gregxy
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Safety with energetic materials
Energetic materials are interesting and fun to learn about however they are very dangerous and serious injuries can result if you are not careful and
possibly even if you are careful. Even chemists with years of experience have been injured working with energetics.
Recognize that creating or possesing energetic materials is against the law in the USA and many other nations. Even if you have "good intentions", law
enforcement and your community in general will not understand this. If you "get caught" even doing harmless experiments you could go to jail or in the
least spend thousands of dollars in legal fees. You could end up branded as a terrorist which will ruin the rest of you life.
Suggestions for safety:
1. Prepare only small quantities, 1 gram is all that is needed to investigate the properties of an energetic. Quantities as small as 100mg (1/2 asprin
tablet) of certain primary explosives are enough to remove your fingers.
2. Avoid hard containers (metal glass etc.). In the event of an explosion the container will shatter and the fragments can be propelled at the speed
of a bullet.
3. Sensitive materials (primaries) can be set off by a flame, friction, static electricity or even by internal stress in the material. They can remain
sensitive even when wet or under water.
4. The reactions used to prepare certain energetics are unstable and can "run away". This means that the heat builds up until the reactants ignite and
an explosion
could occur. This is less likely to happen when working with small quantities. Learn about what you are doing and use sufficient cooling and stirring
method. Add reactants slowly.
5. Work behind a safety shield, a piece of 1/2 think lexan works well.
6. Contaminated energetics may decompose and explode spontantously. The risk increases with larger amounts. Do not store them, use them or dispose of
them right away.
7. When preparing energetic mixtures, grind each ingredient separately and then gently mix the powders using a soft object.
Some definitions:
Detonate: Reaction propagates via mechanical shock wave at the velocity of sound in the material (2000-8000M/sec). Force generated can punch holes
through metal plates simply by placing a block of the energetic in the open on the plate.
Deflagrate (burn): Reaction propagates via heat conducton or convection at up to several meters/second. Negligable force produced without strong
containement.
Primary: Detonates from flame, friction or shock. Most sensitive and dangerous class! Some examples HMTD acetone peroxide, mercury fulminate, sliver
acetelyde, chlorate with phospherous, nitrogen trioidide.
Secondary: Detonated from shock, often dangerous to prepare. Examples in decreasing sensitivity: Nitroglycerine, ETN, PETN, nitrocelulose, RDX,
picric acid, TNT, amonium nitrate and oil.
Low explosive: These are a good place to start, they only burn and will not explode unless placed in a sealed container, black powder, thermite, smoke
mixtures.
Disclamer: I gave this stuff up years ago. The legal risk in the post 911 environment is too great.
edit added more.
[Edited on 4-3-2010 by gregxy]
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User
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Sorry but what is your point, i dont really understand.
Would you like to see safety suggestions?
What a fine day for chemistry this is.
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gregxy
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I'll bet if you checked into it you would find the majority of new people visiting this forum are teenage boys. My point is to give them some idea of
the risks involved and suggestions on how to avoid getting hurt.
So if you have additional safety suggestions please make them here.
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Melgar
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I think he's just trying to give advice, and didn't have an appropriate thread to post it in. There's some stuff I hadn't thought of, like keeping
the chemicals in plastic containers instead of glass, since that won't produce shrapnel. Small amounts is a good idea too, not only because it has
less explosive power, but because in a nitration reaction you can cool a small container down more quickly than a large one.
I had an accident a while back where I made nitrogen triiodide, but left the beaker in the living room and forgot about it. It dried out a lot of the
way, and then I saw it so I carefully added ammonia to it until it wasn't dry anymore. I knew that it wasn't really sensitive until it dried out, so
I went to mix it up to wet the whole mixture. That was the dumb move, especially given that it was in the middle of my brother's living room. Yep,
the crystallized stuff at the bottom exploded, sending a bunch of ammonia into my face and all over the ceiling. I stumbled into the bathroom and
washed my eyes out, and thankfully I had no permanent injuries. Once I realized that, there was just the little matter of bits of nitrogen triiodide
all over the living room, and iodine stains everywhere. There were snaps and pops every time someone walked through there. I had to wait a week to
get the sodium thiosulfate to clean them with, then it was a simple matter of wetting each stain with a solution of that stuff, then running an iron
over it to heat it and promote the reaction, which turns iodine into a colorless iodide.
