, and indeed it is used as an energy booster.
Oh, while the internal ATP lasts you 3 seconds, CP lasts you several minutes. This is enough time for the mitochondria to start producing increased
amounts of ATP, hence you DONT die, but you survive and can keep running
By the way, creatine has quite an interesting structure - it is a derivative of guanidine (H2N-C(NH2+)-NH2). There is an N-linked [CH2-COO-] and CH3
on the NH2 (it is a zwitterion).
Makes me wonder whether you could obtain guanidine from it... which be be of interest in the Energetic Materials Section
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
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guaguanco
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| Quote: | Originally posted by raistlin
There are two goals of this thread. One, to determine if it would be possible for the human body to use Adenosine Triphosphate
(C<sub>10</sub>H<sub>16</sub>N<sub>5</sub>O<sub>13</sub>P<sub>3</sub> as a substitute for conventional food, durring times of shortage, or as a substitute
for food in places where it would not be feasible to carry ordinary food.
[Edited on 20-1-2004 by raistlin] |
Sorry, not possible.
As others have pointed out, ATP is too fragile to survive the digestive system.
And food contains things like proteins, lipids and minerals. The body can't function without any of these.
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unionised
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While ATP might just serve as a source of energy and phosphate for the body, cola is nicer and cheaper.
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Hermes_Trismegistus
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Hmmmmm???
| Quote: | Originally posted by guaguanco
| Quote: | Originally posted by raistlin
There are two goals of this thread. One, to determine if it would be possible for the human body to use Adenosine Triphosphate
(C<sub>10</sub>H<sub>16</sub>N<sub>5</sub>O<sub>13</sub>P<sub>3</sub> as a substitute for conventional food, durring times of shortage, or as a substitute
for food in places where it would not be feasible to carry ordinary food.
[Edited on 20-1-2004 by raistlin] |
Sorry, not possible.
As others have pointed out, ATP is too fragile to survive the digestive system.
And food contains things like proteins, lipids and minerals. The body can't function without any of these. |
Perhaps feasible as a short term,high power substitute.
Yes, it is too delicate to survive digestive system, but not intravenous delivery.
Perhaps it might be a good thing to use where immediate delivery of instant energy was needed (combat or other emergency situations like medical
emergencies). There are situations where it would be a great benefit to bypass the digestive system completely, and get as far down the Krebbs cycle
as possible.
For instance modern surgeries now often run for 10-15 plus hours, and one limiting factor to new surgeries is physician fatigue. Statistics have
shown us that switching surgeons out mid-surgery is NOT a good idea. Surgery is definitely not a tag-team sport.
However, having your sawbones trembling and twitching from fatigue is bad. Having him stop to eat a sandwich is equally undesireable, eating diverts
blood sugar to the stomach and fogs the brain for a period of time.
Perhaps in future surgeries, the nurses will have to refill two I.V.'s. One for the patient and one for the Surgeon.
Also, sustained combat is extremely draining. If in a firefight, he could feed one bag of chem's to juice him up. If on night-sentry duty he
could turn on the switch to drip a little stims into his blood.
If he got hit, he could press a panic button on his dispensor to flood his system with plasma, painkillers and bloodclotting agents.
We have diabetics walking around with automatic insulin dispensors.....so why not ???
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win: you\'re still retarded.
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raistlin
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I realize that the ATP by oral intake is not possible, it should still be feasible through IV. It is not the same as the insulin that a diabetic
injects, but if Im not mistaken isnt insulin have a base of ATP within it? My great aunt is diabetic and thats the way she described it to me so Im
not totally sure. But if that is the case, why is it not possible to use direct ATP? Im not about to argue with you chemoleo, but isnt ATP expelled
from the cells when there is a too large a store of it, but brought back into the cell when a sudden spike in ATP levels is detected? If that was the
case, the ATP should be able to function as a direct stimulant, giving added energy, even if its short lived, to a person. Granted, there are other
things that would be much more useful, but a constant supply of ATP, as was mentoined by Hermes_Trismegistus, in a IV drip set-up would give a small
ammount of energy which would make at least *some* difference in certain situations...
