driedfloral
Harmless
Posts: 12
Registered: 22-1-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
anhydrous ammonia
I am guessing since lye is compatable with ammonium nitrate it would also be compatable with ammonium hydroxide or janitorial ammonia. If one were
wanting to reduce something with say sodium metal and anhydrous ammonia wouldn't it be possible to just dissolve x amount of lye in x amount of
janitorial ammonia do the math and add x coulombs to the solution and all -OH would be gone from solution since all the O2 would escape from the (+)
terminal and all the H2 (from the -OH ion only not from the ammonia) would escape from the (-) terminal. It seems this would be much easier than
making molten table salt, dealing with chlorine and still needing to dry the ammonia. Would this work for someone if they wanted to do something
legal with it?
|
|
|
driedfloral
Harmless
Posts: 12
Registered: 22-1-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
no sparks of course
you wouldn't want any sparks of course around that nasty NH3 stuff. And it would still eat your eyeballs out of your skull w/o proper ventilation.
|
|
|
hissingnoise
International Hazard
Posts: 3940
Registered: 26-12-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pulverulescent!
|
|
| Quote: | | you wouldn't want any sparks of course around that nasty NH3 stuff. And it would still eat your eyeballs out of your skull w/o proper ventilation.
|
I am guessing that you don't know enough about ammonia to experiment with it for any purpose, legal or illegal.
|
|
|
smuv
National Hazard
Posts: 842
Registered: 2-5-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Jingoistic
|
|
you will end up oxidizing the ammonia at the anode as well as the -OH. I have no idea what you mean by "compatible" but ammonium nitrate reacts with
lye to produce sodium nitrate and ammonia.
"Titanium tetrachloride…You sly temptress." --Walter Bishop
|
|
|
Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Manic Expressive
|
|
Yes I am a bit confused as well. What is the point of all of this and what do you mean by using molten table salt for Ammonia production? As SMVU
already said NaOH and NH3NO3 are not compatible but form NH3 and water. This should be run thru NaOH then Calcium oxide to remove latent water vapor
from the gas.
I have a pretty recent thread that details abit of anhydrous ammonia production to form a complex with Lithium but I would not suggest you attempt it
else chance suffering chemical burns or worse.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
|
|
|
thereelstory
Harmless
Posts: 41
Registered: 18-1-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
here is some simple advice:
Ammonia is legal to purchase. if you are legally utilizing ammonia, there is no reason you cant just lease a tank and buy product. it has been my
experience ammonia is only a few hundred dollare for a tall tank. in my case i am doing some hydro technology experiments. ammonia has alot of
promise as an alternative fuel to power vehicles.
it is the simplest safest quickest most direct way of acquiring what you need, chief>
ThErEeLsToRy.
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8027
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
Making gaseous ammonia can be done by adding solid NaOH to concentrated ammonia solution (e.g. 25% NH3). When this is done, gas escapes from the
solution, while NaOH dissolves. The solubility of NH3 decreases with increasing concentration of NaOH. Of course, the gaseous ammonia, produced in
this way, still contains a little water vapor, so you need to dry the gas if your reaction really needs anhydrous ammonia.
Another easy way of making ammonia gas is mixing an ammonium salt (e.g. NH4Cl or NH4NO3 or (NH4)2SO4) with a slight excess of solid NaOH and then add
just a few drops of water to get the reaction starting. Quite some ammonia can be produced in this way, which escapes as gas. With heating, the yield
can be further improved. Again, drying of the gas may be necessary, depending on what it is used for.
|
|
|
fractional
Hazard to Self
Posts: 74
Registered: 29-8-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Alternatively one can heat urea to roughly 135 degC (its melting point) at which point it releases NH3, forming biuret in the act. You'll need 2 mols
of urea for one mol of NH3, however, using dry urea will give dry NH3.
|
|
|
Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Manic Expressive
|
|
Considering many things can sensitize ammonia nitrate causing an explosion as I understand it im not sure this would be the best method for producing
NH3.
Woelen hit the nail on the head with using the Ammonia salts to generate the ammonia. This is by far the easiest to use method if you ask me.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
|
|
|
fractional
Hazard to Self
Posts: 74
Registered: 29-8-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The ammonia salts and urea, respectively, are OTC and dirt-cheap, when buying in bulk. I have taken the prices from the Acros-catalogue and compared
them with the (theoretical) molar efficiency for producing NH3 (1 mol NH3/mol for NH4Cl and NH4NO3, 2 mol NH3/mol for (NH4)2SO4, 0.5 mol NH3/mol for
urea).
Ammonium chloride is cheapest with about 1.4 Eur/mol NH3, followed by ammonium nitrate and urea with both about 1.8 Eur/mol NH3. Ammonium sulfate is
least attractive for about 2.1 Eur/mol NH3.
...my point being that I guess there is no "best" option, the local prices for the basic products are an important consideration and the absence of
H2O in e.g. the "urea-method" could be another one...
|
|
|
entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fissile
|
|
| Quote: | | I have taken the prices from the Acros-catalogue and compared them with the (theoretical) molar efficiency for producing NH3 |
Ammonium sulfate is available at the hardware store for much less than Acros is asking. A quick recrystallization, while not
essential, gives very nice starting material for NH3 production.
|
|
|
driedfloral
Harmless
Posts: 12
Registered: 22-1-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
automtic smartass?
to MOST of you not ALL does knowing more about chemistry than someone else make you an automatic smartass? can anyone answer a
hypothetical question w/o acting like a complete jerk? I was just wondering because everytime I've read any posts on any forum and someone knows more
than someone else the more educated person (I guess with an ego problem) has to talk down like an asshole to the person asking a SIMPLE question, but
THANK YOU to all that were not talking down to me. I don't remember college chemistry class turning me into an asshole that talks down on anybody
that didn't happen to take the same course I did, and I imagine I know enough about ammonia to mess with it, check to see what it is compatible with
before combining the 2, use a fumehood, wear protective clothing and keep sparks away, because from my understanding anhydrous ammonia is combustible
I should look in my NIOSH book and see before I try anything and I know H2 and O2 are combustable so why not keep the sparks away is why I put that in
my second post on the subject, sorry for asking a question to all you jerks out there and to the ones that are polite THANK YOU
yes I know mixing ammonia salts with lye makes ammonia, I was just posting a hypothetical way of going around the problem of someone trying to get Na
metal and anhydrous ammonia and someone said melt table salt and add DC to it to get rid of the Cl-
and I thought why not just get rid of the water in NH4OH- NaOH to have Na+ in NH3
|
|
|
driedfloral
Harmless
Posts: 12
Registered: 22-1-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
oh what I meant by assuming lye and ammonium hydroxide being compatible is since ammonium nitrate and lye make ammonium hydroxide (or for the
smartasses ammonia gas and water sorry for the mistake chop my head off) there is probably lye left over occasionally and it doesn't explode or make
any other toxic gases other than NH3
|
|
|
entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fissile
|
|
| Quote: | | keep sparks away, because from my understanding anhydrous ammonia is combustible |
Only in the books.
[Edited on 26-1-2010 by entropy51]
[Edited on 26-1-2010 by entropy51]
[Edited on 26-1-2010 by entropy51]
|
|
|
driedfloral
Harmless
Posts: 12
Registered: 22-1-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
thanks entropy, one can never be too careful though
|
|
|
Swede
Hazard to Others
Posts: 491
Registered: 4-9-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
OT, driedfloral, how was the poppy pod crop this last fall? Have you "viewed" some nice arrangements?
A crushed Vitamin C tablet helps in the extraction of the goodies.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
