Aqua_Fortis_100%
Hazard to Others
Posts: 302
Registered: 24-12-2006
Location: Brazil
Member Is Offline
Mood: †
|
|
HCl from SiO2/NaCl/water/heat
There is a time (about 1-2 years) that I have look a thread where a person talk about SiO2 reacting with NaCl and water vapour forming HCl and
silicate , unfortunately I didnt found that thread.
But searching somewhat I was able to find a patent (attached) confirming such process that may be interesting on future since at least here they are
trying to replace good OTC muriatic acid for trash, mix of several acids (H3PO4, HF, sulfamic acid, etc..) and full of various other additives ,
detergents, etc..
So old methods becoming "new" alternatives...
The patent claims that CaCl2 is more effective in reaction than NaCl, although NaCl is everywhere and generaly much cheaper than CaCl2, so it can be a
very good alternative for home manufacturer..
Have anyone attempted such process?
Thanks..
[Edited on 28-2-2009 by Aqua_Fortis_100%]
Attachment: CA1112425A1.pdf (352kB)
This file has been downloaded 1342 times
"The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant."
|
|
|
Ebao-lu
Unregistered
Posts: N/A
Registered: N/A
Member Is Offline
|
|
At least, it is possible to calculate the min. tepmerature at which the reaction
H2O + 2NaCl + SiO2 = 2HCl + Na2SiO3
can proceed in theory. Unfortunately i can't find right now the thermodinamical data of these 5 compounds to calculate.
|
|
|
kclo4
National Hazard
Posts: 916
Registered: 11-12-2004
Location:
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I bet it is very high and not worth it.
I think the best alternative to hydrochloric acid would be to go to a garden shop that sells aluminum sulfate to adjust pH in soil. This could be
mixed with NaCl, and water and distilled giving you HCl.
Al2(SO4)3 + 6NaCl = 3 Na2SO4 + 2 AlCl3
2 AlCl3 + H2O = Al2O3 + 6 HCl
You could go about making the Aluminum sulfate various ways. boiling a solution originally of NaCl, CuSo4, and Al foil will produce HCl, Na2SO4, Cu,
and Al2O3 - I believe.
err I think it is the hydroxide that would form in all of the reactions actually.. well the idea still holds 
|
|
|
chief
National Hazard
Posts: 630
Registered: 19-7-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The next electric welder with carbon-electrodes will reach any temperature ! If the discharge is immersed under the sand/NaCl-mixture, there is a
confinement, so not even any vessels needed. Then just make water/steam be present, and see how it runs !
|
|
|
byko3y
National Hazard
Posts: 721
Registered: 16-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: dooM
|
|
For those who encounters this thread and will try to perform the reaction
Al2(SO4)3 + 6NaCl = 3 Na2SO4 + 2 AlCl3
2 AlCl3 + H2O = Al2O3 + 6 HCl
it is not working without some solvent and anhydrous reagents - heating to 400°C does nothing, and at 700°C Al2(SO4)3 starts decomposing into SO2
and Al2O3. You need a water or some other solvent, so the two compounds will be liquified and contact each other. However, I have no idea about yields
when using different amounts of water as a solvent-reagent, you might be able to obtain a dillute muriatic acid by adding a lot of water, as well as a
nice stream of concentrated 50% HCl by using a minimum amount of water.
I doubt this reaction can give anhydrous AlCl3, with or without water.
And this method barely works
H2O + 2NaCl + SiO2 = 2HCl + Na2SiO3
it gives 1/3 conversion of NaCl after few hours at 900-1000°C
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by kclo4  | I bet it is very high and not worth it.
I think the best alternative to hydrochloric acid would be to go to a garden shop that sells aluminum sulfate to adjust pH in soil. This could be
mixed with NaCl, and water and distilled giving you HCl.
Al2(SO4)3 + 6NaCl = 3 Na2SO4 + 2 AlCl3
2 AlCl3 + H2O = Al2O3 + 6 HCl
You could go about making the Aluminum sulfate various ways. boiling a solution originally of NaCl, CuSo4, and Al foil will produce HCl, Na2SO4, Cu,
and Al2O3 - I believe.
err I think it is the hydroxide that would form in all of the reactions actually.. well the idea still holds |
Aluminium sulphate can be dehydrated thermally.
Intimately mixing the anhydrous product with an excess of a high boiling anhydrous ionic chloride (like NaCl) and strongly heating may indeed yield
AlCl3 vapour, because AlCl3 sublimes easily at about 180 C.
So Al2(SO4)3(s) + 6 NaCl(s) <===> 2 AlCl3(g) + 3 Na2SO4(s) would be pulled to the right by the escaping aluminium chloride. Condense it in a
cooler part of the apparatus. Worth trying, IMO...
[Edited on 28-5-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
byko3y
National Hazard
Posts: 721
Registered: 16-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: dooM
|
|
My fault, I forgot to mention that my aluminium sulfate was completely dehydrated before the reaction - otherwise I would not be able to heat the
mixture to 400°C without hydrolysis of AlCl3 by water. Not more than traces of AlCl were detected.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
My simple preparation of AlCl3: Reduction of anh. ZnCl2 with Al powder:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=30150&...
But it would be a ridiculous way to prepare HCl (by hydrolysing the AlCl3)...
[Edited on 29-5-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