And I concede... my idea was rather badly thought out... lol.
\"To ignite, or not to ignite, that is the question.\"
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ziqquratu
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Coincidentally, I was reading a relatively modern New Scientist (December '03, I think...). Anyway, it was talking about a new type of food
additive, which it dubbed a "bitter blocker" (an obvious play on the "beta blocker" class of drugs  ). This bitter blocker, when added in small amounts to food, blocks our bitter taste
receptors, masking the bitterness. Very useful for the food industry, as processing tends to make food bitter, and they add sugar, salt, fat to mask
that... I wonder if that explains McDonalds food...
Anyway, this isn't as rambling as it seems, just giving background. This bitter blocker is none other than good old adenosine monophosphate, or
AMP. The fun thing is, this applicaiton is going to make AMP as common as table salt, if not quite as cheap. Anyway, if one wanted to experiment,
this would be an ideal starting compound. I was thinking of ways to selectively phosphorylate adenosine, but couldn't come up with anything that
wouldn't react with all the other hydroxyls (and possibly amines) present in the molecule. It should, however, be much easier to form ADP and
then ATP by selectively reacting with the phosphate group already present in AMP. Something to think about, anyway!
But on the problems, as chemoleo mentioned, is that ATP is unlikely to be taken up by cells and would thus be floating around useless in the
extracellular fluid. This would pretty much prove the downfall of your idea, I'm afraid.
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chemoleo
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Ziqqaratu, that's very interesting. Do you remember the mechanism of it's action? Maybe it would be wise to start a thread on
'Biochemistry on Taste receptors' (to avoid getting off topic too much), as I have a bit to contribute on how hot chilli peppers work, or
aspartame, or menthol... so feel free to make a thread on the blockage of bitter rececptors by AMP (with a general title). I will then add relevant
bits
hermes & raistlin - I just quote this:
ATP, being an extremely polar molecule, would be hard pressed to move across unpolar (remember they are made of lipids) cell membranes, even if it did
happen to enter intercellular spaces (i.e. via intramuscular injection - the oral route is unlikely to work for the reasons mentioned above). For this
purpose there would have to be some kind of ATP-transport channel on the outer membrane of a cell. I doubt one exists as all the ATP is produced
intracellularly, in the mitochondria. Surely there are some processes outside the cell that require ATP, and they will get ATP from the inside of a
cell, again via an ATP channel or so. But there is no need for a reverse process however.
--> There is no route for ATP to enter the cell, at least not to my knowledge. I can't see the physiological need for it either. Hence no IV
injections of ATP - they wouldnt do much good. Creatine phosphate would be much better anyhow as it is used in muscle cells directly, to *produce*
ATP! By the way, this is how the cell gets rid of *surplus* ATP, by using it to A) make fatty acids for your belly and B) shortterm, for creatine
phosphate . It is not shufflled outside the cell, no way. if anything, it is
shuffled from the mitochondria to the cytoplasm, which is still inside the cell. Also, if there is a surplus of ATP, that means there is a lack of
AMP/ADP, which in turn causes downregulation of the citric acid cycle etc. This way the system stops producing surplus after a while.
Ziqqaratu - by the way the best way to produce AMP will be with biochemical methods, i.e. using the required enzymes and phosphate donors.
As you saw from the Sigma quote on ATP, it is from a bacterial source - simply because it is a lot easier to get this way!
PS Insulin is in no way related to ATP. Insulin is a protein, while ATP isnt. When I get back from work, I think I will post some structures
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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ziqquratu
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chemo, that's not a bad idea, I'll try and find the article online and kick of a new thread in the next few days (I'm gonna be too busy drinking way too much for the next day or two to even
think about anything scientific )
And, of course, biochemical synthesis is pretty much the only way to go, and is almost certainly how it will be done commercially... the comments on
chemical synthesis were just for interest sake. I was going to put in something about a biosynthesis, but at the time I really couldn't be
bothered. Suffice it to say that, unless you were planning on making a significant amount, setting up a bioreactor would not be worthwhile... and
it'd be difficult to get exactly right even if you did try (although the literature about it is bound to be out there...). My initial guess
would be that bacteria would be engineered to produce the required enzyme (adenosine phosphorylase or something to that effect... molecular biologists
aren't too creative when it comes to naming their enzymes) and are engineered to either secrete it or the enzyme is extracted. Either way,
it'd then be placed in a flask with adenosine and something like potassium hydrogen phosphate as a phosphate donor. From there the theory is
pretty simple, although the conditions (Temp., pH, concentrations, etc.) would need to be very specific and tightly controlled.
