IgnorantlyIntelligent
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Understanding detonation alittle better
I was wondering if there is a difference between putting presure on something or having an actual detonator. Take AN/Soy for instance, it can be
detonated with only 2g of AP(Ive heard on E&W). 2g of AP doesnt have any more force than a hard blow from a hammer on an anvil so does that mean
that a blow from a hammer on the AN/Soy would be the same? Does the fact that there is an actual "wave" when using a detonator matter? The
reason I am wondering is because I have tried detonating AN based explosives using an anvil and a sledge hammer with no success. This doesnt make me
very confident that my detonator/booster will work.(50g of lead syphnate)
Any info would be great.
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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AngelEyes
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As I understand it, a detonation wave (as provided by a detonator) is produced when a substance burns faster than the speed of sound. This det wave
then passes through the secondary HE. As it does so it 'busts open' the molecules of the secondary HE. Those busted molecules immediately
recombine into gaseous products (CO<sub>2</sub>, N<sub>2</sub> etc) and in doing so help to propogate the det wave. Whacking
something with a hammer doesn't create a supersonic shockwave and so won't cause any secondary HE's to explode. Primaries, however, can
be shocked into detonating and providing the supersonic shock wave needed.
Basically, your hammer blow isn't providing anywhere near the short, sharp shock needed to detonate secondaries.
Feel free to correct me though, I am no expert.
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IgnorantlyIntelligent
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I use Lead Styphnate in my detonators and it is in a steel detonater container(plumbing pipe w/caps) My detonaters are huge(about 50g of LS/NC) and
play the role of the booster aswell. Does having a steel container hinder that shockwave apon detonation? If the steel only bursts out one side and it
detonates the ANFO on that side, will the wave from the ANFO detonate the rest of the ANFO or will i have an incomplete det? The 2lbs of ANFO will be
burried under dirt to the brim of the bucket.
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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AngelEyes
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iirc you want to have the walls of the detonator as thin as you can get. Your primary should be able to undergo DDT (deflagration to detonation
transition) with minimal confinement. Drinking straws are good, apparently.
That way you don't get the issue of 'side detonation' or any of that. I would imagine, though, that the shock wave will set off most
of your AN mix but I can't be sure. You want maximum confinement of the main charge rather than of the det.
All of the above is gleaned from reading rather than experience so don't just take my word for it. I have never, and this is actually true, made
dets or played with any AN mixtures so I don't claim to be an authority.
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tom haggen
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Durning the detonation of a high explosive the molecules break apart at a microscopic level. You can not break a molecule apart with a hammer. Your
handle is goofy man.
[Edited on 21-1-2004 by tom haggen]
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Theoretic
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Hmmm... ...so why, in almost every article about high explosive compounds I meet there's information how heavy a load at what height has to fall
on it to detonate it?
You cannot break A molecule apart with a hammer, but you can break MOLECULES apart with a hammer. The shock just rips them apart.
Sorry, YOUR handle is goofy.
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AngelEyes
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Depends upon whch HE you are referring to.
Some will go with a 2kg weight from just a few inches whereas others require a significantly higher drop.
I saw a programme on BBC2 last week where they dropped an anvil onto half a kg of TNT from about 20 metres...and it just turned to dust. No explosion
or anything. They also put a half kg of TNT into a fire...it just burned.
A hammer will provide enough shock for some HE but not all. Stuff like AN (which iirc is the most insensitive HE around) or TNT just isn't going
to go up when you bash it (but something like NG almost certainly would). And why would you want it to? Can you imagine a demo team ready to blow a
building - they get the 'all clear' and a team of guys go into the building with sledgehammers and start whacking all the charges... lol.
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tom haggen
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In sensitive HE the blow of a hammer just initiates the collision of individual molcules
causing them to break apart? The hammer doesn't actually break them apart, so part of what I said was true.
You half to admit ingnorantlyintelligent is a goofy handle.
[Edited on 21-1-2004 by tom haggen]
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Mumbles
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I've always understood that the crystal structure shattered under force/pressure causing whatever compound you may have to detonate.
Might you have a reference to back up what you're saying? Molecules are always bumping into each other(unless at absolute zero) so do they just
bump harder or faster?
And no I don't "half" to admit it is a goofy handle.
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Geomancer
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I'm afraid I can't cite a source, but I'm pretty sure that it has now been established that detonation is a thermal process, i. e. the
detonation wave compresses and therefore heats the material which then burns normally. I think that the early work was dome at one of the US national
labs. All I could find with a brief web search was that detonation waves in PBX-type materials propagate primarily by compression heating at
discontinuities in the material, causing "hot spots" that initiate the burning behind the detonation front.
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IgnorantlyIntelligent
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Well if it detonates from compression, and the heat produced by the compression, then why does a sledge hammer not work like a detonater?
What I'm asking is, is there any none physical step in a detonation. By that I mean what things other than compression(impact), and the heat
caused by compression, detonate an HE. Is there an unseen chemical proccess undergoing? Like free atoms slaming into and bonding with the HE, or
something like that?
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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AngelEyes
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Dets generate millions of pounds per square inch of pressure very quickly and in an extremely localised area. A sledgehammer will not get anywhere
near that and the pressure it does generate will be spread over a wider area. Well, that's my theory anyway.
I think we may need Philou, or another extremely knowledgeable and experienced person, to shed a little more light here.
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IgnorantlyIntelligent
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Well I'm convinced a sledge hammer doesn't create enough pressure or heat and certainly not as much as a booster charge.
The main reason I made this thread was because I have recently been trying(in my dreams of course) to detonate different AN based mixtures. ANFO,
AN/WAX, AN/Soy, AN,Acetone. None of these detonated fromt he hammer. I only had a chance to test ANFO and AN/Acetone with actual dets.
I guess I'll just have to get(make) some ammonia dynamite for my big ANFO charges.
Goofy handle........so you've used my sledge hammer? 
thanks everyone
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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