Another time, I was melting sodium hydroxide in a test tube and had to stop in the middle. At this time I wasn't aware of the corrosive nature of
sodium hydroxide on glass, but that actually didn't factor into my stupid mistake. See, it turns out that sodium hydroxide is hygroscopic, and
heating it drives off the water. Well, not all of the water was driven out when I stopped in the middle. When I resumed, it had solidified, and the
stuff at the bottom melted first. Then the water that was trapped within the stuff on the bottom began to boil before the stuff on the top had
melted. Well, you can probably imagine the danger posed by an exploding test tube of sodium hydroxide. Thankfully I was wearing protective gear, and
only got a tiny bit of it on my right cheek.
I think it may be helpful if anyone wants to post stupid mistakes they made, since a lot of times the lab safety guidelines can be ridiculously
excessive, to the point that many of us (for whom the danger of chemistry is part of its attraction) tune it out. But actual anecdotes can give
others a good idea of where the real dangers lie.
One tragic accident I remember hearing about was when a guy was going to cut an old steel barrel in half with a welder. Well, he didn't realize that
the barrel was last used to store gasoline, and when the mix of air and gasoline vapors touched molten steel, it exploded and killed him.
I am curious about the explosiveness of ETN. So far, the only way I've been able to get it to explode is by wrapping it in foil and heating it a lot.
I'm not sure if this counts as an actual detonation explosion though. When I heat it unconfined, it just starts to boil then shoots up a jet of
flame and disappears. I've heard that firecrackers can be made a lot more powerful by dipping them in nitroglycerine, but I'm not sure if this is
true. If so, could that work to detonate something more powerful? Or would that be incredibly stupid?
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | I've heard that firecrackers can be made a lot more powerful by dipping them in nitroglycerine, but I'm not sure if this is true. If so, could that
work to detonate something more powerful? Or would that be incredibly stupid? |
A lot of things from Fester's KIE are incredibly stupid!
The nitro-soaked cracker is but one example. . .
The nitro can contact the fuse and it may likely be drawn along its length by a capillary action so that when the fuse is lit it burns much more
quickly than normal, setting off the cracker before you have time throw it or retreat to safety.
The fulminating flash-powder will most likely detonate the nitro and several ml may have been absorbed into the cardboard.
When it goes off you really should be several metres away.
[Edited on 4-3-2010 by hissingnoise]
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quicksilver
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+ 1 (hissingnoise )
The guy's name is Steve Procter I think. He's not a bad fellow; he just didn't think about the ramifications of such a book. The det stuff in the back
made me pissed off. AP in a pipe....my Heavens, whata' dumb thing! And the deal is, he KNOWS that his topic demands safety agenda as a 1st priority.
Safety stuff:
8.) Do NOT sniff into a container. Open the container and wave your hand to brush odors that from from the material. Sniffing directly into a
container is a great way to snort up some seriously toxic materiel. Much powdered material (azides!) can exist in single micron particulates. Gloves
should always be worn, even to straighten out a shelf.
{There was a thing in the news about some gal who died from some mercuric salt (methyl mercury I think) leeching THROUGH a latex glove! Nytril gloves
cost so little and can really help. There is a reason WHY lab coats are worn: not to look like you're a chemist, but to keep from wearing a splash of
benzene all over your chest}
9.) KEEP protective material close to the lab or supply of chemicals so that putting them on becomes reflexive habit. Full face shields are a better
idea for some people than simple eye goggles. No one likes a nose-less boyfriend. Plus they protect nose and mouth from contaminants. The type that
wood workers use is very impact resistant.
10.) Use Teflon tape on threaded containers that may hold friction sensitive materials: do NOT use glass or even rubber stoppers. No need to play
Hercules with the container top either.
11.) UNDERSTAND what containers and surrounding attract and eliminate static. There ARE methods to almost eliminate static. Remind yourself EACH time
to ground and discharge yourself before touching or opening things.
12.) Grinding to make smaller any material that may become contaminated is foolish. Buy two mortar & pistils / devote one to certain items such as
fuels and reducing agents; learn to keep ball mills & most everything spotlessly clean.
13.) Turn OFF the cell phones or distractions when doing anything that may get serious. Devote your concentration to your endeavor; even listening to
certain music if it "rocks you" may pose a problem. "Replay" in your head what you are doing and where the water, fire extinguisher, etc are BEFORE
you begin.