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gil
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Essential aminoacid:maybe they are an "essence"? Don't think so.
Sport medicine:Cure a flu playing ping pong?
Krebb cycle: famous brand velociferi.vaious model for men women kids.Now also bonobos&chimps.
Placebo effect : People doing silly thinks after reading autor posting.
2008 olimpyade:comitee crisis.ATP undetectable.........And batboy IS Elvis.drinkin lemon Juice.
[Edited on 15-1-2007 by gil]
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chemoleo
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Gil What the heck are you talking about?
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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gil
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good evening Man.
I meant:how can one expect to survive on ATP.Lack of ESSENTIAL nutrients will outweight any ipotetical extra energy,which the cannibals tought were
gaining from consuming the spirit of....together whith
body/meal.Sort of placebo. Also tryed point out over 50 years of serius science investigating atlete performance,influence of nutrients and every
short cut possibile to gain an edge on competition,done by
so many people in so many country,certainly would came to realize if is a tangible way.Krebb cycle,or citric acid cycle is A source of energy in the
human body,to sustain muscle during short outburst requiring extra metabolic energy.specifically over 5-10 sec to 90-120 sec.Is not involved in
shorter ,more explosive situation,like powerlifting, or disc for exmpl.,nor in aerobic discipline were fat and glycogen ,stored in mucle tissue and
liver account for most of the body demand,under high oxigen consumption.
I took ATP oral tablets 1991.prescription.I think was used for alcoholics but not sure now.I took it to help
substain heavy training but whith supplement is like : take the lot,something will work.ATP wasn't.
Where is England Germany?Under sea level mostly?
[Edited on 15-1-2007 by gil]
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roamingnome
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| Quote: |
Essential aminoacid:maybe they are an "essence"? Don't think so.
Sport medicine:Cure a flu playing ping pong?
Krebb cycle: famous brand velociferi.vaious model for men women kids.Now also bonobos&chimps.
Placebo effect : People doing silly thinks after reading autor posting.
2008 olimpyade:comitee crisis.ATP undetectable.........And batboy IS Elvis.drinkin lemon Juice. |
maybye this is not my place
bringing back an old thread is ok and i dont think every post has to be a pictorial treatsy
but this place is called ScienceMadness
not just madness, Gil , and trust me i know madness and if your doing this on purpose thats wrong, if your just weird and learning english then
fine.
im glad you finally got hooked up with qualudes and all, but maybye you should ask for the pasword to whimsy
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Elawr
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ATP is an energy transfer device, not a means store substantials amount of energy. Triglycerides in adipose tissue and glycogen in our muscles and
liver make up most of our stored fuel supplies. When we burn these fuels either aerobically or anaerobically, the released energy drives the
phosphorylation of ADP to relatively unstable ATP. ATP is how our cells use our metabolic energy to actually do stuff - like drive the
molecular pumps that maintain the Na+/K+ gradient across our cell membranes, or the ratcheting interaction between myosin and actin within a
contracting muscle fiber. If the mitochondria represent the power plant of the cell, then ADP/ATP could be seen as the whole energy distribution
and transfer infrastructure. Look it up in Wikipedia.
[Edited on 15-1-2007 by Elawr]
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gil
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I'm not a chemist.I'm here to learn chem .never took qualuude,but if someone think I'm on it by reflessife reasoning,surely they took them or they are
closely associate whit users.What is suggesting I'm here to learn english?Do you presume it?Are you?
Old tread make the most of 8 page in biochemistry section.Some are locked.Remaining are not.