14.) Ask yourself the dreaded question of "what's the worst that can go wrong" BEFORE you start something. It will route you to doing what is
productive & safety oriented. An explosion lessens it's damage the further away from flesh it is. Carrying a cap in your pocket, 2" away from your
penis is not the best place to keep it if you want to keep it.
The above are opinions. Progress can always be made with safety. I go by a little rule: IF you are asking yourself "is something a stupid idea: it is.
[Edited on 5-3-2010 by quicksilver]
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Rosco Bodine
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Quote: Originally posted by gregxy  |
Recognize that creating or possesing energetic materials is against the law in the USA and many other nations. |
Please identify the statute citation.
| Quote: |
Disclamer: I gave this stuff up years ago. The legal risk in the post 911 environment is too great.
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What "stuff" exactly are you talking about, science experiments? I have noticed in the "post 911 environment"
there are assholes everywhere now who use 911 as an excuse for being worse assholes than they were before. There is also a bumper crop of new assholes
who are apostates from the non-asshole identity which was theirs before 911. They were probably latent lurker assholes simply waiting to come out of
the closet and express being all the asshole they could be when the time seemed right for this, and 911 was all the excuse they needed. Yes 911 was
the big coming out party for assholes everywhere. Is there life beyond being an asshole, is it just a step along the way, or is being an asshole all
there is ?
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | And the deal is, he KNOWS that his topic demands safety agenda as a 1st priority. |
His knowing it makes it unforgivable though - and then some of the stuff on nitrogen triiodide was just plain ludicrous.
And when you read his 'bit' on RDX you just knew he'd never even seen the stuff, let alone prepared it.
He's also BTW, been called Preston and Preisler but many people call him other things.
[Edited on 5-3-2010 by hissingnoise]
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gregxy
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Concerning the legal aspects, here are the docs from the ATF: http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5400-7.pdf
I'm not a lawyer, but from what I can tell if the compound can explode it's an explosive. Possesion or manufacture without a permit can result in 1
year in jail or a $10k fine. I don't see anything on minimum quantities other than exceptions for black powder and model rocket motors.
People are terrified of anything "chemical". If the cops come to investigate the pops and bangs that your neighbor reported and find a bunch of brown
bottles with long names on them in your garage you could be in a lot of trouble.
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franklyn
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Everyone has at least one , so I won't be the first to cast stones.
and if federal assholes were'nt enough ,
New York City Administrative Code
Section 27-4030 , Manufacture prohibited
It shall be unlawful to manufacture
electric fuses, safety fuses, blasting caps or explosives in the city.
cheer up
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail , but a really true friend
will be sitting there right next to you saying " Damn , we fucked up "
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Jimbo Jones
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" Damn , we fucked up "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QHOQlKgjA
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Rosco Bodine
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I have very carefully read the regulations before, as years ago I passed the background check and at a particular time paid the excessive license fees
(which are a tax just in case anyone has any illusions about ATF motives, and that what they are is indeed tax collectors primarily, not at all just
safety or security officers) . There definitely are routine activities and work for which a license
or permit would be needed, along with the "supervision" which is attendant to
"being engaged in the business of manufacture" and other designated activities
for which licenses or permits are required. There are several exemptions which
do apply to private and personal pursuit of hobby or scientific interests
and activities including research and experimentation with energetic materials which do not come under the ATF umbrella of regulation, along with
specific other governmental activity exemptions which are explicitly stated. Not a small consideration is that having a license involves two
non-trivial considerations
which are the expense of the license combined with a waiver of rights for private property searches, which is what the "inspections" for safety
regulations compliance and bookeeping and reporting requirements, which are prudent for
activities involving commercial quantities of energetic materials ....but would be
ridiculous impositions upon most individuals handling trivial quantities of energetic materials associated with hobby or experimental activities. The
place where an individual could run afoul of the law would seem to be when the activity would be routine enough to constitute being "engaged in the
business" of that pursuit,
particularly where the storage quantities, transportation, and uses would be
a concern for public safety. And there would also be an obvious issue if there
was a use of the materials for purposes that require permits or if there was a
use of the materials otherwise for illegal purposes. There may be a fine line
drawn in the wording of the regulations, but it is there none the less, and I do not read there anything to say that the energetic materials
themselves or their
possession by any of the persons not in a prohibited class is unlawful. So it
is definitely not a crime in and of itself to merely possess an energetic or explosive material. These are not "banned substances" as if they were
on the same level as narcotics ....that is to say the ATF is not the DEA,
and the personal possession of a keg of powder or other energetic materials
is simply not comparable to the other matter. There is a kind of "paranoia"
or hysteria which seems to permeate the scene involving any "hobby interest"
related to pyrotechnics or energetics, and a whole lot of misinformation, bullshit
really that is published about this topic, similarly as is a lot of bullshit generally
associated with second amendment related issues. I grew up with firearms
and other things sporting and military, and never had any issues with law
enforcement about such things. Surely there are cases of people having conflicts with the authorities, where overzealous bureaucrats have acted like
tyrants, but probably the story on most of those cases where someone ran afoul of the law,
they were doing something stupid that led to their problems and they invited
the troubles they got.