I have 8 years study.5 primary 3 secondary.That's it.Compulsory,finish.First year college:drop off.
English ISN'T my mother tongue.Grammatic is Dead.All the language are evolving.So is english ,my mother tongue and most of the remaining.Batboy is
Elvis.He survive of Lemon Juice,That's why he fly.Extra ATP.
Elawr (tanks)surely Has better Autorityon the matter.All this is THEORY.Proof are in vitro or partial.Lactic acid is involved too.25 Y. ago was
responsabile of muscle pain.Nowadays is involved in energy realase.25Y
from now...who know.All theory.
Autority.Rational reasoning.Experience. 3 tools helping us understand.Only one teaching us the truth.
Language change.;Theory change.(mainly when opposer of new idea die or retire,and a new generation of scientist more open/familiar whith new idea take
over).teaching change.book change.wiki change.
Is Earth the centre of the universe?NO! or YES! Truth is relative and is changing. And is not.Truth is ONE.
Can one survive of citric acid?Get extra energy out of it ALONE?
Essential nutrients:rose or citrus smelling hamburger.
sport medicine;football suppositories.
Krebb cicle:chewing gum khoser
Placebo effect;new pop craze
OLimpyc commitee liberalize all doping to even out superhuman performance of new ATP abusers
I'm not a chemist.I'm here to learn .This is my contribution to the forum.
PS:Weird? Giving where it's caming from,I'll take it as a compliment.
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Ozone
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mmmmmK.
Good evening, friends, just brainstorming:
It is agreed that ATP is, by design, a facile molecule (to accomodate *very*rapid kinetics). Hydrolytic conditions are a no-no.
I-V delivery seems feasible, but this route is usually avoided due to a general aversion to needles.
So, what we would be addressing is really an issue of drug delivery rather than potential efficacy (we know ATP works if it can be delivered
properly).
The thought of using sucrose is not *entirely* a bad idea. Glucose is metabolized with ultimate prejudice and would thus be a reasonable vehicle (the
body does not waste time and energy to cleave the sucrose first). Unfortunately, the trick would be a selective o-phosporylation to a position, say,
3,4 or 6 (which is very tricky) that does not interfere directly with the opening of the cyclic hemiacetal (6 is most likely to cause steric problems
with enzymes).
Perhaps the further modification of the glucose molecule, say, alkyloxy capping, might help get the stuff across cellular membranes.
Maybe a TP tagged monoclonal Ab that homes in on mitochondria?
Another route may include the more conventional application of some oligosaccharide-TP.
Along the same lines, how about pyruvate delivered to minimize the time required to re-establish equilibrium with lactate in fatigued muscles?
I like the "Panic Button" concept,
O3
[Edited on 15-1-2007 by Ozone]
-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
--Albert Einstein
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The_Davster
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We talked about this in my biochemistry course, how athletes inject ATP to increase their abilities. What the proff said was that it really did not
do much if anything, that a bunch of regulated bio-synthetic pathways(all of which I forget) reduced the ATP present quickly. Could work on some sort
of ATP IV drip system though...
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Ozone
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Or, perhaps, we could try a vehicle that can "protect" it (ATP) until some specific condition is met? Maybe the vehicle could remain behind at the
cellular membrane?
Your sitting on a Gold-Mine, Trebeck!
the Pen is mightier,
O3
-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
--Albert Einstein
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gil
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And what would be all that absimilation mumbling be for? If the Krebs Cycle is taken for what is it: metabolic energy productionfor muscle
fibre,mainly white ones, by adding esogenus ATP,via buccal,parenteral,intravenous orany other delivery in this circle would create an imbalance
whithin,quikly
compensated for. that's how ATP would get lost in the process.It's a cycle .give energy for a fraction of a second or so.this machine has long
evolution behind.Many tryed ,no one had success.It is possible,but no directly.Must go around it,improve other co-factors,then you may get full
theorical potential (of Krebs c.)
Never mind try living out of it alone.
O3 ,your reasoning look like your aritmetics.My personal opinion. Vale? Venga!!
[Edited on 15-1-2007 by gil]
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