P.S. Here's a novel thought ....instead of publishing ignorance and misinformation while making the false representation that it is "knowledge"
and/or "advice",
I really wish that such smart folks would discern the difference between what they think and what they know,
and have a little reservation about stating for facts things without any qualification .....when those "facts" aren't so.
A less sensitive way of putting that wish would be for me to say that I really do wish that people who only think they know what they are talking
about would STFU until they are more sure that their thoughts and more certain knowledge coincide. That much reservation would sure cut down on the
level of crap on the web.
I expect that many persons would personally resent and take exception with libelous inferences by anyone that they are a criminal as opposed to being
a scientist or hobbyist.
BTW this is the Energetic Materials section intended for discussion of "the theory, preparation, and initiation of energetic materials" and I frankly
don't know why lately there seems to be such a broad interpretation of what that means, to allow a pretext of "safety with energetic materials" to be
used as a soapbox in furtherance of a narc perspective on law and lab safety instead of good science.
If political commentary is allowed then permit me to observe a fact that tax collectors and regulators can turn any city or any state or country into
a shithole where nobody wants to live and several hundred thousand recent emigrants leaving the big apple for freetown anywhere have voted with their
feet taking their tax dollars with them .....just like everybody else so offended should do as well.
[Edited on 5-3-2010 by Rosco Bodine]
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Bert
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Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
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| Quote: | (quote)
Recognize that creating or possesing energetic materials is against the law in the USA and many other nations. |
In the US, federal regulations cover commerce, storage and transport. "Not in commerce", if your energetics are not stored (even overnight), not taken
off your property and not used criminaly, you have only your state and local regulations to contend with. Which is a whole 'nother can of worms.
The single best piece of advice I can give as far as hobbyist legal hazzards is not to piss off your neighbors.
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hissingnoise
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Hi Bert, it's nice to see you posting again - it's been a fair while. . .
When it comes to neighbours, knowing how far they can be pushed is useful.
Of course that means going out of your way to be friendly and being extra helpful but it can make the difference in the long run.
OMG, I sound cold and calculating?
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Bert
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Thanks- Been very busy, and mostly away from desktop and land lines. You could go blind trying to follow this forum on an iPhone.
I note E&W forum has been permanently expunged?
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Rich_Insane
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There are a lot of stupid people out there playing with energetic materials. I myself haven't gone into any yet because black powder is expensive to
make and other energetics require mildly expensive reagents.... But I kind of doubt that RDX is less sensitive than ANFO. From what I've heard, it
needs a certain type of primary charge to go off. Also is PETN and ETN really that sensitive? I've only seen it go off after extensive heating, even
though ETN is like a solid version of nitroglycerine.
A good idea is to avoid mixing metals with energetics unless you know that it's OK. A friend of mine blew his friend's arm off
because they foolishly mixed black powder and Mg powder in a metal pipe.
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Rosco Bodine
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"Playing" is not really the smartest thing to be doing with potentially very dangerous things of many different kinds ... and kids who feel like they
just gotta play should stick with stuff that has less potential to cause death or injury.
There is a nearly inevitable immaturity that applies even to young drivers use
of automobiles and a lot of death and destruction is the end result of "playing"
with all sorts of things where a sane situational awareness regarding real danger
should be sobering to the next "kiddie invincible" who is otherwise "playing chicken" with the undertaker and the cemetary ....just for thrills.
Doing stupid
things can get any person killed any day, regardless of age ....so it isn't really a
survival oriented mentality to tempt fate. The grim reaper never checked anybodys date of birth, IQ or life experience, and then exempted them from
being worm food for being somehow unqualified.
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hissingnoise
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And something of a mystery - PhrixusScience is a putative heir-apparent but they're down now with spam/hacker troubles. . .
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quicksilver
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It (E&W) is gone permanently but not because of trouble. I think the guy just had to many real work priorities and it probably cost a bit to keep
that thing up in both $ and time. Some of the guys there are trying to get a board going with those who had an interest. Is " PhrixusScience", the new
one?
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franklyn
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Don't think it can't happen to you.
Unexpected results even with known preparations is an indication of
potential hazard. Being disrespectful of energetic materials can kill you.
Mishap at an Explosives R&D Laboratory
http://pbma.nasa.gov/docs/public/pbma/images/msm/10_16_06.pd...
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hissingnoise
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This shows how, when working with explosives any momentary lapse can be fatal.
The technician(s) well knew that metal tools shouldn't be used, yet a metal scoop (provided) was used.
This kind of accident can happen to anyone. . .
Actually franklyn, they seem to have been victims of very poor luck but a wrong decision *was* made!
[Edited on 17-3-2010 by hissingnoise]
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-=HeX=-
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Well. In my time as an experimenter, I have made many a silly mistake.
I am neither proud, nor ashamed, of my errors. I merely acknowledge that they happened, and tell others so they can learn.
Recently, I was 'playing' with flash mixes. I had a small homemade 'glove-box' purged with N2 and was 'reducing the particle size' of small shards of
Lithium foil using a small diamond file.
So I use the diaper method and, inside the box, mix 250mg of Li:KMnO4 with 70% KMnO4, affix it to the bottom of a coke can, and fuse it.
Then, I remove it from the box, after unsealing it.
What happens, but sparks FLY. Some Li went aerosolic or something and flashed. The mix on the 'floor' of the box ignited. Somehow, the tiny charge in
my hand was OK. My hands were OK, I was wearing welding gloves.
The power of the mix was IMMENSE. Poor cola can bottom never knew WHAT hit it... Completely penetrated, but different to the effects a HE charge has,
as the cut was not clean.
Then, there is the infamous event when I was 16, and had that 'I am invincible, I am alive' feeling. Early that year, a gram or so of AP, a big
crystal, went off near glassware. I was fragged in the leg. Minor, but painful. Within a few months, in a bout of IDIOCY, I was in hospital after a
foolishly made 20g charge went off VERY close to my hand.
That was STUPIDITY.
Shrapnel, even plastic, fucking HURTS. Third degree burns are NO JOKE. Nerve damage will bite you in the ass later.
Nowadays, I cannot shoot properly on cold days, cos the nerves in my trigger finger are damaged and refuse to work on cold days. I have a missing bit
of fingertip as a memento, along with some unsightly scarring.
These days, all energetics should be on a small scale, until the 'Blasts' with secondaries and such. i.e. Testing blasting caps, etc.
Keep phones, etc out OF THE LAB.
If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: |
The power of the mix was IMMENSE. Poor cola can bottom never knew WHAT hit it... Completely penetrated, |
IMMENSE power, Hex? Coke can bottom PENETRATED?
What are you talking about?
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-=HeX=-
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Confined Lithium-KMnO4 flash. AS a few of us know (Carbonfiend...) some exotic flash mixes behave a BIT like primaries, except with less 'brisance'.
Those same flash mixes are the kind of 'Fulminating powder' mixes that are INSANELY sensitive. I was shocked, I expected more a 'pitting' of the steel
bottom of the can, rather than an arpeture, albeit banana peeled, to be formed.
I was SHOCKED. I was merely including that so nobody will underestimate the sheer power of oxidizer-reducer mixes when you get em 'right'. At any
rate, it is NOT one I an trying again, as making it musta aged me by ten years!
If you give a man a match he will be warm for a moment. Set him alight and he will be warm for the rest of his life.
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grndpndr
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine |
If political commentary is allowed then permit me to observe a fact that tax collectors and regulators can turn any city or any state or country into
a shithole where nobody wants to live and several hundred thousand recent emigrants leaving the big apple for freetown anywhere have voted with their
feet taking their tax dollars with them .....just like everybody else so offended should do as well.
[Edited on 5-3-2010 by Rosco Bodine] |
If only that were possible.But who would be left to pay for the federally mandated utopia envisioned by our big brother government?(entitlement
population derived taxes?)Voting with ones feet leads to Socialist canada(the US 10 yrs now)or that paradise of civil rights/political freedom and std
of living Mexico.(Another probable US future,you-yours owned by China)
Oh yes,back ON TOPIC safety first!
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